[06:46] <Wolfeyes> Morning everyone
[07:06] <nlsthzn_work> Alo Wolfeyes :)
[07:25] <Wolfeyes> HEYA nlsthzn_work 
[07:25] <Wolfeyes> oops
[07:26] <nlsthzn_work> oops?
[07:33] <Wolfeyes> The caps ^
[08:30] <Kilos> morning superfly Wolfeyes 
[08:30] <Kilos> and hi to all you other peeps
[08:31] <Kilos> Maaz, coffee on
[08:31]  * Maaz flips the salt-timer
[08:35] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for Kilos!
[08:35] <Kilos> Maaz, ty
[08:35] <Maaz> Enjoy Kilos
[10:10] <superfly> morning Kilos
[10:15]  * nlsthzn-work waves
[10:15] <Kilos> hiya nlsthzn-work 
[10:15] <nlsthzn-work> Hey Uncle Kilos :)
[11:33] <Kilos> Maaz, whats for 
[11:33] <Maaz> Kilos: Excuse me?
[11:33] <Kilos> lol
[11:33] <Kilos> Maaz, sorry
[11:33] <Maaz> Kilos, don't do it again!
[11:33] <Kilos> Maaz, ok
[11:33] <Maaz> Kilos: Sorry...
[12:13] <inetpro> good morning kilo[tab]
[12:13] <inetpro> oh and hi everyone else
[12:13]  * nlsthzn-work waves 
[12:15] <sakhi> hi inetpro 
[12:15] <inetpro> heh sakhi
[12:15] <inetpro> and nlsthzn-work
[12:16] <nlsthzn-work> What's up?
[12:16] <inetpro> hmm... was just typing what's up at #ubuntu-za today?
[12:18] <nlsthzn-work> :) so I guess we are both out of the loop :p
[12:18] <inetpro> nlsthzn-work: I guess so, how do we get in it?
[12:19] <nlsthzn-work> I'm not sure... while it is only the two of us talking I think we are a bit stuffed :)
[12:19] <inetpro> nlsthzn-work: I see you are back at work?
[12:20] <inetpro> you survived the zombie feeling of yedterday
[12:20] <inetpro> yesterday*
[12:22] <nlsthzn-work> not really... I basically didn't sleep a wink last night... today has been torture (but it is almost passed... one more hour to go) during Ramadan thet change the working hours, so day shift is one hour less and night shift one more... really glad about that today :D
[12:23] <inetpro> lucky fish!
[12:26] <inetpro> nlsthzn-work: I'm sure you'll be sleeping without problems tonight
[12:27] <nlsthzn-work> That or sadly I won't be with you all tomorrow (having lost all my marbles and ran naked into the desert)
[12:32] <nlsthzn-work> ... I suspect if I get to see the Boks play online they are sure to put me to sleep :/
[12:49] <nlsthzn-work> http://www.khanacademy.org/
[12:50] <nlsthzn-work> That is pretty awesome!
[13:09] <nlsthzn-work> time for home "YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" .... ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[17:34] <Kilos> good evening fellas
[17:35] <Kilos> naand inetpro apie nuvolari superfly 
[17:35] <Kilos> Maaz, coffee on
[17:35]  * Maaz puts the kettle on
[17:35] <superfly> evening Kilos
[17:35] <superfly> Maaz: coffee please
[17:35] <Maaz> superfly: Done
[17:36] <kbmonkey> morning Kilos and superfly 
[17:36] <Kilos> lol
[17:36] <inetpro> goeie more Kilos
[17:37] <inetpro> and good evening to every other body
[17:38] <superfly> hiya kbmonkey
[17:38] <superfly> evening inetpro
[17:38] <Kilos> yo Ludo 
[17:38] <superfly> ohi Ludo
[17:38] <Ludo> Hi Kilos and superfly
[17:38] <inetpro> heh wb Ludo
[17:38] <Ludo> hi inetpro thx
[17:39] <Ludo> should be studying so i decided rather to visit you guys :D
[17:39] <Kilos> yay
[17:39] <Maaz> Coffee's ready for Kilos and superfly!
[17:39] <Kilos> very lonely here at times
[17:39] <Kilos> Maaz, ank rusks
[17:39] <Maaz> Kilos: *blink*
[17:39] <Kilos> Maaz, and rusks
[17:39] <Maaz> I hid them away Kilos Pm me and I'll tell you where they are
[17:39] <Kilos> Maaz, ty
[17:40] <Maaz> Enjoy Kilos
[17:40] <Ludo> so seeing i was out of the loop for a long time what is za's general feeling on unity?
[17:40] <superfly> Ludo: there are 3 camps
[17:40] <superfly> Those who love it
[17:40] <superfly> those who hate it
[17:40] <superfly> and those who use KDE :-P
[17:40] <Ludo> and those who do not care?
[17:40] <Kilos> lol
[17:40] <Ludo> oh :P
[17:41] <Ludo> I became a big Qt supporter but not so big into KDE
[17:42] <Ludo> but at the moment i'm on XP so i can not really comment on anything.
