[00:00] ailo: but how do the *-controls packaging works? [00:00] ailo: let's say US has a new release ready, would it be able to be pushed to the repos? [00:01] (release of the *-controls) [00:01] falktx, -controls was removed, since it has not been updated. So, I don't think you can upload it after feature freeze. I'm not sure tbh [00:04] this sucks [00:04] ailo: so basically all the work we can do right now is the meta-packages? [00:04] ScottL: did you reviewed that xfce menu patch? [00:13] I see the problem here... [00:14] ...everyone is busy with their own lives [00:14] we should ask canonical to paid a member of US for full time development [00:15] there's nothing to lose in doing so, right? [00:15] at least we try [00:25] falktx, i did not finish reviewing the xfce menu patch because i could not get the xfce menu to misbehave [00:26] ScottL: oh, so you're happy with the current implementation? [00:26] falktx: Why do you need a website for the docs, when there are manpages and infopages available? [00:27] ...and wikis... dont forget the wikis.. [00:27] falktx: oneiric, way too late. [00:27] astraljava: because I want to make a PDF doc for it, and it has to reflect the content on the website [00:28] astraljava: the website is actually a wiki by itself [00:32] falktx: Okay. [00:32] It'll have man/info -pages too, right? [00:32] Cause if you want it to debian, it's gotta have. [00:37] haha, yes, debian and it's man pages [00:37] astraljava: the app does not listen to any cmd arguments though [00:39] Yeah. I'm not too sure about the requirements, then. I'm afraid they're gonna require man or info pages anyhow. Could be wrong, though. [00:39] astraljava: afaik, if it doesn't exist, they will "automatically" create one for me ;) [00:40] Oh that's cool. [01:20] ok, basic info added now: [01:20] http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/KXStudio:Applications:Klaudia [10:39] falktx, The licensing part for the applications shown in Kladia does not seem right [10:39] "open source" is not a license [10:39] Or even a type of license [10:41] ailo: "license" might not be the best string there [10:42] ailo: it's just to say wherever it's open, freeware, shareware or demo [10:42] falktx, "open source" will not tell you if it's free or not. That's what I mean [10:43] ailo: ah, yes, but what can I use then? [10:44] GPL, LGPL, BSD, etc is no go, user will be very confused [10:45] falktx, You could use "free" [10:47] ailo: there is already freeware [10:47] freeware != open [10:48] falktx, Not freeware. License type = free [10:48] Free as in free speach [10:48] ailo: I believe opensource it's better. there is not a single "open but not free" in there [10:48] falktx, It's not correct though [10:49] yes, but users will understand [10:49] falktx, You'd rather use slang? [10:49] this is a too technical situation a small app like this should not care about [10:49] maybe I should change the string "license" [10:50] release model? [10:50] falktx, I think you are creating misinformation, even when you want to do something good [10:50] misinformation is never a good thing [10:51] ailo: please help me pick a new string to replace "license" then [10:51] "release model" sounds good to me [10:51] falktx, It might be better to use a symbol that represents " approved" as a link, that shows what sort of licenses those are [10:52] I mean, the link could open a dialog, or a web page where all licenses are explained [10:52] really? [10:52] falktx, Why not? [10:52] isn't that just too much? [10:52] ailo: the webpage explains it [10:52] http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/KXStudio:Applications:Klaudia [10:53] falktx, But not correctly [10:53] I just have to change the "license" name [10:53] ailo: imagine if that field had writen "release model", would it be fine then? [10:53] falktx, Out of respect for the licenses, I would really take care to inform the user correctly on those [10:56] Why not use +"kx-approved" that points to a link. In the link you explain kx-approved means the license is free as in free speach. And then you give a list of all licenses that are kx-approved. [10:56] GPL "KX approved" [10:56] ailo: but then freeware is not a license as well [10:57] falktx, That's true [10:57] so I guess I need to change that string anyway [10:59] falktx, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open_source_software [10:59] "FOSS" [10:59] Or "FLOSS" [10:59] again [11:00] ailo: but then freeware is not a license as well [11:00] I can change opensource to FLOSS, but my guess is that some people don't know what it is [11:00] newbies... [11:01] falktx, Just provide a link [11:01] Takes 1 min to find out [11:01] what if the user has no internet atm? [11:02] this means an internal dialog, more work for me... [11:02] license should not be explained, users usually don't care if it's open or not, just that it works [11:03] being open it's just like a bonus in this case I guess [11:05] falktx, Can't say I approve of your lazy attitude towards these quite important details [11:06] ailo: the thing is, I don't really believe this is *that* important [11:06] falktx, I can see that [11:07] I only added that field because I added some non-free content to my repos, otherwise it will all be free [11:07] ailo: what about this: [11:07] license -> Free & Open Source [11:08] falktx, "Free & Open Source" is grouping two categories together [11:08] One of them