[09:24] <astraljava> Yeah I saw some email correspondence related to that. Nice!
[12:29] <ailo> Anyone else notice how much Ubuntu is starting to adjust towards mac? Single click indicators. Now I noticed you can't delete files in Nautilus using the DEL button. You have to right click and choose "move to trash"
[12:31] <falktx> ailo: have you seen gnome3 ?
[12:31] <falktx> that's a full blown copy
[12:31] <falktx> (of mac)
[12:31] <ailo> You think so?
[12:31] <falktx> ailo: ubuntu has unity, which I like and feels a bit original
[12:31] <ailo> I've only used it a little
[12:31] <falktx> ailo: gnome3 is a ripoff of mac
[12:31]  * falktx looks for screens
[12:32] <ailo> Isn't Unity a simplified rip-off of Gnome3?
[12:32] <falktx> ailo: no, unity is made from scratch
[12:32] <falktx> it uses gtk3, but not gnome itself
[12:33] <falktx> ailo: note the mac preferences - http://www.demogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Mac-OSX-System-Preferences.jpg
[12:34] <falktx> ailo: now look at gnome 3 -> http://ompldr.org/vODNhaw/gnome_3_settings.png
[12:34] <ailo> It's the same in Unity
[12:34] <ailo> They are using Gnome3 as base now
[12:35] <falktx> ailo: ah, yes, but gnome3 != gnome3-shell
[12:35] <ailo> Right
[12:35] <falktx> Personal and Hardware are the top things in the screenshots
[12:35] <falktx> ailo: gnome3 also copied the mac way of showing dialogs (not a new window, but slide from the top)
[12:37] <ailo> It does seem a lot of mac functionality is being used
[12:37] <ailo> And installing Ubuntu on a mac should feel more natural
[12:37] <ailo> The system settings part is pretty good in my opinion
[12:38] <ailo> The "power button menu" in the top right how has more options
[12:38] <ailo> System settings, updates..
[12:39] <ailo> I'm happy someone made a indicator version of the hardware monitor applate
[12:39] <ailo> applet*
[12:40] <ailo> What I like about both Gnome3 and Unity is the menu
[12:40] <falktx> I don't like gnome3
[12:41] <ailo> Well, you are a KDE guy
[12:41] <falktx> the systray is the worse thing I ever saw
[12:43] <ailo> I don't really care too much about mac. As long as the desktop is functional
[13:09] <astraljava> ailo: Please keep in mind, though, that ubuntu != GNOME
[13:09] <astraljava> Granted, the vanilla uses that exclusively, but Canonical people don't make those decisions
[13:24] <ailo> True. Ubuntu is not Gnome3. But, Unity looks very similar to Gnome3
[13:33] <astraljava> I can imagine. But I'm not willing to see it for myself. :D
[13:34] <astraljava> Guess I will have to, though, in order to keep providing support on #ubuntu. (granted, very sporadic)
[17:49] <falktx> hm, who is Cory?
[17:49] <falktx> (ie, his nickname)
[18:04] <ailo> falktx, ckontros I think
[18:04]  * falktx wonders why he's not on irc
[18:05] <ailo> falktx, He may be, but not logged into this channel. 
[18:06] <falktx> ok
[18:07] <falktx> I'll be sad to not see US oneiric
[18:07] <falktx> at least we should try
[18:13] <astraljava> Cory is the previous Studio head.
[18:14] <astraljava> The one that got the thing going.
[18:15] <falktx> oh
[18:16] <astraljava> But yeah. That's his opinion. He's not the head anymore, so that's only one vote. The team will still decide.
[18:23] <ailo> Yeah, he proceeds as if he's the one who calls all the shots :P
[18:23] <falktx> but his proposal is exactly what I'm trying to do with KXStudio
[18:23] <falktx> if US would take that action, my guess it's that we could no longer call it "UbuntuStudio"
[18:24] <ailo> I would prefer US to be just a tuneup of Ubuntu
[18:24] <ailo> I've said that before
[18:25] <falktx> I would to
[18:26] <falktx> I want to make KXStudio like an extension of Ubuntu[Studio]
[18:26] <falktx> I will force people to start saying "I'm using Ubuntu", not "I'm using KXStudio", which is no longer a distro
[18:26] <falktx> at least this can help US a little
[18:27]  * falktx still needs to finish the website
[18:27] <ailo> A live CD would be great though
[18:28] <falktx> oh, yes, totally
[18:28] <falktx> one thing at a time
[18:28] <falktx> I promised ScottL I would help US with a live-cd and I will do that
[18:29] <ailo> What's the problem with getting US to base on Xubuntu now?
[18:29] <falktx> no one
[18:29] <falktx> I think it's a wise move
[18:29] <falktx> gnome3 and unity are not suited to multimedia production
[18:29] <astraljava> IMHO, he gave up. If the rest of the team won't do that, we're fine.
[18:29] <falktx> cool
[18:29] <astraljava> But we do need reinforcements.
[18:29] <ailo> I don't agree, but XFCE is still a good chooce
[18:30] <astraljava> Lots of fresh blood.
[18:30] <ailo> falktx, How do you make your iso's?
[18:31] <ailo> Can't we just copy Xubuntu and make some very small changes to it?
[18:31] <astraljava> We got the ball rolling again just the other day, in a conversation between holstein, ailo, ScottL and yours truly. We'll make it.
[18:31] <falktx> ailo: I have a script for that. I create a debian chroot, install packages, and pack it into an ISO
[18:32] <astraljava> ailo: That thing is under works, and should be testable (is that a word?) soon-ish. Before the beta1 anyway.
