[00:00] <falktx> ailo: but how do the *-controls packaging works?
[00:00] <falktx> ailo: let's say US has a new release ready, would it be able to be pushed to the repos?
[00:01] <falktx> (release of the *-controls)
[00:01] <ailo> falktx, -controls was removed, since it has not been updated. So, I don't think you can upload it after feature freeze. I'm not sure tbh
[00:04] <falktx> this sucks
[00:04] <falktx> ailo: so basically all the work we can do right now is the meta-packages?
[00:04] <falktx> ScottL: did you reviewed that xfce menu patch?
[00:13] <falktx> I see the problem here...
[00:14] <falktx> ...everyone is busy with their own lives
[00:14] <falktx> we should ask canonical to paid a member of US for full time development
[00:15] <falktx> there's nothing to lose in doing so, right?
[00:15] <falktx> at least we try
[00:25] <ScottL> falktx, i did not finish reviewing the xfce menu patch because i could not get the xfce menu to misbehave
[00:26] <falktx> ScottL: oh, so you're happy with the current implementation?
[00:26] <astraljava> falktx: Why do you need a website for the docs, when there are manpages and infopages available?
[00:27] <holstein> ...and wikis... dont forget the wikis..
[00:27] <astraljava> falktx: oneiric, way too late.
[00:27] <falktx> astraljava: because I want to make a PDF doc for it, and it has to reflect the content on the website
[00:28] <falktx> astraljava: the website is actually a wiki by itself
[00:32] <astraljava> falktx: Okay.
[00:32] <astraljava> It'll have man/info -pages too, right?
[00:32] <astraljava> Cause if you want it to debian, it's gotta have.
[00:37] <falktx> haha, yes, debian and it's man pages
[00:37] <falktx> astraljava: the app does not listen to any cmd arguments though
[00:39] <astraljava> Yeah. I'm not too sure about the requirements, then. I'm afraid they're gonna require man or info pages anyhow. Could be wrong, though.
[00:39] <falktx> astraljava: afaik, if it doesn't exist, they will "automatically" create one for me ;)
[00:40] <astraljava> Oh that's cool.
[01:20] <falktx> ok, basic info added now:
[01:20] <falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/KXStudio:Applications:Klaudia
[10:39] <ailo> falktx, The licensing part for the applications shown in Kladia does not seem right
[10:39] <ailo> "open source" is not a license
[10:39] <ailo> Or even a type of license
[10:41] <falktx> ailo: "license" might not be the best string there
[10:42] <falktx> ailo: it's just to say wherever it's open, freeware, shareware or demo
[10:42] <ailo> falktx, "open source" will not tell you if it's free or not. That's what I mean
[10:43] <falktx> ailo: ah, yes, but what can I use then?
[10:44] <falktx> GPL, LGPL, BSD, etc is no go, user will be very confused
[10:45] <ailo> falktx, You could use "free"
[10:47] <falktx> ailo: there is already freeware
[10:47] <falktx> freeware != open
[10:48] <ailo> falktx, Not freeware. License type = free
[10:48] <ailo> Free as in free speach
[10:48] <falktx> ailo: I believe opensource it's better. there is not a single "open but not free" in there
[10:48] <ailo> falktx, It's not correct though
[10:49] <falktx> yes, but users will understand
[10:49] <ailo> falktx, You'd rather use slang?
[10:49] <falktx> this is a too technical situation a small app like this should not care about
[10:49] <falktx> maybe I should change the string "license"
[10:50] <falktx> release model?
[10:50] <ailo> falktx, I think you are creating misinformation, even when you want to do something good
[10:50] <ailo> misinformation is never a good thing
[10:51] <falktx> ailo: please help me pick a new string to replace "license" then
[10:51] <falktx> "release model" sounds good to me
[10:51] <ailo> falktx, It might be better to use a symbol that represents "<something> approved" as a link, that shows what sort of licenses those are
[10:52] <ailo> I mean, the link could open a dialog, or a web page where all licenses are explained
[10:52] <falktx> really?
[10:52] <ailo> falktx, Why not?
[10:52] <falktx> isn't that just too much?
