[00:04] duanedesign: you ready? [00:04] duanedesign, [00:04] yes [00:05] #startmeeting [00:05] Meeting started Fri Aug 12 00:05:04 2011 UTC. The chair is duanedesign. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot. [00:05] Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting. [00:05] o/ [00:06] hello [00:06] raise hand ih here o/ [00:06] okay [00:06] o/ [00:07] o/ [00:07] at least in spirit [00:07] o/ [00:07] Aloha [00:07] Sorry I'm late [00:07] ok i will start charles proposal [00:08] i hope some you had time to read it [00:08] read what (I just joined) [00:08] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox [00:09] #link will add it to the log pretty like I think [00:09] I had my personal live intervene [00:09] thanks led [00:09] duanedesign: who is here from the bt council ? [00:09] late, but here [00:09] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox [00:10] I think that link is mute ^^ [00:10] it just doesn't repeat them here anymore [00:10] Sorry I'm late [00:10] DarkwingDuck, we are just starting =] [00:11] Outstanding [00:11] I think the BT is all but dead, if people want to support new users, let them support new users on the forums or irc or LP or what have you [00:11] i dont know about that [00:11] If the BT wants to morph itself into an ambassador role, new to Ubuntu, and helping people integrate into the community, we need buy in from other teams [00:11] i think te team has a lot to offer. [00:12] Which we clearly do not have [00:12] so I suggest we discuss the BT with the CC [00:12] We have a lot to offer, but why do we need the BT to make the offering ? [00:12] bodhi_zazen: whilst me and UBT had issues, that news is devarsting to me [00:12] bodhi_zazen: I have contagted the MOTE Mentoring Program and the bugs Mentoring Program and they were interested in woring with us === PabloRubianes_ is now known as PabloRubianes [00:13] Well, that is what needs to be discussed, not the link from cprofit [00:13] IMO [00:13] What UBT needs is a core of people with TONs of time to drive it. [00:13] i think thr issue is we, the BT, put to many obstacles in the way for someone who just wants to learn Documentation [00:13] I don't have the time at the moment to be a driving force. [00:13] I think the link was one of the subjects of the meeting [00:13] DarkwingDuck, I thought that's part of what council was? People that were committed and had the time. [00:13] We need to map out how we are going to integrate the BT into the community [00:14] charlie-tca, +1 [00:14] charlie-tca: it is , but it is sort of irrelevant, IMO [00:14] I think we are missing the point [00:14] DarkwingDuck: we gave the coucil those ruights? [00:14] Unfortunately, there seems to be at least one person here who refuses such a meeting to even take place [00:14] * bkerensa can help with UBT [00:14] if we want to be a team or just pointers to upstream [00:14] Yes, but the Council can't even get on the same page. [00:14] as I see it [00:15] and I'm saying that as a Jr member on the council. [00:15] Hi [00:15] Hi JasonO [00:15] Hi [00:15] Hi jledbetter [00:16] Hi bkerensa [00:16] That's the issue... we have no "roadmap" [00:16] the mentoring programs that exist in different areas of the community are struggking, as i understand, The beginners Team has much knowkedge in this area we can bring ti the table [00:16] This is Ubuntu Beginners Team Meeting correct? [00:16] bkerensa, Yes :) [00:16] * bkerensa is in the right place then [00:17] duanedesign, yes but I see that the original BT way was the best [00:17] I see the BT as feeding the other projects. a place people can go and ask (and get help with) "I want to help. Where/How can I?" [00:17] where you have a guide (human) to interact [00:17] Its not just the core team to spend time. We ned contribution from each memeber, atleast for an hour each day [00:17] We need to work with Doc Team, Bug Squad, MOTE wcwtera to best determin how to get people interested in their team. At the sametime encourage their mentoring program to join ours,So we can share best practices and resources [00:17] The future of the BT is what needs to be discussed, there is no consensus on the council or within the team , there is no mission [00:18] bodhi_zazen, true [00:18] jledbetter: