[11:31] <Wolfger> morning
[11:37] <rick_h_> http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/28876290/index.html wife made the news with a flash of the little techie
[11:37] <rick_h_> and morning
[11:40] <Duolos> Good morning, Ubuntites.
[11:40] <rick_h_> party
[11:42] <Duolos> Hey, brousch
[11:42] <Duolos> Thanks for the approval :)
[11:43] <brousch> heh, no problem. i must have been the first one awake this morning
[11:47] <Wolfger> Learning Rails 3 pre-release on O'R DotD
[11:47] <snap-l> Wolfger: pass
[11:47] <Wolfger> rick_h_: congrats on being married to a TV star :-)
[11:48] <rick_h_> Wolfger: heh
[11:48] <snap-l> Bugger, I missed that last night
[11:49] <rick_h_> I went to bed
[11:49] <rick_h_> but saw it this morning
[11:49] <rick_h_> she did good in it, a little bit of the willow tree waving effect going on
[11:49] <rick_h_> but good
[11:49] <brousch> willow tree waving?
[11:49] <snap-l> http://www.clickondetroit.com/health/28873714/detail.html ?
[11:49] <rick_h_> shen she talks she waves back/forth
[11:50] <rick_h_> yea, that's the link she sent me this morning for it
[11:52] <snap-l> Yeah, you can tell she's a little nervous
[11:52] <snap-l> Love their edits
[11:53] <snap-l> You can tell she was talking much more than they used
[11:53] <rick_h_> yea
[11:53] <rick_h_> that's tv news spots I'd imagine
[11:54] <Wolfger> film lots, edit down to "the good stuff"
[11:54] <snap-l> Wolfger: You mean the soundbites.
[11:55] <Wolfger> which is why it's dangerous for any fringe group to ever do a tv interview.... because "the good stuff" to the network is usually "what makes you sound batshit crazy"
[11:55] <snap-l> "I... think it's OK... to vaccinate... children"
[11:56] <snap-l> Every TV program is a narrative. The editing room makes things fit that narrative.
[11:57] <rick_h_> well, yea they have to make it scary "OMG your kid might be missing stuff...and die!"
[11:57] <rick_h_> at least the part about me having the whooping cough got cut out
[11:57] <snap-l> of course.
[11:57] <snap-l> Grateful they didn't put in that you had whooping cough
[11:57] <snap-l> strategic edit. ;)
[11:58] <rick_h_> yea, but makes for a great "See, even this Dr's moronic husband can fall prey to this crap"
[11:59] <snap-l> rick_h_: Not moronic... you just happen to be a magnet for this stuff.
[12:00] <snap-l> bbl
[12:02] <brousch> hehe
[12:19] <brousch> Duolos: where are you located?
[12:19] <Duolos> Grand Rapids
[12:20] <Duolos> Not a lot of meetings out this way :-/
[12:20] <brousch> um, you're kidding right?
[12:20] <brousch> weekly linux social
[12:20] <brousch> tomorrow night
[12:20] <Duolos> I didn't see anything on the official page.
[12:20] <Duolos> Guess I didn't look hard enough :)
[12:21] <brousch> ah, no ubuntu meetings, but plenty of linux
[12:21] <Duolos> I see a lot of meetings for detroit.
[12:21] <Duolos> ahhh
[12:21] <brousch> tomorrow night 7-10 in jenison, beer if you want it
[12:22] <Duolos> Honestly, I haven't looked into it too much.  I'd love to get together with other linux users, but would feel a bit out of place since they usually seem to be developers and I'm not.
[12:22] <Duolos> Well, I'd love to, but I work 3rd shift.
[12:22] <brousch> doh
[12:22] <brousch> well sign up for the GRLUG mailing list to get announcements and such
[12:22] <Duolos> Where would I go to keep up with when those meetings are happening?
[12:22] <Duolos> Nevermind :)
[12:22] <Duolos> alright, I'll find it
[12:22] <brousch> http://grlug.org/mailman/listinfo/grlug
[12:23] <brousch> There's a big geek conference coming up this weekend, BarCampGR
[12:23] <brousch> friday evening and saturday, 30 minute talks on whatever people want to talk about
[12:23] <Duolos> Hmm... the main GRLUG page redirects to a broken link; just in case you know the admin
[12:23] <brousch> Duolos: yeah, i just saw that
[12:24] <brousch> the grlug web page is a ghetto
[12:24] <brousch> the mailing list is active though
[12:24] <Duolos> Alright.  Just signed up for it.
[12:24] <brousch> i may tackle it after i revamp the gr python page
[12:24] <Duolos> Thanks
[12:25] <Duolos> heh... I'm continually disappointed in websites for so-called "tech-savvy" people
[12:25] <brousch> well to make it purty you need a designer
[12:25] <Duolos> Yeah, I s'pose
[12:26] <brousch> so you're an admin?
[12:26] <Duolos> Noooo.  Just a desktop user.
[12:26] <Duolos> Unless you consider providing unlimited tech support for anyone that hears I "know computers" an admin
[12:26] <brousch> hah
[12:27] <brousch> that's how it starts ;)
[12:27] <Duolos> Oh, I know it.  Do it for free once and suddenly you're locked into it for life.
[12:28] <brousch> There are a ton of tech meetings in grand rapids, unfortunately most of them are from 6PM - 9PM on week days
[12:28] <brousch> http://conga-wm.org/group-list/
[12:29] <Duolos> Oh, wow.  Yeah, I didn't think there'd be that much interest.
[12:29] <Duolos> I do miss the days of BBS get together's, though, and have been itching to get back into that kind of community.