[10:52] <falktx> ailo: the webpage explains it
[10:52] <falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/KXStudio:Applications:Klaudia
[10:53] <ailo> falktx, But not correctly
[10:53] <falktx> I just have to change the "license" name
[10:53] <falktx> ailo: imagine if that field had writen "release model", would it be fine then?
[10:53] <ailo> falktx, Out of respect for the licenses, I would really take care to inform the user correctly on those
[10:56] <ailo> Why not use <license>+"kx-approved" that points to a link. In the link you explain kx-approved means the license is free as in free speach. And then you give a list of all licenses that are kx-approved.
[10:56] <ailo> GPL "KX approved"
[10:56] <falktx> ailo: but then freeware is not a license as well
[10:57] <ailo> falktx, That's true
[10:57] <falktx> so I guess I need to change that string anyway
[10:59] <ailo> falktx, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open_source_software
[10:59] <ailo> "FOSS"
[10:59] <ailo> Or "FLOSS"
[10:59] <falktx> again
[11:00] <falktx> ailo: but then freeware is not a license as well
[11:00] <falktx> I can change opensource to FLOSS, but my guess is that some people don't know what it is
[11:00] <falktx> newbies...
[11:01] <ailo> falktx, Just provide a link
[11:01] <ailo> Takes 1 min to find out
[11:01] <falktx> what if the user has no internet atm?
[11:02] <falktx> this means an internal dialog, more work for me...
[11:02] <falktx> license should not be explained, users usually don't care if it's open or not, just that it works
[11:03] <falktx> being open it's just like a bonus in this case I guess
[11:05] <ailo> falktx, Can't say I approve of your lazy attitude towards these quite important details
[11:06] <falktx> ailo: the thing is, I don't really believe this is *that* important
[11:06] <ailo> falktx, I can see that
[11:07] <falktx> I only added that field because I added some non-free content to my repos, otherwise it will all be free
[11:07] <falktx> ailo: what about this:
[11:07] <falktx> license -> Free & Open Source
[11:08] <ailo> falktx, "Free & Open Source" is grouping two categories together
[11:08] <ailo> One of them free, one of them open source
[11:08] <ailo> And some are of course both
[11:08] <ailo> Or, I guess, free is always open source
[11:08] <ailo> But open source is not always free
[11:09] <falktx> ailo: see^ this is what I'm talking about
[11:09] <falktx> a small app like this should not confuse users with this
[11:09] <falktx> I think I'll stick with 'release model'
[11:10] <ailo> falktx, FLOSS is a correct term. You can write it as "FLOSS (free)"
[11:10] <falktx> if the user wants to know more, he can check the website
[11:10] <ailo> falktx, The website is not explaining it correctly either
[11:10] <falktx> ailo: yes yes, I'm saying cause I'll fix it
[11:22] <ailo> falktx, Sorry, I was wrong about one thing though. "Free and Open Source" == FOSS
[11:23] <falktx> ailo: I think you understand that is a too much technical matter that most users don't care about much
[11:23] <falktx> even I
[11:24] <falktx> I don't care if it's BSD, GPL, LGPL or whatever, as long as it's open
[11:24] <ailo> falktx, You have a responsibility to inform them correctly
[11:24] <ailo> falktx, The user does not care of course.
[11:25] <ailo> Anyway, I'm not a license expert
[11:26] <ailo> falktx, If you would use loose terms, that are non-technical, I would use "free" and "non-free"
[11:26] <falktx> ailo: I want to inform the user about the license, in 4 ways possible:
[11:27] <falktx> free & open source
[11:27] <falktx> free but closed
[11:27] <falktx> closed, demo but functional
[11:27] <falktx> closed, demo restricted
[11:27] <falktx> ailo: ^ this is the 4 "licenses" I show to the user currently
[13:20]  * astraljava grumbles
[13:20] <astraljava> Anyone got an oneiric system up and running, up-to-date as well?
[13:33] <falktx> I never even tried
[13:33] <falktx> too many changes in oneiric
[13:34] <falktx> specially multilib
[13:34] <astraljava> Yeah okay.
