[01:47] <JonathanD> Hi guys.
[02:56] <Unit193> Howdy JonathanD
[02:57] <Unit193> Cheri703: It was that, or fair + motor cross :P
[02:57] <Cheri703> hehe, good call
[02:57] <Unit193> Mod tractor pull tomorrow that I might go to also (And a demo derby sat :D:D:D )
[03:23] <ashams> hello everybody
[03:25] <ashams> I noticed that your LoCo have a Council, this idea was suggested by some of our LoCo members, I want to ask how this idea helped you Or why did you do that?
[03:25] <Unit193> Howdy ashams and welcome to the Ohio LoCo
[03:25] <ashams> Unit193: hi, thanks
[03:25] <ashams> Unit193: what you think?
[03:25] <Unit193> Sweet, what one are you from? And Cheri703 ^^ :P
[03:26] <ashams> Unit193: Egypt
[03:26] <ashams> pad.lv/~egyptlocoteam
[03:26] <Cheri703> I believe that it was moved to a council so that a. the work could be shared, b. it encourages more participation and delegation, and c. it avoids having one person trying to be "in charge" I know other teams have had people treat it as their personal kingdom, and having others helps avoid that
[03:27] <ashams> Cheri703: but wont this split your team into two layers?
[03:28] <Cheri703> not really
[03:28] <Cheri703> there are only 3 on the council, and it's not like we dictate anything, anyone can suggest anything, and people are totally free to take initiative on things. we are more here to help things go smoothly than to make official decisions and such
[03:28] <ashams> Cheri703: what new members think about this? do they have some envy on those on top?
[03:29] <Cheri703> I have no idea...I'd hope not, if they do, a. they can talk to us, and b. they can run in the next election
[03:29] <Cheri703> why would they not envy the ONE person in charge? if they would envy the 3?
[03:29] <ashams> Cheri703: :)
[03:30] <ashams> Cheri703: do you have any regulations for ppl to jump in/out and specially out?
[03:30] <Cheri703> of the council? the team? what are you asking?
[03:31] <ashams> Cheri703: sorry, I meant of the Council?
[03:31] <Cheri703> one year terms as far as I know
[03:31] <ashams> Cheri703: sorry, I didn't get what you mean?
[03:32] <Cheri703> council members serve for one year, and then we hold an election to replace them. current council members can re-run and get re-elected, but it gives the opportunity for new folks
[03:33] <ashams> Cheri703: great
[03:33] <Unit193> If they want to back out, we elect a person to fill in
[03:35] <ashams> Cheri703: do you regulate who give presentations or sessions to ppl from outside the community? I mean there can be some persons who really like to give a session but they not really qualified, do the Council have any sovereignty to say No, you can't.
[03:36] <ashams> Cheri703: I mean, Does the Council forms a governance?
[03:36] <Cheri703> Not at this point we don't/haven't
[03:37] <Cheri703> if someone wants to, but doesn't feel qualified, they'd be welcome to ask for help from the group (not just the council). help in preparing a speech or help by having someone who might be willing to do it instead
[03:39] <ashams> Cheri703: It happened in our LoCo, that someone really new, wanted to give a session by material he got from someone else and he insists to that session by himself only: It would help if the Council have governance powers in such case, do you recommend us to go ahead and give a council that power?
[03:40] <Cheri703> where did he want to give the session? and why should he not be allowed?
[03:41] <ashams> Cheri703: He is not qualified at all
[03:41] <ashams> Cheri703: :(
[03:41] <Cheri703> but what is qualified? what topic? who does he want to speak to?
[03:42] <ashams> Cheri703: Normally introduction to Ubuntu, but he wasn't even using it ;) !!!!
[03:42] <Cheri703> personally I wouldn't have a problem with it
[03:42] <ashams> Cheri703: why? How?
[03:42] <Cheri703> because it is a learning experience for him
[03:42] <Cheri703> who am I to say he can't have that?
[03:43] <Cheri703> like I was trying to get to earlier, it may depend on who he wants to talk to
[03:43] <ashams> Cheri703: outerspace!
[03:44] <Cheri703> ...?
[03:44] <ashams> Cheri703: sorry, to ppl who don't know about linux
[03:44] <Cheri703> so why would it matter? as long as he is mostly right, they will still learn something
[03:44] <ashams> Cheri703: that would be their first impression...
