[14:00] <pcman> hi all
[14:00] <pcman> anyone here tried pcmanfm 0.9.9 + libfm 0.16
[14:00] <Unit193> Howdy
[14:00] <pcman> 0.1.16 I mean
[14:01] <jmarsden> pcman: Not yet, will probably try this weekend...
[14:02] <pcman> jmarsden: ok.
[14:02] <pcman> jmarsden: the new tarball released by brother has some minor issues.
[14:02] <pcman> jmarsden: a new tarball for libfm is planned.
[14:03] <jmarsden> Great :)  Did brother post what the issues are to the mailing list?
[14:03] <pcman> jmarsden: no. it's just the generated API docs are not included.
[14:04] <jmarsden> Oh, OK.  Sounds like a quick edit to the dist target would fix that.
[14:04] <pcman> jmarsden: actually nobody has the time to write the API docs. So it's simply a function list at the moment.
[14:04] <pcman> jmarsden: it's fixed, along with another compatibility fix for gtk 2.20.x
[14:05] <jmarsden> Sounds like good progress :)
[14:06] <pcman> jmarsden: at least there should be a relatively stable tarball release.
[14:06] <pcman> jmarsden: the last one was in 2010.
[14:07] <jmarsden> :)  Yes, having a recent tarball is a good thing.  Maybe now we can try to do them more often, maybe every 3 months or so?
[14:08] <pcman> jmarsden: depends on time available.
[14:08] <jmarsden> Understood.  Are you still studying like crazy for your medical exams?  Or is that done now?
[14:09] <pcman> jmarsden: this is always the nightmare of an amateur programmer.
[14:09] <pcman> jmarsden: my exam was on sep 24 and oct 16.
[14:10] <jmarsden> OK... I hope all that goes well.  When you pass them, you can /nick drpcman :)
[14:11] <pcman> jmarsden: I'm a medical doctor now.
[14:11] <pcman> jmarsden: that exam is for internal medicine specialty.
[14:12] <jmarsden> Oh, OK, so the exams are "further" qualifications... OK.
[14:12] <pcman> jmarsden: yes
[14:12] <pcman> jmarsden: that's why I disappear sometimes.
[14:13] <jmarsden> Don't worry about it too much.  Hopefully at some point you will find someone else to work with you on libfm/pcmanfm more regularly.
[14:14] <pcman> jmarsden: actually I want to rewrite lxpanel.
[14:14] <pcman> jmarsden: based on gtk3.
[14:15] <pcman> jmarsden: I already have a mockup in my head, but I don't have the time. :(
[14:15] <jmarsden> That makes sense, but might be quite a bit of work... yes.  Do you expect to have more time after Oct 16?
[14:15] <pcman> jmarsden: only if I pass that exam, I think.
[14:16] <pcman> jmarsden: fixing existing mess in lxpanel and port it to gtk3 at the same time is even a more time-consuming job than a rewrite.
[14:16] <jgratero> I have sort of a confusion with Lubuntu sound management
[14:16] <pcman> jmarsden: a well-planned re-design will be better.
[14:16] <jmarsden> pcman: OK.  Then study hard now, and leave lxpanel alone for now, come back to it in October.
[14:16] <jgratero> Good morning to everyone
[14:16] <pcman> jmarsden: I'm worry about lubuntu.
[14:17] <pcman> jmarsden: the next release might have mixed gtk2/gtk3 apps.
[14:17] <pcman> jmarsden: the final result, as we can expect, is a broken desktop.
[14:17] <jmarsden> jgratero: Good morning.  Can you describe your question more clearly.
[14:18] <jgratero> Well, the thing is, I have to use audacious to control the volume of the OS
[14:18] <jmarsden> pcman: Yes, that could be bad.  But worry won't change it :)
[14:18] <pcman> jmarsden: can't we postpond the release?
[14:18] <jgratero> the volumen control on LX panel is not the main volume control
[14:18] <pcman> jmarsden: having a very broken release is not a good idea.
[14:19] <jgratero> from what I can gather
[14:19] <jmarsden> jgratero: alsamixer doesn't do it for you, from the terminal?
[14:19] <jgratero> let me check
[14:19] <jmarsden> pcman: We have to stick to the Ubuntu schedule I think.
[14:19] <pcman> jmarsden: what a disaster.
[14:20] <pcman> jmarsden: having gtk2/gtk3 loaded at the same time doubles resource usage, I think.
[14:20] <pcman> jmarsden: in addition, some modules might not work.
