falktxailo: but how do the *-controls packaging works?00:00
falktxailo: let's say US has a new release ready, would it be able to be pushed to the repos?00:00
falktx(release of the *-controls)00:01
ailofalktx, -controls was removed, since it has not been updated. So, I don't think you can upload it after feature freeze. I'm not sure tbh00:01
falktxthis sucks00:04
falktxailo: so basically all the work we can do right now is the meta-packages?00:04
falktxScottL: did you reviewed that xfce menu patch?00:04
falktxI see the problem here...00:13
falktx...everyone is busy with their own lives00:14
falktxwe should ask canonical to paid a member of US for full time development00:14
falktxthere's nothing to lose in doing so, right?00:15
falktxat least we try00:15
ScottLfalktx, i did not finish reviewing the xfce menu patch because i could not get the xfce menu to misbehave00:25
falktxScottL: oh, so you're happy with the current implementation?00:26
astraljavafalktx: Why do you need a website for the docs, when there are manpages and infopages available?00:26
holstein...and wikis... dont forget the wikis..00:27
astraljavafalktx: oneiric, way too late.00:27
falktxastraljava: because I want to make a PDF doc for it, and it has to reflect the content on the website00:27
falktxastraljava: the website is actually a wiki by itself00:28
astraljavafalktx: Okay.00:32
astraljavaIt'll have man/info -pages too, right?00:32
astraljavaCause if you want it to debian, it's gotta have.00:32
falktxhaha, yes, debian and it's man pages00:37
falktxastraljava: the app does not listen to any cmd arguments though00:37
astraljavaYeah. I'm not too sure about the requirements, then. I'm afraid they're gonna require man or info pages anyhow. Could be wrong, though.00:39
falktxastraljava: afaik, if it doesn't exist, they will "automatically" create one for me ;)00:39
astraljavaOh that's cool.00:40
falktxok, basic info added now:01:20
ailofalktx, The licensing part for the applications shown in Kladia does not seem right10:39
ailo"open source" is not a license10:39
ailoOr even a type of license10:39
falktxailo: "license" might not be the best string there10:41
falktxailo: it's just to say wherever it's open, freeware, shareware or demo10:42
ailofalktx, "open source" will not tell you if it's free or not. That's what I mean10:42
falktxailo: ah, yes, but what can I use then?10:43
falktxGPL, LGPL, BSD, etc is no go, user will be very confused10:44
ailofalktx, You could use "free"10:45
falktxailo: there is already freeware10:47
falktxfreeware != open10:47
ailofalktx, Not freeware. License type = free10:48
ailoFree as in free speach10:48
falktxailo: I believe opensource it's better. there is not a single "open but not free" in there10:48
ailofalktx, It's not correct though10:48
falktxyes, but users will understand10:49
ailofalktx, You'd rather use slang?10:49
falktxthis is a too technical situation a small app like this should not care about10:49
falktxmaybe I should change the string "license"10:49
falktxrelease model?10:50
ailofalktx, I think you are creating misinformation, even when you want to do something good10:50
ailomisinformation is never a good thing10:50
falktxailo: please help me pick a new string to replace "license" then10:51
falktx"release model" sounds good to me10:51
ailofalktx, It might be better to use a symbol that represents "<something> approved" as a link, that shows what sort of licenses those are10:51
ailoI mean, the link could open a dialog, or a web page where all licenses are explained10:52
ailofalktx, Why not?10:52
falktxisn't that just too much?10:52
falktxailo: the webpage explains it10:52
ailofalktx, But not correctly10:53
falktxI just have to change the "license" name10:53
falktxailo: imagine if that field had writen "release model", would it be fine then?10:53
ailofalktx, Out of respect for the licenses, I would really take care to inform the user correctly on those10:53
ailoWhy not use <license>+"kx-approved" that points to a link. In the link you explain kx-approved means the license is free as in free speach. And then you give a list of all licenses that are kx-approved.10:56
ailoGPL "KX approved"10:56
falktxailo: but then freeware is not a license as well10:56
ailofalktx, That's true10:57
falktxso I guess I need to change that string anyway10:57
ailofalktx, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open_source_software10:59
ailoOr "FLOSS"10:59
falktxailo: but then freeware is not a license as well11:00