[12:32] <Duolos> Anyway, thank you for the info!
[12:33] <brousch> np
[12:33] <brousch> hope to see you at one of the meetings
[12:34] <brousch> even if you just drop by for a few minutes, stop in to say hi
[12:34] <Duolos> I'll try to plan on it whenever I get the time off.
[12:34] <Duolos> Is there like a secret handshake so I know I introduce myself to the right group of people? :)
[12:34] <brousch> hah
[12:34] <brousch> no, just find me
[12:35] <brousch> or jump in to any conversation
[12:35] <Duolos> So walk in and announce that I'm looking for Broush.  Got it :)
[12:36] <Duolos> I'll think of some way to get there soon.  I assume you're in GR too, then?
[12:36] <brousch> right
[12:37] <Duolos> alright, then.  Hopefully I'll run into you soon.
[13:09] <nullspace> rick_h_: in your woodworking ever run into a tool that required 20amps?
[13:15] <rick_h_> nullspace: sure, all the time
[13:16] <rick_h_> my table saw on startup can blow a 20amp breaker
[13:16] <rick_h_> had to go to 40
[13:17] <jrwren> snap-l: escalate issue with luanchpad??/ this is open source... you don't get to escalate.
[13:17] <jrwren> or... go buy commercial support from canonical
[13:19] <jrwren> brousch: zomg, you have 3 boys???
[13:19] <brousch> jrwren: only 1 that i know of
[13:19] <jrwren> lol, oh.
[13:20] <jrwren> oh it was rick_h_'s dr. wife on the news, not your wife with the kids.
[13:20] <jrwren> man... vaccines are a scam.
[13:21] <jrwren> vaccines don't actually do what they say. they are actually docility drugs adn infertility drugs that the aliens controlling our government urge us to take.
[13:21] <Wolfger> <roll eyes/>
[13:21] <jrwren> lol.
[13:21] <brousch> is that why the birthrate is falling and sales of Yanni's music are at an all-time high?
[13:22] <rick_h_> jrwren: you'd be suprised how often my wife hears that
[13:22] <rick_h_> nothing breaks a dr's heart like seeing a little guy with parents that refuse to get the shots
[13:22] <nullspace> woah woah woah, Yanni sales are at an all time high?
[13:22] <nullspace> rick_h_: I call it natural selection
[13:23] <jrwren> i wish my wife had the balls to refuse the shots.
[13:23] <Duolos> Hmm  I thought autism has been traced directly to vaccines.
[13:23] <jrwren> Duolos: nope, that was all lies.
[13:23] <rick_h_> Duolos: NO
[13:23] <Duolos> In fact, it has been.
[13:23] <jrwren> Duolos: no, it hasn't.
[13:23] <rick_h_> and again NO
[13:23] <Duolos> Lies?  In medical journals?
[13:23] <Duolos> lol NEVER
[13:23] <rick_h_> believe it
[13:23] <jrwren> Duolos: Jenny McCarthy is just a nutter.
[13:23] <Duolos> I... don't know anything about jenny McCarthy
[13:23] <rick_h_> unless you have a stats degree you can't believe anything in a medical journal
[13:23] <nullspace> Duolos: that's call quack science, studies take years to produce viable results
[13:23] <rick_h_> welcome to the world of "must get published to show I did work/keep job"
[13:24] <jrwren> Duolos: she was a huge proponent that vaccines cause autism. there is NO scientific evidence of this.
[13:24] <rick_h_> casusation, correlation, etc
[13:24]  * jrwren moves into serious mode.
[13:24] <Duolos> jrwren: oh dear
[13:24] <Duolos> Did I stumble into #liberalism? ;)
[13:24] <rick_h_> yea, don't perpetrate the urban myth please
[13:24] <jrwren> huh? certainly not.
[13:24] <jrwren> but again: there is no evidence.
[13:24] <nullspace> Duolos: no you stumbled in a room full of science nerds
[13:24] <rick_h_> no, you stumbled upon people that watch the news and don't actually think about what they're told
[13:24] <rick_h_> well, the oposite of that
[13:25] <Duolos> eh... can't believe much of what's on the news anymore.
[13:25] <jjesse> wow i look away from this channel and it goes all crazy :P
[13:25] <jrwren> yeah, one of whom is married to a Dr.... the other of whom is married to a phd abt human geneticist who went to med school :)
[13:25] <nullspace> jjesse: rawr!
[13:25] <Duolos> I miss the days when anchors told the news instead of interpreting it for us
[13:25] <rick_h_> then treat any medical journal article the same one
[13:25] <rick_h_> /one/way
[13:25] <Duolos> jrwren: I find that a lot of doctors and "experts" don't have a clue what they're talking about :)
[13:25] <rick_h_> it's all about how the study was done, what the actual results show,
[13:25] <jrwren> don't beleive ANYTHING on the news... if there was a new agency or a politician involves, its 99% lies.
[13:26] <jjesse> i just believe what i read on the itnernet
[13:26] <rick_h_> lol, that's perfectly safe
[13:26] <rick_h_> :P
[13:26] <brousch> i only believe jon stewart
[13:26] <Duolos> rick_h_: Right.  Like evolution.  There haven't been any studies because there CAN'T be and we can't produce results...
[13:26] <Duolos> :P
[13:26] <jrwren> Duolos: agreed 100%.  doctors are just as dumb and incompetent as any other group of people.
[13:26] <jjesse> that and what steven colbert tells me
[13:26] <rick_h_> jrwren: amen!
[13:26] <Duolos> jrwren: and biased... they'll distort anything until they're right.