[17:42] <superfly> I can't stand Gnome
[17:42] <Kilos> eina
[17:42] <Ludo> superfly xfce?
[17:42]  * inetpro agrees with superfly
[17:42] <superfly> I mean, it's OK, but I find the lack of customisability really irritating
[17:42] <Ludo> i wish there was a xfce like project using Qt
[17:42] <inetpro> qt = kde
[17:42] <inetpro> kde = qt
[17:43] <Ludo> superfly i find gnome very customisable(frek there goes the english again) but kde just have to much options for me.
[17:44] <kbmonkey> I don't mind qt but so far have managed to keep qt, kde and gnome dependencies off my system
[17:45] <kbmonkey> I find openbox very, very customizable, but you get your hands very dirty doing so! great fun
[17:45] <Kilos> lol , how you get your hands dirty onna pc
[17:46] <Ludo> Kilos easy open it up and look at all the dust in it ;) whenever i do some pc repairs my hands always gets dirty.
[17:46] <kbmonkey> yup!
[17:47] <Kilos> oh i use a compressor for that
[17:47] <kbmonkey> kilos i once serviced a pc from a couple farmers in the midlands. some of them had hornets nests inside! can you believe it...
[17:47]  * Ludo will in the near future(2 years *cough*cough*) use a unix based OS for his personal OS.
[17:47] <Kilos> lol
[17:47] <Kilos> shame Ludo  thats hard
[17:47] <kbmonkey> you should Ludo :)
[17:48] <Kilos> hey kbmonkey how did you get to be linux oriented
[17:48] <Kilos> if everything is ms at schools and varsities
[17:48] <Ludo> kbmonkey i remember a story where a unix box was found at a car dealership with daga cement on it just working with ethernet and power.
[17:50] <Ludo> kbmonkey next job i will insist on using the OS of my choice :P but at the moment one of the software packages is very Windows based and I do dual boot but never really into 
[17:50] <Ludo> Ubuntu :/ So rinstall windows xp every 6 months and relay heavily on portable apps!
[17:50] <kbmonkey> I was a job monkey kilos so i could use what OS i wanted. i didnt have a pc for a long time, finally i bought one and put ubuntu on first thing
[17:51] <kbmonkey> my job was programming application for windows pc's lol
[17:51] <Kilos> i often wonder what or how people get involved with linux
[17:51] <Kilos> ah
[17:52] <kbmonkey> i knew of linux about 2001 at a computer college where we worked on caldera and red hat
[17:52] <Ludo> one of my pet peeves is using the term linux if you refer to a whole OS
[17:52] <Kilos> Ludo, you lucky its only every 6 months
[17:52] <kbmonkey> that's how i found out, because didnt have internet to discover all these things :)
[17:53] <kbmonkey> what do you mean Ludo?
[17:53] <Kilos> sorry Ludo in my case ubuntu
[17:53] <kbmonkey> like, "I am a Linux!"
[17:53]  * Kilos loves ubuntu, and gnome
[17:53] <Ludo> Kilos actually when ever i feel my windows box is slow or comprimised. But since i started using portable apps and watch what i install the box is going on ok... not bad for software that is 10 years old +!
[17:54] <Kilos> lol like mine, early p4
[17:54] <Kilos> started onna p3  with 8.04
[17:55] <Ludo> kbmonkey linux is a kernel not a operating system. So the open source crowd decided lets brand all linux based operating systems as linux for marketing.
[17:56] <Ludo> and i don't like that.
[17:56] <Ludo> Red hat and Ubuntu is different operating systems just based on the same tech...
[17:56] <Ludo> anybody here tried the debian/hurd distro?
[17:57] <kbmonkey> oh, yes, they are different flavored linux distros :)
[17:57] <kbmonkey> hurd is GNU, not debian
[17:57] <kbmonkey> that's richard stallmans baby :)
[17:57] <Ludo> kbmonkey http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/
[17:58] <kbmonkey> i'd love to try it, need to wait to get it
[17:58] <kbmonkey> what? debian ported to hurd? wow! thanks Ludo!
[17:58]  * Ludo still wants a minux 3 distro :D
[17:59] <Ludo> yea saw it on reddit a week or two ago, its finally production ready or something like that.
[17:59] <Ludo> kbmonkey you migh find it interesting that debian can also run on freebsd
[17:59] <Ludo> instead of using the linux kernel
[18:00]  * inetpro settled on kubuntu since it's also based on debian
[18:00] <kbmonkey> Kilos if you are confused, the linux kernel is the brains of all distros. hurd and freebsd are just different kernels, different brains if you will :)
[18:01] <Kilos> ah ty kbmonkey 
[18:01] <Ludo> inetpro i wonder how far it have strayed from debian... for inovation and stuff
[18:04] <kbmonkey> that was some fine tea
[18:04] <kbmonkey> how is lynx going Kilos ?
[18:04] <Kilos> didnt do much today but after last night i understand it better ty
[18:05] <Kilos> the pro quite clevver at times
[18:05] <Kilos> i am still trying to find where that recovery goodie is hihing
[18:05] <kbmonkey> that grub recovery thingy?
