[09:24] Yeah I saw some email correspondence related to that. Nice! [12:29] Anyone else notice how much Ubuntu is starting to adjust towards mac? Single click indicators. Now I noticed you can't delete files in Nautilus using the DEL button. You have to right click and choose "move to trash" [12:31] ailo: have you seen gnome3 ? [12:31] that's a full blown copy [12:31] (of mac) [12:31] You think so? [12:31] ailo: ubuntu has unity, which I like and feels a bit original [12:31] I've only used it a little [12:31] ailo: gnome3 is a ripoff of mac [12:31] * falktx looks for screens [12:32] Isn't Unity a simplified rip-off of Gnome3? [12:32] ailo: no, unity is made from scratch [12:32] it uses gtk3, but not gnome itself [12:33] ailo: note the mac preferences - http://www.demogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Mac-OSX-System-Preferences.jpg [12:34] ailo: now look at gnome 3 -> http://ompldr.org/vODNhaw/gnome_3_settings.png [12:34] It's the same in Unity [12:34] They are using Gnome3 as base now [12:35] ailo: ah, yes, but gnome3 != gnome3-shell [12:35] Right [12:35] Personal and Hardware are the top things in the screenshots [12:35] ailo: gnome3 also copied the mac way of showing dialogs (not a new window, but slide from the top) [12:37] It does seem a lot of mac functionality is being used [12:37] And installing Ubuntu on a mac should feel more natural [12:37] The system settings part is pretty good in my opinion [12:38] The "power button menu" in the top right how has more options [12:38] System settings, updates.. [12:39] I'm happy someone made a indicator version of the hardware monitor applate [12:39] applet* [12:40] What I like about both Gnome3 and Unity is the menu [12:40] I don't like gnome3 [12:41] Well, you are a KDE guy [12:41] the systray is the worse thing I ever saw [12:43] I don't really care too much about mac. As long as the desktop is functional [13:09] ailo: Please keep in mind, though, that ubuntu != GNOME [13:09] Granted, the vanilla uses that exclusively, but Canonical people don't make those decisions [13:24] True. Ubuntu is not Gnome3. But, Unity looks very similar to Gnome3 [13:33] I can imagine. But I'm not willing to see it for myself. :D [13:34] Guess I will have to, though, in order to keep providing support on #ubuntu. (granted, very sporadic) [17:49] hm, who is Cory? [17:49] (ie, his nickname) [18:04] falktx, ckontros I think [18:04] * falktx wonders why he's not on irc [18:05] falktx, He may be, but not logged into this channel. [18:06] ok [18:07] I'll be sad to not see US oneiric [18:07] at least we should try [18:13] Cory is the previous Studio head. [18:14] The one that got the thing going. [18:15] oh [18:16] But yeah. That's his opinion. He's not the head anymore, so that's only one vote. The team will still decide. [18:23] Yeah, he proceeds as if he's the one who calls all the shots :P [18:23] but his proposal is exactly what I'm trying to do with KXStudio [18:23] if US would take that action, my guess it's that we could no longer call it "UbuntuStudio" [18:24] I would prefer US to be just a tuneup of Ubuntu [18:24] I've said that before [18:25] I would to [18:26] I want to make KXStudio like an extension of Ubuntu[Studio] [18:26] I will force people to start saying "I'm using Ubuntu", not "I'm using KXStudio", which is no longer a distro [18:26] at least this can help US a little [18:27] * falktx still needs to finish the website [18:27] A live CD would be great though [18:28] oh, yes, totally [18:28] one thing at a time [18:28] I promised ScottL I would help US with a live-cd and I will do that [18:29] What's the problem with getting US to base on Xubuntu now? [18:29] no one [18:29] I think it's a wise move [18:29] gnome3 and unity are not suited to multimedia production [18:29] IMHO, he gave up. If the rest of the team won't do that, we're fine. [18:29] cool [18:29] But we do need reinforcements. [18:29] I don't agree, but XFCE is still a good chooce [18:30] Lots of fresh blood. [18:30] falktx, How do you make your iso's? [18:31] Can't we just copy Xubuntu and make some very small changes to it? [18:31] We got the ball rolling again just the other day, in a conversation between holstein, ailo, ScottL and yours truly. We'll make it. [18:31] ailo: I have a script for that. I create a debian chroot, install packages, and pack it into an ISO [18:32] ailo: That thing is