[18:32] <ailo> I really don't think it matters so much how the desktop looks, or what panels we use, as long as we have a working distro
[18:32] <ailo> As littel changes as possible, I think
[18:33] <ailo> At the same time, I have no idea about tuning a distro for multimedia on a lower level, which US used to be good at, I guess
[18:34] <ailo> Performance is the most important issue. To get stable performance
[18:34] <ailo> That is why I always thought -lowlatency was important
[18:35] <ailo> The live ISO would just serve as an example anyway
[18:36] <ailo> And if you can't get stable performance installing the packages from the main repo, it sucks a bit, I think
[18:36] <ailo> XFCE would in my view only be one way to go
[18:38] <ailo> The user should be able to use any derivative, and just by installing the US meta packages be able to get a good system for multimedia
[18:38] <ailo> So, I agree with both falktx and ckontros
[18:39] <ailo> Who's working on the iso, then?
[18:40] <falktx> currently no one
[18:41] <ailo> Xubuntu has two iso's. One is live, and one is alternate
[18:42] <ailo> How hard would it be to just copy the Xubuntu live CD, and adjust the preinstalled packages?
[18:42] <ailo> Of course, I realize you need to change a few things here and there
[18:43] <falktx> later
[20:07] <astraljava> ailo: That's why we never considered live-cd/dvd so important. It wouldn't necessarily deliver the same performance. But these days, people got tons of RAM. It might work.
[20:08] <holstein> astraljava: i agree, we can make it 
[20:08] <holstein> cory is not in here
[20:08] <astraljava> The branding used to be the reason, together with the already available set of packages to do most everything a multimedia-related worker needed to do.
[20:09] <astraljava> holstein: We can. I'm a bit worried for 12.04, as it's an LTS, and it should be S-O-L-I-D.
[20:10] <astraljava> But, with a good 11.10, we could deliver.
[20:11] <holstein> i mean, i brought that up before too
[20:11] <holstein> going to just PPA's
[20:11] <holstein> just meta packages
[20:11] <holstein> thats something we could discuss again
[20:12] <holstein> astraljava: im a fan of the live CD installer for a couple reasons
[20:12] <holstein> firstly, testing... folks can see how the hardware will work with JACK
[20:12] <holstein> the installation process too from the alternate CD is not friendly
[20:13] <holstein> i have not talked to *any* person who flawlessly install 11.04 from the ubuntustudio CD
[20:13] <holstein> over in #ubuntustudio
[20:13] <astraljava> holstein: Yeah, but then again, people can see whether their hw works with vanilla live cd. Studio doesn't necessarily be used for that.
[20:13] <holstein> astraljava: not really
[20:13] <astraljava> We would certainly not be using PPAs for that.
[20:13] <holstein> JACK is not there, and if we have a -lowlatency kernel, you can test that from the live CD
[20:13] <astraljava> They're bound to be out of official support, always.
[20:14] <holstein> astraljava: +, we are literally the only multimedia distro thats *not* live
[20:14] <astraljava> Okay, valid points, there.
[20:14] <ailo> astraljava, There will be no loss in performance whatsoever with a live CD
[20:14] <holstein> i think new users expect to see the tools live
[20:14] <holstein> i know i do
[20:14] <astraljava> I don't care about being "out there" or not. Every distro does it their own way.
[20:14] <astraljava> ailo: There will, unless you can fit everything needed into RAM.
[20:15] <holstein> sure... but, i really agree with the reasoning, so thats why i suggest it
[20:15] <holstein> i would have never gotten over the hump so to speak without the 64studio live CD
[20:15] <holstein> 2.whatever
[20:15] <astraljava> holstein: I understand that it would be great to have that possibility.
[20:15] <holstein> i see lots of that in the support channel too
[20:15] <holstein> most everyone
[20:16] <holstein> "i installed ubuntustudio and its not doing whatever"
[20:16] <holstein> "it sucks, i hate it"
[20:16] <holstein> and some of that is opinion for sure
[20:16] <ailo> astraljava, The only difference is that loading programs takes longer time. I don't count that as a loss in performance
[20:16] <ailo> The programs still run just as fast
[20:16] <holstein> but, i feel like some of it could be made easier for them
[20:16] <astraljava> Sure. Ubuntu has a name. It's fashionable to diss it.
[20:16] <holstein> them = the new user
[20:16] <holstein> unless we dont care about them
[20:16] <holstein> which is fine too
[20:17] <holstein> just take a stand as a technical level tool
[20:17] <astraljava> Oh, but we do care. It's always just been a balance between what we can deliver, and who we have to leave out.
[20:17] <holstein> astraljava: that makes sense
[20:17] <holstein> what we *can* do
[20:17] <holstein> somewhere in the middle
[20:18] <holstein> i mean, ubuntu proper is/has been really good at filling that gap of something for the new user
[20:18] <holstein> and i think ubuntustudio has been that too
[20:18] <astraljava> I mean, IMHO, Studio would be a leading distro, if we had thrice the developers we have had.
[20:18] <astraljava> But at most, there has been like 3 at the time.
[20:19] <holstein> astraljava: im looking into what it would take for us to transition to official
[20:19] <holstein> like kubuntu
[20:19] <astraljava> We're already official.
[20:20] <holstein> not really though
[20:20] <holstein> paid developers work on kubuntu
[20:20] <astraljava> Together with Xubuntu, Kubuntu, and Mythbuntu.
[20:20] <holstein> and we dont have that
[20:20] <holstein> i *thought* we were too
[20:20] <astraljava> But we're the only ones that are supported on #ubuntu.
[20:21] <astraljava> Paid is a different thing.
[20:21] <astraljava> That's up to Mark.
[20:21] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu and Kubuntu are the only ones with paid developers
[20:21] <astraljava> Cory was paid at one point.
[20:21] <holstein> yeah, im not sure what it takes yet
[20:21] <astraljava> But it became evident that this was not going places enough, so they dropped it.
[20:23] <holstein> it has been refreshing to see the xubuntu team in action charlie-tca 
[20:23] <holstein> you guys really have it together
[20:23] <charlie-tca> But we are all volunteers, too
[20:23] <charlie-tca> We have no paid developer
[20:24] <charlie-tca> and for altogether, we only have two devs working on it
[20:24] <holstein> i keep thinking if we had a paid team member or 2, we could get something done
[20:24] <holstein> but, you guys do great
[20:24] <holstein> always have
[20:24] <charlie-tca> We have our ups and downs
[20:24] <charlie-tca> There was a big battle about three years ago that almost killed Xubuntu
[20:24] <holstein> i feel like maybe that happened here?