[13:26] <jrwren> "there haven't been any studies" <-- is false.
[13:27] <rick_h_> working at a medical school will shatter any notions of the mightly dr
[13:27] <jrwren> evolution has been studied since Darwin
[13:27] <Duolos> jrwren: no no no.  No one has every studied evolution.  Because it happens to slowly to watch.
[13:27] <jrwren> rick_h_: yup!  or going out drinking with med students :)
[13:27] <rick_h_> Duolos: jrwren is still on vaccines
[13:27] <jrwren> i am?
[13:27] <jrwren> Duolos: i disagree.
[13:27] <nullspace> rick_h_: going to the court house adn watching a medical malpractiice suit will do the same thing
[13:27] <rick_h_> oh, figured you were :)
[13:27] <Duolos> jrwren: Just saying that taking a conclusion and then finding evidence to support it is the OPPOSITE of the scientific method.
[13:28] <Duolos> jrwren: And you're wrong :P
[13:28] <jrwren> Duolos: no one has EXPERIMENTED with evolution... but STUDYING is what we ahve been doing since darwin.
[13:28] <jrwren> to say no one has studied evolution is a very ignorant statement.
[13:28] <nullspace> ok that's enough trolling
[13:29] <Duolos> jrwren: again, ya can't study something that happens too slowly to watch.  You can study your IDEAS or BELIEFS about what is happening, that's all.
[13:29] <Duolos> But I digress
[13:29] <Duolos> :P yay linux and stuff!
[13:30] <Duolos> I just think it's funny that "scientists" will find one bone and tell us all about how early human ancestors raised their children. :P
[13:30] <rick_h_> yay for hyperbole!
[13:30] <brousch> what about viruses? they evolve all the time
[13:30] <jrwren> Duolos: you are wrong.
[13:30] <jrwren> Duolos: you can study ANYTHING.
[13:30] <Duolos> brousch: from one form to another, not one species to another
[13:31] <Duolos> jrwren: I guess that all just comes down to how you define "study."  Maybe I'm using the wrong word for it, true.
[13:31] <jrwren> you seem to be.
[13:31] <jrwren> lab mice have evolved to their own species.
[13:31] <Wolfger> being unable to observe evolution != being unable to study it
[13:32] <Wolfger> jrwren: ??? citation?
[13:32] <Duolos> jrwren: yeah... I didn't know there was a species known as "lab mouse"
[13:33] <jrwren> http://www.nus.edu.sg/iacuc/files/The%20Laboratory%20Mouse.pdf
[13:34] <Duolos> jrwren: on which page does it describe how it evolved from a different species?
[13:34] <Duolos> It's a little too long for a quick read through
[13:34] <jrwren> tl dr
[13:34] <Duolos> Oh, wait.  First sentence says it was "derived from the common house mouse."  So... it was still a mouse before.  Got it.
[13:35] <Wolfger> grr. Something in the work firewall is mucking with that PDF. I'll have to read it later
[13:35] <Wolfger> Duolos: that's how evolution works
[13:35] <Duolos> That was selective breeding and adaptation, not evolution.
[13:35] <Wolfger> you don't get mice from snails...
[13:35] <jrwren> now you are redefining evolution.
[13:35] <Duolos> No... actually, I wasn't defining evolution at all
[13:36] <brousch> new species don't just pop out of nothing they evolve, change from another species
[13:36] <jrwren> you are eliminating selective breeding adn adaptation from its definition.
[13:36] <Duolos> I was pointing out that the article you posted talks about selective breeding and adaptation, not evolution.
[13:36] <jrwren> those two things are inherent in evolution
[13:36] <jrwren> throw in some mutation and there isn't much left to evolution
[13:36] <Duolos> Except that "selective" suggests a "selector" of which evolution has none (by definition)
[13:37] <brousch> the ecosystem is the selector
[13:37] <Duolos> oh wait. natural selection.  right.
[13:37] <snap-l> And good morning again.
[13:37] <Wolfger> Evolution: (Biology) change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.
[13:37] <Duolos> haha
[13:37] <brousch> the conditions in the environment
[13:38] <Duolos> Wolfger: I get that.  I was referring to "macroevolution," everything from nothing.
[13:38] <Wolfger> conservation of mass... you can't get anything from nothing :-)
[13:38] <brousch> it's just evolution over a long time scale
[13:38] <Duolos> Wolfger: exactly.
[13:38] <Wolfger> nobody's every said that you do
[13:38] <Duolos> But everything must have a beginning.
[13:39] <Duolos> Wolfger: nobody's EVER said that?
[13:39] <brousch> what's your beginning?
[13:39] <Wolfger> everything must have a beginning? How do you figure that?
[13:39] <Duolos> haha
[13:39] <Duolos> Wolfger: physics
[13:39] <brousch> in fact, everything is always changing
[13:39] <Duolos> Energy, for example, can never be created or destroyed.
[13:40] <Duolos> Same with mass.
[13:40] <Duolos> err matter
[13:40] <brousch> sure it can, its created in chemical and nuclear reactions
[13:40] <snap-l> Please define energy
[13:40] <rick_h_> lol
[13:40] <Wolfger> I see no proof for the statement that "everything must have a beginning", and you seem to be grabbing things out of thin air to argue against....
[13:40] <Duolos> snap-l: uhm... lemme google it for you lol
[13:40] <rick_h_> careful, I see snapl getting jodee involved here in a sec
[13:41] <Duolos> snap-l: The strength and vitality required for sustained physical or mental activity.