under works, and should be testable (is that a word?) soon-ish. Before the beta1 anyway. [18:32] I really don't think it matters so much how the desktop looks, or what panels we use, as long as we have a working distro [18:32] As littel changes as possible, I think [18:33] At the same time, I have no idea about tuning a distro for multimedia on a lower level, which US used to be good at, I guess [18:34] Performance is the most important issue. To get stable performance [18:34] That is why I always thought -lowlatency was important [18:35] The live ISO would just serve as an example anyway [18:36] And if you can't get stable performance installing the packages from the main repo, it sucks a bit, I think [18:36] XFCE would in my view only be one way to go [18:38] The user should be able to use any derivative, and just by installing the US meta packages be able to get a good system for multimedia [18:38] So, I agree with both falktx and ckontros [18:39] Who's working on the iso, then? [18:40] currently no one [18:41] Xubuntu has two iso's. One is live, and one is alternate [18:42] How hard would it be to just copy the Xubuntu live CD, and adjust the preinstalled packages? [18:42] Of course, I realize you need to change a few things here and there [18:43] later [20:07] ailo: That's why we never considered live-cd/dvd so important. It wouldn't necessarily deliver the same performance. But these days, people got tons of RAM. It might work. [20:08] astraljava: i agree, we can make it [20:08] cory is not in here [20:08] The branding used to be the reason, together with the already available set of packages to do most everything a multimedia-related worker needed to do. [20:09] holstein: We can. I'm a bit worried for 12.04, as it's an LTS, and it should be S-O-L-I-D. [20:10] But, with a good 11.10, we could deliver. [20:11] i mean, i brought that up before too [20:11] going to just PPA's [20:11] just meta packages [20:11] thats something we could discuss again [20:12] astraljava: im a fan of the live CD installer for a couple reasons [20:12] firstly, testing... folks can see how the hardware will work with JACK [20:12] the installation process too from the alternate CD is not friendly [20:13] i have not talked to *any* person who flawlessly install 11.04 from the ubuntustudio CD [20:13] over in #ubuntustudio [20:13] holstein: Yeah, but then again, people can see whether their hw works with vanilla live cd. Studio doesn't necessarily be used for that. [20:13] astraljava: not really [20:13] We would certainly not be using PPAs for that. [20:13] JACK is not there, and if we have a -lowlatency kernel, you can test that from the live CD [20:13] They're bound to be out of official support, always. [20:14] astraljava: +, we are literally the only multimedia distro thats *not* live [20:14] Okay, valid points, there. [20:14] astraljava, There will be no loss in performance whatsoever with a live CD [20:14] i think new users expect to see the tools live [20:14] i know i do [20:14] I don't care about being "out there" or not. Every distro does it their own way. [20:14] ailo: There will, unless you can fit everything needed into RAM. [20:15] sure... but, i really agree with the reasoning, so thats why i suggest it [20:15] i would have never gotten over the hump so to speak without the 64studio live CD [20:15] 2.whatever [20:15] holstein: I understand that it would be great to have that possibility. [20:15] i see lots of that in the support channel too [20:15] most everyone [20:16] "i installed ubuntustudio and its not doing whatever" [20:16] "it sucks, i hate it" [20:16] and some of that is opinion for sure [20:16] astraljava, The only difference is that loading programs takes longer time. I don't count that as a loss in performance [20:16] The programs still run just as fast [20:16] but, i feel like some of it could be made easier for them [20:16] Sure. Ubuntu has a name. It's fashionable to diss it. [20:16] them = the new user [20:16] unless we dont care about them [20:16] which is fine too [20:17] just take a stand as a technical level tool [20:17] Oh, but we do care. It's always just been a balance between what we can deliver, and who we have to leave out. [20:17] astraljava: that makes sense [20:17] what we *can* do [20:17] somewhere in the middle [20:18] i mean, ubuntu proper is/has been really good at filling that gap of something