i agree, er nned to push people to these other teams [00:18] Oh no... she's going to be one of *those* people.... [00:18] duanedesign: indeed, as of my "leaving" UBT, is also seems that things like MOTU, have failed... miserably [00:18] "The Ubuntu Beginners Team exists to enhance the initial experience of new Ubuntu users and to guide existing Ubuntu users to become part of the global Ubuntu community. " https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/ [00:18] but if we are just pointer to other places, none stays and knowledge get lost [00:18] I'm still here. [00:19] jledbetter: that definition is depreciated [00:19] and I went from BT to Doc team and Kubuntu Council [00:19] PabloRubianes, I would think folks would be happy to be helped and emaybe stick around to help others. [00:19] And can be better served in other ways [00:19] bodhi_zazen, Oh? Documentation? [00:19] PabloRubianes: good point. I would work to integrate the other teams mentoring processes into the beginnersteam [00:19] You do not need a BT to help on LP, forums, irc .... [00:19] PabloRubianes; I think you have it wrong, at least in my eyes [00:19] bodhi_zazen, Nope. Anyone can. :) [00:19] jledbetter: Documentation of what ? [00:20] bodhi_zazen, Why it's deprecated. [00:20] MrChrisDruif, what do you think? [00:20] It would be *awesome* is "we" would become the mentoring area [00:20] jledbetter: did you not read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox [00:20] bodhi_zazen, That's what we're discussing. It's not in place :) [00:20] * phillw to be suspended for a sense of humour.... What rules where there for that? [00:20] It has not been fully adopted [00:20] That way we wouldn't loose any knowledge [00:20] bodhi_zazen: i agree we need no team buti can not imagine I would have ever been so active had I not belong to a team than containeed so many knowledgable people in different areas of the community [00:20] MrChrisDruif, I mean in the new model proposed [00:21] I think BT should have a person who handles each aspect of contribution: bugs, doc, locos, dev, marketing etc and should act as a beginner mentor in each area [00:21] What we need to do is have a discussion with the CC and other community leaders [00:21] and build a role for the BT [00:21] i agree bodhi_zazen [00:21] support will be a part of what we do [00:21] bodhi_zazen: +1 [00:21] I think becoming a mentorship area is the ideal, but first we have to have a strong team behind with sense of pretence [00:21] bodhi_zazen: preliminary talks have happened with Joeb454 [00:21] and half the team can not grasp that concept [00:21] PabloRubianes, +1 [00:21] err, jono [00:22] like jledbetter , and others [00:22] Wow. [00:22] which results in chaos [00:22] sense of you belong there [00:22] bodhi_zazen, and I think there should be a -team where we had all fun and more than that [00:23] IAmNotThatGuy: I agree, but that is not the future of theBT [00:23] bodhi_zazen, What can't I grasp, exactly? [00:23] IAmNotThatGuy, +1 [00:23] What does the UBT think they are? [00:23] the council has been debating this for ever now... [00:23] What does the rest of the UBT see the UBT being? [00:23] bodhi_zazen: i think i agree that input from thecommunity is essentkial. What do they want, what will help most. From who i talked to a Mentor program woould help most. AS lot of teams have troublemaintaining them. hving a team that is all they do increases chances for succes IMHO [00:23] I do not know jledbetter , you are citing the old mission statement and wondering what happened [00:23] duanedesign: well, that is haelpful [00:24] apparently, if the team consists of bodhi_zazen, it is what ever he decides [00:24] bodhi_zazen, Because that's what is on our wiki page and what brings people to us and why we get emails of people wanting to join. Right? [00:24] can you lay that out on a wiki page ? [00:24] duanedesign, Yes, mentoring is what I keep hearing too. [00:24] DarkwingDuck; I would see it as it is; which would be support for beginning ubunteros and help in the transition from ubuntero to active ubuntero [00:24] I think we need to try not to be a mess in here [00:24] * phillw can I state how totally wrong the lp emails are? [00:25] The current mission is: The Ubuntu