[14:20] <pcman> jmarsden: for example, im modules.
[14:20] <jmarsden> pcman: Do we have a list of which apps are likely to be broken?  Might be good to at least get a list so we can prioritize which ones to fix first?
[14:20] <pcman> jmarsden: lxpanel, pcmanfm will definitely be gtk2.
[14:20] <jgratero> it does
[14:21] <pcman> jmarsden: porting lxpanel is more a work than a rewrite.
[14:21] <pcman> jmarsden: IM modules might not work. theme engines might not work.
[14:21] <pcman> jmarsden: xsettings part of lxsession might not work.
[14:21] <pcman> jmarsden: lxappearance might not work since it only works for one of gtk2 or gtk3.
[14:22] <jgratero> it does
[14:22] <jmarsden> jgratero: OK.  That's what I have always used in Lubuntu for sound anyway.  But pretty, but it works.
[14:23] <jgratero> Ok, no problem, thanks for the reply!
[14:23] <jmarsden> pcman: That doesn't sound very happy... is gilir aware of this?
[14:23] <jmarsden> jgratero: You're welcome.
[14:23] <pcman> jmarsden: I don't have time to talk about this yet.
[14:23] <jmarsden> :) OK...
[14:23] <pcman> jmarsden: gtk3 is too huge a change to be completed in 6 months with such few devs.
[14:23] <pcman> jmarsden: no kidding.
[14:24] <pcman> jmarsden: this is worse than qt3/qt4 case IMHO.
[14:24] <jmarsden> Bad timing that the GTK3 change happened in the cycle we finally get Lubuntu officially into Ubuntu... but I think we just have to do what we can.
[14:24] <pcman> jmarsden: yes
[14:25] <pcman> jmarsden: but having a broken release actually scares potential users.
[14:25] <jmarsden> Yes... I wonder how Xubuntu are doing on the GTK3 front?  They may have similar issues...
[14:25] <pcman> jmarsden: we got ++ because of official status, but got another -- due to a broken release.
[14:25] <pcman> jmarsden: I'm sure they will.
[14:26] <pcman> jmarsden: xfce doesn;t have many devs, either.
[14:26] <pcman> jmarsden: and some of their stuff still use gtk2, IIRC.
[14:26] <jmarsden> In one sense that could help us, we can say "look, it is not just us having these issues" ...
[14:26] <pcman> jmarsden: windows 7 has no such issues.
[14:26] <pcman> jmarsden: look, windows never has this kind of issue. LInux is for geeks.
[14:27] <pcman> jmarsden: I don't want to hear that.
[14:27] <kvarley> Windows 7 has many issues
[14:27] <pcman> jmarsden: but that's what a new user might say.
[14:27] <pcman> kvarley: much less then what we have now.
[14:27] <jmarsden> Agreed.  Well, Vista had all kinds of issues when it first arrived... and Win7 won't even begin to run on the kind of hardware folks try Lubuntu on...
[14:28] <pcman> kvarley: the most important thing is, programs written for windows 95 still runs today.
[14:28] <kvarley> pcman: I disagree. However Windows is the most common and has a lot of developer support so that's why people can use it.
[14:28] <pcman> kvarley: programmers don't need to do the silly porting wasting all of their time just to fix broken pieces here and there.
[14:29] <pcman> kvarley: consider spending the time we used for fixing the broken compatability to create new features instead.
[14:29] <jmarsden> pcman: Are you aware how many man hours commercial software places spend migrating their code from one version of Windows to the next?  It's huge!  It is just all hidden from the average end user...
[14:29] <kvarley> pcman: True. A large part of it is attitude though. Publishers do what gets them the most money so they just develop for Windblows.
[14:29] <pcman> jmarsden, kvarley: for large commercial apps, that's true.
[14:29] <pcman> jmarsden, kvarley: for smaller ones, no porting is needed.
[14:30] <pcman> jmarsden, kvarley: I wrote windows programs before I learn LInux.
[14:30] <kvarley> pcman: Indie developers need support, they get it from me. xD
[14:30] <pcman> the programs I developed 10 years ago still runs flawlessly now.
[14:30] <jmarsden> pcman: Right; and small apps in Linux written in Python with the WX toolkit, say, work fine with no porting effort... :)
[14:30] <kvarley> pcman: I wrote Java stuff. Now python.
[14:30] <pcman> jmarsden: wx will have big problems migrating to gtk3.
[14:31] <pcman> jmarsden: it still has some code for gtk1 IIRC.