[13:41] <snap-l> Oh yes, yes it will happen
[13:41] <snap-l> No, it's the ability for something to do work
[13:41] <Duolos> brousch: the energy isn't created in those instances... it just changes forms.
[13:41] <rick_h_> Duolos: man, you cause a lot of commotion for your first day lol
[13:42] <Duolos> snap-l: Email Google and tell them they lied ;)
[13:42] <Duolos> rick_h_: I walked in on a controversial topic and boom, I'm in :P
[13:42] <snap-l> I think you're looking at the Merriam Webster definition
[13:42] <snap-l> which isn't correct for a physics debate. :)
[13:42] <Duolos> snap-l: okay, email them then
[13:42] <Duolos> Oh good grief, I just googled for a quick definition because you didn't know what "energy" meant lol if you already knew, don't ask
[13:42] <rick_h_> oh geeze
[13:43] <brousch> the big bang is the current leading theory for the beginning of everything. 13 billion years is a long time. long enough to go from an explosion to people
[13:43] <snap-l> Well, I wanted everyone to be clear on the term Energy before using it
[13:43] <Duolos> brousch: but still, something must have existed in order for it to explode.  so that still isn't the beginning... unless all the matter just always...was.
[13:43] <snap-l> physicists get very irritated when people use energy as a synonym for other things.
[13:44] <snap-l> ie: quantum energy
[13:44] <brousch> Duolos: there are some things that scientists do not have an answer for yet. that's what makes it so interesting
[13:44] <Duolos> snap-l: I was using energy more along the lines of Newton's laws
[13:44] <snap-l> Duolos: You might want to update your understanding of physics, then. :)
[13:44] <Duolos> An object in motion, an object at rest, etc.  Stuff I can't forget from junior high :)
[13:45] <snap-l> Quantum / Relativity are fun. :)
[13:45] <Duolos> snap-l: oh, you mean the physical laws of the universe have changed in the past 15 years?  Or our understanding of them?
[13:45] <Wolfger> heh. Appropos for the current mood of the channel: http://shirt.woot.com/shirts/shirts/university-wikipedius
[13:45] <Duolos> Yeah... not gonna put all my faith and belief in some "smart guys" that change their minds every year :P
[13:46] <brousch> who else is there?
[13:46] <snap-l> Please read up on General Relativity and Quantum prior to engaging in debates on Evolution.
[13:46] <rick_h_> Wolfger: lmao
[13:46] <Duolos> Wolfger: seems unavailable to me.
[13:46] <Wolfger> Duolos: you'd rather put your faith in dumb guys who never acknowledge new information?
[13:46] <snap-l> Newtonian physics is good as a broad brush for everyday activities, but it doesn't explain the cosmos, nor atomic phenomenon
[13:46] <Duolos> Wolfger: New information that will be wrong the next time a science article is published?
[13:47] <Wolfger> ok, that link appears to not exist yet. Until the end of the day: http://shirt.woot.com/
[13:47] <brousch> that's how you build a correct model, by looking at the evidence as it comes in and debating what it means
[13:47] <Wolfger> Duolos: you fail to grasp how science works
[13:47] <brousch> and having the flexibility of though and belief to admit you were wrong
[13:47] <Duolos> I'm not claiming to have all the answers at all, but I also don't want to say "evolution is an indisputable fact" when there's so little evidence to support it (and that evidence changes constantly)
[13:48] <snap-l> Duolos: I think you need to understand what evidence and proof mean. :)
[13:48] <snap-l> Evidence is not "shit that some guy made up"
[13:48] <Duolos> brousch: Right, I get that.  The problem with most evolutionist scientists is that they interpret evidence against their conclusions, not the other way around.  They'll never change their conclusion regardless of what evidence shows.
[13:48] <snap-l> Proof is not "conjecture some guy threw out there"
[13:49] <snap-l> Evidence is observation with careful study, and repeatable results
[13:49] <Duolos> So they change how they view the evidence.
[13:49] <snap-l> No, they understand the evidence more with repeatable results
[13:49] <Duolos> snap-l: I know what real science is and how the scientific method should be employed.  However, in the field of evolutionary science, they don't follow that method.
[13:49] <snap-l> If I give you a phone, having never seen a phone before, and it rings, you'd tell me a phone is a device that makes sound
[13:50] <nullspace> rick_h_: what kinda table saw do you have?
[13:50] <snap-l> But, if I give someone else a phone, and they hit the button to pick up the call when it rings, they would say that it is a communication device
[13:50] <Duolos> snap-l: Right... and if I hand you a bone, you'll tell me the original owner's daughter listened to Coldplay.
[13:50] <snap-l> Duolos: Where do you find fault with Evolutionary science?
[13:50] <brousch> you can tell a lot from a bone
[13:51] <rick_h_> nullspace: cheap delta 10"
[13:51] <Duolos> brousch: Oh, I'm sure you can.  But that's not an exaggeration of some of the crap I've read in scientific journals lol
[13:51] <brousch> sometimes what the animal ate, how old it was, where it lived
[13:51] <rick_h_> when I run it on 110 it pushed the 20a breaker
[13:51] <Duolos> brousch: ...what it was thinking when it died?
[13:51] <rick_h_> should be better on 220, but I haven't run any of that to the garage yet
[13:51] <brousch> no
[13:51] <Duolos> You can guess; you can't know.
[13:52] <snap-l> Duolos: No, that's Psychics, not Physics. And Psychics is crap. ;)
[13:52] <brousch> it's all educated guesses
[13:52] <Duolos> snap-l: I have an issue with the way that most scientists go about interpreting the things they see.
[13:52] <snap-l> Duolos: Example, please?