[18:06] <Ludo> lynx the web browser?
[18:06] <Kilos> yeah but i dont think it is in grub because i am sure it fixes lots
[18:06] <kbmonkey> yes Ludo we are learning to use lynx
[18:06] <Kilos> like it fixed ian dpkg yesterday
[18:06] <Ludo> for that emergency google session when x11 dies on you ;)
[18:07] <kbmonkey> he he
[18:07] <kbmonkey> i tried irssi and centerim too for cli irc
[18:07] <Kilos> kbmonkey, what about weechat
[18:07]  * Ludo still want to spend a lot of time learning vim
[18:08] <Kilos> maia uses it all the time
[18:08] <Ludo> but not on a windows box because before i can stop my hands i have opened notepad++ instead of gvim :P
[18:08] <Kilos> i tried it but xchat suits me better
[18:08] <kbmonkey> gedit or vi
[18:08] <Kilos> Ludo, YOU CAN GET XCHAT ON WONDOWS TOO
[18:08] <Kilos> sorry
[18:08] <Kilos> typo
[18:09] <kbmonkey> i navigate my windows with vi-luike keys, and web browser too, and music player too, lol
[18:09] <kbmonkey> Kilos you do, but they charge for it
[18:09] <Kilos> no
[18:09] <Ludo> Kilos yip i know what way back when the world was good i bought mirc licence
[18:09] <kbmonkey> the linux version is free. he he
[18:09] <Kilos> Maaz, google xchat for win xp
[18:09] <Maaz> Kilos: "XChat for Windows" http://xchat.org/windows/ :: "xchat.org • View topic - XChat 2.0.9 WinXP Font Issue" http://forum.xchat.org/viewtopic.php?t=25 :: "XCHAT FAQ" http://xchat.org/faq/ :: "X-Chat 2 for Windows" http://www.silverex.org/ :: "Download - X-Chat 2 for Windows" http://www.silverex.org/download/ :: "XChat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XChat :: "Windows XP Tips - Programs - XChat‏ - YouT
[18:09] <kbmonkey> but you get other chat irc chat clients that are free too 
[18:09] <inetpro> Ludo: as long as sabdfl and others are involved with ubuntu it will stay very close to debian
[18:09] <Ludo> kbmonkey you get a free windows version aswell compiled by some hackers with extra bot "code" int it ;)
[18:10] <Kilos> one of those up there work
[18:10] <kbmonkey> you do Ludo its called YChat iirc ;) but its not the official one
[18:10] <Ludo> http://www.silverex.org/download/
[18:10] <Ludo> inetpro cool
[18:10] <kbmonkey> you can irc with telnet too but thats a bit much :p
[18:11]  * Ludo has a irc client he have written himself some years ago... *gulp* like 10 years ago O_o i'm getting old!
[18:11] <Kilos> lol
[18:12] <kbmonkey> that is cool Ludo! 
[18:12] <Kilos> i like xchat. it is very user friendly
[18:12] <kbmonkey> i wrote an xmpp one :p
[18:12] <Ludo> but i like that one bash quote. IRC is like notepad only multiplayer
[18:12] <kbmonkey> ha ha! it is!
[18:12] <kbmonkey> without undo or erase
[18:12] <Ludo> kbmonkey you mean *cough* jabber
[18:12] <kbmonkey> :p
[18:13] <Ludo> you ever played around with jingle?
[18:13] <kbmonkey> nope
[18:13] <Ludo> if google wave evertook of it would have put xmpp on the map. now i don't feel like xmpp is that big.
[18:14] <Ludo> i only know about google talk and mxit using it for anything interesting in my life.
[18:14] <kbmonkey> its a great protocol IMHO, I dont think it will disappear too soon
[18:14] <inetpro> yikes
[18:14] <Ludo> kbmonkey i also don't think it will ever disappear but it is a bit heavy with a lot of over head.
[18:15] <Ludo> inetpro ?
[18:15] <inetpro> xmpp is what keeps most IM software afloat
[18:15] <inetpro> these days*
[18:15] <Ludo> but thinking of it facebook also uses xmpp if i remember correctly.
[18:15] <inetpro> exactly
[18:16] <Ludo> inetpro the only real big guys i know that uses it is google(and maybe fb now) msn and skype(other to big players) all use their own protocal
[18:16] <Ludo> sorry for all my mistakes
[18:16] <inetpro> Ludo: I bet that even BBM is based on it
[18:17] <inetpro> and even whatsapp and others
[18:17] <inetpro> floss no no longer be ignored
[18:18] <kbmonkey> good point inetpro! they probably do
[18:18] <inetpro> the sad part is that big corporates are still finding ways to hide how they integrate it
[18:18] <kbmonkey> yes google wave is great, a shame half the world doesn't have the bandwidth for it
[18:19] <inetpro> a lot of the functionality of wave has been built into G+
[18:20] <Ludo> inetpro I'm pretty sure BBM uses it own protocol: http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-protocol-for-BlackBerry-Messenger
[18:22] <Ludo> inetpro it also depends on the license to force corporates to share their secrets or not, i'm not a big fan of the gpl but the lgpl makes a lot of more sense for me and the whole gpl v3 thing is very interesting.