falktxI can change opensource to FLOSS, but my guess is that some people don't know what it is11:00
ailofalktx, Just provide a link11:01
ailoTakes 1 min to find out11:01
falktxwhat if the user has no internet atm?11:01
falktxthis means an internal dialog, more work for me...11:02
falktxlicense should not be explained, users usually don't care if it's open or not, just that it works11:02
falktxbeing open it's just like a bonus in this case I guess11:03
ailofalktx, Can't say I approve of your lazy attitude towards these quite important details11:05
falktxailo: the thing is, I don't really believe this is *that* important11:06
ailofalktx, I can see that11:06
falktxI only added that field because I added some non-free content to my repos, otherwise it will all be free11:07
falktxailo: what about this:11:07
falktxlicense -> Free & Open Source11:07
ailofalktx, "Free & Open Source" is grouping two categories together11:08
ailoOne of them free, one of them open source11:08
ailoAnd some are of course both11:08
ailoOr, I guess, free is always open source11:08
ailoBut open source is not always free11:08
falktxailo: see^ this is what I'm talking about11:09
falktxa small app like this should not confuse users with this11:09
falktxI think I'll stick with 'release model'11:09
ailofalktx, FLOSS is a correct term. You can write it as "FLOSS (free)"11:10
falktxif the user wants to know more, he can check the website11:10
ailofalktx, The website is not explaining it correctly either11:10
falktxailo: yes yes, I'm saying cause I'll fix it11:10
ailofalktx, Sorry, I was wrong about one thing though. "Free and Open Source" == FOSS11:22
falktxailo: I think you understand that is a too much technical matter that most users don't care about much11:23
falktxeven I11:23
falktxI don't care if it's BSD, GPL, LGPL or whatever, as long as it's open11:24
ailofalktx, You have a responsibility to inform them correctly11:24
ailofalktx, The user does not care of course.11:24
ailoAnyway, I'm not a license expert11:25
ailofalktx, If you would use loose terms, that are non-technical, I would use "free" and "non-free"11:26
falktxailo: I want to inform the user about the license, in 4 ways possible:11:26
falktxfree & open source11:27
falktxfree but closed11:27
falktxclosed, demo but functional11:27
falktxclosed, demo restricted11:27
falktxailo: ^ this is the 4 "licenses" I show to the user currently11:27
* astraljava grumbles13:20
astraljavaAnyone got an oneiric system up and running, up-to-date as well?13:20
falktxI never even tried13:33
falktxtoo many changes in oneiric13:33
falktxspecially multilib13:34
astraljavaYeah okay.13:34
astraljavaIt seems I have to wait until tomorrow to see why we're having these sick and twisted dependencies and packages in the first place drawn into our image.13:34
falktxmaybe an alpha iso is good, I doubt current/live ISOs are installable13:34
astraljavafalktx: I'm not looking into a usable system, but something that could query the package database, as package.u.c is conveniently not working right now, and I'm definitely not going to install now over this 3G when I can wait until tomorrow for a real line.13:36
astraljavaI can, but I wouldn't want to. :)13:36
ailoastraljava, I'm on oneiric13:44
ailoastraljava, What do you need?13:44
astraljavaailo: I'll have to compile all the suspicious packages into a list, and then see where they come from. But it's gonna take some time.13:55
astraljavaTheMuso: What does that "No space left on device" mean? What device?13:56
astraljavaTheMuso: Sorry, I'll elaborate. our daily failed to build, and it looks like that's the reason.13:58
ScottLastraljava, oh, that is unfortunate news as i was downloading the latest daily image15:35
ScottLastraljava, are you actually in correspondence with luke or do your queries remain unanswered?15:38
ScottL 15:41
ScottLastraljava, holstein, ailo: i would like for us to further consider a few points based on our conversation yesterday15:41
holsteinsure... whats up?15:42
ScottLi believe we agreed that our target audience should be people unfamiliar with linux and/or recording music15:42
holsteinyeah, the new user, for the most part15:42
ScottLbut this will require a commitment from each of us15:42
ScottLa perfect plan without effort will still fail15:43
ScottLi would like to see what we can accomplish in this direction until at least the next LTS version15:44
ScottLbut i would feel more comfortable about our station if others are in agreement, both in body and spirit :)15:44