[13:52] <brousch> well when you spend your life looking at the same sorts of things, you can get a pretty good idea of how a new one fits in
[13:53] <brousch> there are car guys that can see the edge of a bumper on a car and know what make, model, and year it is
[13:53] <Duolos> snap-l: Well, for example, and if you need the source it will take me a while to find it (read it several months ago)... scientists found a part of a hand bone and said that it indicated that early humans "may" have been more loving parents than originally thought
[13:54] <Duolos> Their reasoning?  They found other bones nearby that were from a child, apparently.
[13:54] <brousch> that sounds silly on the surface. did you read the whole article?
[13:54] <Duolos> There's also an entire field devoted to "evolutionary psychology"
[13:54] <Duolos> brousch: yeah, I did
[13:54] <Duolos> brousch: they used the words "may," "could," and "might" a lot :)
[13:55] <brousch> also is it really fair to throw out all of evolution because one scientist is extrapolating too much?
[13:55] <Duolos> brousch: He asked for AN example, not all of them
[13:56] <Duolos> How about the recent discovery that some species of frogs are growing teeth again.  Just like their ancient ancestors before evolution chose the teeth for removal?
[13:56] <snap-l> Duolos: Have you heard of archaeology?
[13:56] <Duolos> Sorry, I don't remember the name of the evolutionary law, but it basically states that once genetic information has been removed, it can not be added back.
[13:56] <Wolfger> that's silly
[13:56] <Duolos> These frogs are a direct contradiction of that law and the scientists called the frogs "the exception."
[13:57] <snap-l> Duolos: Please give us the source. Right now you're just spouting conjecture.
[13:57] <Wolfger> agreed
[13:57] <Duolos> snap-l: Right now, you ASSUME I'm just spouting conjecture.
[13:57] <Duolos> Give me a moment, I'll find the source for the frogs.
[13:57] <snap-l> And you assume I'm not a tomato with conciousness
[13:58] <jrwren> now I'm agreeing with Duolos
[13:58] <brousch> so i "believe" in evolution because i think it's the current best explanation for what we see today. it hasn't explained everything, but it explains more than any other theory. when something more comprehensive comes along, i'll gladly "believe" it
[13:58] <Duolos> snap-l: Is National Geographic a credible source in your eyes?
[13:58] <snap-l> It'll do in a pinch
[13:58] <Duolos> I need to ask before sourcing them because I know how people think when something challenges their beliefs lol
[13:58] <Duolos> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/02/110209-frogs-teeth-evolution-science/
[13:58] <jrwren> evolution is bullshit. anunaki has been influencing our planet for mililions of years.
[13:58] <jrwren> terraforming it.
[13:58] <jrwren> not only did anunaki create man, but anunaki created EARTH!
[13:59] <brousch> oh man, nationalgeographic set off my murdoch block
[13:59] <Duolos> hahaha
[13:59] <Duolos> how about the BBC?  They reported on it too
[13:59] <Duolos> http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9365000/9365076.stm
[14:00] <jrwren> just because you don't believe in a fact, doesn't mean that fact isn't still true.
[14:00] <snap-l> Duolos: So, your point is that they found a "loophole" in what was previously considered a law?
[14:00] <Duolos> Anyway, there are two examples
[14:00] <Duolos> jrwren: wait, which "fact" do I not believe in?
[14:00] <jrwren> evolution doesn't need you to believe in it.
[14:00] <snap-l> Duolos: Congratulations, you're watching science in progress.
[14:00] <jrwren> Duolos: that wasn't directed at you :)
[14:01] <Duolos> jrwren: oh, sorry.  Figured I was ganged up on :)
[14:01] <jrwren> Duolos: but the fact I'm thinking of... was... my lord adn savior, the prince of light. :p
[14:01] <snap-l> Duolos: remember when they found the duckbilled platypus?
[14:01] <jrwren> of course not.. he is too young for that.
[14:01] <Duolos> snap-l: That's my point, though.  You can't trust anything they claim is fact because in a year or two, it won't be.
[14:01] <jrwren> snap-l the old man :)
[14:01] <snap-l> Previously unassailable laws that mammals don't have feathers were put to the test.
[14:01] <Duolos> And yes, plenty of evolutionists claim it is irrefutable fact.
[14:02] <snap-l> Duolos: I think you're mildly mistaken
[14:02] <Duolos> snap-l: on?
[14:02] <brousch> anyone who thinks they understand all of evolution is a fool
[14:02] <brousch> ignore them and find smarter people
[14:02] <snap-l> evolutionists can't be painted with such broad strokes much in the same way that Christianity can't be painted with broad strokes.
[14:02] <Duolos> brousch: I don't know.  Richard Dawkins is a very smart guy...
[14:02] <Wolfger> I cannot recall hearing any evolutionist saying that anything is irrefutable fact.
[14:03] <jrwren> zomg.
[14:03] <Duolos> Wolfger: Dawkins.  Hawking.
[14:03] <jrwren> i hate richard dawkins.
[14:03] <ColonelPanic001> and that's an irrefutable fact.
[14:03] <jrwren> he is a fucking asshole. world would be better off without him.
[14:03] <jrwren> i'm glad southpark tore him a new one.
[14:03] <Duolos> some Chris guy... can't remember his last name.  Hitchenson, maybe?
[14:03] <Wolfger> Duolos: ok, you're on. Show me where they said it.
[14:03] <snap-l> So Dawkins is the spokesperson for Evoution, then?
[14:04] <Duolos> oh good grief
[14:04] <snap-l> I'm serious
[14:04] <Duolos> this is why it's impossible to debate liberals lol
[14:04] <Wolfger> omg, the subtitle of your article is "Mysterious re-evolution challenges evolutionary theory, scientists say."