Beginners Team exists to enhance the initial experience of new Ubuntu users and to guide existing Ubuntu users to become part of the global Ubuntu community. [00:25] DarkwingDuck: ^ [00:25] PabloRubianes: the Bt is in shambles, from top to bottom, from bottom to top [00:25] if yoiu wish to be professionall, then gewt them sorted [00:25] bodhi_zazen, I love UBT for the helpp and the team channel rather than FGs. And thats why I am not ready to leave the -team channel. It gives me some sort of energy to proceed forward. Kinda a force to run [00:25] bodhi_zazen, yes [00:25] Yes, I know the mission statement.. I'm looking at what the members within the team view the team as. [00:25] Even within this meeting there is no agreement as to what the BT is any longer [00:25] With that in mind; that would mean that we should be mentoring people to becoming members in their prospected area [00:25] Same for the mailing list [00:25] That's my point bodhi_zazen [00:26] same for the council [00:26] Those areas would have people coming back to us to let the knowledge remain [00:26] MrChrisDruif, I think there is where you get it wrong, [00:26] new members should be first members of the team and then go upstream [00:26] i would like to thing if you go through the Beginners team and lear Documentation, you will come back and repay that favor mentoring someone else [00:27] The greater community is asking the BT to morph from what is is/was into something else and most of the council see the team going in that direction [00:27] duanedesign, What I was thinking too [00:27] if we only help to evolve people to other teams in a few time none will remain in the bt [00:27] If not all of the council [00:27] The BT membership seems split 50/50 [00:28] one idea was to have an open team of eople looking for help [00:28] PabloRubianes: that may be the future of the BT [00:28] and another team of mentors [00:28] if there is no mission / purpose [00:28] bodhi_zazen, but I don't think that is right... [00:28] What is not right ? The UDS request ? the team forking ? === rsalveti` is now known as rsalveti [00:29] bodhi_zazen, you know that this is our home. People who are loving it hard are still there. And how can we break it? We can do help in all FG, but lets also have #UB and -team [00:29] bodhi_zazen, let out team future on other decision [00:30] bodhi_zazen: My Lord and Master, I really feel to see a sense of humour. It has really troubled me as I so, so strongly belive in UBT.... where did they & I go wrong? [00:30] The team needs to decide what it wants to be [00:30] lord and master? [00:30] * DarkwingDuck sighs [00:30] * MrChrisDruif joins DarkwingDuck in sighs [00:30] Are we going to answer the request from the community ? [00:31] Or be a support team ? [00:31] bodhi_zazen, why cant we do both? [00:31] bodhi_zazen, You would prefer support? As in "how to do I make X work in Ubuntu"? [00:31] Anyhow, I think duanedesign and I pretty much are on the same page, but just rephrasing it differently [00:31] Lets not break what we are till now and lets work on the request from the community [00:31] IAmNotThatGuy: because half the team does not want to do both, half the team wants to be support only [00:32] Then they can be support. Those that don't can mentor ;) [00:32] jledbetter; +1 [00:32] DarkwingDuck: and MrChrisDruif you do not see our nick names, fior some this is a 'problem' but for those who know, this a statememnt of authourity [00:34] phillw: What are you smoking and where can I get some? :P [00:34] lol [00:34] =D [00:34] So put that for a vote, both, then change the various wiki pages, and mov eforward [00:34] bodhi_zazen, Or lets m,ake it like to be an UBT member, they should provide help in any one FG(If thats the case) but not breaking the -team :[ [00:35] We should seriously do away with "membership" [00:35] We should either : [00:35] bodhi_zazen: +1 [00:35] 1. Be an open team - probably best, anyone can join [00:35] I'm going to be brutally honest for a moment... [00:35] 2. Write out specific expectations for membership [00:35] DarkwingDuck: Sure [00:35] and if you all want to fire me as a council member after, that's fine. [00:35] UBT is too full of egos and "look at what I can do" people [00:36] +1 DarkwingDuck [00:36] DarkwingDuck: I have a guy who states "Hello Master" - I have been hi master, he inseests upon it because of it being barred [00:36] We seriously need to bleed off the disruptive members [00:36] It's turned into a group where people point at themselves and yell at what they do/have done. [00:36] +1 [00:36] Ubuntu is not for people like that... [00:36] +1 [00:36] bodhi_zazen: and replenish with valuable ones? [00:36] If you want to brag about how great you are... go to Fedora or Arch [00:37] lol [00:37] replenish what [00:37] council seem to be closed qligue [00:37] I thought folks were in UBT to help others. [00:37] bodhi_zazen: members [00:37] jledbetter: in theory. In reality it's the inflated ego club of the month [00:37] I say we do not need "membership" [00:37] I was astounded to realise tat council only vote on new mwmbwrs [00:37] should be an open team [00:38] DarkwingDuck, great I think you are showing your ego [00:38] bodhi_zazen, I agree with you: open [00:38] How is that? [00:38] PabloRubianes: ^^ [00:38] At one time we sort of needed a membership process, but that was long ago and we have outgrown that need [00:39] the first thing we should do is not to say... if you want that go to arch or fedora... [00:39] The idea of membership is dragging the team down and interfering with integration into the community [00:39] bodhi_zazen: started UBT.... those who fail to listen to his advice, are fools. [00:39] bodhi_zazen, the community don't even know we exist until they need a team to get people in [00:39] bodhi_zazen, Agreed. Can we vote on that? [00:39] phillw: Can you please kindly stop trolling? [00:40] * jledbetter would love to see a positive outcome from our first meeting in a while :) [00:40] What the BT needs is [00:40] 1. to define a mission statement [00:40] 2. We could use a few leaders please. Leaders have tended to go MIA [00:41] i agree with ann open Beginners Team, But a closed Council Team [00:41] 3. We need some people who are willing to put some serious time into productive projects [00:41] Council conversations and decitions need to be open. [00:41] s/council/bt channel ops [00:41] i agree, i think the monthly Council meetings will quickly bleed off the inactives [00:42] That is all we really need, channel ops to rid the channel of the occasional troll [00:42] I do not want to see this team implode. We worked to hard to get hear an a lot of the community is starting to take notice of us [00:42] We still need leaders [00:42] We do have an opening, I think. [00:42] so let us ne civilized in handling this dierty laundry [00:42] bodhi_zazen, Running? [00:42] Who is going to work with other community teams ? [00:43] Who is going to provide support ? Where ? IRC ? Forums " LP ? [00:43] Not me for a while, personal life issues [00:44] I'm hunting for a job, trying to stay in my apt and at this point in the release cycle my Ubuntu time is tied up in Kubuntu... [00:45] Don't all step forward at once =) [00:45] bodhi_zazen: the support will be prvided not by BT [00:45] You see, all this team does any more is debate, no workers [00:46] bodhi_zazen, I am always in. But Promise me that a -tem channel exists [00:46] -team* [00:46] bodhi_zazen: the spport will be provided by the teams we mentor users for [00:46] duanedesign: I thought we agreed to split the team into two roles - support AND working with other teams [00:46] * MrChrisDruif is off, bicker among yourselves. I think the document Charles put up is the direction we should try to go for. [00:46] we should first start by defining the BT mission [00:47] duanedesign: I agree with your definition "the spport will be provided by the teams we mentor users for" [00:47] bodhi_zazen: at its most simp[le. Help users get involved in the community [00:47] I agree, drop support form BT, support goes to IRC, forms, LP, etc [00:47] I would agree with that definition, and I think the entire council would as well [00:48] I agree with that mission, duanedesign, for what it's worth. [00:48] The rest of the team, however, is not willing to do that [00:48] +1 the statement [00:48] Which would mean forking the team [00:48] bodhi_zazen, Am I in the "rest of the team" statement still? [00:48] Why not? [00:48] One team for community involvement