| astraljava | Yeah I saw some email correspondence related to that. Nice! | 09:24 |
|---|---|---|
| ailo | Anyone else notice how much Ubuntu is starting to adjust towards mac? Single click indicators. Now I noticed you can't delete files in Nautilus using the DEL button. You have to right click and choose "move to trash" | 12:29 |
| falktx | ailo: have you seen gnome3 ? | 12:31 |
| falktx | that's a full blown copy | 12:31 |
| falktx | (of mac) | 12:31 |
| ailo | You think so? | 12:31 |
| falktx | ailo: ubuntu has unity, which I like and feels a bit original | 12:31 |
| ailo | I've only used it a little | 12:31 |
| falktx | ailo: gnome3 is a ripoff of mac | 12:31 |
| * falktx looks for screens | 12:31 | |
| ailo | Isn't Unity a simplified rip-off of Gnome3? | 12:32 |
| falktx | ailo: no, unity is made from scratch | 12:32 |
| falktx | it uses gtk3, but not gnome itself | 12:32 |
| falktx | ailo: note the mac preferences - http://www.demogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Mac-OSX-System-Preferences.jpg | 12:33 |
| falktx | ailo: now look at gnome 3 -> http://ompldr.org/vODNhaw/gnome_3_settings.png | 12:34 |
| ailo | It's the same in Unity | 12:34 |
| ailo | They are using Gnome3 as base now | 12:34 |
| falktx | ailo: ah, yes, but gnome3 != gnome3-shell | 12:35 |
| ailo | Right | 12:35 |
| falktx | Personal and Hardware are the top things in the screenshots | 12:35 |
| falktx | ailo: gnome3 also copied the mac way of showing dialogs (not a new window, but slide from the top) | 12:35 |
| ailo | It does seem a lot of mac functionality is being used | 12:37 |
| ailo | And installing Ubuntu on a mac should feel more natural | 12:37 |
| ailo | The system settings part is pretty good in my opinion | 12:37 |
| ailo | The "power button menu" in the top right how has more options | 12:38 |
| ailo | System settings, updates.. | 12:38 |
| ailo | I'm happy someone made a indicator version of the hardware monitor applate | 12:39 |
| ailo | applet* | 12:39 |
| ailo | What I like about both Gnome3 and Unity is the menu | 12:40 |
| falktx | I don't like gnome3 | 12:40 |
| ailo | Well, you are a KDE guy | 12:41 |
| falktx | the systray is the worse thing I ever saw | 12:41 |
| ailo | I don't really care too much about mac. As long as the desktop is functional | 12:43 |
| astraljava | ailo: Please keep in mind, though, that ubuntu != GNOME | 13:09 |
| astraljava | Granted, the vanilla uses that exclusively, but Canonical people don't make those decisions | 13:09 |
| ailo | True. Ubuntu is not Gnome3. But, Unity looks very similar to Gnome3 | 13:24 |
| astraljava | I can imagine. But I'm not willing to see it for myself. :D | 13:33 |
| astraljava | Guess I will have to, though, in order to keep providing support on #ubuntu. (granted, very sporadic) | 13:34 |
| falktx | hm, who is Cory? | 17:49 |
| falktx | (ie, his nickname) | 17:49 |
| ailo | falktx, ckontros I think | 18:04 |
| * falktx wonders why he's not on irc | 18:04 | |
| ailo | falktx, He may be, but not logged into this channel. | 18:05 |
| falktx | ok | 18:06 |
| falktx | I'll be sad to not see US oneiric | 18:07 |
| falktx | at least we should try | 18:07 |
| astraljava | Cory is the previous Studio head. | 18:13 |
| astraljava | The one that got the thing going. | 18:14 |
| falktx | oh | 18:15 |
| astraljava | But yeah. That's his opinion. He's not the head anymore, so that's only one vote. The team will still decide. | 18:16 |
| ailo | Yeah, he proceeds as if he's the one who calls all the shots :P | 18:23 |
| falktx | but his proposal is exactly what I'm trying to do with KXStudio | 18:23 |
| falktx | if US would take that action, my guess it's that we could no longer call it "UbuntuStudio" | 18:23 |
| ailo | I would prefer US to be just a tuneup of Ubuntu | 18:24 |
| ailo | I've said that before | 18:24 |
| falktx | I would to | 18:25 |
| falktx | I want to make KXStudio like an extension of Ubuntu[Studio] | 18:26 |
| falktx | I will force people to start saying "I'm using Ubuntu", not "I'm using KXStudio", which is no longer a distro | 18:26 |
| falktx | at least this can help US a little | 18:26 |
| * falktx still needs to finish the website | 18:27 | |
| ailo | A live CD would be great though | 18:27 |
| falktx | oh, yes, totally | 18:28 |
| falktx | one thing at a time | 18:28 |
| falktx | I promised ScottL I would help US with a live-cd and I will do that | 18:28 |
| ailo | What's the problem with getting US to base on Xubuntu now? | 18:29 |
| falktx | no one | 18:29 |
| falktx | I think it's a wise move | 18:29 |
| falktx | gnome3 and unity are not suited to multimedia production | 18:29 |
| astraljava | IMHO, he gave up. If the rest of the team won't do that, we're fine. | 18:29 |
| falktx | cool | 18:29 |
| astraljava | But we do need reinforcements. | 18:29 |
| ailo | I don't agree, but XFCE is still a good chooce | 18:29 |
| astraljava | Lots of fresh blood. | 18:30 |
| ailo | falktx, How do you make your iso's? | 18:30 |
| ailo | Can't we just copy Xubuntu and make some very small changes to it? | 18:31 |
| astraljava | We got the ball rolling again just the other day, in a conversation between holstein, ailo, ScottL and yours truly. We'll make it. | 18:31 |
| falktx | ailo: I have a script for that. I create a debian chroot, install packages, and pack it into an ISO | 18:31 |
| astraljava | ailo: That thing is under works, and should be testable (is that a word?) soon-ish. Before the beta1 anyway. | 18:32 |
| ailo | I really don't think it matters so much how the desktop looks, or what panels we use, as long as we have a working distro | 18:32 |
| ailo | As littel changes as possible, I think | 18:32 |
| ailo | At the same time, I have no idea about tuning a distro for multimedia on a lower level, which US used to be good at, I guess | 18:33 |
| ailo | Performance is the most important issue. To get stable performance | 18:34 |
| ailo | That is why I always thought -lowlatency was important | 18:34 |
| ailo | The live ISO would just serve as an example anyway | 18:35 |
| ailo | And if you can't get stable performance installing the packages from the main repo, it sucks a bit, I think | 18:36 |
| ailo | XFCE would in my view only be one way to go | 18:36 |
| ailo | The user should be able to use any derivative, and just by installing the US meta packages be able to get a good system for multimedia | 18:38 |