[13:34] <astraljava> It seems I have to wait until tomorrow to see why we're having these sick and twisted dependencies and packages in the first place drawn into our image.
[13:34] <falktx> maybe an alpha iso is good, I doubt current/live ISOs are installable
[13:36] <astraljava> falktx: I'm not looking into a usable system, but something that could query the package database, as package.u.c is conveniently not working right now, and I'm definitely not going to install now over this 3G when I can wait until tomorrow for a real line.
[13:36] <astraljava> I can, but I wouldn't want to. :)
[13:44] <ailo> astraljava, I'm on oneiric
[13:44] <ailo> astraljava, What do you need?
[13:46] <ailo> bbs
[13:55] <astraljava> ailo: I'll have to compile all the suspicious packages into a list, and then see where they come from. But it's gonna take some time.
[13:56] <astraljava> TheMuso: What does that "No space left on device" mean? What device?
[13:58] <astraljava> TheMuso: Sorry, I'll elaborate. our daily failed to build, and it looks like that's the reason.
[15:35] <ScottL> astraljava, oh, that is unfortunate news as i was downloading the latest daily image
[15:38] <ScottL> astraljava, are you actually in correspondence with luke or do your queries remain unanswered?
[15:41] <ScottL>  
[15:41] <ScottL> astraljava, holstein, ailo: i would like for us to further consider a few points based on our conversation yesterday
[15:42] <holstein> sure... whats up?
[15:42] <ScottL> i believe we agreed that our target audience should be people unfamiliar with linux and/or recording music
[15:42] <holstein> yeah, the new user, for the most part
[15:42] <ScottL> but this will require a commitment from each of us
[15:43] <ScottL> a perfect plan without effort will still fail
[15:44] <ScottL> i would like to see what we can accomplish in this direction until at least the next LTS version
[15:44] <ScottL> but i would feel more comfortable about our station if others are in agreement, both in body and spirit :)
[15:45] <holstein> ScottL: you mean with the new user plan?
[15:45] <holstein> i mean, we're not going to break it for the savvy folk
[15:45] <holstein> is there opposition to this?
[15:45] <holstein> you say cory doesnt argree?
[15:45] <holstein> agree*
[15:47] <ScottL> that is a multifaceted question
[15:47] <ScottL> i _think_ that cory may not agree with this audience
[15:48] <holstein> and thats fine
[15:48] <holstein> right?
[15:48] <ScottL> he is certainly entitled to his opinion
[15:48] <ScottL> but others others appear to support this audience
[15:48] <ScottL> i _think_ cory would prefer that we move to the "ppa method"
[15:49] <holstein> i can get with that too
[15:49] <ScottL> i am unsure why he appears to desire as he does *shrug*
[15:49] <holstein> but, not now
[15:49] <holstein> its too late
[15:49] <holstein> i mean, its never too late...
[15:49] <holstein> but, we did already decide to release
[15:49] <ScottL> my previous statement is based on previous conversations as long as a year ago
[15:49] <holstein> unless we are all in agreement
[15:50]  * falktx - although busy, wants to tell that he wants to help too
[15:50] <ScottL> our mantra should be how can we best serve the user, in terms of what is being provided and what we _can_ provide
[15:50] <ScottL> thanks falktx  :)  you are amazing by the way, brilliant
[15:51] <holstein> i think the new user struggles with parts of the installer
[15:51] <falktx> hehe, ScottL, you rock sir
[15:51] <holstein> also, i think its unclear how similar ubuntu and ubuntustudio are
[15:51] <falktx> holstein: US should have a wiki!
[15:51] <falktx> a good wiki
[15:51] <holstein> falktx: lol... thats all we got is wiki's
[15:51] <falktx> not the one Ubuntu provides
[15:51] <ScottL> holstein, an intro that launched directly after installation would help explain some convinient facts for new people
[15:52] <falktx> holstein: I mean, the website itself should have a built-in wiki
[15:52] <holstein> the new user doesnt know about them... thats another issue
[15:52] <falktx> ScottL: oh oh, I can easilt make that
[15:52] <falktx> but then, so as ailo
[15:52] <holstein> i see bascially 3 users in #ubuntustudio
[15:52] <falktx> ScottL: what about a wizard like app with screenshots?