and one for support [00:49] bodhi_zazen: does that mean dropping MOTU training? As they understood it was going to be UBT? [00:49] phillw: depends on who you ask [00:49] I thought MOTU had a mentoring project? [00:50] bodhi_zazen: indeed, so a meeting like this is good :) [00:50] jledbetter: not really, they were heading to UBT [00:50] Personally I would drop the support role from the BT and change to getting people involved in the community [00:50] I think the entire council wants that [00:51] a lot of active users like to give supprt. So i think we politely nudge then to #ubuntu [00:51] move support to the appropriate, already existing community infrastructure - forums, LP, IRC, wiki [00:52] The BT is for"Help users get involved in the community" [00:52] bodhi_zazen: you know through ~lubuntu, I do want at least one of our devs to become MOTU, He is capabble, but the the teams do not sema to be able to decide who says 'yes' [00:52] so this may mean directing them to forums, IRC, LP wiki [00:52] This is what I am looking for. 1) I don't like duplicated efforts. 2) I believe in helping new contributers make the transition into a team that works on a 6 month cycle with hardcore deadlines. 3) I believe in helping new people to Ubuntu. [00:52] or MOTU or what have you [00:53] 4) I dislike people who try to use teams to inflate egos. [00:53] The actual "work" gets done by the wiki team, or on #ubuntu, or on the fourms [00:53] One moment! [00:53] DarkwingDuck: +1 [00:54] I think we vote for a council... so this is just input [00:54] So again, back to square one, mission statement please =) [00:54] Probably need to stage the transition to be honest [00:55] Change mission statement to support and Help users get involved in the community [00:55] nudge members to #ubuntu or LP or MOTU [00:55] In 6-12 months re-define the mission statement to only "Help users get involved in the community" [00:55] what's wrong to give support? waste of time? or something? [00:55] you are not oblide to do it [00:56] Nothing is wrong with it [00:56] In the past support was the core of the mission statement, and we are changing [00:56] PabloRubianes: some we win, some we lose - that should not stop us trying [00:57] so support will be provided not by the BT, but by existing teams / venues == less duplication of effort, etc [00:57] Okay sorry gang.. Kids are yelling and I need to support the wife. [00:57] DarkwingDuck, See you later. Thank you for coming:) [00:59] bodhi_zazen: I'd give a +1 for that :) [01:00] My proposal would be - Change the mission statement to include BOTH support AND Help users get involved in the community [01:01] Expect those who want to do #2 , Help users get involved in the community, build the bridges over the next 6 months [01:01] then re-evaluate [01:01] bodhi_zazen: how many coucil members are here? [01:01] Depending on what progress is made we can morph to Help users get involved in the community or support ONLY, or continue on the dual path [01:02] seem like that would make the most people happy [01:02] poke Calling all FC council members [01:02] * bodhi_zazen is here [01:03] The team also has to find a more effective method of communication, not everyone can make IRC meetings [01:04] as do rioters, if you would propose your motion. [01:05] phillw: you willing to post that on the BT mailing list ? [01:05] Ask people to vote on the mailing list ? [01:05] Or set up some other voting method ? [01:05] We could take a straw poll here now [01:06] Please vote , Dual mission (+1) ? [01:07] bodhi_zazen: with the greatest of pleasure, but there is a PM for you :) [01:07] duanedesign, You can do #vote and I think it'll tally up votes for you [01:08] we are voting now? [01:08] bodhi_zazen put a vote to the floor [01:09] jledbetter: I do not think I can do that [01:09] Why not, bodhi_zazen? [01:09] My point is, I do not think there are enough people here now to vote, we should up it up on the mailing list [01:09] Alright. Sounds good. I second that motion. [01:11] duanedesign, Still with us? [01:11] I'm back [01:12] welcome back DarkwingDuck [01:18] Are we done here? [01:18] Mmm [01:18] Done are we? [01:18] Dunno, I came back and nothing. [01:19] bodhi_zazen, I think, was making a motion to vote on