holsteinScottL: you mean with the new user plan?15:45
holsteini mean, we're not going to break it for the savvy folk15:45
holsteinis there opposition to this?15:45
holsteinyou say cory doesnt argree?15:45
ScottLthat is a multifaceted question15:47
ScottLi _think_ that cory may not agree with this audience15:47
holsteinand thats fine15:48
ScottLhe is certainly entitled to his opinion15:48
ScottLbut others others appear to support this audience15:48
ScottLi _think_ cory would prefer that we move to the "ppa method"15:48
holsteini can get with that too15:49
ScottLi am unsure why he appears to desire as he does *shrug*15:49
holsteinbut, not now15:49
holsteinits too late15:49
holsteini mean, its never too late...15:49
holsteinbut, we did already decide to release15:49
ScottLmy previous statement is based on previous conversations as long as a year ago15:49
holsteinunless we are all in agreement15:49
* falktx - although busy, wants to tell that he wants to help too15:50
ScottLour mantra should be how can we best serve the user, in terms of what is being provided and what we _can_ provide15:50
ScottLthanks falktx  :)  you are amazing by the way, brilliant15:50
holsteini think the new user struggles with parts of the installer15:51
falktxhehe, ScottL, you rock sir15:51
holsteinalso, i think its unclear how similar ubuntu and ubuntustudio are15:51
falktxholstein: US should have a wiki!15:51
falktxa good wiki15:51
holsteinfalktx: lol... thats all we got is wiki's15:51
falktxnot the one Ubuntu provides15:51
ScottLholstein, an intro that launched directly after installation would help explain some convinient facts for new people15:51
falktxholstein: I mean, the website itself should have a built-in wiki15:52
holsteinthe new user doesnt know about them... thats another issue15:52
falktxScottL: oh oh, I can easilt make that15:52
falktxbut then, so as ailo15:52
holsteini see bascially 3 users in #ubuntustudio15:52
falktxScottL: what about a wizard like app with screenshots?15:52
holsteinthe normal user with questions about JACK or whatever15:52
holsteinthen, the guys that dont know how the installer works15:53
ScottLfalktx is a possibility15:53
holstein3rd at the somewhat savvy ubuntu users setting up a dualboot 15:53
holsteinthey dont understand that the packages are the same15:53
ScottLholstein, what if we eliminated the installer15:53
holsteinScottL: thats what im thinking, and proposing15:53
falktxScottL: that is very easy to do with Qt, and you can program it with a gui15:53
holsteinno installer... just packages to add15:54
holsteinno installer issues, or maintanance15:54
falktxheh, US needs an ISO...15:54
holsteinarguably a more consistent experience15:54
ScottLa last point that cory may or may not agree with is that we (the team) have not maintained the development momentum to complete our goal15:54
holsteinScottL: i thought that was cory's point in the email15:55
holsteinwe are not going to make the iso goal15:55
ScottLwe may not15:55
ScottLthat is ture15:55
holsteinlike now... the iso is broken15:55
holsteini dont know jack about how to fix it15:55
holsteinand cant help at all15:56
ScottLholstein, i believe astraljava is trying to actively look into the broken iso currently15:56
holsteinand thats great, but should that be one persons responsibiliy?15:56
holsteincan we maintain that?15:56
holsteinthis is what i mean when i say all we do is put out fires15:56
ScottLi do not know that it will require constant attention15:57
holsteinif we didnt build an iso, we could maybe focus on other more manageable tasks15:57
ScottLwe are certainly suffering to effects of significant changes to the seeds15:57
ScottLi would not expect that will be a common occurrence for every phase of every cycle15:58
holsteinand just have a community spin or 2 hosted on the site15:58
ScottLholstein, then we would need to develop other means to build the images then15:58
holsteinfalktx could have one, you make one15:58
ScottLi've also been thinking about studio bugs...15:58
holsteinno official image15:58
holsteini think that 'respin' idea might get folks into US more15:59
ScottLmost aren't ours, we could easily be aggressive and change who is responsible on the bug15:59
holsteinif a community poped up around it15:59
ScottLbut this will not support new users though, holstein 15:59
falktxhm, sorry, but I really think stop making an ISO is a really bad idea15:59
holsteinScottL: they will add the packages15:59
holsteinand they have more options as far as images to try out15:59