[18:22] <inetpro> Ludo: hmm, that article still doesn't explain a lot
[18:24] <kbmonkey> Chuck Norris protocol design method has no status, requests or responses, only commands
[18:25] <inetpro> kbmonkey: who is Chuck Norris?
[18:25] <Kilos> hehe
[18:25] <Ludo> true but to assume bbm is based on xmpp is a bad assumption. the article just say its a proprietary protocol
[18:25] <Ludo> one that helps roits :P
[18:25] <inetpro> Ludo: actually I was hoping somebody would come with more info :-)
[18:26]  * inetpro has been wondering about what they use
[18:26] <inetpro> roits?
[18:27] <Ludo> riots* sorry and i'm talking about the england riots
[18:27] <inetpro> ahh :-)
[18:27] <inetpro> Kilos: please define assumption for us
[18:27] <Ludo> inetpro all i know is that the "free internet" and bbm is a great marketing move.
[18:27] <Kilos> lol
[18:28]  * inetpro didn't think it had anything to do with riots 
[18:28] <Kilos> he assumed his pants were down and they werent
[18:28] <inetpro> eish
[18:29] <inetpro> not that one
[18:29] <Kilos> the act of taking for granted
[18:29] <Kilos> Maaz, define assumption
[18:29] <Maaz> Kilos: Assumption \As*sump"tion\ (?; 215), n. [OE. assumpcioun a taking up into heaven, L. assumptio a taking, fr. assumere: cf. F. assomption. See {Assume}.] 1. The act of assuming, or taking to or upon one's self; the act of taking up or adopting. [1913 Webster]  The assumption of authority.          --Whewell. [1913 Webster]  2. The act of taking for granted, or supposing a thing without proof; supposition; unwarrantable claim. [1913 Web
[18:31] <inetpro> “When you assume, you make an ass out of u and me.” ~ Oscar Wilde
[18:31] <Ludo> *grin*
[18:31] <inetpro> “But when assumptions are sometimes true. Then you're the ass, not me. ” ~ Bryan Yeo
[18:31] <inetpro> :-)
[18:32] <Kilos> lol
[18:33] <inetpro> ok, ok, enough joking around
[18:33] <inetpro> what was the topic?
[18:33] <Ludo> inetpro it reminds me of another quote "the great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from"
[18:34] <Ludo> inetpro xmpp and who uses it.
[18:35] <inetpro> Ludo: is it important?
[18:36] <Kilos> hey fellas, i go sleep now. you all be good. and sleep tight
[18:37] <Ludo> depends who you are, but i don't think it is for any body here.
[18:37] <Ludo> gnight Kilos
[18:37] <inetpro> Kilos: good night
[18:37] <Ludo> inetpro what would you rather talk about?
[18:38] <inetpro> hmm... 
[18:38] <inetpro> I don't really mind the topic
[18:38]  * inetpro is having a lazy Saturday evening
[18:39] <Ludo> well i'm doing my unisa assignment, so i just want something interesting to talk about.
[18:40] <inetpro> Ludo: what is the assignment about?
[18:41] <Ludo> Human-computer interaction
[18:41] <inetpro> ahh
[18:41] <inetpro> sounds interesting
[18:42] <Ludo> and seeing i have been working in the industry for 5 years+ now and been and multiple companies i wonder if anybody in south africa really cares about it.
[18:42] <inetpro> Ludo: btw, the XMPP Standards Foundation is at http://xmpp.org/ with lot of interesting info there
[18:42] <Ludo> Its more something the R&D department at Apple will care about
[18:43] <inetpro> Ludo: I disagree
[18:43] <Ludo> inetpro thanks i looked at it very activly a couple of years ago but like a said... no one hear will really be interested in it.
[18:43] <Ludo> inetpro why? please share!
[18:43] <inetpro> I think it's time that we wake up and make it our own problem to think about
[18:43] <inetpro> don't wait for others to start innovating
[18:44] <Ludo> inetpro i will not disagree on that but i don't know of a RSA company that will spend money on it. Ok i have spent my companies time ons some UI elements but nothing at the level the text book assume one needs to spend time on it.
[18:45] <inetpro> sure thing, it's a sad state of affairs but we need to turn that around
[18:45] <Ludo> to be honest i see a very little time being spent on tried and tested methodologies for application development. But maybe it is just me.
[18:46] <inetpro> with the floss philosophy behind us anybody can get involved at any level
[18:46] <inetpro> no matter where you are and no matter who you are
[18:46] <Ludo> inetpro i was at JSinSA and there was some companies that looked like they are more focused on text book stuff.
[18:47] <inetpro> JSinSA?