for the new user [20:18] and i think ubuntustudio has been that too [20:18] I mean, IMHO, Studio would be a leading distro, if we had thrice the developers we have had. [20:18] But at most, there has been like 3 at the time. [20:19] astraljava: im looking into what it would take for us to transition to official [20:19] like kubuntu [20:19] We're already official. [20:20] not really though [20:20] paid developers work on kubuntu [20:20] Together with Xubuntu, Kubuntu, and Mythbuntu. [20:20] and we dont have that [20:20] i *thought* we were too [20:20] But we're the only ones that are supported on #ubuntu. [20:21] Paid is a different thing. [20:21] That's up to Mark. [20:21] Ubuntu and Kubuntu are the only ones with paid developers [20:21] Cory was paid at one point. [20:21] yeah, im not sure what it takes yet [20:21] But it became evident that this was not going places enough, so they dropped it. [20:23] it has been refreshing to see the xubuntu team in action charlie-tca [20:23] you guys really have it together [20:23] But we are all volunteers, too [20:23] We have no paid developer [20:24] and for altogether, we only have two devs working on it [20:24] i keep thinking if we had a paid team member or 2, we could get something done [20:24] but, you guys do great [20:24] always have [20:24] We have our ups and downs [20:24] There was a big battle about three years ago that almost killed Xubuntu [20:24] i feel like maybe that happened here? [20:25] i feel like i came in on some aftermath, but maybe not [20:25] I don't know. It might be [20:25] we came within days of not having a distribution [20:25] That's happened with Studio as well. [20:26] It's not so surprising, really. [20:26] When there's no-one who's livelihood depends on it. [20:27] s/who's/whose/ [20:27] astraljava meant: "When there's no-one whose livelihood depends on it." [20:27] Right? [20:27] Oh look at that. [20:27] Right [20:27] * astraljava ^5s kubotu [20:27] When we are all volunteer, it is harder to find people to keep gooing [20:28] Or someones wet dream [20:28] s/gooing/going [20:28] Xubuntu went from 7 or 8 to two overnight back then' [20:28] Sad as it is, that's the truth. [20:29] People don't usually have all the time in the world for one of their interests [20:29] That's what shocks most of the newcomers in the OS projects. [20:30] They're all enthusiastic and ready to conquer the world. [20:30] yup, it takes a couple of very dedicated people to keep things rolling [20:30] But the oldies... they have priorities. [20:30] And most of the time, they clash. [20:31] charlie-tca's right. It only takes a few. [20:31] But good luck in finding the feww. [20:31] -w [20:31] It's a matter of timing too I think [20:32] That's exactly what I meant. [20:32] Priorities. [20:32] I sometimes think perhaps it [20:32] They're not constant. [20:32] is this conversation derived from cory's email? [20:32] ScottL: For sure. [20:33] astraljava, Yeah, but say 5 people might all have time at the same time, and then no one has. [20:33] ailo: Right. That's exactly what has happened to Studio. [20:33] * ScottL hasn't actually read backsroll but saw there was much of it [20:33] I believe in '05-'06, Studio had it going. [20:34] ScottL, What do you think of corys post? [20:34] But then, the downhill started. [20:34] It hasn't really picked up since then. [20:35] ailo, i have some thoughts about cory's email [20:35] Back then, we had Joe, Cory, and the guy I never seem to recall [20:35] but i would start before the email [20:35] And some devs to boot. [20:35] cory called me and we talked about twenty minutes on the phone [20:35] Then the whole thing fell apart. [20:35] Pieces only were picked since. [20:35] he has concerns about the trajectory of the project [20:36] especially in contrast to the history that astrajava is currently commenting [20:36] or recalling [20:37] cory has been an advocate for the "ppa method" for some time i believe [20:37] and cory made a very good point to me on the phone: [20:38] we devote an inordinate amount of time on integration, iso building, etc [20:38] ScottL, Was cory the only one working on the iso just now? [20:38] that takes away from what he called the goal of project, "showing what this software can do" [20:39] ailo, i'm not sure i understand your question is this a rhetorical question? [20:39] I agree with that statement. And that the