[20:25] <holstein> i feel like i came in on some aftermath, but maybe not
[20:25] <charlie-tca> I don't know. It might be
[20:25] <charlie-tca> we came within days of not having a distribution
[20:25] <astraljava> That's happened with Studio as well.
[20:26] <astraljava> It's not so surprising, really.
[20:26] <astraljava> When there's no-one who's livelihood depends on it.
[20:27] <astraljava> s/who's/whose/
[20:27] <kubotu> astraljava meant: "When there's no-one whose livelihood depends on it."
[20:27] <astraljava> Right?
[20:27] <astraljava> Oh look at that.
[20:27] <charlie-tca> Right
[20:27]  * astraljava ^5s kubotu 
[20:27] <charlie-tca> When we are all volunteer, it is harder to find people to keep gooing
[20:28] <ailo> Or someones wet dream
[20:28] <charlie-tca> s/gooing/going
[20:28] <charlie-tca> Xubuntu went from 7 or 8 to two overnight back then'
[20:28] <astraljava> Sad as it is, that's the truth.
[20:29] <ailo> People don't usually have all the time in the world for one of their interests
[20:29] <astraljava> That's what shocks most of the newcomers in the OS projects.
[20:30] <astraljava> They're all  enthusiastic and ready to conquer the world.
[20:30] <charlie-tca> yup, it takes a couple of very dedicated people to keep things rolling
[20:30] <astraljava> But the oldies... they have priorities.
[20:30] <astraljava> And most of the time, they clash.
[20:31] <astraljava> charlie-tca's right. It only takes a few.
[20:31] <astraljava> But good luck in finding the feww.
[20:31] <astraljava> -w
[20:31] <ailo> It's a matter of timing too I think
[20:32] <astraljava> That's exactly what I meant.
[20:32] <astraljava> Priorities.
[20:32] <ailo> I sometimes think perhaps it
[20:32] <astraljava> They're not constant.
[20:32] <ScottL> is this conversation derived from cory's email?
[20:32] <astraljava> ScottL: For sure.
[20:33] <ailo> astraljava, Yeah, but say 5 people might all have time at the same time, and then no one has.
[20:33] <astraljava> ailo: Right. That's exactly what has happened to Studio.
[20:33]  * ScottL hasn't actually read backsroll but saw there was much of it
[20:33] <astraljava> I believe in '05-'06, Studio had it going.
[20:34] <ailo> ScottL, What do you think of corys post?
[20:34] <astraljava> But then, the downhill started.
[20:34] <astraljava> It hasn't really picked up since then.
[20:35] <ScottL> ailo, i have some thoughts about cory's email
[20:35] <astraljava> Back then, we had Joe, Cory, and the guy I never seem to recall
[20:35] <ScottL> but i would start before the email
[20:35] <astraljava> And some devs to boot.
[20:35] <ScottL> cory called me and we talked about twenty minutes on the phone
[20:35] <astraljava> Then the whole thing fell apart.
[20:35] <astraljava> Pieces only were picked since.
[20:35] <ScottL> he has concerns about the trajectory of the project
[20:36] <ScottL> especially in contrast to the history that astrajava is currently commenting
[20:36] <ScottL> or recalling
[20:37] <ScottL> cory has been an advocate for the "ppa method" for some time i believe
[20:37] <ScottL> and cory made a very good point to me on the phone:
[20:38] <ScottL> we devote an inordinate amount of time on integration, iso building, etc
[20:38] <ailo> ScottL, Was cory the only one working on the iso just now?
[20:38] <ScottL> that takes away from what he called the goal of project, "showing what this software can do"
[20:39] <ScottL> ailo, i'm not sure i understand your question is this a rhetorical question?
[20:39] <ailo> I agree with that statement. And that the iso should be mostly about that. While the meta packages should be where the focus is
[20:39] <ScottL> aye, ailo, that was his point
[20:40] <ScottL> he argument was that if we focused on using a ppa to "upgrade" from vanilla to ubuntu we focus more on packaging and less on other things
[20:40] <ailo> ScottL, I mean, who was leading the work on getting the iso to be based on Xubuntu?
[20:40] <ScottL> well, cory has made significant changes, but astraljava has likewise made significant changes
[20:41] <ScottL> a second aspect of cory's concern was that we have few contributors/developers and we seem to be overwhelmed (as detected by the lack of progress)
[20:41] <ailo> I would be fine with UbuntuStudio based on a live Xubuntu ISO, and just changing as little as needed. As long as it performs well.
[20:41] <astraljava> My only objection against using plain PPAs is the official support that we're having.
[20:41] <astraljava> We're not many.
[20:42] <astraljava> If we have to provide support ourselves, we're doomed.
[20:42] <ScottL> astraljava, you make an excellent point, on that i would have made as well if no one else did not
[20:42] <ScottL> oh, i wasn't going to say "we're doomed" however :P
[20:43] <astraljava> From my point of view, that's enough payment for the effort that we're showing during the devel cycle.
[20:43] <astraljava> ScottL: That's' because everything you say gets quoted in the press. :D
[20:43] <ScottL> lol
[20:44] <ScottL> i know there are several people who believe the ppa method is the route to be preferred...
[20:44] <ScottL> but i wanted to mention our official status and the benefits that yields
[20:44] <astraljava> Exactly.
[20:44] <astraljava> It's something far more than people really realize.
[20:45] <ScottL> i can see advantages and disadvantages to both sides...i do not advocate a position at this point
[20:45] <astraljava> Building a derivate isn't just about releasing an .iso.
[20:45] <ailo> I think ppa's are fine for testing. But, isn't the idea to keep the meta packages up to date as well?
[20:45] <astraljava> We're committing to it for 18 months at the time, a minimum.
[20:46] <astraljava> Sometimes even longer.