[18:47] <Ludo> Javascript in South Africa: http://www.jsinsa.com/jsinsa/index.aspx
[18:47] <kbmonkey> cheers folks im going out, have fun 
[18:48] <inetpro> kbmonkey: have a good night
[18:48] <Ludo> night kbmonkey
[18:48] <kbmonkey> you too inetpro and Ludo
[18:48] <Ludo> inetpro but maybe I'm also restricting myself by only wanting to work in the 012 area
[18:49] <inetpro> Ludo: I'd say there is enough scope for anybody who wants to make a difference to get involved no matter where you are
[18:50] <inetpro> it's just easier said than done
[18:51] <Ludo> inetpro agreed but I have some ideas I'm throwing around but its hard with a fulltime job, part time studies etc.
[18:51] <inetpro> the sad part is that companies in this country are not very helpful yet
[18:52]  * Ludo quickly google for ocr software
[18:52] <inetpro> they are generally still very unaware of the modern way of doing things and try to re-invent the wheel way to often
[18:54] <Ludo> inetpro i really agree on the whole re-invent of the wheel thing!
[18:55] <Ludo> but that is a south african mentality(or maybe even human) I can see it in alot of groups not just tech
[18:59] <inetpro> IMHO most businesses out there should have their own internal IT folk on a payroll
[19:01] <inetpro>  While not every company would be able to keep everyone busy at all times they should allow their IT gurus to take part in FLOSS projects outside of the company in a transparent way and let them grow their own knowledge and help grow other's knowledge around them
[19:02] <Ludo> inetpro I'm one of those internal IT folks ;)
[19:02] <Ludo> And to be honest I'm to busy to work on FLOSS projects on company time.
[19:02] <Ludo> But I activly try to make FLOSS software part of my env.
[19:03] <Ludo> but atlast i joined the company a year to late and decision was made on the tech to use.
[19:03] <Ludo> and now we are feeling the pain.
[19:04] <inetpro> eish
[19:04] <Ludo> but to be honest other tech choices like perl and erlang was also made and that did not turn out to great.
[19:05] <Ludo> coming to think of it we work with a lot of FLOSS products I'm just on the wrong team :P
[19:07] <Ludo> The biggest thing is business looks at some key people to make their IT dicussion and the story always goes nobody have ever been fired for choosing Oracle, Microsoft etc. 
[19:09] <inetpro> haha
[19:09] <inetpro> that's very easy to say that
[19:10] <Ludo> well do you disagree?
[19:11] <inetpro> way to many peeps are making uninformed decisions in the first place
[19:11] <inetpro> and it is up to you and me to put that right
[19:12] <inetpro> a lot of decisions are made based on clever marketing and powerful branding 
[19:13] <inetpro> rather than basing decision on what the business needs 
[19:14] <Ludo> agreed. But how do you tell a company trust me, rather then organization x with their 1000 employees and big clients?
[19:14] <Ludo> for me to make decission i need to know of companies or people that can pick up where I have left if a bus hits me tonight
[19:15] <Ludo> for example show me a company in gauteng that will support python development?
[19:16] <inetpro> I'm sure they are around somewhere we just don't know about them
[19:18] <Ludo> inetpro if you look on the gpugsa group you will see i'm not alone in search of a company that can do that.
[19:18] <inetpro> gpugsa?
[19:20] <inetpro> ahh Gauteng Python User Group
[19:20] <Ludo> yip
[19:20] <inetpro> that is sad
[19:20] <Ludo> that is reality ;)
[19:21] <inetpro> how long has gpugsa been around?
[19:21] <Ludo> but don't let my negative opinion get you under. I personally have some plans and goals.
[19:21] <Ludo> another nice quote: "life is what happens while we are making plans"
[19:22] <inetpro> :-)
[19:26] <inetpro> Ludo: make no mistake I share a lot of your sentiments but we can not keep doing the same things and expect to get different results , so we will need your plans
[19:27] <Ludo> maybe a freelance gauteng job board will be a good project. 
[19:28] <inetpro> oh and Ludo don't fall for the argument that company x with 1000 employees can ever walk into your business and continue where you left off
[19:28] <inetpro> life is not that simple
[19:28] <Ludo> inetpro i know we have a big contract with company x for support and it is worth nothing in my opinion
[19:29] <Ludo> but it gives management some kind of "comfort"
[19:29] <Ludo> inetpro "life is not that simple" meaning?
[19:29] <inetpro> sure and I know some peeps who love that kind of thinking myself
[19:30] <inetpro> Ludo: every business is unique
[19:30] <inetpro> and companies should invest in their people rather than in products
[19:31] <inetpro> products change all the time
[19:32] <Ludo> investing in your people instead of products is a whole other ball game then just tech.
[19:33] <Ludo> and by investing what do you mean: salary, benefits, training, working env, opertunities?
[19:33] <inetpro> people will find solutions if you invest in them
[19:33] <inetpro> Ludo: exactly
[19:34] <Ludo> because if you mean training our company does that, but then you sign yourself to the company for x amount of time. yes you can buy yourself out. but at my level i pay for my studies myself.
[19:34] <inetpro> Ludo: that is called bribery in my eyes
[19:35] <Ludo> salary is normally decided by the board(or in my case manager and the board needs to aprove it) if I jump ship now I will get a pay increase of note and my current company can not compete because the board does not allow it.