| ailo | So, I agree with both falktx and ckontros | 18:38 |
| ailo | Who's working on the iso, then? | 18:39 |
| falktx | currently no one | 18:40 |
| ailo | Xubuntu has two iso's. One is live, and one is alternate | 18:41 |
| ailo | How hard would it be to just copy the Xubuntu live CD, and adjust the preinstalled packages? | 18:42 |
| ailo | Of course, I realize you need to change a few things here and there | 18:42 |
| falktx | later | 18:43 |
| astraljava | ailo: That's why we never considered live-cd/dvd so important. It wouldn't necessarily deliver the same performance. But these days, people got tons of RAM. It might work. | 20:07 |
| holstein | astraljava: i agree, we can make it | 20:08 |
| holstein | cory is not in here | 20:08 |
| astraljava | The branding used to be the reason, together with the already available set of packages to do most everything a multimedia-related worker needed to do. | 20:08 |
| astraljava | holstein: We can. I'm a bit worried for 12.04, as it's an LTS, and it should be S-O-L-I-D. | 20:09 |
| astraljava | But, with a good 11.10, we could deliver. | 20:10 |
| holstein | i mean, i brought that up before too | 20:11 |
| holstein | going to just PPA's | 20:11 |
| holstein | just meta packages | 20:11 |
| holstein | thats something we could discuss again | 20:11 |
| holstein | astraljava: im a fan of the live CD installer for a couple reasons | 20:12 |
| holstein | firstly, testing... folks can see how the hardware will work with JACK | 20:12 |
| holstein | the installation process too from the alternate CD is not friendly | 20:12 |
| holstein | i have not talked to *any* person who flawlessly install 11.04 from the ubuntustudio CD | 20:13 |
| holstein | over in #ubuntustudio | 20:13 |
| astraljava | holstein: Yeah, but then again, people can see whether their hw works with vanilla live cd. Studio doesn't necessarily be used for that. | 20:13 |
| holstein | astraljava: not really | 20:13 |
| astraljava | We would certainly not be using PPAs for that. | 20:13 |
| holstein | JACK is not there, and if we have a -lowlatency kernel, you can test that from the live CD | 20:13 |
| astraljava | They're bound to be out of official support, always. | 20:13 |
| holstein | astraljava: +, we are literally the only multimedia distro thats *not* live | 20:14 |
| astraljava | Okay, valid points, there. | 20:14 |
| ailo | astraljava, There will be no loss in performance whatsoever with a live CD | 20:14 |
| holstein | i think new users expect to see the tools live | 20:14 |
| holstein | i know i do | 20:14 |
| astraljava | I don't care about being "out there" or not. Every distro does it their own way. | 20:14 |
| astraljava | ailo: There will, unless you can fit everything needed into RAM. | 20:14 |
| holstein | sure... but, i really agree with the reasoning, so thats why i suggest it | 20:15 |
| holstein | i would have never gotten over the hump so to speak without the 64studio live CD | 20:15 |
| holstein | 2.whatever | 20:15 |
| astraljava | holstein: I understand that it would be great to have that possibility. | 20:15 |
| holstein | i see lots of that in the support channel too | 20:15 |
| holstein | most everyone | 20:15 |
| holstein | "i installed ubuntustudio and its not doing whatever" | 20:16 |
| holstein | "it sucks, i hate it" | 20:16 |
| holstein | and some of that is opinion for sure | 20:16 |
| ailo | astraljava, The only difference is that loading programs takes longer time. I don't count that as a loss in performance | 20:16 |
| ailo | The programs still run just as fast | 20:16 |
| holstein | but, i feel like some of it could be made easier for them | 20:16 |
| astraljava | Sure. Ubuntu has a name. It's fashionable to diss it. | 20:16 |
| holstein | them = the new user | 20:16 |
| holstein | unless we dont care about them | 20:16 |
| holstein | which is fine too | 20:16 |
| holstein | just take a stand as a technical level tool | 20:17 |
| astraljava | Oh, but we do care. It's always just been a balance between what we can deliver, and who we have to leave out. | 20:17 |
| holstein | astraljava: that makes sense | 20:17 |
| holstein | what we *can* do | 20:17 |
| holstein | somewhere in the middle | 20:17 |
| holstein | i mean, ubuntu proper is/has been really good at filling that gap of something for the new user | 20:18 |
| holstein | and i think ubuntustudio has been that too | 20:18 |
| astraljava | I mean, IMHO, Studio would be a leading distro, if we had thrice the developers we have had. | 20:18 |
| astraljava | But at most, there has been like 3 at the time. | 20:18 |
| holstein | astraljava: im looking into what it would take for us to transition to official | 20:19 |
| holstein | like kubuntu | 20:19 |
| astraljava | We're already official. | 20:19 |
| holstein | not really though | 20:20 |
| holstein | paid developers work on kubuntu | 20:20 |
| astraljava | Together with Xubuntu, Kubuntu, and Mythbuntu. | 20:20 |
| holstein | and we dont have that | 20:20 |
| holstein | i *thought* we were too | 20:20 |
| astraljava | But we're the only ones that are supported on #ubuntu. | 20:20 |
| astraljava | Paid is a different thing. | 20:21 |
| astraljava | That's up to Mark. | 20:21 |
| charlie-tca | Ubuntu and Kubuntu are the only ones with paid developers | 20:21 |
| astraljava | Cory was paid at one point. | 20:21 |
| holstein | yeah, im not sure what it takes yet | 20:21 |
| astraljava | But it became evident that this was not going places enough, so they dropped it. | 20:21 |
| holstein | it has been refreshing to see the xubuntu team in action charlie-tca | 20:23 |
| holstein | you guys really have it together | 20:23 |
| charlie-tca | But we are all volunteers, too | 20:23 |
| charlie-tca | We have no paid developer | 20:23 |
| charlie-tca | and for altogether, we only have two devs working on it | 20:24 |
| holstein | i keep thinking if we had a paid team member or 2, we could get something done | 20:24 |
| holstein | but, you guys do great | 20:24 |
| holstein | always have | 20:24 |
| charlie-tca | We have our ups and downs | 20:24 |
| charlie-tca | There was a big battle about three years ago that almost killed Xubuntu | 20:24 |
| holstein | i feel like maybe that happened here? | 20:24 |
| holstein | i feel like i came in on some aftermath, but maybe not | 20:25 |
| charlie-tca | I don't know. It might be | 20:25 |