[03:45] <Cheri703> my first impression was my brother saying "here, boot this cd, tell me what you think next time you see me"
[03:45] <Cheri703> so...any intro is probably ok
[03:46] <Cheri703> anyway ashams, I'm not going to debate it with you. I would be perfectly fine with it, and in my opinion, forming a council for the purpose of telling people they CAN'T participate in sharing ubuntu seems very counter-intuitive
[03:47] <ashams> Cheri703: I'm not debating at all, I'm just trying to know how you really think about it, so sorry...
[03:47] <Cheri703> well, I'm just saying, I've stated my opinion, I get yours, I just think it's a non-issue
[03:49] <ashams> Cheri703: Yeah, it's really a non-issue. I was just trying to get your full idea. Thank you very much
[03:49] <ashams> Cheri703: Thank you for helping me :)
[03:49] <Cheri703> yup :)
[03:50] <ashams> Unit193: Thank You :)
[03:50] <Unit193> ashams: Sure, I just knew who to call! :P
[03:51] <Unit193> Cheri703: Thanks, you would/are better at that than I
[03:56] <ashams> Cheers Ohio LoCo, Greetings from Egypt LoCo team, best wishes.....
[04:26] <Unit193> Welcome back Mr Bios
[04:35] <BiosElement> Thanks Unit
[14:03] <thafreak> Morning Ohio
[14:04] <Unit193> Howdy, it already feels like afternoon :P
[14:05] <thafreak> well...i guess it kind of is....i'm just rolling into work now...
[14:05] <thafreak> very long mornings some days
[14:05]  * Unit193 has been up since yesterday
[14:09] <thafreak> any reason?
[14:09] <thafreak> you stay up playing a game...working on homework or a project? Or just not a fan of sleep?
[14:10] <Unit193> Had to do something the next morning or somebody will whine and complain and I don't do mornings :P
[14:11] <thafreak> oh....I've done that many times
[14:11] <thafreak> I tend to still get like 2-3 hours of sleep...unless I'm still working when they come in to work the next morning...
[14:12] <thafreak> Like re-build a server over night, and still be setting things up when people stroll into work in the morning...that sucks
[14:12] <paultag> fail!
[14:12] <paultag> 03:56 < ashams> Cheers Ohio LoCo, Greetings from Egypt LoCo team, best wishes.....
[14:12] <thafreak> it was the hardware that failed....
[14:12] <paultag> awwww :)
[14:12]  * Unit193 might be borg
[14:13] <paultag> I love the borg
[14:13] <thafreak> and FYI, for anyone building raid storage, buy an extra drive or two to have around
[14:13] <paultag> I want to be borg
[14:13] <paultag> imagine if I could sync my brain with other brains
[14:13] <paultag> I could talk about stuff and things
[14:13] <thafreak> cause if one drive fails 3 years down the road, you probably won't be able to buy the same drive anymore :)
[14:13] <paultag> thafreak: that's actually a good point
[14:13] <paultag> thafreak: never thought of that
[14:13] <paultag> damn
[14:14] <paultag> that's why I'm not a sysadmin
[14:14] <paultag> thafreak: so, after your little puppet clone, howsabout I get you to do some Syn work? It's so close to working >:D
[14:14] <thafreak> well, if it's soft raid...you could TECHNICALLY, replace with bigger drives, and re-build, then replace another with a bigger drive, and re-build, and eventually have a bigger array...
[14:14] <paultag> that sounds lame
[14:14] <paultag> and time consuming
[14:15] <thafreak> Actually, I'm down...I think it would go nicely with my puppet clone work :)
[14:15] <paultag> just rsync it over :)
[14:15] <paultag> thafreak: no shit? That's awesome news
[14:15] <paultag> thafreak: We've got about 5 of us on it now
[14:15] <thafreak> rsync would require a second array in place :)
[14:15] <paultag> thafreak: you'd be the 6th
[14:15] <paultag> thafreak: yeah, true, I guess :)
[14:15] <paultag> thafreak: but I don't have a sous-chef, someone who can hack without me standing over their sholder
[14:16] <paultag> I could use a solid hand on the project
[14:16] <thafreak> i've never done it, but supposedly you can replace a drive at a time, and eventually have a bigger array...