[20:46] <ScottL> aye, but we can choose our own release schedule for those ISO's, astraljava 
[20:46] <astraljava> ailo: That's what we're doing. Creating meta-packages for the convenience of the users.
[20:46] <ScottL> we can only do LTS, or just every year, of whenever we damn well feel like it
[20:47] <astraljava> ScottL: True, but the packages are still bound to higher-ups' schedules.
[20:47] <ScottL> ailo, astraljava:  cory made another point i'll mention, we can create more meta-packages in ppa to help with installation of applications based on work flows
[20:47] <astraljava> ScottL: Sure, but every new meta increases the workload.
[20:47] <ailo> ScottL, That doesn't sound like a point to me though
[20:47] <ScottL> astraljava, we can work more directly with back ports or choose to create a ppa for updating packages to our release version
[20:48] <ailo> ScottL, I want to see those workflows outlined to the detail before I agree that is a point
[20:48] <ScottL> the more subtle point is that we CAN move stuff into the ppa if we choose
[20:48] <astraljava> That's a good thing, aye.
[20:49] <ScottL> to an extreme that we are similar to kxstudio and pull most packages from ppa if we chose
[20:49] <ailo> It's a good place to do experiments
[20:49] <astraljava> But again, it's out of #ubuntu's scope, so not a very sought-after thing, in the end.
[20:49] <ScottL> again, i'm not advocating, just discussion what is possible
[20:50] <astraljava> That's good, keep the discussion flowing.
[20:50] <ailo> astraljava, So, what's missing for the iso to work?
[20:51] <ailo> Is there some sort of a roadmap somewhere for it?
[20:51] <ailo> I'm just curious on what the problem is with that
[20:52] <charlie-tca> ScottL: you got a good grasp on it
[20:52] <charlie-tca> I tried to explain the same thing to Lubuntu. Ubuntu is a tool for those of us trying to help with other derivatives
[20:52] <charlie-tca> It is not an iron-clad rule maker, for any of us.
[20:53] <ScottL> charlie-tca, thank you :)
[20:53] <ScottL> i fear that i have moment of clarity on specific subject only though
[20:53] <charlie-tca> That's all any of us get, I think.
[20:53] <ScottL> argh, moments... and subjects....
[20:54] <astraljava> It totally depends on what you want.
[20:54] <astraljava> Official support?
[20:54] <astraljava> Play by the rules.
[20:54] <charlie-tca> It's when we think we have to keep up with Ubuntu that it hurts us
[20:54] <astraljava> More freedom?
[20:54] <astraljava> You're almost on your own.
[20:55] <charlie-tca> yes, you are. Ubuntu provides us with hosted images, and time frames that work sometimes
[20:55] <charlie-tca> They are also willing to fix a lot of bugs that we do not have resources to even look at.
[20:55] <ScottL> my main concern if we choose the ppa method is that we will loose recognition and ISO building rights that we may never claim again
[20:55] <ailo> astraljava, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-meta/+bug/806672 ?
[20:55] <astraljava> ScottL: That's exactly right.
[20:56] <astraljava> ScottL: It's why I'm still fighting, to keep what we have going for us.
[20:56] <astraljava> ailo: Without looking, those are fixed, but not uploaded since we didn't come to an agreement of what we want to have by default.
[20:58] <astraljava> TheMuso: Could you upload ubuntustudio.oneiric so we can see what fails now, when new .isos are being built?
[20:58] <ScottL> cory also seemed a little disappointed that dev discussions had not been happening on the mailing list recently
[20:58] <astraljava> I will try to do the testing tomorrow, if I have time, but due to my limited bandwidth, it'll most likely have to wait until next week.
[20:58] <ScottL> he seemed to think this reflected activity
[20:58] <ScottL> i assure him it did not
[20:58] <ScottL> as we discuss things quite frequently here
[20:59] <astraljava> Yeah. Why isn't he on IRC?
[20:59] <ScottL> work and family...he commented that work was especially busy lately
[20:59] <astraljava> At least I don't have time to double everything on the ML.
[21:00] <astraljava> Yeah but okay, there's still irclogs.u.c
[21:02] <astraljava> So, people. Could you please have a look @ https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.oneiric
[21:03] <astraljava> Tell us, what's your opinion. What should not be there, and what should, but is not.
[21:03] <astraljava> We have 2 weeks until beta1.
[21:04] <astraljava> Nothing can be added, that's not already in oneiric repos (excluding FFes, but highly unlikely).
[21:04] <astraljava> But within those limits.
[21:05] <astraljava> Because, that's the stuff that depicts how the session will look like
[21:05] <astraljava> If you don't like it now, you won't like it when the release happens.
[21:06] <astraljava> I should probably throw it on the ML, too.
[21:06] <ScottL> astraljava, i think the main focus should be to get luke to update the metas so we can test an image
[21:06] <ScottL> just my opinion, mind you
[21:08] <astraljava> I know, but just in case we have overlooked something that's obvious, really.
[21:08] <astraljava> And I just pinged him, so we should see some results soon.
[21:13] <astraljava> Right, we get some ML activity. I feel we should have more of that anyway, that's one thing Cory is right about.
[21:14] <astraljava> Not all people can hang on IRC all the time, even though I just mentioned the logs
[21:14] <astraljava> There's lots of room for development.
[21:14] <astraljava> That's one thing.
[21:14] <ailo> I too think anything important should always be posted on the mail list
[21:15] <astraljava> The holy trinity, IMHO, is IRC - wiki - ML.
[21:16] <astraljava> Currently we're doing pretty well on the first two.
[21:17] <ScottL> i am still of the mind that clearly and consensually identify our audience and goals would help answer most of our questions of late
[21:18] <ScottL> it's hard to make decisions without knowing what we are trying to accomplish
[21:19] <ailo> I have the same view I had when I started hanging out here
[21:19] <ScottL> i doubt we will find easy consensus however among those present much less amongst those not present
[21:19] <ailo> I think US should be a tuneup of Ubuntu for multimedia. It should make Ubuntu perform well for anything multimedia and have easy ways of finding apps and documentation for them
[21:20] <ailo> The ISO should be a showcase. An example
[21:20] <astraljava> So, did we get anywhere in defining those audiences and goals?