| charlie-tca | we came within days of not having a distribution | 20:25 |
| astraljava | That's happened with Studio as well. | 20:25 |
| astraljava | It's not so surprising, really. | 20:26 |
| astraljava | When there's no-one who's livelihood depends on it. | 20:26 |
| astraljava | s/who's/whose/ | 20:27 |
| kubotu | astraljava meant: "When there's no-one whose livelihood depends on it." | 20:27 |
| astraljava | Right? | 20:27 |
| astraljava | Oh look at that. | 20:27 |
| charlie-tca | Right | 20:27 |
| * astraljava ^5s kubotu | 20:27 | |
| charlie-tca | When we are all volunteer, it is harder to find people to keep gooing | 20:27 |
| ailo | Or someones wet dream | 20:28 |
| charlie-tca | s/gooing/going | 20:28 |
| charlie-tca | Xubuntu went from 7 or 8 to two overnight back then' | 20:28 |
| astraljava | Sad as it is, that's the truth. | 20:28 |
| ailo | People don't usually have all the time in the world for one of their interests | 20:29 |
| astraljava | That's what shocks most of the newcomers in the OS projects. | 20:29 |
| astraljava | They're all enthusiastic and ready to conquer the world. | 20:30 |
| charlie-tca | yup, it takes a couple of very dedicated people to keep things rolling | 20:30 |
| astraljava | But the oldies... they have priorities. | 20:30 |
| astraljava | And most of the time, they clash. | 20:30 |
| astraljava | charlie-tca's right. It only takes a few. | 20:31 |
| astraljava | But good luck in finding the feww. | 20:31 |
| astraljava | -w | 20:31 |
| ailo | It's a matter of timing too I think | 20:31 |
| astraljava | That's exactly what I meant. | 20:32 |
| astraljava | Priorities. | 20:32 |
| ailo | I sometimes think perhaps it | 20:32 |
| astraljava | They're not constant. | 20:32 |
| ScottL | is this conversation derived from cory's email? | 20:32 |
| astraljava | ScottL: For sure. | 20:32 |
| ailo | astraljava, Yeah, but say 5 people might all have time at the same time, and then no one has. | 20:33 |
| astraljava | ailo: Right. That's exactly what has happened to Studio. | 20:33 |
| * ScottL hasn't actually read backsroll but saw there was much of it | 20:33 | |
| astraljava | I believe in '05-'06, Studio had it going. | 20:33 |
| ailo | ScottL, What do you think of corys post? | 20:34 |
| astraljava | But then, the downhill started. | 20:34 |
| astraljava | It hasn't really picked up since then. | 20:34 |
| ScottL | ailo, i have some thoughts about cory's email | 20:35 |
| astraljava | Back then, we had Joe, Cory, and the guy I never seem to recall | 20:35 |
| ScottL | but i would start before the email | 20:35 |
| astraljava | And some devs to boot. | 20:35 |
| ScottL | cory called me and we talked about twenty minutes on the phone | 20:35 |
| astraljava | Then the whole thing fell apart. | 20:35 |
| astraljava | Pieces only were picked since. | 20:35 |
| ScottL | he has concerns about the trajectory of the project | 20:35 |
| ScottL | especially in contrast to the history that astrajava is currently commenting | 20:36 |
| ScottL | or recalling | 20:36 |
| ScottL | cory has been an advocate for the "ppa method" for some time i believe | 20:37 |
| ScottL | and cory made a very good point to me on the phone: | 20:37 |
| ScottL | we devote an inordinate amount of time on integration, iso building, etc | 20:38 |
| ailo | ScottL, Was cory the only one working on the iso just now? | 20:38 |
| ScottL | that takes away from what he called the goal of project, "showing what this software can do" | 20:38 |
| ScottL | ailo, i'm not sure i understand your question is this a rhetorical question? | 20:39 |
| ailo | I agree with that statement. And that the iso should be mostly about that. While the meta packages should be where the focus is | 20:39 |
| ScottL | aye, ailo, that was his point | 20:39 |
| ScottL | he argument was that if we focused on using a ppa to "upgrade" from vanilla to ubuntu we focus more on packaging and less on other things | 20:40 |
| ailo | ScottL, I mean, who was leading the work on getting the iso to be based on Xubuntu? | 20:40 |
| ScottL | well, cory has made significant changes, but astraljava has likewise made significant changes | 20:40 |
| ScottL | a second aspect of cory's concern was that we have few contributors/developers and we seem to be overwhelmed (as detected by the lack of progress) | 20:41 |
| ailo | I would be fine with UbuntuStudio based on a live Xubuntu ISO, and just changing as little as needed. As long as it performs well. | 20:41 |
| astraljava | My only objection against using plain PPAs is the official support that we're having. | 20:41 |
| astraljava | We're not many. | 20:41 |
| astraljava | If we have to provide support ourselves, we're doomed. | 20:42 |
| ScottL | astraljava, you make an excellent point, on that i would have made as well if no one else did not | 20:42 |
| ScottL | oh, i wasn't going to say "we're doomed" however :P | 20:42 |
| astraljava | From my point of view, that's enough payment for the effort that we're showing during the devel cycle. | 20:43 |
| astraljava | ScottL: That's' because everything you say gets quoted in the press. :D | 20:43 |
| ScottL | lol | 20:43 |
| ScottL | i know there are several people who believe the ppa method is the route to be preferred... | 20:44 |
| ScottL | but i wanted to mention our official status and the benefits that yields | 20:44 |
| astraljava | Exactly. | 20:44 |
| astraljava | It's something far more than people really realize. | 20:44 |
| ScottL | i can see advantages and disadvantages to both sides...i do not advocate a position at this point | 20:45 |
| astraljava | Building a derivate isn't just about releasing an .iso. | 20:45 |
| ailo | I think ppa's are fine for testing. But, isn't the idea to keep the meta packages up to date as well? | 20:45 |
| astraljava | We're committing to it for 18 months at the time, a minimum. | 20:45 |
| astraljava | Sometimes even longer. | 20:46 |
| ScottL | aye, but we can choose our own release schedule for those ISO's, astraljava | 20:46 |
| astraljava | ailo: That's what we're doing. Creating meta-packages for the convenience of the users. | 20:46 |
| ScottL | we can only do LTS, or just every year, of whenever we damn well feel like it | 20:46 |
| astraljava | ScottL: True, but the packages are still bound to higher-ups' schedules. | 20:47 |