[14:16] <thafreak> i can hack and slash
[14:16] <paultag> it sounds time consuming and painful
[14:16] <paultag> thafreak: dude, I'd love you long time
[14:16] <paultag> thafreak: there are so many hacks
[14:16] <thafreak> you have a coding standards doc, so some one as my self would be able to write code that fit in and didn't stand out?
[14:16] <paultag> thafreak: sure 'nuf -- http://docs.syn.pault.ag/syn-policy.html
[14:17] <paultag> thafreak: that's a WIP, so it's changing, but it covers the basics of every aspect of Syn, for the most part
[14:17] <paultag> thafreak: section 6
[14:17] <thafreak> geez...
[14:17] <paultag> that's open to change if we need to :)
[14:17] <thafreak> I think we have this backwards
[14:17] <thafreak> I should be recruiting you :)
[14:17] <paultag> thafreak: I'm always open for hack trades :)
[14:18] <thafreak> wow, the tabs over spaces thing...that's a big one
[14:18] <paultag> thafreak: yeah I know
[14:18] <thafreak> I'd have to adjust my .vimrc :)
[14:19] <paultag> thafreak: I'm a bit odd when it comes to Python. If you really feel strongly and you'll be working closely with me on it, I could change
[14:19] <paultag> thafreak: but the way I see it is tabs are nicer
[14:19] <paultag> people can set the stop to where they want (4 versus 8 versus 2)
[14:19] <paultag> it's easier to indent / back up
[14:19] <thafreak> oh, I always use the tab key...i just set vim to expand them to spaces....
[14:19] <paultag> and it should be a smaller size of the file over a huge package
[14:19] <paultag> thafreak: ah, I see
[14:19] <thafreak> this is true...
[14:20] <paultag> thafreak: but if someone really really cared, I could change
[14:20] <paultag> I know I'm a minority
[14:20] <thafreak> I think you just need to pick one and only one, and it seems the python community at large went spaces...so that's what I did
[14:20] <thafreak> no biggie
[14:20] <thafreak> like i said, I always use the tab key anyway
[14:21] <paultag> Yeah, I'm keeping it all consistant for if we need to switch it later, and so it's not mixed
[14:21] <thafreak> except when breaking up long lines...trying to get braces to line up, tabs don't always work
[14:21] <paultag> truth
[14:21] <paultag> thafreak: well spaces are fine there, since it's in the code line
[14:21] <paultag> that's more about the identation
[14:21] <thafreak> it annoys me to break things up anyway....but, so do long lines now....
[14:23] <paultag> thafreak: most of us are in #whube, if you want the IRC room
[14:23] <paultag> thafreak: and the code's on Github :)
[14:23] <thafreak> yeah, I think I'm "watching" it already on github...not that that means anything to me really, except as sort of a bookmark
[14:24] <paultag> :)
[14:24] <paultag> thafreak: issues exist on github/whube/syn/issues
[14:24] <thafreak> like things I "watch" I don't always keep track of...it's more of a log in to github, and oh yeah, I wanted to keep tabs on that project
[14:24] <thafreak> cool
[14:24] <paultag> yeah :)
[14:25] <thafreak> So I'm planning on building a much much larger system eventually...the puppet clone is just on piece...
[14:25] <paultag> thafreak: o'rly?
[14:26] <thafreak> it's essentially going to give a single sysadmin the ability to manage 10-100 times the servers he/she could normally manage
[14:26] <thafreak> like the one system to rule them all
[14:26] <paultag> thafreak: that would be pretty goddamn badass
[14:26] <thafreak> dashboards and panels out the wazoo
[14:27] <thafreak> clickety click to update all your systems pacakges...deploy new systems for specific roles...see what systems are doing (performance wise)
[14:27] <paultag> it would be kinda fun to expose Syn functions through a TCP/IP layer
[14:27] <paultag> establish a SSH link and be able to control package stuff
[14:27] <thafreak> I was thinking sort of a push system
[14:28] <thafreak> have you looked at pushy?
[14:28] <paultag> thafreak: no, let me google it :)
[14:28] <thafreak> remote python execution over ssh
[14:28] <paultag> oh interesting...