the mission on the mailing list. [01:19] +1 [01:19] We seem to have lost duanedesign to the RL monster so can't #vote or #endmeeting :) [01:19] DarkwingDuck, Since you're our other leader here. Feel free to stick a fork in it :) [01:20] Anything else anyone else wants to bring up? [01:22] What about the people who want to be mentored? Just received an email from a new person. [01:22] Or was that previously mentioned? [01:23] :/ [01:24] JasonO, Mentoring will happen (According to the FGs) [01:24] Okey. FGs? [01:24] but I am still not sure whether #ubuntu-beginners-team will exist or not [01:24] Focus Group [01:25] Oh. [01:25] Why wouldn't it exist? [01:33] Well, I need to get back to work :) See y'all later! [01:33] #endmeeting [01:33] duanedesign: ping === seeker_ is now known as seeker === doko__ is now known as doko === medberry is now known as med_out [10:47] + === Mkaysi_ is now known as Mkaysi === micahg_ is now known as micahg [14:57] hey [14:59] o/ [14:59] * wendar = pseudoskaet waves [14:59] * joshuahoover waves [14:59] * charlie-tca waves [15:00] hi all, let's get started [15:00] #startmeeting [15:00] #topic Oneiric Release Meeting overview - wendar [15:00] . [15:00] Agenda is at: [15:00] wendar: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress. [15:00] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-08-12 [15:00] . [15:01] duanedesign: could you end your meeting? :) [15:01] pseudoskaet... sounds clinical [15:02] hi [15:03] slangasek: I don't see duanedesign, can we force an old meeting to end? [15:03] did this meeting move to an hour earlier? usually I can't make it but this is nice :) [15:03] AlanBell: is there any way to end an old meeting now? [15:03] wendar: only if we have someone ( AlanBell ?) who can kick it on the server [15:04] last time this occured, someone just /nick'd to the person who should have closed their meeting and #endmeeting'd [15:05] ah, but duanedesign is still on the channel :/ [15:05] poop [15:05] I think we've no choice but to move ahead without the bot to back us? [15:05] #endmeeting [15:05] thanks, AlanBell [15:06] it didn't do it [15:06] I will try and do it another way [15:07] #startmeeting [15:07] nope . . . [15:08] let's carry on, then [15:08] Is there some file which can be edited for meeting to stop? [15:08] thanks for trying [15:08] @help config reload [15:08] Mkaysi: (config reload takes no arguments) -- Reloads the various configuration files (user database, channel database, registry, etc.). [15:08] Could do it after editing config [15:08] * AlanBell restarts the bot [15:08] I was going to code something up to automatically end a meeting after an hour of inactivity or something [15:09] try now [15:09] #startmeeting [15:10] and again [15:10] #startmeeting [15:10] Meeting started Fri Aug 12 15:10:33 2011 UTC. The chair is wendar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot. [15:10] Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting. [15:10] yay [15:10] yay! [15:10] onward... [15:10] #topic Oneiric Release Meeting overview - wendar [15:10] . [15:10] Agenda is at: [15:10] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-08-12 === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Oneiric Release Meeting overview - wendar [15:10] TOPIC: Oneiric Release Meeting overview - wendar [15:10] . [15:11] interestingly enough, unloading a plugin isn't case sensitive, but loading it again is! [15:11] 11.10 FeatureFreeze : August 11, 2011 at 2100 UTC [15:11] If new features still need to be uploaded, please follow: [15:11] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess [15:11] and the plugin is "MeetBot" [15:11] . [15:11] Upcoming events: [15:11] - 11.10 BetaFreeze: Aug 25, 2011 at 2100 UTC. [15:11] - 11.10 UserInterfaceFreeze: August 25, 2011 at 2100 UTC. [15:11] - 11.10 Beta 1: Sept 1, 2011. [15:11] . [15:11] AlanBell: yay posix semantics :) [15:11] Bugs targetted for this release can be found: [15:11] #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+bugs [15:11] Bugs milestoned for oneiric beta-1 are at: [15:11] #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+bugs?field.milestone% [15:11] 3Alist=39143 [15:11] . [15:11] Other news: [15:11] Please take a moment to complete the bug life cycle survey, [15:11]