[15:52] <holstein> the normal user with questions about JACK or whatever
[15:53] <holstein> then, the guys that dont know how the installer works
[15:53] <ScottL> falktx is a possibility
[15:53] <holstein> 3rd at the somewhat savvy ubuntu users setting up a dualboot 
[15:53] <holstein> they dont understand that the packages are the same
[15:53] <ScottL> holstein, what if we eliminated the installer
[15:53] <ScottL> ?
[15:53] <holstein> ScottL: thats what im thinking, and proposing
[15:53] <falktx> ScottL: that is very easy to do with Qt, and you can program it with a gui
[15:54] <holstein> no installer... just packages to add
[15:54] <holstein> no installer issues, or maintanance
[15:54] <falktx> heh, US needs an ISO...
[15:54] <holstein> arguably a more consistent experience
[15:54] <ScottL> a last point that cory may or may not agree with is that we (the team) have not maintained the development momentum to complete our goal
[15:55] <holstein> ScottL: i thought that was cory's point in the email
[15:55] <holstein> we are not going to make the iso goal
[15:55] <ScottL> we may not
[15:55] <ScottL> that is ture
[15:55] <holstein> like now... the iso is broken
[15:55] <ScottL> true
[15:55] <holstein> i dont know jack about how to fix it
[15:56] <holstein> and cant help at all
[15:56] <ScottL> holstein, i believe astraljava is trying to actively look into the broken iso currently
[15:56] <holstein> and thats great, but should that be one persons responsibiliy?
[15:56] <holstein> can we maintain that?
[15:56] <holstein> this is what i mean when i say all we do is put out fires
[15:57] <ScottL> i do not know that it will require constant attention
[15:57] <holstein> if we didnt build an iso, we could maybe focus on other more manageable tasks
[15:57] <ScottL> we are certainly suffering to effects of significant changes to the seeds
[15:58] <ScottL> i would not expect that will be a common occurrence for every phase of every cycle
[15:58] <holstein> and just have a community spin or 2 hosted on the site
[15:58] <ScottL> holstein, then we would need to develop other means to build the images then
[15:58] <holstein> yup
[15:58] <holstein> falktx could have one, you make one
[15:58] <holstein> whatever...
[15:58] <ScottL> i've also been thinking about studio bugs...
[15:58] <holstein> no official image
[15:59] <holstein> i think that 'respin' idea might get folks into US more
[15:59] <ScottL> most aren't ours, we could easily be aggressive and change who is responsible on the bug
[15:59] <holstein> if a community poped up around it
[15:59] <ScottL> but this will not support new users though, holstein 
[15:59] <falktx> hm, sorry, but I really think stop making an ISO is a really bad idea
[15:59] <holstein> ScottL: they will add the packages
[15:59] <holstein> and they have more options as far as images to try out
[16:00] <ScottL> ubuntu is known to be friendly and accessible for new users
[16:00] <falktx> I really appreciatte a light US system that contains good stuff
[16:00] <holstein> falktx: i agree, actually... but, if we cant do it, we cant do it
[16:00] <ScottL> we have inherent branding on this then
[16:00] <ScottL> holstein, i think we can
[16:00] <holstein> me too
[16:00] <ScottL> we have squandered months of this cycle not aggressively fixing things
[16:00] <ScottL> i don't think the system is broken or the idea is unjust...i just think WE failed
[16:00] <holstein> but, theres an email that says "we are not releasing an iso"
[16:00] <ScottL> myself most of all
[16:01] <holstein> i think that needs to be addressed
[16:01] <ScottL> holstein, do you mean cory's email?
[16:01] <holstein> yup
[16:01] <ScottL> i thought that it said we were considering not releasing it
[16:02] <falktx> we should at least try
[16:02] <falktx> damn, what is so wrong with the iso that it doesn't even build?
[16:02] <holstein> Producing a Ubuntu Studio install disk must stop. Even now, in the
[16:02] <holstein> middle of a cycle.
[16:02] <ScottL> falktx, i agree that we should still support the ISO images
[16:03] <falktx> holstein: why do you think so?