| ScottL | ailo, astraljava: cory made another point i'll mention, we can create more meta-packages in ppa to help with installation of applications based on work flows | 20:47 |
| astraljava | ScottL: Sure, but every new meta increases the workload. | 20:47 |
| ailo | ScottL, That doesn't sound like a point to me though | 20:47 |
| ScottL | astraljava, we can work more directly with back ports or choose to create a ppa for updating packages to our release version | 20:47 |
| ailo | ScottL, I want to see those workflows outlined to the detail before I agree that is a point | 20:48 |
| ScottL | the more subtle point is that we CAN move stuff into the ppa if we choose | 20:48 |
| astraljava | That's a good thing, aye. | 20:48 |
| ScottL | to an extreme that we are similar to kxstudio and pull most packages from ppa if we chose | 20:49 |
| ailo | It's a good place to do experiments | 20:49 |
| astraljava | But again, it's out of #ubuntu's scope, so not a very sought-after thing, in the end. | 20:49 |
| ScottL | again, i'm not advocating, just discussion what is possible | 20:49 |
| astraljava | That's good, keep the discussion flowing. | 20:50 |
| ailo | astraljava, So, what's missing for the iso to work? | 20:50 |
| ailo | Is there some sort of a roadmap somewhere for it? | 20:51 |
| ailo | I'm just curious on what the problem is with that | 20:51 |
| charlie-tca | ScottL: you got a good grasp on it | 20:52 |
| charlie-tca | I tried to explain the same thing to Lubuntu. Ubuntu is a tool for those of us trying to help with other derivatives | 20:52 |
| charlie-tca | It is not an iron-clad rule maker, for any of us. | 20:52 |
| ScottL | charlie-tca, thank you :) | 20:53 |
| ScottL | i fear that i have moment of clarity on specific subject only though | 20:53 |
| charlie-tca | That's all any of us get, I think. | 20:53 |
| ScottL | argh, moments... and subjects.... | 20:53 |
| astraljava | It totally depends on what you want. | 20:54 |
| astraljava | Official support? | 20:54 |
| astraljava | Play by the rules. | 20:54 |
| charlie-tca | It's when we think we have to keep up with Ubuntu that it hurts us | 20:54 |
| astraljava | More freedom? | 20:54 |
| astraljava | You're almost on your own. | 20:54 |
| charlie-tca | yes, you are. Ubuntu provides us with hosted images, and time frames that work sometimes | 20:55 |
| charlie-tca | They are also willing to fix a lot of bugs that we do not have resources to even look at. | 20:55 |
| ScottL | my main concern if we choose the ppa method is that we will loose recognition and ISO building rights that we may never claim again | 20:55 |
| ailo | astraljava, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-meta/+bug/806672 ? | 20:55 |
| ubottu | Ubuntu bug 806672 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu Oneiric) "UbuntuStudio Oneiric Alpha2 fails to install - unmet dependencies" [Critical,Triaged] | 20:55 |
| astraljava | ScottL: That's exactly right. | 20:55 |
| astraljava | ScottL: It's why I'm still fighting, to keep what we have going for us. | 20:56 |
| astraljava | ailo: Without looking, those are fixed, but not uploaded since we didn't come to an agreement of what we want to have by default. | 20:56 |
| astraljava | TheMuso: Could you upload ubuntustudio.oneiric so we can see what fails now, when new .isos are being built? | 20:58 |
| ScottL | cory also seemed a little disappointed that dev discussions had not been happening on the mailing list recently | 20:58 |
| astraljava | I will try to do the testing tomorrow, if I have time, but due to my limited bandwidth, it'll most likely have to wait until next week. | 20:58 |
| ScottL | he seemed to think this reflected activity | 20:58 |
| ScottL | i assure him it did not | 20:58 |
| ScottL | as we discuss things quite frequently here | 20:58 |
| astraljava | Yeah. Why isn't he on IRC? | 20:59 |
| ScottL | work and family...he commented that work was especially busy lately | 20:59 |
| astraljava | At least I don't have time to double everything on the ML. | 20:59 |
| astraljava | Yeah but okay, there's still irclogs.u.c | 21:00 |
| astraljava | So, people. Could you please have a look @ https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.oneiric | 21:02 |
| astraljava | Tell us, what's your opinion. What should not be there, and what should, but is not. | 21:03 |
| astraljava | We have 2 weeks until beta1. | 21:03 |
| astraljava | Nothing can be added, that's not already in oneiric repos (excluding FFes, but highly unlikely). | 21:04 |
| astraljava | But within those limits. | 21:04 |
| astraljava | Because, that's the stuff that depicts how the session will look like | 21:05 |
| astraljava | If you don't like it now, you won't like it when the release happens. | 21:05 |
| astraljava | I should probably throw it on the ML, too. | 21:06 |
| ScottL | astraljava, i think the main focus should be to get luke to update the metas so we can test an image | 21:06 |
| ScottL | just my opinion, mind you | 21:06 |
| astraljava | I know, but just in case we have overlooked something that's obvious, really. | 21:08 |
| astraljava | And I just pinged him, so we should see some results soon. | 21:08 |
| astraljava | Right, we get some ML activity. I feel we should have more of that anyway, that's one thing Cory is right about. | 21:13 |
| astraljava | Not all people can hang on IRC all the time, even though I just mentioned the logs | 21:14 |
| astraljava | There's lots of room for development. | 21:14 |
| astraljava | That's one thing. | 21:14 |
| ailo | I too think anything important should always be posted on the mail list | 21:14 |
| astraljava | The holy trinity, IMHO, is IRC - wiki - ML. | 21:15 |
| astraljava | Currently we're doing pretty well on the first two. | 21:16 |
| ScottL | i am still of the mind that clearly and consensually identify our audience and goals would help answer most of our questions of late | 21:17 |
| ScottL | it's hard to make decisions without knowing what we are trying to accomplish | 21:18 |
| ailo | I have the same view I had when I started hanging out here | 21:19 |
| ScottL | i doubt we will find easy consensus however among those present much less amongst those not present | 21:19 |
| ailo | I think US should be a tuneup of Ubuntu for multimedia. It should make Ubuntu perform well for anything multimedia and have easy ways of finding apps and documentation for them | 21:19 |