[19:35] <inetpro> while I understand that companies want return on investment there's a fine line that companies should not step over
[19:37] <Ludo> so managers rather makes plans with contracts and big cash upfront(easier to negatiote with the board then a big salary increase) and then you sign yourself away for a year or to aswell. but there is risk for the employee and employer in this scenario aswell.
[19:37] <Ludo> for work env i would love to work from home but i need to do support for in house software aswell.
[19:37] <Ludo> so what investments will you like companies to make?
[19:38] <inetpro> hmm... 
[19:40] <Ludo> so for example we are ineed of a developer...
[19:40] <inetpro> Ludo: you can either light a fire underneath people or you can light a fire within them
[19:41] <Ludo> and have activly been interviewing and searching for someone. We actually employed someone last year and the person was not capable to understand what we want from him. but he was a good guy.
[19:41] <Ludo> So we are two devs using this "sucky"(in my opinion) tech but we need another guy and actually a dba aswell.
[19:42] <inetpro> well I guess it is easier said than done
[19:43] <Ludo> I'm trying to convince management to employ two juniors and we will try to teach them the skills they need. But after one year they will jump because they now have experience.
[19:43] <inetpro> that argument is wrong
[19:43] <Ludo> so actually when we employ them we already need to think of a "plan" on how we will give them increases to keep them with us.
[19:43] <inetpro> you should be happy when people jump because of new experience that they gained
[19:43] <Ludo> (if they are capable)
[19:44] <Ludo> inetpro I agree but the company that spent a lot of money to train them and get them up to speed still needs people to maintain their system.
[19:45] <inetpro> you will find that many people will rather stay if you allow them to grow and gain experience 
[19:45] <Ludo> agreed.
[19:46] <inetpro> I think IT folk are generally stretched beyond a healthy state
[19:46] <Ludo> but the business needs old system x y and z up and running and that is "boring" in geek terms so how do they keep people to maintain that systems and still grow and gain experience?
[19:46] <Ludo> :)
[19:47] <inetpro> we need more people to cover for each other in different areas
[19:47] <inetpro> rather than depending on single individuals to know it all
[19:48] <inetpro> while saying that I know it is not easy and many IT guys that I know thrive on their own
[19:48] <inetpro> or rather many of them find it very difficult to work in a team
[19:48] <Ludo> inetpro the problem is not always even on the IT side but one the IT people to know the business problems and that is hard, for most IT guys.
[19:49] <inetpro> true
[19:49] <inetpro> that is why the company x solution can not work
[19:50] <inetpro> they generally don't care about your business, they care about your money
[19:51] <Ludo> Well i sit with a problem where we have a arcitect that is the dream keeper, he is also very involved in the tech we use but also don't want to be to involved in the internals(See the problem here). He is a very smart guy and have a good understanding of tech, but also a big crittic of the tech industry.
[19:51] <Ludo> inetpro and to be honnest how am i different?
[19:51] <inetpro> ?
 they generally don't care about your business, they care about your money
[19:52] <inetpro> Ludo: are you just in it for the money?
[19:53] <Ludo> i care about my salary, yes because i'm more on the frontline of the business to make my life simpler and to increase my salary(bonus) i'm more interested in the business but I learned to program because I wanted to write games. Now i'm writing ERP systems.
[19:54] <inetpro> life is not just about money
[19:54] <Ludo> inetpro to say yes i would just be lying. But to be honest the business also just see me as a tool. I joined a R&D department with promises of perl and python and unix systems. I'm now stuck with a sucky windows platform and visual programming langauge i personally hate.
[19:55] <inetpro> that is just sad
[19:56] <Ludo> and I did raise this concerns with my managers and they understand my problem, but I must also understand their problem. They have a big system the whole company uses that someone needs to maintain and undestand... and I'm one of he unlucky guys ;)
[19:56] <Ludo> and don't get me wrong the first year on the system was interesting... but the last 8 months not so much :P
[19:56] <inetpro> eish
[19:58] <Ludo> and its unfair but with my very vocal ways have i been branded a bit as a complainer... which is not right but also not wrong. I should rather come up with solutions.
[19:58] <inetpro> Ludo: get another hobby
[19:58] <Ludo> and trust me I'm activly trying.
[19:58] <Ludo> inetpro *grin* you just reminded me of a quote my dad use to share...
[19:59] <Ludo> "If you want to be happy with your life make your hobby your job" I would agree with it but only with one change: "Don't make your only hobby your job"!
[19:59] <inetpro> sometimes you just have to be patient
[19:59] <Ludo> inetpro tech is who and what I am... that makes me good at my job :)
[20:00] <inetpro> Ludo: tech is not everything 
[20:00] <Ludo> or so I have been told, I personally feel very stupid!
[20:00] <Ludo> you can see it in my use of language :P
[20:02] <Ludo> inetpro I agree and I try to maintain a active social life and do other stuff.