[21:21] <ScottL> ailo, by "tune up" do you mean a state of being or an installing process?
[21:21] <ScottL> astraljava, i don't think so
[21:21] <ailo> ScottL, -lowlatency is an example of a package that makes Ubuntu perform better for audio use
[21:22] <ScottL> okay, i think i understand that
[21:22] <ailo> If there are additional packages/settings that are required for one to get good performance, I would count those in under the performance criteria
[21:23] <ailo> Then, there's guidance
[21:23] <ailo> Guiding the user
[21:23] <ailo> Which is where workflows comes in, and documentation.
[21:23] <ailo> As well as ubuntustudio-controls
[21:24] <ailo> When it comes to UI, I'm not that concerned. The simpler, the better
[21:24] <ailo> Let the user decide which derivative, and which UI
[21:24] <ailo> Of course, meta-packages for multimedia apps is helpful too
[21:25] <ailo> Even though,  a comprehensive database might be even better
[21:25] <ScottL> ailo, are you expected an experienced user, both with linux and music?
[21:25] <ailo> A database needs to be updated for every release
[21:27] <ailo> No. Not at all
[21:27] <holstein> this is where i am... i can *totally* get behind the PPA only idea... i just feel like we discussed this back in april, and decided to do XFCE
[21:27] <holstein> if we are comfortable letting the work we have done go, lets entertain it
[21:27] <holstein> we being astraljava and others... i havent personally done much
[21:27] <astraljava> Yeah. That's where our expectations differ. What we currently (mostly) have, are devs who know what needs to be done package/config -wise. But we lack in the documentation people.
[21:27] <ailo> ppa only, to me, seems like giving up completely. Then it's just another distro
[21:28] <holstein> it would take a bit of pressure off
[21:28] <astraljava> holstein: Sure, but only temporarily.
[21:28] <holstein> i mean, we already decided back in april *not* to do PPA's only
[21:28] <holstein> and we have talked about it since then
[21:29] <ailo> For me, the whole point of US is to be the standard multimedia framwork for all Ubuntu based distros
[21:29] <astraljava> Once the support questions come piling in, we're screwed (not Scott's opinion, I know)
[21:29] <holstein> maybe
[21:29] <astraljava> And once those are left unanswered, we're practically no more.
[21:29] <holstein> it might help make things consistent too
[21:29] <holstein> i mean, no more 'did you install from the DVD?'
[21:29] <holstein> TBH, i usually talk people *out* of using the ubuntustudio installer
[21:30] <ailo> I wouldn't be interested in working on UbuntuStudio, if it was not in the main repo. Then I could just make my own ppa instead
[21:30] <astraljava> holstein: Doesn't matter.
[21:30] <holstein> new folks at least
[21:30] <astraljava> Either way, people in the official support channels will support ours.
[21:30] <astraljava> If we are to deviate from that...
[21:30] <holstein> ailo: would this kick it out of the main repo?
[21:30] <holstein> the software?
[21:30] <holstein> thats a deal breaker
[21:30] <astraljava> We can as well pack up our things and go home.
[21:31] <ScottL> holstein, a packages status in the repository will not change
[21:31] <holstein> when JACK got promoted or whatever, that really helped
[21:33] <ScottL> ailo, can you explain what type of user you envision using ubuntu studio?
[21:33] <ailo> ScottL, I think universally.
[21:33]  * ScottL has been thinking about the multimedia distro ecosphere lately
[21:33] <ailo> ScottL, That's been my focus all along
[21:35] <holstein> ScottL, ailo, astraljava ... can we just do LTS releases?
[21:35] <ScottL> ailo, so you expect the audience to inexperienced to experienced as both linux users and musicians, is that a fair representation?
[21:35] <holstein> and email to that effect just came through...
[21:36] <astraljava> holstein: No, cause that way we won't get enough feedback for the next one.
[21:36] <holstein> feedback?
[21:36] <holstein> wheres the current feedback?
[21:36] <astraljava> What works, what needs to get rid off...
[21:36] <astraljava> Wherever Scott, you and ailo have been getting the comments from.
[21:37] <ScottL> we haven't really been receiving much, if any, feedback except bug reports
[21:37] <ScottL> astraljava, what sort of user do you expect for ubuntu studio?
[21:37] <ScottL> holstein, can you answer the same question as above?
[21:38] <astraljava> But you guys are all the time going over these "US sucks, they do this they do that, what the hell?!"
[21:38] <ScottL> astraljava, i think those are mainly in other IRC channels
[21:38] <astraljava> That's feedback.
[21:38] <astraljava> Not direct, but still.
[21:39] <astraljava> If we only have LTS releases, there's like 18 months of silence, during which we have to guess.
[21:39] <astraljava> Then there's the devel progress of vanilla.
[21:39] <astraljava> Let's face it, we're heavily leaning on them.
[21:40] <ScottL> astraljava, holstein, would you humor me and describe what user you see using Ubuntu Studio please?
[21:40] <ScottL> not what you currently see, what you expect
[21:40] <astraljava> Indirectly, as we're now more directly leaning on charlie-tca et al. :D
[21:41] <astraljava> ScottL: Don't ask me, I'm the work-horse here. :) I'm just grateful it fulfills my need of providing a recording/slight mixing of my own stuff.
[21:41] <ScottL> okay, i will share mine now then...
[21:42] <ScottL> i expect newbies, both to linux and music, to use ubuntu studio from the ISO
[21:42] <ScottL> i think those that become experienced will move to using vanilla ubuntu and installing their own packages, either the meta's or just packages
[21:43] <ailo> ScottL, I think we should be able to give newbies what they need already from any Ubuntu derivative
[21:43] <ScottL> i consider autostatic (and perhaps some here in channel presently) to be examples of the "experienced" users i described above
[21:43] <ailo> We would only need one installable meta package in Software Center
[21:44] <holstein> yeah... new folks to multimedia
[21:44] <holstein> either in general, or from ubuntu
[21:44] <holstein> or other linux's
[21:44] <ScottL> ailo, i have thought for some time that we should improve the process to "upgrade" from ubuntu
[21:45] <astraljava> Really.