[14:04] <jrwren> well, yes... I think dawkins is a self-claiming spokes person for evolution.
[14:04] <Wolfger> THEORY
[14:04] <snap-l> That's like saying that Jimmy Swaggart is the spokesperson for Christianity.
[14:04] <Wolfger> not fact
[14:04] <Duolos> Did I say he was the spokesperson? Nope.  Did I say that the frog story was absolute proof against evolution?  Nope.
[14:04] <snap-l> Duolos: WE'll debate anytime you're ready. :)
[14:04] <jrwren> wtf does liberals have to do with anything? I have a very conservative view of science.
[14:04] <Duolos> But you'll just twist everything I say
[14:05] <snap-l> I'm not twisting it, I'm saying that you're cherrypicking.
[14:05] <Duolos> snap-l: You're officially out lol
[14:05] <jrwren> Wolfger: theories can be facts.  see the theory of gravity.

[14:05]  * ColonelPanic001 is a supporter of Intelligent Falling.
[14:05] <ColonelPanic001> Dawkins is an arrogant prick, but so am I, so I don't mind.
[14:05] <Duolos> jrwren: Gravity isn't a fact.  We don't know there isn't SOMEWHERE that gravity isn't present :P
[14:06] <snap-l> Duolos: Would it make you happier if someone said that Evolution is a body of scientific work in progress?
[14:06] <Wolfger> jrwren: it's a "theory" because we don't understand exactly how it works
[14:06] <snap-l> and that it's the prevailing scientific thought?
[14:07] <jrwren> Duolos: zomg, that is the dumbest thign I've ever read.
[14:07] <ColonelPanic001> nah, I've said dumber, I'm sure.
[14:07] <Duolos> jrwren: uhm... you should read more?
[14:07] <Wolfger> I love the way Duolos points to an article showing that a species has evolved in an unexpected way as an argument against believing in evolution....
[14:07] <jrwren> Duolos: truth.
[14:08] <snap-l> Wolfger: Well, you know, once you poke a hole in science, it flutters around the room expelling everything until it's just a limp shard of it's former self
[14:08] <jrwren> imma throw you off a 20 story building... then we'll see if you think gravity is fact... or if you think at all.. MUHUWHAHAHAHAH   j/k of course.
[14:08] <Duolos> Wolfger: bloody hell, man.  I was asked to show an article that is just one example of why I don't TRUST evolution or scientists.
[14:08] <snap-l> then we can have our hovercars
[14:08] <ColonelPanic001> you don't poke a hole in science by finding something unexpected, that *is* science.
[14:08] <jrwren> ColonelPanic001: tada! you with the right prize.
[14:08] <Duolos> wait
[14:09] <Duolos> why I don't trust everything scientists tell me is true.
[14:09]  * ColonelPanic001 wins. We can all go home now
[14:09] <ColonelPanic001> nothing wrong with that
[14:09] <ColonelPanic001> you shouldn't
[14:09] <jrwren> i'm going home right now.
[14:09] <Duolos> Have to clarify or suddenly I'll be pegged as believing the earth is flat
[14:09] <snap-l> Duolos: Science is a process.
[14:09] <jrwren> sick kid at shcool :(
[14:09] <ColonelPanic001> that's also science
[14:09] <Duolos> ...which it kind of is in Iowa
[14:09] <snap-l> It's not a belief system.
[14:09] <ColonelPanic001> the heart of science is saying "wtf you're full of crap, let me prove it"
[14:09] <snap-l> It's like believing assembly lines.
[14:09] <jrwren> evolution is an ever changing science. not a belief system.
[14:10] <jrwren> i believe in yesterday.
[14:10] <snap-l> I believe in nexterday.
[14:10] <Duolos> jrwren: science, however, isn't supposed to "change."  It's supposed to be based on unchanging, and observable facts.
[14:10] <Duolos> ...at least that's the science I grew up with.
[14:10] <ColonelPanic001> pft
[14:10] <ColonelPanic001> science always changes
[14:10] <ColonelPanic001> otherwise we'd still be trying alchemy
[14:10] <Wolfger> Duolos: so this new evidence (no facts have "changed" as you like to say) refutes a hypothesis proposed in 1893. And you now distrust science because some dude was wrong over 100 years ago?
[14:10] <Duolos> NOW, however, it HAS to change to fit in with certain worldviews.
[14:10] <snap-l> Duolos: Science is changing
[14:11] <brousch> Duolos: then you had bad science teachers
[14:11] <ColonelPanic001> no kidding
[14:11] <snap-l> We used to believe that Mercury was safe. That was proven false
[14:11] <Duolos> brousch: Actually, I did.  She got fired for getting students drunk and sleeping with them.
[14:11] <Duolos> BUT... that's another story
[14:11] <ColonelPanic001> haha
[14:11] <jrwren> Duolos: you are wrong again. where did you get this crazy notion?
[14:12] <ColonelPanic001> hell, all the major names in history of science are there because they changed our worldview - showed that we were wrong or just added to it
[14:12] <jrwren> Duolos: science is a process. its use of the scientific method.  that doesn't change... the results from using the method IS SUPPOSED TO CHANGE.
[14:12] <Duolos> Anyway, it's been fun.  Can't wait to meet you all over a beer :P
[14:12] <jrwren> Duolos: you grew up with some fucked up science.
[14:12] <snap-l> Duolos: Take it easy. :)
[14:12] <Duolos> jrwren: And again... evolution changes the evidence to match the conclusion.