| ailo | The ISO should be a showcase. An example | 21:20 |
| astraljava | So, did we get anywhere in defining those audiences and goals? | 21:20 |
| ScottL | ailo, by "tune up" do you mean a state of being or an installing process? | 21:21 |
| ScottL | astraljava, i don't think so | 21:21 |
| ailo | ScottL, -lowlatency is an example of a package that makes Ubuntu perform better for audio use | 21:21 |
| ScottL | okay, i think i understand that | 21:22 |
| ailo | If there are additional packages/settings that are required for one to get good performance, I would count those in under the performance criteria | 21:22 |
| ailo | Then, there's guidance | 21:23 |
| ailo | Guiding the user | 21:23 |
| ailo | Which is where workflows comes in, and documentation. | 21:23 |
| ailo | As well as ubuntustudio-controls | 21:23 |
| ailo | When it comes to UI, I'm not that concerned. The simpler, the better | 21:24 |
| ailo | Let the user decide which derivative, and which UI | 21:24 |
| ailo | Of course, meta-packages for multimedia apps is helpful too | 21:24 |
| ailo | Even though, a comprehensive database might be even better | 21:25 |
| ScottL | ailo, are you expected an experienced user, both with linux and music? | 21:25 |
| ailo | A database needs to be updated for every release | 21:25 |
| ailo | No. Not at all | 21:27 |
| holstein | this is where i am... i can *totally* get behind the PPA only idea... i just feel like we discussed this back in april, and decided to do XFCE | 21:27 |
| holstein | if we are comfortable letting the work we have done go, lets entertain it | 21:27 |
| holstein | we being astraljava and others... i havent personally done much | 21:27 |
| astraljava | Yeah. That's where our expectations differ. What we currently (mostly) have, are devs who know what needs to be done package/config -wise. But we lack in the documentation people. | 21:27 |
| ailo | ppa only, to me, seems like giving up completely. Then it's just another distro | 21:27 |
| holstein | it would take a bit of pressure off | 21:28 |
| astraljava | holstein: Sure, but only temporarily. | 21:28 |
| holstein | i mean, we already decided back in april *not* to do PPA's only | 21:28 |
| holstein | and we have talked about it since then | 21:28 |
| ailo | For me, the whole point of US is to be the standard multimedia framwork for all Ubuntu based distros | 21:29 |
| astraljava | Once the support questions come piling in, we're screwed (not Scott's opinion, I know) | 21:29 |
| holstein | maybe | 21:29 |
| astraljava | And once those are left unanswered, we're practically no more. | 21:29 |
| holstein | it might help make things consistent too | 21:29 |
| holstein | i mean, no more 'did you install from the DVD?' | 21:29 |
| holstein | TBH, i usually talk people *out* of using the ubuntustudio installer | 21:29 |
| ailo | I wouldn't be interested in working on UbuntuStudio, if it was not in the main repo. Then I could just make my own ppa instead | 21:30 |
| astraljava | holstein: Doesn't matter. | 21:30 |
| holstein | new folks at least | 21:30 |
| astraljava | Either way, people in the official support channels will support ours. | 21:30 |
| astraljava | If we are to deviate from that... | 21:30 |
| holstein | ailo: would this kick it out of the main repo? | 21:30 |
| holstein | the software? | 21:30 |
| holstein | thats a deal breaker | 21:30 |
| astraljava | We can as well pack up our things and go home. | 21:30 |
| ScottL | holstein, a packages status in the repository will not change | 21:31 |
| holstein | when JACK got promoted or whatever, that really helped | 21:31 |
| ScottL | ailo, can you explain what type of user you envision using ubuntu studio? | 21:33 |
| ailo | ScottL, I think universally. | 21:33 |
| * ScottL has been thinking about the multimedia distro ecosphere lately | 21:33 | |
| ailo | ScottL, That's been my focus all along | 21:33 |
| holstein | ScottL, ailo, astraljava ... can we just do LTS releases? | 21:35 |
| ScottL | ailo, so you expect the audience to inexperienced to experienced as both linux users and musicians, is that a fair representation? | 21:35 |
| holstein | and email to that effect just came through... | 21:35 |
| astraljava | holstein: No, cause that way we won't get enough feedback for the next one. | 21:36 |
| holstein | feedback? | 21:36 |
| holstein | wheres the current feedback? | 21:36 |
| astraljava | What works, what needs to get rid off... | 21:36 |
| astraljava | Wherever Scott, you and ailo have been getting the comments from. | 21:36 |
| ScottL | we haven't really been receiving much, if any, feedback except bug reports | 21:37 |
| ScottL | astraljava, what sort of user do you expect for ubuntu studio? | 21:37 |
| ScottL | holstein, can you answer the same question as above? | 21:37 |
| astraljava | But you guys are all the time going over these "US sucks, they do this they do that, what the hell?!" | 21:38 |
| ScottL | astraljava, i think those are mainly in other IRC channels | 21:38 |
| astraljava | That's feedback. | 21:38 |
| astraljava | Not direct, but still. | 21:38 |
| astraljava | If we only have LTS releases, there's like 18 months of silence, during which we have to guess. | 21:39 |
| astraljava | Then there's the devel progress of vanilla. | 21:39 |
| astraljava | Let's face it, we're heavily leaning on them. | 21:39 |
| ScottL | astraljava, holstein, would you humor me and describe what user you see using Ubuntu Studio please? | 21:40 |
| ScottL | not what you currently see, what you expect | 21:40 |
| astraljava | Indirectly, as we're now more directly leaning on charlie-tca et al. :D | 21:40 |
| astraljava | ScottL: Don't ask me, I'm the work-horse here. :) I'm just grateful it fulfills my need of providing a recording/slight mixing of my own stuff. | 21:41 |
| ScottL | okay, i will share mine now then... | 21:41 |
| ScottL | i expect newbies, both to linux and music, to use ubuntu studio from the ISO | 21:42 |
| ScottL | i think those that become experienced will move to using vanilla ubuntu and installing their own packages, either the meta's or just packages | 21:42 |
| ailo | ScottL, I think we should be able to give newbies what they need already from any Ubuntu derivative | 21:43 |
| ScottL | i consider autostatic (and perhaps some here in channel presently) to be examples of the "experienced" users i described above | 21:43 |