iso should be mostly about that. While the meta packages should be where the focus is [20:39] aye, ailo, that was his point [20:40] he argument was that if we focused on using a ppa to "upgrade" from vanilla to ubuntu we focus more on packaging and less on other things [20:40] ScottL, I mean, who was leading the work on getting the iso to be based on Xubuntu? [20:40] well, cory has made significant changes, but astraljava has likewise made significant changes [20:41] a second aspect of cory's concern was that we have few contributors/developers and we seem to be overwhelmed (as detected by the lack of progress) [20:41] I would be fine with UbuntuStudio based on a live Xubuntu ISO, and just changing as little as needed. As long as it performs well. [20:41] My only objection against using plain PPAs is the official support that we're having. [20:41] We're not many. [20:42] If we have to provide support ourselves, we're doomed. [20:42] astraljava, you make an excellent point, on that i would have made as well if no one else did not [20:42] oh, i wasn't going to say "we're doomed" however :P [20:43] From my point of view, that's enough payment for the effort that we're showing during the devel cycle. [20:43] ScottL: That's' because everything you say gets quoted in the press. :D [20:43] lol [20:44] i know there are several people who believe the ppa method is the route to be preferred... [20:44] but i wanted to mention our official status and the benefits that yields [20:44] Exactly. [20:44] It's something far more than people really realize. [20:45] i can see advantages and disadvantages to both sides...i do not advocate a position at this point [20:45] Building a derivate isn't just about releasing an .iso. [20:45] I think ppa's are fine for testing. But, isn't the idea to keep the meta packages up to date as well? [20:45] We're committing to it for 18 months at the time, a minimum. [20:46] Sometimes even longer. [20:46] aye, but we can choose our own release schedule for those ISO's, astraljava [20:46] ailo: That's what we're doing. Creating meta-packages for the convenience of the users. [20:46] we can only do LTS, or just every year, of whenever we damn well feel like it [20:47] ScottL: True, but the packages are still bound to higher-ups' schedules. [20:47] ailo, astraljava: cory made another point i'll mention, we can create more meta-packages in ppa to help with installation of applications based on work flows [20:47] ScottL: Sure, but every new meta increases the workload. [20:47] ScottL, That doesn't sound like a point to me though [20:47] astraljava, we can work more directly with back ports or choose to create a ppa for updating packages to our release version [20:48] ScottL, I want to see those workflows outlined to the detail before I agree that is a point [20:48] the more subtle point is that we CAN move stuff into the ppa if we choose [20:48] That's a good thing, aye. [20:49] to an extreme that we are similar to kxstudio and pull most packages from ppa if we chose [20:49] It's a good place to do experiments [20:49] But again, it's out of #ubuntu's scope, so not a very sought-after thing, in the end. [20:49] again, i'm not advocating, just discussion what is possible [20:50] That's good, keep the discussion flowing. [20:50] astraljava, So, what's missing for the iso to work? [20:51] Is there some sort of a roadmap somewhere for it? [20:51] I'm just curious on what the problem is with that [20:52] ScottL: you got a good grasp on it [20:52] I tried to explain the same thing to Lubuntu. Ubuntu is a tool for those of us trying to help with other derivatives [20:52] It is not an iron-clad rule maker, for any of us. [20:53] charlie-tca, thank you :) [20:53] i fear that i have moment of clarity on specific subject only though [20:53] That's all any of us get, I think. [20:53] argh, moments... and subjects.... [20:54] It totally depends on what you want. [20:54] Official support? [20:54] Play by the rules. [20:54] It's when we think we have to keep up with Ubuntu that it hurts us [20:54] More freedom? [20:54] You're almost on your own. [20:55] yes, you are. Ubuntu provides us with hosted images, and time frames that work sometimes [20:55] They are also willing to fix a lot of bugs that we do not have resources to even look at. [20:55] my main concern if we choose the ppa method is that we will loose recognition