[21:45] <astraljava> Moving to base from Xubuntu.
[21:45] <astraljava> That's almost as if you're installing from a separate .iso.
[21:46] <astraljava> You first spend 700MB of bandwidth of downloading the vanilla.
[21:46] <astraljava> Then you probably spend about 600MB of downloading XFCE packages, plus all the multimedia packages.
[21:47] <astraljava> And remove about half of the originally installed at the same process.
[21:47] <astraljava> Well okay, maybe not that.
[21:47] <ailo> I don't think a US meta package in software center should have any dependencies to UI
[21:47] <astraljava> But still.
[21:47] <astraljava> ailo: Really?
[21:47] <ailo> Absolutely
[21:47] <astraljava> What about the branding, then?
[21:48] <ailo> It's enough with some subtle changes
[21:48] <astraljava> We just decided to go with XFCE as a base.
[21:48] <astraljava> Vanilla has GNOME3, remember.
[21:48] <ailo> We can have that on the install iso
[21:48] <ailo> But, we don't need to have XFCE as a dependency on a "global" ubuntustudio meta package
[21:48] <astraljava> WHAT?!
[21:49] <ScottL> astraljava, i think ailo means that if someone were to start with lubuntu it shouldn't pull other DE packages in
[21:49] <astraljava> But you just stated we would go with one meta only.
[21:49] <astraljava> ScottL: That's why we have separate metas for -sounds, -graphics etc.
[21:49] <astraljava> -desktop brings in the desired DE.
[21:49] <ailo> No, I stated that to get a newbie to get all they need installed, all that is required is one installable meta package in software center
[21:50] <astraljava> But with only one meta, that cannot be delivered.
[21:50] <ScottL> one meta to rule them all
[21:50] <ailo> That meta package doesn't need to be all that is found on a US iso
[21:50] <astraljava> HAHAH½
[21:50] <ScottL> astraljava, well one meta could depend on other meta's
[21:50] <ScottL> thanks for laughing astraljava  :)
[21:50] <astraljava> :D
[21:51] <ScottL> perhaps ailo is suggesting a single meta package to facilitate installation for newbies
[21:51] <astraljava> Okay, sure, that can be provided.
[21:51] <ailo> I don't usually use software center myself, since I'm not a newbie
[21:51] <ScottL> not as a packaging decision for us to put everything into a single package
[21:51] <ailo> But, I assume that is the first place a newbie looks for stuff
[21:51] <astraljava> But let me remind you, the more *new* packages we introduce, the more work there is to maintain them all.
[21:51] <ScottL> a "ubuntustudio-installation-dummy" package
[21:51] <ailo> So, if we are to help a newbie install stuff on their Ubuntu system, we need something in the software center
[21:52] <ScottL> ailo, i had thought originally that -controls could do this
[21:52] <ailo> ScottL, To be available in the software center, you mean?
[21:52] <astraljava> I don't get it. Is Software Center really that different, from say, Synaptics?
[21:52] <ailo> Or install stuff for a newbie
[21:53] <ScottL> i would not say so, but i think "software center" becomes a metaphor for installing packages without using terminal
[21:53] <astraljava> Oh okay.
[21:53] <ailo> The only app I can find in software center, ubuntustudio related, is ubuntustudio-controls
[21:53] <ScottL> but also synaptic is not being shipped on ubuntu discs anymore i believe
[21:54] <ailo> Software center is more about installing programs, the way newbies think about programs
[21:54] <ScottL> ailo, really?  you can't find any meta packages?  that is surprising
[21:54] <ailo> It's not a substitute for synaptic, or apt. It's an abstraction
[21:55] <astraljava> ailo: Really?
[21:55] <astraljava> Then that's fucked up.
[21:55] <ailo> It's meant for newbies
[21:55] <ailo> Do any of you use it?
[21:55] <ailo> I don't
[21:55] <astraljava> But I suspected as much, as I couldn't find, for instace, sun-java6* in there, even though I had enabled partner repos.
[21:56] <ailo> Why? Because it's slow and hard to navigate, since I already know how to use apt and synaptic
[21:56] <ScottL> i think it also mimics an "app store", ala Apple
[21:56] <astraljava> Oh _that's_ why!
[21:56] <ailo> That's why an installable app there would probably be helpful for newbies. That's what I meant
[21:57] <ScottL> i do not use software-center as a habit
[21:57] <ScottL> i use terminal if i know the package name, synaptic when i do not
[21:57] <astraljava> ailo: Thanks for this information! Will be valuable in the future!
[21:57] <astraljava> ScottL: Really? That's what apt-cache search is for. :D
[21:58] <ScottL> i occasionally use soft-ware center just to play with it from time to time, but i don't enjoy the experience i would say
[21:58] <ScottL> astraljava, i have toyed with out apt commands, but tend to forget them because there really isn't much i install these days without knowing the name
[21:58] <ScottL> s/out/other
[21:59] <astraljava> Right.
[21:59] <ScottL> but if we expect new linux users to use ubuntu studio then i would say the ppa is not the direction that would sufficiently support them
[21:59] <astraljava> Indeed.
[22:00] <ailo> The important packages for a "global" meta package, I do believe are: -lowlatency, -controls, and a showcase of applications.
[22:00] <astraljava> For two reasons, that I can think of.
[22:00] <ScottL> and unless we made a "ubuntu studio" meta-package then i would still posit that we are not sufficiently supporting them to upgrade from vanilla
[22:00] <ScottL> it would appear the dvd is the closest we get to supporting newbies
[22:01] <astraljava> ScottL: That was the whole point in the beginning.
[22:01] <astraljava> "Download this .iso, burn it on a dvd, install, you're set."