free, one of them open source [11:08] And some are of course both [11:08] Or, I guess, free is always open source [11:08] But open source is not always free [11:09] ailo: see^ this is what I'm talking about [11:09] a small app like this should not confuse users with this [11:09] I think I'll stick with 'release model' [11:10] falktx, FLOSS is a correct term. You can write it as "FLOSS (free)" [11:10] if the user wants to know more, he can check the website [11:10] falktx, The website is not explaining it correctly either [11:10] ailo: yes yes, I'm saying cause I'll fix it [11:22] falktx, Sorry, I was wrong about one thing though. "Free and Open Source" == FOSS [11:23] ailo: I think you understand that is a too much technical matter that most users don't care about much [11:23] even I [11:24] I don't care if it's BSD, GPL, LGPL or whatever, as long as it's open [11:24] falktx, You have a responsibility to inform them correctly [11:24] falktx, The user does not care of course. [11:25] Anyway, I'm not a license expert [11:26] falktx, If you would use loose terms, that are non-technical, I would use "free" and "non-free" [11:26] ailo: I want to inform the user about the license, in 4 ways possible: [11:27] free & open source [11:27] free but closed [11:27] closed, demo but functional [11:27] closed, demo restricted [11:27] ailo: ^ this is the 4 "licenses" I show to the user currently [13:20] * astraljava grumbles [13:20] Anyone got an oneiric system up and running, up-to-date as well? [13:33] I never even tried [13:33] too many changes in oneiric [13:34] specially multilib [13:34] Yeah okay. [13:34] It seems I have to wait until tomorrow to see why we're having these sick and twisted dependencies and packages in the first place drawn into our image. [13:34] maybe an alpha iso is good, I doubt current/live ISOs are installable [13:36] falktx: I'm not looking into a usable system, but something that could query the package database, as package.u.c is conveniently not working right now, and I'm definitely not going to install now over this 3G when I can wait until tomorrow for a real line. [13:36] I can, but I wouldn't want to. :) [13:44] astraljava, I'm on oneiric [13:44] astraljava, What do you need? [13:46] bbs [13:55] ailo: I'll have to compile all the suspicious packages into a list, and then see where they come from. But it's gonna take some time. [13:56] TheMuso: What does that "No space left on device" mean? What device? [13:58] TheMuso: Sorry, I'll elaborate. our daily failed to build, and it looks like that's the reason. [15:35] astraljava, oh, that is unfortunate news as i was downloading the latest daily image [15:38] astraljava, are you actually in correspondence with luke or do your queries remain unanswered? [15:41] [15:41] astraljava, holstein, ailo: i would like for us to further consider a few points based on our conversation yesterday [15:42] sure... whats up? [15:42] i believe we agreed that our target audience should be people unfamiliar with linux and/or recording music [15:42] yeah, the new user, for the most part [15:42] but this will require a commitment from each of us [15:43] a perfect plan without effort will still fail [15:44] i would like to see what we can accomplish in this direction until at least the next LTS version [15:44] but i would feel more comfortable about our station if others are in agreement, both in body and spirit :) [15:45] ScottL: you mean with the new user plan? [15:45] i mean, we're not going to break it for the savvy folk [15:45] is there opposition to this? [15:45] you say cory doesnt argree? [15:45] agree* [15:47] that is a multifaceted question [15:47] i _think_ that cory may not agree with this audience [15:48] and thats fine [15:48] right? [15:48] he is certainly entitled to his opinion [15:48] but others others appear to support this audience [15:48] i _think_ cory would prefer that we move to the "ppa method" [15:49] i can get with that too [15:49] i am unsure why he appears to desire as he does *shrug* [15:49] but, not now [15:49] its too late [15:49] i mean, its never too late... [15:49] but, we did already decide to release [15:49] my previous statement is based on previous conversations as long as a year ago [15:49] unless we are all in agreement [15:50] * falktx - although busy, wants to tell that he wants to help too [15:50] our mantra should be how can we best serve the user, in terms of what is being provided and what we _can_ provide [15:50] thanks falktx :) you are amazing by the way, brilliant [15:51] i think the new user struggles with parts of the installer [15:51] hehe, ScottL, you rock sir [15:51] also, i think its unclear how similar ubuntu and ubuntustudio are [15:51] holstein: US should have a wiki! [15:51] a good wiki [15:51] falktx: lol... thats all we got is wiki's [15:51] not the one Ubuntu provides [15:51] holstein, an intro that launched directly after installation would help explain some convinient facts for new people [15:52] holstein: I mean, the website itself should have a built-in wiki [15:52] the new user doesnt know about them... thats another issue [15:52] ScottL: oh oh, I can easilt make that [15:52] but then, so as ailo [15:52] i see bascially 3 users in #ubuntustudio [15:52] ScottL: what about a wizard like app with screenshots? [15:52] the normal user with questions about JACK or whatever [15:53] then, the guys that dont know how the installer works [15:53] falktx