[14:12] <Duolos> But... another time; I've got to run
[14:12] <ColonelPanic001> I don't believe in beer. I'm faithful to Intelligent Inebriation.
[14:12] <snap-l> Duolos: Looking forward to meeting you. :)
[14:12] <jrwren> i'm not.
[14:13] <brousch> They may teach you the current scientific best guess about something, but they should not tell you that it is absolutely correct and will always be correct. i think a failing of many scientists and teachers is to not emphasize that
[14:13] <snap-l> Duolos: I was active in the GR BBS scene long ago
[14:13] <ColonelPanic001> YOU'RE ALL TOO LATE
[14:13] <Duolos> jrwren: I'll sit on the opposite end of the table from you :)
[14:13] <Duolos> snap-l: As was I...
[14:13] <snap-l> between 1989-1993
[14:13] <Duolos> Yeah, early to mid 90s myself.
[14:13]  * ColonelPanic001 scrolls back to see how this stuff all started
[14:13] <brousch> of course the problem with telling people it's your best guess is that they have much less confidence in what you say
[14:14] <snap-l> went by Permanent Waves back when. ;)
[14:14] <Duolos> ColonelPanic001: Started when I got here and saw the word "vaccine" :P
[14:14] <jrwren> Duolos: I've got some good reading for you between now and then: www.timecube.com
[14:14] <snap-l> jrwren: JHC, God, no. :)
[14:14] <ColonelPanic001> vaccines are a government conspiracy to implant us with tracking devices so we can be herded to Katy Perry concerts (the government is working for the RIAA)
[14:14] <snap-l> ColonelPanic001: Truth
[14:15] <Duolos> ColonelPanic001: Doesn't surprise me.  I knew Katy Perry was just a pawn.
[14:15] <Duolos> Anyway, off I go.  Tranquility may resume :) seeya
[14:16] <snap-l> brousch: And this is why I can never return to West MI. ;)
[14:16] <brousch> but you went to hope!
[14:17] <snap-l> Oh, I'll visit, but man, living there would make my forehead veins pop. :)
[14:18] <snap-l> Not to mention JoDee is about to explode. :)
[14:23] <Wolfger> "you guys haven't said anything I can argue with, so I'll draw things up out of thin air that I can argue against, and oh btw I can't find my source on that right now"
[14:23] <snap-l> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollo%27s_Law_of_Irreversibility
[14:23] <snap-l> I should have pointed this out sooner.
[14:23] <snap-l> "Dollo's law of irreversibility (also known as Dollo's law and Dollo's principle) is a hypothesis proposed in 1893[1] by French-born Belgian paleontologist Louis Dollo which states that evolution is not reversible."
[14:24] <Wolfger> I also love the way he leapt to the conclusion we were all liberals because we believe in science...
[14:24] <snap-l> Damn scientists for using the word "law" for "hypothesis"
[14:24] <snap-l> Wolfger: Well, aren't we?
[14:24] <Wolfger> snap-l: I did point that out earlier (paraphrased)
[14:24] <snap-l> I know my Birkenstocks are just itching to be used.
[14:25] <brousch> snap-l: we're getting better very slowly
[14:25]  * snap-l notes that if anyone thinks for a second that I own any Birkenstocks, I'll go buy a pair to beat them to a bloody pulp, and then shove them into their orifices.
[14:26] <brousch> yeah right. you keep them right next to your Apple keyboard
[14:26] <snap-l> brousch: Oh, I'm sure, but it's definitely not prevalent.
[14:26] <snap-l> I fear he may be one of the more calm ones. ;)
[14:26] <snap-l> I've dealt with Young Republicans. ;)
[14:26] <brousch> yes, he argued for a long time
[14:27] <snap-l> and we both parted thinking the other side was crazy.
[14:27] <snap-l> That's not terribly productive. ;)
[14:27] <brousch> hopefully some of the insight got through to him, like science is not a static set of immutable laws, it's a process
[14:28] <snap-l> Also, that anti-vaccine paper he was referring was so thoroughly discredited, I'm surprised it didn't ignite.
[14:28] <jrwren> you realize "liberals" is just a code word for "non-born again christian jesus camp lovers"
[14:29] <snap-l> jrwren: I thought it was code for "godless anarchists who want to take away our guns".
[14:29] <snap-l> (No offense to the godless anarchists who want to take away our guns)
[14:30] <brousch> some day i'll actually start Sunday Science so we have some place to go and socialize like the churchies
[14:30] <jrwren> wait, gun control is in this too?
[14:31] <snap-l> Also, Dawkins is smart, but he's not the spokesperson for athieism or evolutionary theory.
[14:31] <jrwren> I'm all for using two hands, but any other gun control will not be tollerated
[14:31] <Wolfger> snap-l: I don't want to take away your guns
[14:31] <jrwren> i want to give everyone a gun.
[14:31] <ColonelPanic001> I do. I don't have enough of my own
[14:31] <Wolfger> jrwren++
[14:31] <jrwren> ColonelPanic001++
[14:31] <jrwren> i could use more guns.
[14:31] <snap-l> jrwren: I think everyone should be given a box of rubberbands
[14:31]  * ColonelPanic001 has no guns, probably never will, doesn't mind responsible reasonable gun owners
[14:32] <brousch> ColonelPanic001++
[14:32] <snap-l> I got to shoot guns on an outing at Chrysler.
[14:32] <snap-l> Have no problem with folks being responsible gun owners
[14:32] <Wolfger> I think guns should be taken away from people who can't pass simple science exams.
[14:32] <ColonelPanic001> I do have a bat'leth, though...