| ailo | We would only need one installable meta package in Software Center | 21:43 |
| holstein | yeah... new folks to multimedia | 21:44 |
| holstein | either in general, or from ubuntu | 21:44 |
| holstein | or other linux's | 21:44 |
| ScottL | ailo, i have thought for some time that we should improve the process to "upgrade" from ubuntu | 21:44 |
| astraljava | Really. | 21:45 |
| astraljava | Moving to base from Xubuntu. | 21:45 |
| astraljava | That's almost as if you're installing from a separate .iso. | 21:45 |
| astraljava | You first spend 700MB of bandwidth of downloading the vanilla. | 21:46 |
| astraljava | Then you probably spend about 600MB of downloading XFCE packages, plus all the multimedia packages. | 21:46 |
| astraljava | And remove about half of the originally installed at the same process. | 21:47 |
| astraljava | Well okay, maybe not that. | 21:47 |
| ailo | I don't think a US meta package in software center should have any dependencies to UI | 21:47 |
| astraljava | But still. | 21:47 |
| astraljava | ailo: Really? | 21:47 |
| ailo | Absolutely | 21:47 |
| astraljava | What about the branding, then? | 21:47 |
| ailo | It's enough with some subtle changes | 21:48 |
| astraljava | We just decided to go with XFCE as a base. | 21:48 |
| astraljava | Vanilla has GNOME3, remember. | 21:48 |
| ailo | We can have that on the install iso | 21:48 |
| ailo | But, we don't need to have XFCE as a dependency on a "global" ubuntustudio meta package | 21:48 |
| astraljava | WHAT?! | 21:48 |
| ScottL | astraljava, i think ailo means that if someone were to start with lubuntu it shouldn't pull other DE packages in | 21:49 |
| astraljava | But you just stated we would go with one meta only. | 21:49 |
| astraljava | ScottL: That's why we have separate metas for -sounds, -graphics etc. | 21:49 |
| astraljava | -desktop brings in the desired DE. | 21:49 |
| ailo | No, I stated that to get a newbie to get all they need installed, all that is required is one installable meta package in software center | 21:49 |
| astraljava | But with only one meta, that cannot be delivered. | 21:50 |
| ScottL | one meta to rule them all | 21:50 |
| ailo | That meta package doesn't need to be all that is found on a US iso | 21:50 |
| astraljava | HAHAH½ | 21:50 |
| ScottL | astraljava, well one meta could depend on other meta's | 21:50 |
| ScottL | thanks for laughing astraljava :) | 21:50 |
| astraljava | :D | 21:50 |
| ScottL | perhaps ailo is suggesting a single meta package to facilitate installation for newbies | 21:51 |
| astraljava | Okay, sure, that can be provided. | 21:51 |
| ailo | I don't usually use software center myself, since I'm not a newbie | 21:51 |
| ScottL | not as a packaging decision for us to put everything into a single package | 21:51 |
| ailo | But, I assume that is the first place a newbie looks for stuff | 21:51 |
| astraljava | But let me remind you, the more *new* packages we introduce, the more work there is to maintain them all. | 21:51 |
| ScottL | a "ubuntustudio-installation-dummy" package | 21:51 |
| ailo | So, if we are to help a newbie install stuff on their Ubuntu system, we need something in the software center | 21:51 |
| ScottL | ailo, i had thought originally that -controls could do this | 21:52 |
| ailo | ScottL, To be available in the software center, you mean? | 21:52 |
| astraljava | I don't get it. Is Software Center really that different, from say, Synaptics? | 21:52 |
| ailo | Or install stuff for a newbie | 21:52 |
| ScottL | i would not say so, but i think "software center" becomes a metaphor for installing packages without using terminal | 21:53 |
| astraljava | Oh okay. | 21:53 |
| ailo | The only app I can find in software center, ubuntustudio related, is ubuntustudio-controls | 21:53 |
| ScottL | but also synaptic is not being shipped on ubuntu discs anymore i believe | 21:53 |
| ailo | Software center is more about installing programs, the way newbies think about programs | 21:54 |
| ScottL | ailo, really? you can't find any meta packages? that is surprising | 21:54 |
| ailo | It's not a substitute for synaptic, or apt. It's an abstraction | 21:54 |
| astraljava | ailo: Really? | 21:55 |
| astraljava | Then that's fucked up. | 21:55 |
| ailo | It's meant for newbies | 21:55 |
| ailo | Do any of you use it? | 21:55 |
| ailo | I don't | 21:55 |
| astraljava | But I suspected as much, as I couldn't find, for instace, sun-java6* in there, even though I had enabled partner repos. | 21:55 |
| ailo | Why? Because it's slow and hard to navigate, since I already know how to use apt and synaptic | 21:56 |
| ScottL | i think it also mimics an "app store", ala Apple | 21:56 |
| astraljava | Oh _that's_ why! | 21:56 |
| ailo | That's why an installable app there would probably be helpful for newbies. That's what I meant | 21:56 |
| ScottL | i do not use software-center as a habit | 21:57 |
| ScottL | i use terminal if i know the package name, synaptic when i do not | 21:57 |
| astraljava | ailo: Thanks for this information! Will be valuable in the future! | 21:57 |
| astraljava | ScottL: Really? That's what apt-cache search is for. :D | 21:57 |
| ScottL | i occasionally use soft-ware center just to play with it from time to time, but i don't enjoy the experience i would say | 21:58 |
| ScottL | astraljava, i have toyed with out apt commands, but tend to forget them because there really isn't much i install these days without knowing the name | 21:58 |
| ScottL | s/out/other | 21:58 |
| astraljava | Right. | 21:59 |
| ScottL | but if we expect new linux users to use ubuntu studio then i would say the ppa is not the direction that would sufficiently support them | 21:59 |
| astraljava | Indeed. | 21:59 |
| ailo | The important packages for a "global" meta package, I do believe are: -lowlatency, -controls, and a showcase of applications. | 22:00 |
| astraljava | For two reasons, that I can think of. | 22:00 |
| ScottL | and unless we made a "ubuntu studio" meta-package then i would still posit that we are not sufficiently supporting them to upgrade from vanilla | 22:00 |
| ScottL | it would appear the dvd is the closest we get to supporting newbies | 22:00 |
| astraljava | ScottL: That was the whole point in the beginning. | 22:01 |
| astraljava | "Download this .iso, burn it on a dvd, install, you're set." | 22:01 |