[14:28] <paultag> oh shit
[14:28] <thafreak> so you could run syn functions remoteley
[14:28] <paultag> thafreak: that's brillaint...
[14:28] <thafreak> there's also rpyc
[14:28] <thafreak> which is similar
[14:28] <paultag> how did I not think of this
[14:29] <thafreak> yeah, I know right
[14:29] <thafreak> basically, anything you think of, some one already did...and some one else already did it better than that guy
[14:29] <thafreak> or girl
[14:29] <paultag> thafreak: syn's open for hacking if you want to add some of this stuff, it would actually help the build farm I need to wire
[14:29] <thafreak> aight...
[14:30] <paultag> thafreak: so we can have a central machine that can scp a file, move it over ssh, and then call syn-plumbing to kick a build
[14:30] <paultag> thafreak: because all user-exposed scripts are actually python "plumbing" calls wrapped in a try/catch
[14:30] <thafreak> I found some neat stuff to hook pushy into fabric and re-use it's paramiko ssh connection...so you can remote run python in your fabric code
[14:30] <paultag> that's sweet
[14:31] <thafreak> then it would be easy to run remotely with pushy I bet
[14:31] <paultag> truth
[14:31] <paultag> thafreak: so, what's it going to take to get you hacking with me on this?
[14:31] <paultag> I need someone to be critical of my work, I need a peer :)
[14:31] <thafreak> I think I may also, instead of simply writing a puppet clone in python, I might actually base it on fabric
[14:32] <thafreak> so you want peer reviews...I could probably help with that
[14:32] <thafreak> what made you decide to go from toy/idea tinkering, to going full steam with syn?
[14:32] <paultag> thafreak: howsabout a hack trade. I'll actively work with your pet if you can help me with mine :)
[14:32] <paultag> thafreak: things just sort of lined up
[14:33] <thafreak> not out of frustration with apt or anything?
[14:33] <paultag> thafreak: I saw the goal, and ended up doing 7 KLOCS in the last 4 weeks
[14:33] <thafreak> or dpkg i should say
[14:33] <paultag> thafreak: Well yeah, but only mild
[14:33] <paultag> thafreak: the real idea is that I can do it better, cleaner and modernly
[14:33] <paultag> thafreak: it's not that I'm mad now and I'll give up once I accept it
[14:33] <paultag> just small things that annoy me about dpkg / deb generation
[14:34] <thafreak> well, no matter what you do, I'm sure it will blow yum out of the water atleast :)
[14:34] <paultag> yeah fuck that mess :)
[14:34] <thafreak> ah...ok
[14:34] <thafreak> generating debs is fucking nuts
[14:34] <paultag> thafreak: oh yeah, and all package maintainer files are in JSON
[14:34] <thafreak> honestly, I think I prefer making rpm's....
[14:34] <paultag> thafreak: and with a few scripts to curl a project page and regex for a package number, it can auto-upgrade syn source files and push them automatically, and only need human help when it fails
[14:35] <paultag> thafreak: Syns are super easy to make
[14:35] <thafreak> alright....I'd like to help steering at the very least... :)
[14:35] <paultag> that would be more then useful
[14:36] <thafreak> cause i honestly haven't liked any package system 100%
[14:36] <paultag> thafreak: me neither, hopefully this can help a bit. I have a feeling if it's executed right, it can do a lot of things really well
[14:36] <thafreak> closest I've come is apt4rpm....so the easy building of rpm's, with the nice management of apt
[14:36] <paultag> humm :)
[14:36] <thafreak> course the rpmdb part sucks a dick
[14:37] <thafreak> back in the day I was forever running rpmdb-rebuild or whatever
[14:37] <paultag> thafreak: I worked out if we do it right, Syn should be a few orders of magnatude faster at installing large batches of packages then dpkg or rpm
[14:37] <thafreak> stupid corrupt dbs
[14:37] <paultag> hahaha
[14:37] <paultag> we use a gzip compressed JSON file. Simple, easy, braindead simple to read if you need to
[14:37] <thafreak> to track what packages are installed?
[14:38] <paultag> also rebuilding it is a snap if you need to, it fragements package data in the package directories as well
[14:38] <paultag> thafreak: yeah, for now. I don't see a reason to use something like SQL :)
[14:38] <thafreak> yeah, sql is overkill...