and ISO building rights that we may never claim again [20:55] astraljava, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-meta/+bug/806672 ? [20:55] Ubuntu bug 806672 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu Oneiric) "UbuntuStudio Oneiric Alpha2 fails to install - unmet dependencies" [Critical,Triaged] [20:55] ScottL: That's exactly right. [20:56] ScottL: It's why I'm still fighting, to keep what we have going for us. [20:56] ailo: Without looking, those are fixed, but not uploaded since we didn't come to an agreement of what we want to have by default. [20:58] TheMuso: Could you upload ubuntustudio.oneiric so we can see what fails now, when new .isos are being built? [20:58] cory also seemed a little disappointed that dev discussions had not been happening on the mailing list recently [20:58] I will try to do the testing tomorrow, if I have time, but due to my limited bandwidth, it'll most likely have to wait until next week. [20:58] he seemed to think this reflected activity [20:58] i assure him it did not [20:58] as we discuss things quite frequently here [20:59] Yeah. Why isn't he on IRC? [20:59] work and family...he commented that work was especially busy lately [20:59] At least I don't have time to double everything on the ML. [21:00] Yeah but okay, there's still irclogs.u.c [21:02] So, people. Could you please have a look @ https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.oneiric [21:03] Tell us, what's your opinion. What should not be there, and what should, but is not. [21:03] We have 2 weeks until beta1. [21:04] Nothing can be added, that's not already in oneiric repos (excluding FFes, but highly unlikely). [21:04] But within those limits. [21:05] Because, that's the stuff that depicts how the session will look like [21:05] If you don't like it now, you won't like it when the release happens. [21:06] I should probably throw it on the ML, too. [21:06] astraljava, i think the main focus should be to get luke to update the metas so we can test an image [21:06] just my opinion, mind you [21:08] I know, but just in case we have overlooked something that's obvious, really. [21:08] And I just pinged him, so we should see some results soon. [21:13] Right, we get some ML activity. I feel we should have more of that anyway, that's one thing Cory is right about. [21:14] Not all people can hang on IRC all the time, even though I just mentioned the logs [21:14] There's lots of room for development. [21:14] That's one thing. [21:14] I too think anything important should always be posted on the mail list [21:15] The holy trinity, IMHO, is IRC - wiki - ML. [21:16] Currently we're doing pretty well on the first two. [21:17] i am still of the mind that clearly and consensually identify our audience and goals would help answer most of our questions of late [21:18] it's hard to make decisions without knowing what we are trying to accomplish [21:19] I have the same view I had when I started hanging out here [21:19] i doubt we will find easy consensus however among those present much less amongst those not present [21:19] I think US should be a tuneup of Ubuntu for multimedia. It should make Ubuntu perform well for anything multimedia and have easy ways of finding apps and documentation for them [21:20] The ISO should be a showcase. An example [21:20] So, did we get anywhere in defining those audiences and goals? [21:21] ailo, by "tune up" do you mean a state of being or an installing process? [21:21] astraljava, i don't think so [21:21] ScottL, -lowlatency is an example of a package that makes Ubuntu perform better for audio use [21:22] okay, i think i understand that [21:22] If there are additional packages/settings that are required for one to get good performance, I would count those in under the performance criteria [21:23] Then, there's guidance [21:23] Guiding the user [21:23] Which is where workflows comes in, and documentation. [21:23] As well as ubuntustudio-controls [21:24] When it comes to UI, I'm not that concerned. The simpler, the better [21:24] Let the user decide which derivative, and which UI [21:24] Of course, meta-packages for multimedia apps is helpful too [21:25] Even though, a comprehensive database might be even better [21:25] ailo, are you expected an experienced user, both with linux and music? [21:25] A database needs to be updated for every release [21:27] No. Not at all [21:27] this is where i am... i can *totally* get behind the PPA only idea... i just feel like we discussed this back in april, and decided to do XFCE [21:27] if we are comfortable letting the work we have done go, lets entertain it [21:27] we being astraljava and others... i havent personally done much [21:27] Yeah. That's where our expectations differ. What we currently (mostly) have, are devs who know what needs to be done package/config -wise. But we lack in the documentation people. [21:27] ppa only, to me, seems like giving up completely. Then it's just another distro [21:28] it would take a bit of pressure off [21:28] holstein: Sure, but only temporarily. [21:28] i mean, we already decided back in april *not* to do PPA's only [21:28] and we have talked about it since then [21:29] For me, the whole point of US is to be the standard multimedia framwork for all Ubuntu based distros [21:29] Once the support questions come piling in, we're screwed (not Scott's opinion, I know) [21:29] maybe [21:29] And once those are left unanswered, we're practically no more. [21:29] it might help make things consistent too [21:29] i mean, no more 'did you install from the DVD?' [21:29] TBH, i usually talk people *out* of using the ubuntustudio installer [21:30] I wouldn't be interested in working on UbuntuStudio, if it was not in the main repo. Then I could just make my own ppa instead [21:30] holstein: Doesn't matter. [21:30] new folks at least [21:30] Either way, people in the official support channels will support ours. [21:30] If we are to deviate from that... [21:30] ailo: would this kick it out of the main repo? [21:30] the software? [21:30] thats a deal breaker [21:30] We can as well pack up our things and go home. [21:31] holstein, a packages status in the repository will not change [21:31] when JACK got promoted or whatever, that really helped [21:33] ailo, can you explain what type of user you envision using ubuntu studio? [21:33] ScottL, I think universally. [21:33] * ScottL has been thinking about the multimedia distro ecosphere lately [21:33] ScottL, That's been my focus all along [21:35] ScottL, ailo, astraljava ... can we just do LTS releases? [21:35] ailo, so you expect the audience to inexperienced to experienced as both linux users and musicians, is that a fair representation? [21:35] and email to that effect just came through... [21:36] holstein: No, cause that way we won't get enough feedback for the next one. [21:36] feedback? [21:36] wheres the current feedback? [21:36] What works, what needs to get rid off... [21:36] Wherever Scott, you and ailo have been getting the comments from. [21:37] we haven't really been receiving much, if any, feedback except bug reports [21:37] astraljava, what sort of user do you expect for ubuntu studio? [21:37] holstein, can you answer the same question as above? [21:38] But you guys are all the time going over these "US sucks, they do this they do that, what the hell?!" [21:38] astraljava, i think those are mainly in other IRC channels [21:38] That's feedback. [21:38] Not direct, but still. [21:39] If we only have LTS releases, there's like 18 months of silence, during which we have to guess. [21:39] Then there's the devel progress of vanilla. [21:39] Let's face it, we're heavily leaning on them. [21:40] astraljava, holstein, would you humor me and describe what user you see using Ubuntu Studio please? [21:40] not what you currently see, what you expect [21:40] Indirectly, as we're now more directly leaning on charlie-tca et al. :D [21:41] ScottL: Don't ask me, I'm the work-horse here. :) I'm just grateful it fulfills my need of providing a recording/slight mixing of my own stuff. [21:41] okay, i will share mine now then... [21:42] i expect newbies, both to linux and music, to use ubuntu studio from the ISO [21:42] i think those that become experienced will move to using vanilla ubuntu and installing their own packages, either the meta's or just packages [21:43] ScottL, I think we should be able to give newbies what they need already from any Ubuntu derivative [21:43] i consider autostatic (and perhaps some here in channel presently) to be examples of the "experienced" users i described above [21:43] We would only need one installable meta package in Software Center [21:44] yeah... new folks to multimedia [21:44] either in general, or from ubuntu [21:44] or other linux's [21:44]