| ailo | Or, install this one program in Software Center | 22:01 |
| ailo | "program" I should say | 22:02 |
| ScottL | i think cory would serve a different audience, but i have not heard him say so directly | 22:02 |
| astraljava | The whole "download the vanilla, burn, get updates, install this meta-package by the package manager of choice [what do you mean 'What's a package manager? | 22:02 |
| ScottL | this is inference from conversations | 22:02 |
| astraljava | ...etc | 22:02 |
| ScottL | i mentioned the multimedia distro ecosphere before... | 22:03 |
| ailo | I'm of the opinion, that cory works from his own personal likes/dislikes | 22:03 |
| astraljava | ailo: You're right about there. | 22:03 |
| ScottL | i presume that falktx has mentioned that he will be moving to arch linux for audio? | 22:04 |
| astraljava | ailo: And I understand what you mean with this single installable program. | 22:04 |
| astraljava | ailo: It's just that we probably never get a consensus of what it should provide, exactly. | 22:04 |
| ailo | astraljava, I don't agree. Some things are absolutely necessary, some are not that important | 22:05 |
| ScottL | with falktx transitioning kxstudio to arch audio i began to explore which spaces different distros occupy | 22:05 |
| astraljava | ailo: I didn't get that impression from the last time we talked about this, when we couldn't agree whether to settle on a mainline of professionals, or every bit of the sub-culture ones. | 22:05 |
| ailo | astraljava, When it comes to workflows, I'm absolutely sure that we can find some standards to work from. Standards, not personal views | 22:06 |
| ailo | That is how I think all together about this project | 22:07 |
| astraljava | ailo: I'm glad to hear that. Like I said, I didn't get this the last time. :) Probably I was just too out of my head. :) | 22:07 |
| ailo | Workflows should be based on either "correct" ways to do things, or very common ways to do things | 22:08 |
| astraljava | ScottL: Do you have this exploration documented anywhere? | 22:08 |
| ScottL | i don't have this documented anywhere | 22:09 |
| ScottL | astraljava, perhaps i misunderstood, did you mean workflows? | 22:09 |
| astraljava | Okay, well it would be good if you did, even on very high-level, for the discussion regarding who we're going to provide for. | 22:09 |
| astraljava | No, the spaces that different distros provide for. | 22:09 |
| ScottL | it's just my general, abstract observations and thoughts | 22:10 |
| astraljava | If you call that workflows, then fine, I'm not an English-native. :) | 22:10 |
| ScottL | falktx and arch provides for high-end, hands-on installation with high configurability...the really experienced people | 22:10 |
| astraljava | ScottL: Nevertheless, extremely valuable in deciding the vector of where we are going. | 22:11 |
| ScottL | a/v linux provides what we are trying to do but can do it better and more unified with packages we can handle | 22:11 |
| ScottL | s/can/can't | 22:11 |
| ScottL | i think the only user space not actively support is newbies | 22:11 |
| holstein | yup | 22:11 |
| ScottL | an unfortunate position perhaps | 22:11 |
| holstein | i agree with that | 22:11 |
| ailo | Ubuntu is really the best platform for that as is | 22:12 |
| ScottL | i don't know how actively, recruit, or cultivate future contributors or developers from newbies | 22:12 |
| astraljava | That's why we got the praise in that poll abogani linked to. | 22:12 |
| ScottL | i don't remember that poll | 22:12 |
| astraljava | http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/481201-the-2011-top-7-best-linux-distributions-for-you | 22:13 |
| holstein | well... art of war... your strengths are your weaknesses or whatever | 22:13 |
| holstein | we just need newbie coders too :) | 22:13 |
| astraljava | And ponies. | 22:14 |
| astraljava | Pink ones. | 22:14 |
| holstein | eh... it could happen | 22:14 |
| holstein | someone working on our stuff to learn something else | 22:14 |
| ScottL | that poll may be biased | 22:15 |
| astraljava | Yeah, but most of them are interested in vanilla. | 22:15 |
| astraljava | ScottL: Certainly. | 22:15 |
| holstein | astraljava: we would need to get some higher-ups to push them here | 22:15 |
| astraljava | But at least someone out there appreciates our work. | 22:15 |
| holstein | to help us, and learn | 22:15 |
| ScottL | we have more publicity than a/v linux does | 22:15 |
| holstein | yeah, for now | 22:15 |
| astraljava | holstein: That's how I got here. dtchen forwarded me here. | 22:16 |
| holstein | i remember harrison came around wanted to make ubuntustudio the platform for mixbus | 22:16 |
| holstein | now, its AVlinux | 22:16 |
| astraljava | That's _one_ recruit in 5 years. | 22:16 |
| ScottL | going away for a bit, i'll be back in a bit | 22:16 |
| holstein | ScottL: o/ | 22:16 |
| ailo | Was thinking more about workflows | 22:16 |
| ailo | And about the "custom" panel that was planned for this release | 22:16 |
| ailo | holstein, Have you been using ladish at all? | 22:17 |
| ailo | I just installed it today. Haven't got around to try it yet | 22:17 |
| holstein | nah... not yet | 22:17 |
| holstein | i still just use JACK connect | 22:17 |
| ailo | holstein, Cause, from what I understand, you can save all open apps and connections, and then just load them for next time | 22:18 |
| holstein | thats the plan | 22:18 |
| holstein | can we use it? | 22:18 |
| holstein | is it in debian upstream? | 22:18 |
| ailo | It's in the oneiric repos now | 22:19 |
| ailo | repo* | 22:19 |
| holstein | cool | 22:19 |
| ailo | It would make sense to base audio based workflows on that. | 22:19 |
| ailo | All we need is saved templates for different types of audio work | 22:20 |
| ailo | That would also showcase some applications at the same time | 22:20 |
| ailo | Perfect for newbies, if you aks me | 22:20 |
| astraljava | ailo: It would make writing the docs all the more easier as well. | 22:20 |
| ailo | astraljava, I do think we need to start with documenting the workflows. Someone needs to create templates for different multimedia tasks, and write them down | 22:21 |
| ailo | That's what I think | 22:21 |
| ailo | I like the idea of having -controls as an indicator application | 22:22 |
| ailo | An US-logo in the indicator tray | 22:22 |