[14:38] <paultag> I worked it out and tried it with about 10,000 package entries
[14:38] <thafreak> i really don't know what I would use honestly...haven't thought about the needs of a package system much
[14:39] <paultag> it was still faster then both pickle using the same method and dpkg
[14:39] <thafreak> pickle, or cPickle?
[14:39] <paultag> thafreak: yeah, it's one of those decisions that literally does not matter. It's really not blocking anything
[14:39] <paultag> thafreak: pickle, but I don't like the way it stores stuff, so I ditched it.
[14:39] <paultag> and it's not readable by any other language, really
[14:39] <thafreak> ah...this is true
[14:40] <thafreak> so what about BSON
[14:40] <paultag> the json dict would make it easy to post-mortum if the machine broke
[14:40] <thafreak> binary json?
[14:40] <paultag> thafreak: all the json read/write is abstracted with classes, so if you wanted to change it, it should be a few line delta
[14:40] <thafreak> not readable necessarily, but still cross platform
[14:40] <paultag> thafreak: it's pushing json compressed with gzip now
[14:40] <thafreak> gotcha...
[14:41] <thafreak> watch the mongodb/couchdb space, as they're heavy json users...anything they come up with will be useful for you I'm sure
[14:41] <paultag> thafreak: http://docs.syn.pault.ag/?p=json_file.json_file -- base interface for json_file, http://docs.syn.pault.ag/?p=json_bfile.json_bfile -- delta for the binary version
[14:41] <paultag> thafreak: I'll have to :)
[14:43] <thafreak> So, here's a q for you
[14:43] <paultag> sure sure
[14:43] <thafreak> you seem very pro json
[14:44] <paultag> I am :)
[14:44] <paultag> it's a scitch smaller then XML, which is nice for over the line / persistant stuff
[14:44] <thafreak> would you make a new syntax that's close to puppet's, but using json/yaml/or even plain python
[14:44] <paultag> also a snap to process :)
[14:44] <paultag> thafreak: hummm
[14:44] <thafreak> OR, write a parser to parse puppet syntax?
[14:45] <thafreak> The upside is that people could theoretically continue to use their already written puppet files
[14:45] <paultag> thafreak: true, but then you have to bind yourself to puppet's feature set
[14:45] <paultag> it's a toughie
[14:46] <thafreak> Well, I was kind of modeling it after puppet anyway with it's dependancy graphs
[14:46] <thafreak> I'm open to doing both too I guess
[14:46] <thafreak> a new syntax that's more flexible, but also supporting puppet's to make it easy for people to switch
[14:46] <paultag> thafreak: it's an odd problem
[14:46] <paultag> thafreak: I don't think there's a right answer here
[14:47] <thafreak> essentially, I'm parsing the file, and turning it into sets of resource objects arranged in a graph
[14:47] <paultag> humm :)
[14:47] <thafreak> so you could define a file, and what properties it needs, ownership, mode, should it exist or not exist, etc...
[14:48] <thafreak> that's all modeled as a file resource object
[14:48] <paultag> yeah, sure
[14:48] <thafreak> having more than one parser at that point shouldn't affect much other than allowing them to be defined differently
[14:48] <paultag> true
[14:48] <thafreak> the guts still work the same
[14:48] <paultag> yeah
[14:49] <thafreak> I'm really leaning towards having it be basically python syntax, as it would be easiest to implement...just need to work out what it should look like
[14:49] <thafreak> then add a puppet parser later
[14:49] <paultag> thafreak: I think python is tempting, and it could lead to some interesting things
[14:49] <paultag> thafreak: like extending it locally, and having conditionals and cases
[14:49] <paultag> be able to have an upgrade path function
[14:50] <paultag> but it adds complexity
[14:50] <paultag> and you have to provide a full interface
[14:50] <thafreak> I was thinking build a cli tool, and you point it at a "manifest", and it automatically does all the imports you need, then parses the file as python
[14:50] <paultag> I think that could be really solid
[14:51] <thafreak> so you don't need to import anyhting in your manifest...
[14:51] <thafreak> but that opens you up to security stuff...you know, never execute untrusted code...