[22:01] <ailo> Or, install this one program in Software Center
[22:02] <ailo> "program" I should say
[22:02] <ScottL> i think cory would serve a different audience, but i have not heard him say so directly
[22:02] <astraljava> The whole "download the vanilla, burn, get updates, install this meta-package by the package manager of choice [what do you mean 'What's a package manager?
[22:02] <ScottL> this is inference from conversations
[22:02] <astraljava> ...etc
[22:03] <ScottL> i mentioned the multimedia distro ecosphere before...
[22:03] <ailo> I'm of the opinion, that cory works from his own personal likes/dislikes
[22:03] <astraljava> ailo:  You're right about there.
[22:04] <ScottL> i presume that falktx has mentioned that he will be moving to arch linux for audio?
[22:04] <astraljava> ailo:  And I understand what you mean with this single installable program.
[22:04] <astraljava> ailo: It's just that we probably never get a consensus of what it should provide, exactly.
[22:05] <ailo> astraljava, I don't agree. Some things are absolutely necessary, some are not that important
[22:05] <ScottL> with falktx transitioning kxstudio to arch audio i began to explore which spaces different distros occupy
[22:05] <astraljava> ailo: I didn't get that impression from the last time we talked about this, when we couldn't agree whether to settle on a mainline of professionals, or every bit of the sub-culture ones.
[22:06] <ailo> astraljava, When it comes to workflows, I'm absolutely sure that we can find some standards to work from. Standards, not personal views
[22:07] <ailo> That is how I think all together about this project
[22:07] <astraljava> ailo: I'm glad to hear that. Like I said, I didn't get this the last time. :) Probably I was just too out of my head. :)
[22:08] <ailo> Workflows should be based on either "correct" ways to do things, or very common ways to do things
[22:08] <astraljava> ScottL: Do you have this exploration documented anywhere?
[22:09] <ScottL> i don't have this documented anywhere
[22:09] <ScottL> astraljava, perhaps i misunderstood, did you mean workflows?
[22:09] <astraljava> Okay, well it would be good if you did, even on very high-level, for the discussion regarding who we're going to provide for.
[22:09] <astraljava> No, the spaces that different distros provide for.
[22:10] <ScottL> it's just my general, abstract observations and thoughts
[22:10] <astraljava> If you call that workflows, then fine, I'm not an English-native. :)
[22:10] <ScottL> falktx and arch provides for high-end, hands-on installation with high configurability...the really experienced people
[22:11] <astraljava> ScottL: Nevertheless, extremely valuable in deciding the vector of where we are going.
[22:11] <ScottL> a/v linux provides what we are trying to do but can do it better and more unified with packages we can handle
[22:11] <ScottL> s/can/can't
[22:11] <ScottL> i think the only user space not actively support is newbies
[22:11] <holstein> yup
[22:11] <ScottL> an unfortunate position perhaps
[22:11] <holstein> i agree with that
[22:12] <ailo> Ubuntu is really the best platform for that as is
[22:12] <ScottL> i don't know how actively, recruit, or cultivate future contributors or developers from newbies
[22:12] <astraljava> That's why we got the praise in that poll abogani linked to.
[22:12] <ScottL> i don't remember that poll
[22:13] <astraljava> http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/481201-the-2011-top-7-best-linux-distributions-for-you
[22:13] <holstein> well... art of war... your strengths are your weaknesses or whatever
[22:13] <holstein> we just need newbie coders too :)
[22:14] <astraljava> And ponies.
[22:14] <astraljava> Pink ones.
[22:14] <holstein> eh... it could happen
[22:14] <holstein> someone working on our stuff to learn something else
[22:15] <ScottL> that poll may be biased
[22:15] <astraljava> Yeah, but most of them are interested in vanilla.
[22:15] <astraljava> ScottL: Certainly.
[22:15] <holstein> astraljava: we would need to get some higher-ups to push them here
[22:15] <astraljava> But at least someone out there appreciates our work.
[22:15] <holstein> to help us, and learn
[22:15] <ScottL> we have more publicity than a/v linux does
[22:15] <holstein> yeah, for now
[22:16] <astraljava> holstein: That's how I got here. dtchen forwarded me here.
[22:16] <holstein> i remember harrison came around wanted to make ubuntustudio the platform for mixbus
[22:16] <holstein> now, its AVlinux
[22:16] <astraljava> That's _one_ recruit in 5 years.
[22:16] <ScottL> going away for a bit, i'll be back in a bit
[22:16] <holstein> ScottL: o/
[22:16] <ailo> Was thinking more about workflows
[22:16] <ailo> And about the "custom" panel that was planned for this release
[22:17] <ailo> holstein, Have you been using ladish at all?
[22:17] <ailo> I just installed it today. Haven't got around to try it yet
[22:17] <holstein> nah... not yet
[22:17] <holstein> i still just use JACK connect
[22:18] <ailo> holstein, Cause, from what I understand, you can save all open apps and connections, and then just load them for next time
[22:18] <holstein> thats the plan
[22:18] <holstein> can we use it?
[22:18] <holstein> is it in debian upstream?
[22:19] <ailo> It's in the oneiric repos now
[22:19] <ailo> repo*
[22:19] <holstein> cool
[22:19] <ailo> It would make sense to base audio based workflows on that. 
[22:20] <ailo> All we need is saved templates for different types of audio work
[22:20] <ailo> That would also showcase some applications at the same time
[22:20] <ailo> Perfect for newbies, if you aks me
[22:20] <astraljava> ailo: It would make writing the docs all the more easier as well.
[22:21] <ailo> astraljava, I do think we need to start with documenting the workflows. Someone needs to create templates for different multimedia tasks, and write them down
[22:21] <ailo> That's what I think
[22:22] <ailo> I like the idea of having -controls as an indicator application
[22:22] <ailo> An US-logo in the indicator tray
[22:22] <ailo> And from a meny, you can adjust system settings
[22:22] <astraljava> ailo: But we decided to drop -controls for oneiric, so that's gotta pass.
[22:22] <ailo> Yeah, I know
[22:22] <ailo> For next release though
[22:22] <astraljava> Sure.