| ailo | And from a meny, you can adjust system settings | 22:22 |
| astraljava | ailo: But we decided to drop -controls for oneiric, so that's gotta pass. | 22:22 |
| ailo | Yeah, I know | 22:22 |
| ailo | For next release though | 22:22 |
| astraljava | Sure. | 22:22 |
| ailo | Don't think we'll have any workflows ready before then anyway | 22:23 |
| ailo | In practice | 22:23 |
| astraljava | Probably. | 22:23 |
| ailo | So, if we have some sort of a custom US panel, why not let it be toggable from the us-control-indicator-menu | 22:23 |
| ailo | The panel could have a few controls | 22:24 |
| ailo | Starters, I mean | 22:24 |
| ailo | Like, "Start New Audio Project" | 22:24 |
| ailo | And that would open a list of choices | 22:24 |
| ailo | Templates | 22:24 |
| ailo | = Workflows | 22:24 |
| ailo | For audio, those would be mostly saved ladish projects | 22:25 |
| astraljava | If that's workable with ladish, then why not. | 22:25 |
| ailo | For graphics and video, I don't know | 22:25 |
| ailo | That's not my field | 22:25 |
| astraljava | But that would require dynamic menu entries, and I'm not sure XFCE provides that. | 22:25 |
| ailo | The choices for "Create New Audio Project", "Create New Graphics Project" etc, could also be found in a submenu of the us-controls-indicator-menyu | 22:26 |
| ailo | Not in the main menu. An indicator menu, or a custom floating panel | 22:26 |
| ailo | At least in the indicator menu | 22:26 |
| astraljava | Same thing really. It's what we have to live with. | 22:26 |
| ailo | How is that the same thing? | 22:27 |
| astraljava | Or are you suggesting we create a custom application, providing our own menu structures? | 22:27 |
| ailo | I've been preparing for making ubuntustudio-controls be an indicator application. | 22:28 |
| astraljava | Okay. | 22:28 |
| ailo | I made a system settings type of us-controls for natty, but we never used it | 22:28 |
| ailo | That would server as one of the choices in the menu | 22:28 |
| ailo | serve* | 22:28 |
| astraljava | Yeah, that could work. | 22:29 |
| astraljava | I am just a newbie in XFCE, so cannot comment on that. | 22:30 |
| ailo | I haven't used it since karmic | 22:30 |
| astraljava | Probably not too hard to do, though. | 22:30 |
| ailo | What UI do you use? | 22:30 |
| ailo | KDE? | 22:31 |
| astraljava | On the laptop I have Ubuntu Classic, on the desktop I have Studio 11.04. | 22:32 |
| astraljava | So basically, GNOME 2. | 22:32 |
| astraljava | But come Monday, I'm installing Xubuntu, Kubuntu, vanilla (with Unity and gnome-shell), lubuntu, debian sid, you name it. | 22:33 |
| ailo | I'm on Oneiric now. Pretty happy with Unity, except for not being able to tweak some things (haven't yet got around to finding out how to do it). I also like Gnome3. I see why people are allergic to any Mac reference, but I find them to be great UI's | 22:33 |
| ailo | Especially when we start using touch screens more (which seems probable) | 22:34 |
| astraljava | No touch on Macs, really, so can't comment on that. | 22:34 |
| ailo | And, I'm really starting to hate the mouse | 22:34 |
| astraljava | I've hated it since 2005. | 22:35 |
| astraljava | Even before, but couldn't really live without one before that. | 22:35 |
| ailo | I like the scroll wheel. That's my favorite part on the mouse | 22:36 |
| astraljava | Yeah it's alright. | 22:37 |
| astraljava | Also, in some cases, the only way of doing c[opy|ut]/paste in *nix. | 22:37 |
| ScottL | ailo, astraljava, i'm sure a menu entry could start lash and open a template | 23:32 |
| ScottL | falktx would be a better resource however to answer confirm my thought | 23:33 |
| ailo | ScottL, What thought is that? | 23:33 |
| falktx | ScottL: hm, please explain | 23:33 |
| ScottL | oh, sorry, talking about using the menu to "start a new audio application" using a template | 23:38 |
| ailo | ScottL, You mean, "Start a new Audio Project" | 23:39 |
| ScottL | whether the menu is the conventional menu or one provide a system tray indicator menu | 23:39 |
| ScottL | ailo, aye, yes...my apologies | 23:39 |
| ScottL | falktx, can lash be started and open a template from the command line? | 23:40 |
| falktx | ScottL: well, for starters, lash is not working on oneiric at all | 23:40 |
| falktx | maybe you mean ladish? | 23:41 |
| ScottL | err, i mispoke again, falktx, yes i meant ladish | 23:41 |
| ailo | ScottL, No conventional menu. My idea is to have a submenu to a us-controls-indicator menu that has "Start New Audio Project", "Start New Graphics Project", "Start New Video Project". And, if we have a floating panel, a custom US dock, we could have those there as well | 23:41 |
| * ScottL apologizes as he's doing dinner with family and trying to read backscroll and type | 23:42 | |
| ScottL | falktx, is it possible to start ladish and open a template from the command line? | 23:42 |
| ScottL | if so, this will certainly facilitate ailo's desire to provide an abbreviated way for new users to start projects | 23:43 |
| ailo | ScottL, This is the easiest way I can see making practice of workflows | 23:43 |
| ailo | falktx, ladish_control? | 23:44 |
| falktx | ailo: ladish has a dbus interface, you should use that for development | 23:45 |
| falktx | ailo: if you're going to use qt, you can easily wrap my klaudia widget into a window though | 23:45 |
| ailo | falktx, You are welcome to help with -controls, if you wish | 23:46 |
| ailo | falktx, I don't care if it's qt or gtk | 23:46 |
| * falktx is developing systray.py, a cross-desktop systray implementation (gtk, qt, kde, app-indicator support) | 23:46 | |
| ailo | Sounds great | 23:46 |
| falktx | ailo: I will release Klaudia (v1.0) very very soon | 23:46 |
| falktx | ailo: I just need to get the website done (engine already completed) so the app has some docs when released | 23:47 |
| falktx | ailo: if it's not too late, I would love to push it to debian -> ubuntu oneiric | 23:47 |
| falktx | ScottL: ^ | 23:47 |
| ailo | falktx, I believe it's too late :( | 23:48 |
| falktx | really? | 23:48 |
| falktx | :( | 23:48 |
| falktx | persia: you're the ubuntu guy right? can you comment on this? | 23:49 |
| ailo | Oneiric is behaving strange. Banshee will block audio for flash-plugin | 23:51 |
| ailo | Both using PA | 23:51 |
| ailo | Banshee is behaving strange, perhaps | 23:52 |
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