[14:51] <thafreak> the whole use of exec/compile to run python from strings
[14:51] <paultag> thafreak: if they're about to execute a puppet script, at this point, if they're going to fuck up the datacenter, they'll fuck it up
[14:52] <thafreak> this is true...puppet allows you to execute shell commands willy-nilly
[14:52] <paultag> right
[14:52] <thafreak> so the sysadmin should be not stupid, and not execute something from the internet without reading it
[14:52] <paultag> a hacker should not be able to even make the connection to auth outside the datacenter
[14:53] <paultag> thafreak: I mean, they could rm -rf manually, too
[14:53] <thafreak> very true
[14:53] <paultag> if the sysadmin sucks, he should not be there :)
[14:54] <thafreak> i could throw some regex's in there maybe to look for things before execing it too...
[14:54] <paultag> thafreak: yeah, but it's not your job to ensure this is a safe plastic rounded toy
[14:54] <paultag> thafreak: this is for managing a datacenter
[14:54] <thafreak> and maybe run it through lint first to make sure it's even correct syntax
[14:54] <paultag> that would be awesome
[14:54] <paultag> syntax checking is awesome
[14:55] <thafreak> cause it would be silly to run it, and your tool blows up with an exception because of bad syntax in the manifest
[14:55] <paultag> thafreak: not only that, but it's nice to know how you're doing from time to time, so running lint often would be very useful
[14:55] <thafreak> you think if I name my tool sockpuppet, I'll get sued?
[14:55] <paultag> thafreak: nah :)
[14:56] <thafreak> or is there a snake/puppet reference to be made?
[14:56] <paultag> hummm
[14:56] <paultag> littlemspiggy
[14:57] <paultag> kermitthefrog
[14:57] <thafreak> more snakey...ie python
[14:57] <thafreak> oh...or I could go not the snake, but the comedy troupe
[14:57] <paultag> right right
[14:57] <paultag> oh good point
[14:57] <thafreak> should see if they had puppets for anything memorable
[14:58] <paultag> I was just googling
[14:58] <paultag> BRB
[14:58] <thafreak> cool...I'll bbl
[15:26] <thafreak> got it...
[15:26] <paultag> :)
[15:26] <thafreak> project code named "killer rabbit"
[15:26] <paultag> YES
[15:26] <thafreak> after the rabbit from holy grail
[15:26] <paultag> yeappers!
[15:28] <thafreak> that's atleast the name for now while I develop it...
[15:28] <thafreak> otherwise I'll spend too much time trying to name it
[15:28] <thafreak> and never write anything
[15:29] <paultag> thafreak: for sure
[15:31] <paultag> thafreak: P.S., most of the synners are in #whube :)
[15:31] <paultag> thafreak: and I'm sure most of them would be willing to help with killer rabbit too
[15:31] <thafreak> haha cool
[16:42] <thafreak> w00t! they got spice into debian testing! damn, wheezy is gonna be pimp
[16:42] <thafreak> look out fedora
[17:01] <paultag> thafreak: :)
[17:45] <itsafork> BONJOUR!
[17:45] <Unit193> Casps Lock... Howdy
[17:48] <itsafork> need an opinion::  what are your thoughts on a presentation about gaming on Ubuntu???
[17:49] <Unit193> It has games? ;) Who is the target?
[17:49] <paultag> teenagers
[17:51] <itsafork> well yeah, like "mainstream" games
[17:51] <itsafork> mmo-rpg's god-knows-what-else-people-play
[17:51] <Unit193> Sure, but most gamers have their "own" games they like
[17:53] <itsafork> well, yeah. but i think what i'm trying to say is; using ubuntu for your gaming pc is a great option
[17:54] <itsafork> or do-able option. or something like that, basically you dont NEED windows to play 90+% of your games
[17:55] <Unit193> Also, some windows only games work ok with wine (Didn't StarCraft2 do a little testing even?)
[17:55] <Unit193> AppDB is their friend ;)
[17:57] <itsafork> exactly!
[18:13] <thafreak> I like it
[18:13] <thafreak> counter strike played BETTER on wine than windows
[18:14] <thafreak> it crashed ALL the time under windows, but never for me under wine
[18:14] <itsafork> good deal!
[18:17] <thafreak> course games like those from the humble indie bundle which are built for linux work best :)
[18:19] <Unit193> IRCer I know like this one :( http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=19141