ScottLubuntu is known to be friendly and accessible for new users16:00
falktxI really appreciatte a light US system that contains good stuff16:00
holsteinfalktx: i agree, actually... but, if we cant do it, we cant do it16:00
ScottLwe have inherent branding on this then16:00
ScottLholstein, i think we can16:00
holsteinme too16:00
ScottLwe have squandered months of this cycle not aggressively fixing things16:00
ScottLi don't think the system is broken or the idea is unjust...i just think WE failed16:00
holsteinbut, theres an email that says "we are not releasing an iso"16:00
ScottLmyself most of all16:00
holsteini think that needs to be addressed16:01
ScottLholstein, do you mean cory's email?16:01
ScottLi thought that it said we were considering not releasing it16:01
falktxwe should at least try16:02
falktxdamn, what is so wrong with the iso that it doesn't even build?16:02
holsteinProducing a Ubuntu Studio install disk must stop. Even now, in the16:02
holsteinmiddle of a cycle.16:02
ScottLfalktx, i agree that we should still support the ISO images16:02
falktxholstein: why do you think so?16:03
ScottLfalktx, i would speak with astraljava about the images, he has more experience and first hand knowledge about this particular breakage16:03
holsteinfalktx: thats from the email16:03
holsteini think we can make an iso16:03
falktxoh, right16:03
holsteini just want to transition to a live installer16:03
falktxlive installer would be tricky16:03
falktxand is not possible at this point16:03
falktxwe need custom artwork, text, and send them to the ubiquity team at least16:04
falktxsome new package "ubiquity-ubuntustudio" would be required16:04
holsteinfalktx: this doesnt have to happen right now, for sure16:06
ailoI would like to help with the iso. I've only just begun reading about how that works though. But, anything I can do to help, just let me know16:06
ScottLholstein, astraljava , ailo , falktx :  cory's email does require a response from at least some of us16:07
ScottLif only to say that some people DO support keeping the ISO images working16:07
ScottLi will also respond later16:07
holsteini decided not to respond, but i can...16:08
* falktx adds to the TODO16:08
ailoI'm still wondering about what the problem is with the iso, and if anyone is qualified to handle that properly16:09
ailoAs long as we have one person who knows how to make it work, that should be enough16:10
falktxI have no idea how Ubuntu makes those isos... :(16:11
holsteinok... im out...16:11
ScottLholstein, as long as we keep it civil and uninflammatory16:12
ScottLon the mailing list16:12
holsteini think i did alright16:12
ailoLooks good to me holstein 16:12
ScottLailo, the problems with the ISO might just be dependencies or it could be some anomalies derived from within the build process16:13
ScottLailo, however i would suggest that if other alternate build are being built correctly then it is probably the former16:13
ailoScottL, How much are we able to change concerning package selection at this point?16:14
ailoScottL, If it's a matter of broken dependencies, something to do with gnome2, or obsolete software, we should be able to solve that pretty quickly, no?16:15
ScottLailo, my understanding is that we have a considerable amount of autonomy for our packages16:21
ScottLtherefore i would say that if we can identify the problem we can correct the situation without reproach16:22
ScottLalthough that latitude might diminish the closer we approach the release candidate16:24
astraljavaScottL: Did you get the email regarding the build of dailies? I'm not still very sure how to read them, but it seems that the amd64 version was fine. I believe Luke has been sleeping for a while now, but will probably reply when up again.16:49
astraljavaThe deal with the .iso currently isn't particularily rocket science. What it needs is daily care, that's all. Something I haven't been able to do, but will hopefully be from now on.16:55
astraljavaImages are built almost every day, so you make changes to the seeds, and see during the following night how they worked.16:56
astraljavaAlso, you can setup the procedure on your own machine, and I plan to do that during next week.16:56
astraljavaIt's obviously not 100% similar to the builders @ Canonical, but close.16:57
astraljavaI haven't felt doing it so far, while missing a real broadband line,16:58
astraljavabut as I'm getting one tomorrow, then that's another problem solved.16:58