[14:31] <jmarsden> pcman: But once the lib ports, the apps should run unchanged, I think?
[14:32] <kvarley> Is the wx toolkit preinstalled on lubuntu as a python module?
[14:32] <jmarsden> I don't think it is preinstalled, but you can apt-get it.
[14:32] <pcman> jmarsden: that's not the case.
[14:32] <kvarley> And do you know if it comes with the windows one?
[14:33] <pcman> jmarsden: I made patches for wx in the past.
[14:33] <kvarley> I've been doing pyGtk while comes preinstalled.
[14:33] <pcman> jmarsden: even today, some widgets in wx are not yet native ones.
[14:33] <pcman> jmarsden: the most notably ones are tree views and list controls.
[14:34] <kvarley> pcman: That's wx though, the gtk equivalents are native, are they not?
[14:34] <pcman> jmarsden: wx is modeled after MFC on windows and try to fit that model with other toolkit.
[14:34] <pcman> kvarley: wxgtk has some non-native widgets.
[14:35] <jmarsden> pcman: Yes.  So will WX-using apps break, or just look a little old-fashioned in GTK3?
[14:35] <pcman> kvarley: gtk2 support is not complete but now we have gtk3.
[14:35] <pcman> jmarsden: not sure about this, but they should have some powerful devs.
[14:36] <pcman> jmarsden: I'm not sure what will happen, but I'm more pessimistic on this.
[14:36] <jmarsden> OK.  I suspect that in general, there will be some "workarounds" early in GTK3 usage, but stuff will be made to work somehow... which is what I am hoping we can do for LXDE too.
[14:36] <pcman> jmarsden: mixing gtk2/gtk3 apps is inevitable this time.
[14:37] <kvarley> What toolkit does LUbuntu use? Like Ubuntu uses Gnome...So, what does Lubuntu use?
[14:37] <pcman> jmarsden: the biggest problem is the change in input and painting.
[14:37] <pcman> jmarsden: xinput2 brings totally different input handling.
[14:38] <jmarsden> kvarley: LXDE is the Lubuntu desktop environment, GTK is the library underneath that.
[14:38] <pcman> jmarsden: and the painting and theming stuff are totally incompatible with older gtk.
[14:39] <jmarsden> pcman: And no compatibility wrapper library stuff has been done?  That's not good.  Well, we are coders not magicians, there is only so much we can do :)
[14:39] <head_victim> pcman & jmarsden - apart from magically becoming an experienced dev overnight is there anything I can do to assist in these efforts? Get the word out for some more help?
[14:39] <pcman> jmarsden: no, it's not quite possible.
[14:39] <kvarley> jmarsden: So if I wanted to develop a gui application I should still use pygtk?
[14:39] <pcman> jmarsden: I previously wanted to do one, but after I read the API doc, I don't think this is possible.
[14:40] <jmarsden> kvarley: Yes, I think that's a sane choice.
[14:40] <pcman> kvarley: pygtk will be less supported.
[14:40] <jmarsden> Will there by a pygtk3 or something??
[14:40] <pcman> kvarley: people are moving to pygobject + introspection now.
[14:40] <kvarley> pcman: Than what? PyQt?
[14:40] <pcman> kvarley: no, their new toy.
[14:40] <pcman> kvarley: happy porting!
[14:40] <kvarley> pcman: Oh ok, new modules I take it ?
[14:41] <pcman> kvarley: new way to develop gtk program in python.
[14:41] <pcman> kvarley: of course, it's an incompatible change.
[14:41] <pcman> kvarley: http://www.pygtk.org/
[14:41] <pcman> kvarley: see this "New users wishing to develop Python applications using GTK+ are recommended to use the GObject-Introspection features available in PyGObject."
[14:42] <pcman> kvarley: so I think there won't be pygtk3.
[14:42] <kvarley> pcman: Ah ok, damn it I only just learned pygtk D:
[14:45] <pcman> kvarley: I know pygtk only, too.
[14:45] <pcman> kvarley: having too many choices can be annoying, especially when your choice is deprecated by upstream.
[14:46] <pcman> kvarley: that's what I feel atm.
[14:47] <pcman> head_victim: are you there?
[14:47] <head_victim> pcman: yep
[14:47] <pcman> head_victim: do you know how to use glade?
[14:47] <pcman> head_victim: I got a nice job for you.
[14:47] <pcman> head_victim: no knowledge about programming is required.
[14:48] <kvarley> Is it weird that I prefer to code my GUI's rather than design them with a tool like Glade?