[22:23] <ailo> Don't think we'll have any workflows ready before then anyway
[22:23] <ailo> In practice
[22:23] <astraljava> Probably.
[22:23] <ailo> So, if we have some sort of a custom US panel, why not let it be toggable from the us-control-indicator-menu
[22:24] <ailo> The panel could have a few controls
[22:24] <ailo> Starters, I mean
[22:24] <ailo> Like, "Start New Audio Project"
[22:24] <ailo> And that would open a list of choices
[22:24] <ailo> Templates
[22:24] <ailo> = Workflows
[22:25] <ailo> For audio, those would be mostly saved ladish projects
[22:25] <astraljava> If that's workable with ladish, then why not.
[22:25] <ailo> For graphics and video, I don't know
[22:25] <ailo> That's not my field
[22:25] <astraljava> But that would require dynamic menu entries, and I'm not sure XFCE provides that.
[22:26] <ailo> The choices for "Create New Audio Project", "Create New Graphics Project" etc, could also be found in a submenu of the us-controls-indicator-menyu
[22:26] <ailo> Not in the main menu. An indicator menu, or a custom floating panel
[22:26] <ailo> At least in the indicator menu
[22:26] <astraljava> Same thing really. It's what we have to live with.
[22:27] <ailo> How is that the same thing?
[22:27] <astraljava> Or are you suggesting we create a custom application, providing our own menu structures?
[22:28] <ailo> I've been preparing for making ubuntustudio-controls be an indicator application.
[22:28] <astraljava> Okay.
[22:28] <ailo> I made a system settings type of us-controls for natty, but we never used it
[22:28] <ailo> That would server as one of the choices in the menu
[22:28] <ailo> serve*
[22:29] <astraljava> Yeah, that could work.
[22:30] <astraljava> I am just a newbie in XFCE, so cannot comment on that.
[22:30] <ailo> I haven't used it since karmic
[22:30] <astraljava> Probably not too hard to do, though.
[22:30] <ailo> What UI do you use?
[22:31] <ailo> KDE?
[22:32] <astraljava> On the laptop I have Ubuntu Classic, on the desktop I have Studio 11.04.
[22:32] <astraljava> So basically, GNOME 2.
[22:33] <astraljava> But come Monday, I'm installing Xubuntu, Kubuntu, vanilla (with Unity and gnome-shell), lubuntu, debian sid, you name it.
[22:33] <ailo> I'm on Oneiric now. Pretty happy with Unity, except for not being able to tweak some things (haven't yet got around to finding out how to do it). I also like Gnome3. I see why people are allergic to any Mac reference, but I find them to be great UI's
[22:34] <ailo> Especially when we start using touch screens more (which seems probable)
[22:34] <astraljava> No touch on Macs, really, so can't comment on that.
[22:34] <ailo> And, I'm really starting to hate the mouse
[22:35] <astraljava> I've hated it since 2005.
[22:35] <astraljava> Even before, but couldn't really live without one before that.
[22:36] <ailo> I like the scroll wheel. That's my favorite part on the mouse
[22:37] <astraljava> Yeah it's alright.
[22:37] <astraljava> Also, in some cases, the only way of doing c[opy|ut]/paste in *nix.
[23:32] <ScottL> ailo, astraljava, i'm sure a menu entry could start lash and open a template
[23:33] <ScottL> falktx would be a better resource however to answer confirm my thought
[23:33] <ailo> ScottL, What thought is that?
[23:33] <falktx> ScottL: hm, please explain
[23:38] <ScottL> oh, sorry, talking about using the menu to "start a new audio application" using a template
[23:39] <ailo> ScottL, You mean, "Start a new Audio Project"
[23:39] <ScottL> whether the menu is the conventional menu or one provide a system tray indicator menu
[23:39] <ScottL> ailo, aye, yes...my apologies
[23:40] <ScottL> falktx, can lash be started and open a template from the command line?
[23:40] <falktx> ScottL: well, for starters, lash is not working on oneiric at all
[23:41] <falktx> maybe you mean ladish?
[23:41] <ScottL> err, i mispoke again, falktx, yes i meant ladish
[23:41] <ailo> ScottL, No conventional menu. My idea is to have a submenu to a us-controls-indicator menu that has "Start New Audio Project", "Start New Graphics Project", "Start New Video Project". And, if we have a floating panel, a custom US dock, we could have those there as well
[23:42]  * ScottL apologizes as he's doing dinner with family and trying to read backscroll and type
[23:42] <ScottL> falktx, is it possible to start ladish and open a template from the command line?
[23:43] <ScottL> if so, this will certainly facilitate ailo's desire to provide an abbreviated way for new users to start projects
[23:43] <ailo> ScottL, This is the easiest way I can see making practice of workflows
[23:44] <ailo> falktx, ladish_control?
[23:45] <falktx> ailo: ladish has a dbus interface, you should use that for development
[23:45] <falktx> ailo: if you're going to use qt, you can easily wrap my klaudia widget into a window though
[23:46] <ailo> falktx, You are welcome to help with -controls, if you wish
[23:46] <ailo> falktx, I don't care if it's qt or gtk
[23:46]  * falktx is developing systray.py, a cross-desktop systray implementation (gtk, qt, kde, app-indicator support)
[23:46] <ailo> Sounds great
[23:46] <falktx> ailo: I will release Klaudia (v1.0) very very soon
[23:47] <falktx> ailo: I just need to get the website done (engine already completed) so the app has some docs when released
[23:47] <falktx> ailo: if it's not too late, I would love to push it to debian -> ubuntu oneiric
[23:47] <falktx> ScottL: ^ 
[23:48] <ailo> falktx, I believe it's too late :(
[23:48] <falktx> really?
[23:48] <falktx> :(
[23:49] <falktx> persia: you're the ubuntu guy right? can you comment on this?
[23:51] <ailo> Oneiric is behaving strange. Banshee will block audio for flash-plugin
[23:51] <ailo> Both using PA
[23:52] <ailo> Banshee is behaving strange, perhaps