astraljavaHowever, taking up the live-cd job, like was already suggested, is gonna take a lot more work.16:59
astraljavaGranted, there are three alphas every cycle, and two betas, plus countless dailies.16:59
astraljavaSo in theory, once you (okay me, maybe someone else, ailo perhaps?) read about how that is done, it shouldn't be too hard either.17:00
astraljavaRegarding the commitment on the devel cycle, ScottL is right. That's something that needs to be happening, or we don't release. Now I know that we can decide not to release anyway, too.17:01
astraljavaAnd that's fine. We can do that.17:01
astraljavaHowever, the one after this is the LTS. We _want_ those out.17:01
astraljavaIMNSHO we should practice now, so we get it right for the LTS.17:02
astraljavaI thiny my monologue is over, for now.17:03
ailoastraljava, I'll have a look at that tomorrow. I would like to set up that on my own machine.17:03
astraljavaailo: I'll be looking at this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement17:11
ScottLastraljava, ailo, holstein: we might need to make adjustments to priorities and expectations for the next LTS release17:58
ScottLit is possible that we may not be positioned to make 12.04 (the LTS release) a live dvd17:59
ScottLi say this since we are still working on integrating the xfce transition17:59
ScottLit might be possible in the next two months to complete the integration but i do not have confidence at this point that we will17:59
ScottLand we might spend appreciable time in 12.04 to complete this18:00
ScottLastraljava, i haven't looked at the email at this point about the cd image but i shall this afternoon18:00
astraljavaScottL: The only big thing about it was just the "No space left on device" part, and I'm assuming that's got nothing to do with us, really.18:30
astraljavaOtherwise it looks like the images are there, but I don't wanna try to download until tomorrow.18:31
holsteini started adding to the wiki page cory made18:46
falktxholstein: needs some syntax fixes18:50
ailoAgain, there's a notion that we won't need a custom kernel19:00
ailoWhich sounds great, if it's true19:01
holsteinailo: i added that19:48
holsteinabout the kernel19:48
holsteini'll believe it when i see it... personally19:49
ailoholstein, As long as -generic is not able to deliver fool-proof low latency, I don't see how we can survive without a custom kernel19:50
holsteinailo: its still down the road for sure19:50
holsteini just dont think we need to take kernel creation and maintenance to an extreme since its probaly going to be ok for use to just use the -generic one soon19:51
holsteindebian is already doing that19:51
ailoholstein, What do you mean, debian is already doing that?19:51
holsteinailo: debian has no realtime kernel19:53
holsteinthe debian multimedia team19:53
ailoholstein, They never had19:53
holsteinailo: i thought they did...19:53
* holstein shrugs19:53
ailoI need to try some testing with -generic and changing the cpu governor settings19:55
ailoI'm not expecting any miracles though19:55
ailoholstein, -lowlatency is far from extreme. 19:55
holsteinseveral OSMP'ers are using -generic19:55
holsteinsay its going well... even firewire users...19:56
holsteinim still on -realtime in lucid19:56
ailoholstein, We need facts to proof anything. So far, the numbers speak clearly agains -generic19:57
ailo-lowlatency is -generic, but with a few extra configs19:57
holsteini really started to take notice with one particular USB device i have that works *so* much better with -generic19:58
holsteinits odd19:58
holsteinbut, thats not what i find with firewire19:58
ailoholstein, Did you try with -lowlatency?19:58
ailoThe older kernels are starting to be really old19:58
ailoAnything older than 2.6.38 doesn't count19:59
ailoIn my book19:59
ailoOr, 2.6.39 really19:59
ailoSince it introduced the rtirq thing19:59
ailoholstein, On Debian I tried the -generic. It sucked bigtime20:01
ailoOn Squeeze20:01
ailoThen I built 2.6.38 from source, with -lowlatency config20:01
ailoSame as, or better than -realtime20:01
holsteinailo: i want to say yes20:02
holsteinbut its been a while20:02
holsteinim pretty sure i have all 320:02
holsteinmaybe the PAE on that machine too20:02
astraljavaDebian has -rt kernel in testing now: http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/linux-image-rt-amd6420:03
* astraljava hopes next week will be easier than the past few20:13
astraljavaI didn't get anything done that I was supposed to20:13

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