[14:48] <head_victim> pcman: I can try to find out how to use it
[14:49] <pcman> kvarley: I like to code my GUI, too.
[14:49] <pcman> head_victim: it's a gui editor.
[14:49] <kvarley> pcman: More control and flexibility. Plus you know exactly how it's put together so you know how it behaves.
[14:49] <pcman> head_victim: the aim is to make all dialogs in lxde applications Gnome HIG compliant.
[14:49] <pcman> head_victim: http://developer.gnome.org/hig-book/3.0/
[14:50] <pcman> http://developer.gnome.org/hig-book/3.0/design-window.html.zh_TW
[14:51] <pcman> Gnome HIG is a good thing for UI.
[14:51] <head_victim> pcman: checking the links now
[14:52] <pcman> this makes apps have consistent look and behavior.
[14:52] <head_victim> pcman: looks like something I could do if I know how to get and change the dialogue components
[14:53] <pcman> head_victim: yes, you can see how to use glade.
[14:54] <pcman> jmarsden: BTW, I got a new idea for menu editing.
[14:54] <pcman> jmarsden: I want to do it in a non-xdg-compliant way.
[14:54] <pcman> jmarsden: the xdg menu spec is really horrible for menu editing.
[14:55] <head_victim> pcman: so glade makes obtaining the dialogues that need checking easy?
[14:55] <head_victim> That's the part of the process I'm concerned about
[14:55] <pcman> head_victim: that's an editor for gtk ui files.
[14:55] <head_victim> pcman: yeah, sorry I haven't slept in 24 hours so maybe not making sense. Where do I find the files that you want me to edit? Or did you want me to create them?
[14:56] <jmarsden> pcman: Well... hmmm... wanting to be non-compliant is interesting :)  But I'd say get your exams over first :)
[14:56] <pcman> head_victim: then go to sleep.
[14:56] <pcman> jmarsden: true.
[14:56] <pcman> jmarsden: I think about this for months.
[14:56] <pcman> jmarsden: say, if the spec is good, why there is no good menu editor for so many years?
[14:56] <pcman> jmarsden: because the spec is poor.
[14:57] <head_victim> pcman: yep, if you want to mail me a quick details on what gtk ui files you want me to check jarednorris at ubuntu dot com  gets me.
[14:57] <pcman> jmarsden: the menu itself should be xdg compliant, but editing doesn't need to be xdg-compliant.
[14:57] <pcman> jmarsden: we can have our own file documenting how to move the items around.
[14:58] <pcman> and apply it on the xdg menu.
[14:58] <pcman> head_victim: you can see if you know how to use glade first.
[14:58] <pcman> head_victim: if that's too hard for you, we still have other things to do.
[14:59] <head_victim> Installing now
[15:00] <head_victim> Might need to install it on something newer, I only have gtk 2.8 as the latest on my desktop
[15:01]  * pcman needs to go.
[15:01] <pcman> see you all
[15:01] <head_victim> See you later
[15:01] <head_victim> Feel free to email me anytime
[15:03] <head_victim> I just can't work out if he wants me to create dialogues or bring existing ones into line with policies :/
[15:04] <jmarsden> head_victim: Learn Glade, then ask him what work he has for you to do with it :)  I strongly suspect the latter is what he is looking for.
[15:05] <head_victim> Glade looks fairly simple and mundane, kinda like wiki editing. As long as you understand what the goal is it's just a bunch of fiddlign to get it right I'd say (have played with it for 5 - 10 mins now)
[15:07] <head_victim> Anyway, bed does sound good. It's 1am. As for the glade stuff I'll have a look around for some examples to play with and see if I can manage it easily enough.
[15:07] <jmarsden> head_victim: OK, sleep.  Tutorials at http://live.gnome.org/Glade/Tutorials  may be worth a look when you wake up :)
[15:09] <head_victim> Ah I got the impression he wanted me to go through existing dialogues to check for conformity. Either way, that's a great link, cheers
[15:09] <jmarsden> head_victim: You're welcome.  Now sleep :)
[15:14] <leszek> hi
[15:15] <Unit193> Howdy
[16:03] <ActionParsnip> hey guys, is anyone using oneiric noticed the Volume lxpanel applet is missing?
[20:52] <kvarley> I installed the proprietary driver for my Nvidia ION via the Addition Drivers utility on 64-bit Lubuntu 11.04 and my brightness function keys no longer work. Any ideas?
[20:53] <kvarley> The notification still shows up but the screen doesn't dim or go brighter