[16:03] <ScottL> falktx, i would speak with astraljava about the images, he has more experience and first hand knowledge about this particular breakage
[16:03] <holstein> falktx: thats from the email
[16:03] <holstein> i think we can make an iso
[16:03] <falktx> oh, right
[16:03] <holstein> i just want to transition to a live installer
[16:03] <falktx> live installer would be tricky
[16:03] <falktx> and is not possible at this point
[16:04] <falktx> we need custom artwork, text, and send them to the ubiquity team at least
[16:04] <falktx> some new package "ubiquity-ubuntustudio" would be required
[16:06] <holstein> falktx: this doesnt have to happen right now, for sure
[16:06] <ailo> I would like to help with the iso. I've only just begun reading about how that works though. But, anything I can do to help, just let me know
[16:07] <ScottL> holstein, astraljava , ailo , falktx :  cory's email does require a response from at least some of us
[16:07] <ScottL> if only to say that some people DO support keeping the ISO images working
[16:07] <ScottL> i will also respond later
[16:08] <holstein> i decided not to respond, but i can...
[16:08]  * falktx adds to the TODO
[16:09] <ailo> I'm still wondering about what the problem is with the iso, and if anyone is qualified to handle that properly
[16:10] <ailo> As long as we have one person who knows how to make it work, that should be enough
[16:11] <falktx> yep
[16:11] <falktx> I have no idea how Ubuntu makes those isos... :(
[16:11] <holstein> ok... im out...
[16:12] <ScottL> holstein, as long as we keep it civil and uninflammatory
[16:12] <ScottL> on the mailing list
[16:12] <holstein> i think i did alright
[16:12] <ailo> Looks good to me holstein 
[16:13] <ScottL> ailo, the problems with the ISO might just be dependencies or it could be some anomalies derived from within the build process
[16:13] <ScottL> ailo, however i would suggest that if other alternate build are being built correctly then it is probably the former
[16:14] <ailo> ScottL, How much are we able to change concerning package selection at this point?
[16:15] <ailo> ScottL, If it's a matter of broken dependencies, something to do with gnome2, or obsolete software, we should be able to solve that pretty quickly, no?
[16:21] <ScottL> ailo, my understanding is that we have a considerable amount of autonomy for our packages
[16:22] <ScottL> therefore i would say that if we can identify the problem we can correct the situation without reproach
[16:24] <ScottL> although that latitude might diminish the closer we approach the release candidate
[16:49] <astraljava> ScottL: Did you get the email regarding the build of dailies? I'm not still very sure how to read them, but it seems that the amd64 version was fine. I believe Luke has been sleeping for a while now, but will probably reply when up again.
[16:55] <astraljava> The deal with the .iso currently isn't particularily rocket science. What it needs is daily care, that's all. Something I haven't been able to do, but will hopefully be from now on.
[16:56] <astraljava> Images are built almost every day, so you make changes to the seeds, and see during the following night how they worked.
[16:56] <astraljava> Also, you can setup the procedure on your own machine, and I plan to do that during next week.
[16:57] <astraljava> It's obviously not 100% similar to the builders @ Canonical, but close.
[16:58] <astraljava> I haven't felt doing it so far, while missing a real broadband line,
[16:58] <astraljava> but as I'm getting one tomorrow, then that's another problem solved.
[16:59] <astraljava> However, taking up the live-cd job, like was already suggested, is gonna take a lot more work.
[16:59] <astraljava> Granted, there are three alphas every cycle, and two betas, plus countless dailies.
[17:00] <astraljava> So in theory, once you (okay me, maybe someone else, ailo perhaps?) read about how that is done, it shouldn't be too hard either.
[17:01] <astraljava> Regarding the commitment on the devel cycle, ScottL is right. That's something that needs to be happening, or we don't release. Now I know that we can decide not to release anyway, too.
[17:01] <astraljava> And that's fine. We can do that.
[17:01] <astraljava> However, the one after this is the LTS. We _want_ those out.
[17:02] <astraljava> IMNSHO we should practice now, so we get it right for the LTS.