[20:02] <inetpro> Ludo: it's very good to be passionate about your job but sometimes you just need to step outside of your comfort zone
[20:02] <Ludo> inetpro for example?
[20:03] <inetpro> get involved in something else
[20:04] <Ludo> inetpro that takes time... time i don't have with studies and work.
[20:04] <inetpro> don't worry, you'll get there
[20:05] <Ludo> you must understand i'm sitting at home on a saterday night complaining to you and doing a assignment while friends are out at news cafe.
[20:06] <Ludo> Because this thing should be done by monday with 2 other assignments follwing him next monday and all I rather want to do is learn more about the google closure library!
[20:06] <inetpro> hah, forget about what others do, it's not really important
[20:06] <Ludo> oh and go out with my friends :P
[20:07]  * inetpro should stop wasting Ludo's time
[20:07] <Ludo> no! I enjoy the conversastion!
[20:08] <Ludo> btw do you think it is unrealistic to insist on the operating system I use at my job?
[20:08]  * Ludo starts a new topic
[20:08] <inetpro> Ludo: that might be a tough one
[20:09] <Ludo> because I have been acticly trying to use ubuntu as my OS of choice since 2008 and I have been stucked on windows for the last 3 years
[20:09] <Ludo> *activly
[20:10] <inetpro> try getting a 2nd system on which you can proove that you can do better while using it
[20:10] <inetpro> or on which you can proove that you can continue doing what you do while you can also do more 
[20:11]  * Ludoza oops! memo to self: do not touch the wifi button.
[20:11] <inetpro> hmm, did we loose Ludo somewhere?
[20:12] <inetpro> Ludo, Ludoza: you still here?
[20:13] <Ludoza> inetpro yip your last msg was "<inetpro> try getting a 2nd system on which you can proove that you can do better while using it"
[20:13] <inetpro> or on which you can proove that you can continue doing what you do while you can also do more 
[20:14] <Ludoza> inetpro at my current position the biggest problem is that ugly dev env using a vpl based on .net the ide is a resource hog and needs the latest and greatest .net/windows env.
[20:14] <inetpro> Ludoza: you can really do everything from within Ubuntu or most other linux distro
[20:14] <Ludoza> and by resource hog I'm talking about 2 gig memory usage.
[20:15] <Ludoza> +
[20:15] <Ludoza> i have also activly tried to get the ide running in wine
[20:15] <inetpro> Ludoza: you might even find that it can be faster in a terminal session, have you tried?
[20:15]  * Ludoza loves terminal sessions
[20:15] <Ludoza> if it can not be done in a command prompt it should not be available in a UI
[20:16] <inetpro> have you tried it in a rdesktop session yet?
[20:17] <Ludoza> mmm that is maybe not a bad idea... install a windows box on our dev vmware server and use that as my env...
[20:17] <inetpro> yep
[20:17] <Ludoza> will need to bribe some admins but that might just work
[20:18] <Ludoza> but the biggest argument is why would I want to do that?
[20:18]  * inetpro loves rdesktop
[20:18] <Ludoza> why don't I just use windows.
[20:19] <Ludoza> and thinking of it now because the ide is based on .net it uses the new gfx engine of .net not the old win32 stuff and that renders badly on a remote dekstop session. but I will have a look again.
[20:20] <Ludoza> because the new .net gfx stuff is directx hardware accelerated
[20:20] <inetpro> eish, what a bad idea
[20:20] <Ludoza> ooh btw did anybody have a look at the new open gl specs?
[20:22] <inetpro> Ludoza: have you noticed that MS is moving towards full HTML 5 on the desktop?
[20:23] <Ludoza> yip some big just guy last year even said they are dropping silverlight and will be working to HTML 5 more.
[20:24] <Ludoza> and a lot fo developers very unhappy because people felt it might be the next vb6
[20:24] <inetpro> yep
[20:24] <Ludoza> but they still have a roadmap set for silverlight and the tech surouding it(it is the same tech i'm calling the new gfx engine :P)
[20:25] <inetpro> hmm...
[20:25] <Ludoza> WPF there is the correct name
[20:27] <inetpro> Well like someone wrote, the company has never exactly been good at picking a direction for its development strategy and sticking with it.
[20:27] <Ludoza> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Presentation_Foundation
[20:29] <Ludoza> inetpro but ms is focusing a lot on XAML
[20:31] <Ludoza> i don't think the whole html 5 promise will become true also with silverlight 5 they will support 3d undermining the whole webgl efforts. There also a lot fo taks where Microsoft and Adobe was very unhelpful in the drafting of html 5 etc, and a lot of poeple said it was delay tactics for business pruposes.
[20:32] <inetpro> well, I'll rather focus on a stable *nix environment than getting involved in to much FUD
[20:33] <Ludoza> but I don't think microsoft is the evil Embrace, extend and extinguish of the 90 but one must remember they are a corp and like any business they want to make profit. They are in it for the money.