is a possibility [15:53] 3rd at the somewhat savvy ubuntu users setting up a dualboot [15:53] they dont understand that the packages are the same [15:53] holstein, what if we eliminated the installer [15:53] ? [15:53] ScottL: thats what im thinking, and proposing [15:53] ScottL: that is very easy to do with Qt, and you can program it with a gui [15:54] no installer... just packages to add [15:54] no installer issues, or maintanance [15:54] heh, US needs an ISO... [15:54] arguably a more consistent experience [15:54] a last point that cory may or may not agree with is that we (the team) have not maintained the development momentum to complete our goal [15:55] ScottL: i thought that was cory's point in the email [15:55] we are not going to make the iso goal [15:55] we may not [15:55] that is ture [15:55] like now... the iso is broken [15:55] true [15:55] i dont know jack about how to fix it [15:56] and cant help at all [15:56] holstein, i believe astraljava is trying to actively look into the broken iso currently [15:56] and thats great, but should that be one persons responsibiliy? [15:56] can we maintain that? [15:56] this is what i mean when i say all we do is put out fires [15:57] i do not know that it will require constant attention [15:57] if we didnt build an iso, we could maybe focus on other more manageable tasks [15:57] we are certainly suffering to effects of significant changes to the seeds [15:58] i would not expect that will be a common occurrence for every phase of every cycle [15:58] and just have a community spin or 2 hosted on the site [15:58] holstein, then we would need to develop other means to build the images then [15:58] yup [15:58] falktx could have one, you make one [15:58] whatever... [15:58] i've also been thinking about studio bugs... [15:58] no official image [15:59] i think that 'respin' idea might get folks into US more [15:59] most aren't ours, we could easily be aggressive and change who is responsible on the bug [15:59] if a community poped up around it [15:59] but this will not support new users though, holstein [15:59] hm, sorry, but I really think stop making an ISO is a really bad idea [15:59] ScottL: they will add the packages [15:59] and they have more options as far as images to try out [16:00] ubuntu is known to be friendly and accessible for new users [16:00] I really appreciatte a light US system that contains good stuff [16:00] falktx: i agree, actually... but, if we cant do it, we cant do it [16:00] we have inherent branding on this then [16:00] holstein, i think we can [16:00] me too [16:00] we have squandered months of this cycle not aggressively fixing things [16:00] i don't think the system is broken or the idea is unjust...i just think WE failed [16:00] but, theres an email that says "we are not releasing an iso" [16:00] myself most of all [16:01] i think that needs to be addressed [16:01] holstein, do you mean cory's email? [16:01] yup [16:01] i thought that it said we were considering not releasing it [16:02] we should at least try [16:02] damn, what is so wrong with the iso that it doesn't even build? [16:02] Producing a Ubuntu Studio install disk must stop. Even now, in the [16:02] middle of a cycle. [16:02] falktx, i agree that we should still support the ISO images [16:03] holstein: why do you think so? [16:03] falktx, i would speak with astraljava about the images, he has more experience and first hand knowledge about this particular breakage [16:03] falktx: thats from the email [16:03] i think we can make an iso [16:03] oh, right [16:03] i just want to transition to a live installer [16:03] live installer would be tricky [16:03] and is not possible at this point [16:04] we need custom artwork, text, and send them to the ubiquity team at least [16:04] some new package "ubiquity-ubuntustudio" would be required [16:06] falktx: this doesnt have to happen right now, for sure [16:06] I would like to help with the iso. I've only just begun reading about how that works though. But, anything I can do to help, just let me know [16:07] holstein, astraljava , ailo , falktx : cory's email does require a response from at least some of us [16:07] if only to say that some people DO support keeping the ISO images working [16:07] i will also respond later [16:08] i decided not to respond, but i can... [16:08] * falktx adds to the TODO [16:09] I'm still wondering about what the problem is with the iso, and if anyone is qualified to handle that properly [16:10] As long as we have one person who knows how to make it work, that should be enough [16:11] yep [16:11] I have no idea how Ubuntu makes those isos... :( [16:11] ok... im out... [16:12] holstein, as long as we keep it civil and uninflammatory [16:12] on the mailing list [16:12] i think i did alright [16:12] Looks good to me holstein [16:13] ailo, the problems with the ISO might just be dependencies or it could be some anomalies derived from within the build process [16:13] ailo, however i would suggest that if other alternate build are being built correctly then it is probably the former [16:14] ScottL, How much are we able to change concerning package selection at this point? [16:15] ScottL, If it's a matter of broken dependencies, something to do with gnome2, or obsolete software, we should be able to solve that pretty quickly, no? [16:21] ailo, my understanding is that we have a considerable amount of autonomy for our packages [16:22] therefore