[17:03] <astraljava> I thiny my monologue is over, for now.
[17:03] <astraljava> think*
[17:03] <ailo> astraljava, I'll have a look at that tomorrow. I would like to set up that on my own machine.
[17:11] <astraljava> ailo: I'll be looking at this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement
[17:58] <ScottL> astraljava, ailo, holstein: we might need to make adjustments to priorities and expectations for the next LTS release
[17:59] <ScottL> it is possible that we may not be positioned to make 12.04 (the LTS release) a live dvd
[17:59] <ScottL> i say this since we are still working on integrating the xfce transition
[17:59] <ScottL> it might be possible in the next two months to complete the integration but i do not have confidence at this point that we will
[18:00] <ScottL> and we might spend appreciable time in 12.04 to complete this
[18:00] <ScottL> astraljava, i haven't looked at the email at this point about the cd image but i shall this afternoon
[18:30] <astraljava> ScottL: The only big thing about it was just the "No space left on device" part, and I'm assuming that's got nothing to do with us, really.
[18:31] <astraljava> Otherwise it looks like the images are there, but I don't wanna try to download until tomorrow.
[18:46] <holstein> i started adding to the wiki page cory made
[18:46] <holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/NewStudio
[18:50] <falktx> holstein: needs some syntax fixes
[19:00] <ailo> Again, there's a notion that we won't need a custom kernel
[19:01] <ailo> Which sounds great, if it's true
[19:48] <holstein> ailo: i added that
[19:48] <holstein> about the kernel
[19:49] <holstein> i'll believe it when i see it... personally
[19:50] <ailo> holstein, As long as -generic is not able to deliver fool-proof low latency, I don't see how we can survive without a custom kernel
[19:50] <holstein> ailo: its still down the road for sure
[19:51] <holstein> i just dont think we need to take kernel creation and maintenance to an extreme since its probaly going to be ok for use to just use the -generic one soon
[19:51] <holstein> debian is already doing that
[19:51] <ailo> holstein, What do you mean, debian is already doing that?
[19:53] <holstein> ailo: debian has no realtime kernel
[19:53] <holstein> the debian multimedia team
[19:53] <ailo> holstein, They never had
[19:53] <holstein> ailo: i thought they did...
[19:53]  * holstein shrugs
[19:55] <ailo> I need to try some testing with -generic and changing the cpu governor settings
[19:55] <ailo> I'm not expecting any miracles though
[19:55] <ailo> holstein, -lowlatency is far from extreme. 
[19:55] <holstein> several OSMP'ers are using -generic
[19:56] <holstein> say its going well... even firewire users...
[19:56] <holstein> im still on -realtime in lucid
[19:57] <ailo> holstein, We need facts to proof anything. So far, the numbers speak clearly agains -generic
[19:57] <ailo> -lowlatency is -generic, but with a few extra configs
[19:58] <holstein> i really started to take notice with one particular USB device i have that works *so* much better with -generic
[19:58] <holstein> its odd
[19:58] <holstein> but, thats not what i find with firewire
[19:58] <ailo> holstein, Did you try with -lowlatency?
[19:58] <ailo> The older kernels are starting to be really old
[19:59] <ailo> Anything older than 2.6.38 doesn't count
[19:59] <ailo> In my book
[19:59] <ailo> Or, 2.6.39 really
[19:59] <ailo> Since it introduced the rtirq thing
[20:01] <ailo> holstein, On Debian I tried the -generic. It sucked bigtime
[20:01] <ailo> On Squeeze
[20:01] <ailo> Then I built 2.6.38 from source, with -lowlatency config
[20:01] <ailo> Same as, or better than -realtime
[20:02] <holstein> ailo: i want to say yes
[20:02] <holstein> but its been a while
[20:02] <holstein> im pretty sure i have all 3
[20:02] <holstein> maybe the PAE on that machine too
[20:03] <astraljava> Debian has -rt kernel in testing now: http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/linux-image-rt-amd64
[20:05] <holstein> interesting
[20:13]  * astraljava hopes next week will be easier than the past few
[20:13] <astraljava> I didn't get anything done that I was supposed to