[20:33] <Ludoza> and unlike you and me they believe money is everything ;)
[20:33] <inetpro> sure
[20:34] <Ludoza> well with the chrome and firefox market share on the web open standards must just keep on swimming
[20:34] <inetpro> don't worry, we'll keep fighting the war :-)
[20:35] <Ludoza> and the ie team even sends mozilla cakes: http://techie-buzz.com/tech-news/ie-team-sends-mozilla-a-cake-again-for-firefox-5-launch.html
[20:35] <inetpro> and the big war is all about giving the small player a chance in the market
[20:35] <Ludoza> talking about cake... when is the next ubuntu cake :P
[20:35] <inetpro> hah
[20:35] <inetpro> I wonder
[20:36] <Ludoza> you must remember I forgot how you look but I know i must link the name inetpro to ubuntu cake! I loved it !
[20:36] <inetpro> :-)
[20:37] <Ludoza> it looks to me if I quickly google for it I need to go to cape town for cake... i never actually been in cape town the closes I have been is george.
[20:37] <inetpro> I'll have to see how things go
[20:38] <inetpro> would be nice if we could get a large team in Pretoria for a change
[20:38] <Ludoza> i was at a release party last year somewhere still at the karoo cafe, but seeing i'm not activly using ubuntu a lost a bit of touch.
[20:39] <inetpro> I guess we'll have to work on that
[20:40] <superfly> yeesh, you guys are chatting tonight
[20:40] <inetpro> superfly: heh
[20:41]  * superfly is a bit busy with things
[20:41] <Ludoza> yea superfly my plan is to join the channel chat for one whole night and then do it again in 6 months :P
[20:41] <inetpro> superfly: I was hoping that you would step in and help me out here
[20:42] <Ludoza> glug is dead as always!
[20:42] <superfly> inetpro: I haven't even had time to read all the backlog!
[20:43] <Ludoza> superfly don't worry rather just start with a new topic!
[20:43] <inetpro> Ludoza: don't you have some assignment to finish?
[20:43] <Ludoza> maybe talk about some pipe dream how we can get people involved etc, like using the khan acamdy
[20:43] <Ludoza> *acadamy
[20:44] <Ludoza> set it up on these 30 2.4 ghz celeron machines i have in my garage and deliver it to communities that needs it.
[20:44] <Ludoza> Eduction is key for South Africa.
[20:47] <Ludoza> or maybe we should capaign to Unisa and other varsities rather to teach students Libra Office instead of MS Office 2007
[20:50] <inetpro> Ludoza: now that would be cool if you could pull that off
[20:51] <inetpro> but it's LibreOffice not Libra Office
[20:53] <Ludoza> well by the looks of it unisa teaches the poor kids(and adults) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Computer_Driving_Licence
[20:53] <Ludoza> its sort of compulsory and by the looks of it the course is vendor neutral
[20:53] <Ludoza> there is just not a lot of course ware using alternative systems
[20:54] <Ludoza> but there might be hope: http://www.icdl.org.za/products_detail.php?id=6&PHPSESSID=ubu69pnfotj76ecs6vsogfabm1
[20:56] <inetpro> hmm... I wonder
[20:57] <inetpro> if they start talking about Open Office rather than OpenOffice.org and or LibreOffice I loose all hope
[20:57] <Ludoza> So my SO is doing the module this year will ask her for her email addresses and then maybe draft something to send to them.
[20:58] <Ludoza> and then try to get the rest of ubuntu-za behind it.
[20:58] <Ludoza> inetpro the big thing is it takes years for the course ware to "upgrade" get revised. My SO did Office 2007 this year
[20:59] <Ludoza> so OOo is already a step in the right direction.
[20:59] <inetpro> SO?
[20:59] <Ludoza> significant other
[20:59] <inetpro> ahh
[21:00] <Ludoza> just think how fun it would be to have this channel flooded with students wanting help with their homework ;)
[21:01] <Ludoza> you and superfly will have your handsful!
[21:02]  * superfly already has his hands full with a 2 year old
[21:02]  * inetpro is falling asleep
[21:03] <Ludoza> inetpro go to bed then I can finish my last to question
[21:03] <Ludoza> *s
[21:03] <inetpro> Ludoza: you better come back more often than just every 6 months
[21:04] <inetpro> was fun chatting 
[21:04] <Ludoza> then i will rework my plagiarism tomorrow and submit it!
[21:04] <Ludoza> inetpro yip thanks for the company
[21:05] <inetpro> good night
[21:05] <Ludoza> gn
[21:05] <Ludoza> so superfly what py web framework have you been exploring recently?
[21:05] <superfly> Pyramid
[21:06]  * Ludoza loves the pyramid documenation
[21:06] <Ludoza> but i still need to use it for something "big" most of my stuff is a bottle prototype and before I can stop it its in production somewhere :/
[21:07] <Ludoza> have you ever looked a bottle.py?
[21:07] <Ludoza> the only true micro web framework... don't even start with flask!
[21:53] <superfly> Ludoza: but with a micro web framework you have to do a lot of stuff yourself that is already built into the "bigger" frameworks
[21:53] <superfly> and Pyramid is only slightly heavier than bottle
[22:13] <superfly> fp