i would say that if we can identify the problem we can correct the situation without reproach [16:24] although that latitude might diminish the closer we approach the release candidate [16:49] ScottL: Did you get the email regarding the build of dailies? I'm not still very sure how to read them, but it seems that the amd64 version was fine. I believe Luke has been sleeping for a while now, but will probably reply when up again. [16:55] The deal with the .iso currently isn't particularily rocket science. What it needs is daily care, that's all. Something I haven't been able to do, but will hopefully be from now on. [16:56] Images are built almost every day, so you make changes to the seeds, and see during the following night how they worked. [16:56] Also, you can setup the procedure on your own machine, and I plan to do that during next week. [16:57] It's obviously not 100% similar to the builders @ Canonical, but close. [16:58] I haven't felt doing it so far, while missing a real broadband line, [16:58] but as I'm getting one tomorrow, then that's another problem solved. [16:59] However, taking up the live-cd job, like was already suggested, is gonna take a lot more work. [16:59] Granted, there are three alphas every cycle, and two betas, plus countless dailies. [17:00] So in theory, once you (okay me, maybe someone else, ailo perhaps?) read about how that is done, it shouldn't be too hard either. [17:01] Regarding the commitment on the devel cycle, ScottL is right. That's something that needs to be happening, or we don't release. Now I know that we can decide not to release anyway, too. [17:01] And that's fine. We can do that. [17:01] However, the one after this is the LTS. We _want_ those out. [17:02] IMNSHO we should practice now, so we get it right for the LTS. [17:03] I thiny my monologue is over, for now. [17:03] think* [17:03] astraljava, I'll have a look at that tomorrow. I would like to set up that on my own machine. [17:11] ailo: I'll be looking at this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement [17:58] astraljava, ailo, holstein: we might need to make adjustments to priorities and expectations for the next LTS release [17:59] it is possible that we may not be positioned to make 12.04 (the LTS release) a live dvd [17:59] i say this since we are still working on integrating the xfce transition [17:59] it might be possible in the next two months to complete the integration but i do not have confidence at this point that we will [18:00] and we might spend appreciable time in 12.04 to complete this [18:00] astraljava, i haven't looked at the email at this point about the cd image but i shall this afternoon [18:30] ScottL: The only big thing about it was just the "No space left on device" part, and I'm assuming that's got nothing to do with us, really. [18:31] Otherwise it looks like the images are there, but I don't wanna try to download until tomorrow. [18:46] i started adding to the wiki page cory made [18:46] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/NewStudio [18:50] holstein: needs some syntax fixes [19:00] Again, there's a notion that we won't need a custom kernel [19:01] Which sounds great, if it's true [19:48] ailo: i added that [19:48] about the kernel [19:49] i'll believe it when i see it... personally [19:50] holstein, As long as -generic is not able to deliver fool-proof low latency, I don't see how we can survive without a custom kernel [19:50] ailo: its still down the road for sure [19:51] i just dont think we need to take kernel creation and maintenance to an extreme since its probaly going to be ok for use to just use the -generic one soon [19:51] debian is already doing that [19:51] holstein, What do you mean, debian is already doing that? [19:53] ailo: debian has no realtime kernel [19:53] the debian multimedia team [19:53] holstein, They never had [19:53] ailo: i thought they did... [19:53] * holstein shrugs [19:55] I need to try some testing with -generic and changing the cpu governor settings [19:55] I'm not expecting any miracles though [19:55] holstein, -lowlatency is far from extreme. [19:55] several OSMP'ers are using -generic [19:56] say its going well... even firewire users... [19:56] im still on -realtime in lucid [19:57] holstein, We need facts to proof anything. So far, the numbers speak clearly agains -generic [19:57] -lowlatency is -generic, but with a few extra configs [19:58] i really started to take notice with one particular USB device i have that works *so* much better with -generic [19:58] its odd [19:58] but, thats not what i find with firewire [19:58] holstein, Did you try with -lowlatency? [19:58] The older kernels are starting to be really old [19:59] Anything older than 2.6.38 doesn't count [19:59] In my book [19:59] Or, 2.6.39 really [19:59] Since it introduced the rtirq thing [20:01] holstein, On Debian I tried the -generic. It sucked bigtime [20:01] On Squeeze [20:01] Then I built 2.6.38 from source, with -lowlatency config [20:01] Same as, or better than -realtime [20:02] ailo: i want to say yes [20:02] but its been a while [20:02] im pretty sure i have all 3 [20:02] maybe the PAE on that machine too [20:03] Debian has -rt kernel in testing now: http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/linux-image-rt-amd64 [20:05] interesting [20:13] * astraljava hopes next week will be easier than the past few [20:13] I didn't get anything done that I was supposed to