[14:33] <snap-l> funny thing is all of the years of playing gun-based video games made the real thing much easier to aim and hit targets.
[14:33] <brousch> i have a Jo
[14:33] <jrwren> rofl... i'm glad YOU didn't write teh second ammendment :)
[14:35] <brousch> well it was written at a different time. pretty much everyone already had a gun for hunting and protecting themselves
[14:35] <brousch> each family anyways
[14:36] <ColonelPanic001> it's like it's debate day in here
[14:36] <ColonelPanic001> Hey guys, how do you all like seat belts?
[14:36] <brousch> i love them
[14:37] <brousch> everyone should wear one all the time
[14:37] <ColonelPanic001> I wear one while at my desk at work.
[14:37] <snap-l> Next up: How science plans to take our guns and replace them with social programs.
[14:37] <brousch> good man
[14:37] <ColonelPanic001> science plans to take our guns and replace them with awesome rayguns
[14:37] <jrwren> not just hunting and protecting themselves... dueling too. :)
[14:38] <snap-l> Yes, duelling, the favored passtime of presidents, and noblemen everywhere.
[14:38] <Wolfger> ColonelPanic001: seat belts are a good thing, and I'm happy they exist.
[14:38] <snap-l> Wonder if it's still legal in some parts of the country to duel
[14:39] <Wolfger> just don't ask me how I feel about fascist seat belt laws requiring people use them.
[14:39] <ColonelPanic001> Everyone knows the Nazis gained power through required seat belt laws.
[14:39] <brousch> but if you don't buckle up i could be killed by your body flying through my window
[14:40] <Wolfger> if you do buckle up, I may die due to the slight increase to the mass of the collision
[14:40] <Wolfger> I think either is equally likely
[14:41] <ColonelPanic001> lol i might drown in a lake
[14:41] <Wolfger> and see, we're still discussing evolution...
[14:42] <ColonelPanic001> not using a seat belt does qualify as natural selection
[14:42] <snap-l> States and territories which have statutory prohibitions on duelling for all citizens are Colorado,[49] District of Columbia,[50] Idaho,[51] Kentucky,[52] Massachusetts,[53] Michigan,[54] Mississippi,[55] Nevada,[56] New Mexico,[57] New York,[58] North Dakota,[59] Oklahoma,[60] Puerto Rico,[61] Rhode Island[62] and Utah.[63] California previously prohibited duelling, but this was repealed in 1994.[64]
[14:42] <Wolfger> seat belt laws fight against evolution, by keeping bad genes in the pool
[14:42] <snap-l> So, one more reason not to move to California
[14:42] <Wolfger> one more reason to move to California!
[14:42] <ColonelPanic001> heh
[14:42] <snap-l> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel
[14:42] <brousch> you probably have to file paperwork beforehand
[14:43] <snap-l> In San Francisco, you need a permit
[14:43] <Wolfger> I'm curious what happened in 1994 to precipitate the repealing of that law...
[14:43] <snap-l> followed by several town meetings, and a visit from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
[14:45] <snap-l> Having a hard time finding chapter / verse for the repeal
[14:47] <jrwren> seat belt laws and flouride in the water!
[14:47] <jrwren> i'm surprised more gangsta's ain't into duelling in CA.  south central duel!
[14:54] <Wolfger> what, a fight on fair terms? That's crazy talk.
[14:54] <Wolfger> they all want to do drive-bys and surprise shootings
[14:54] <snap-l> Duolos: wb. :)
[14:54] <Duolos> ty
[14:54] <Duolos> Can we just talk about linuxy things now?  I'm having a beer lol
[14:55] <Wolfger> mmm... beer. I'm jealous
[14:55] <snap-l> Me too
[14:56] <snap-l> So, how about that Oneiric.
[14:56] <jrwren> what kind of beer?
[14:56] <Duolos> Hmm... trying to install a .deb but it's telling me I can't because it's 32-bit (I'm on Kubuntu 11.04 64-bit).  Any way around that?
[14:56] <Duolos> jrwren: Miller Lite.  Cheap, tastes decent and gets the job done
[14:56] <brousch> oh, you're a kde user?
[14:57] <brousch> round 2!
[14:57] <Duolos> brousch: Hey, nobody's perfect.
[14:57] <brousch> j/k
[14:57] <Duolos> I've always used gnome... just figured I'd try something new.
[14:57] <Duolos> :)
[14:57] <Duolos> Freedom FTW
[14:59] <brousch> Duolos: you can try --force-architecture
[14:59] <brousch> sudo dpkg -i --force-architecture your.deb
[14:59] <Duolos> brousch: safe enough, I assume?
[15:00] <brousch> i have no idea
[15:00] <brousch> it worked for me on one program. that's all i know
[15:00] <Duolos> well, if it goes pop! I'll know
[15:01] <Duolos> Eh, no POP, but it did say no.
[15:02] <Duolos> Thanks for the suggestion, though.
[15:04] <brousch> did you install ia32?
[15:04] <brousch> ia-32libs
[15:05] <Duolos> brousch: of course no.  I assume I should?
[15:05] <brousch> yeah
[15:05] <brousch> then try to install it regular, and --force-architecture if that still fails
[15:05] <Duolos> hmm... not seeing it in the repos
[15:05] <Wolfger> jrwren: why do you need to start another fight? ;-)
[15:06] <jrwren> ME???
[15:06] <jrwren> I was just curious.
[15:06] <Wolfger> LOL
[15:06] <jrwren> I could go for a miller lite
[15:06] <Wolfger> I'd drink anything right about now...
[15:06] <snap-l> I need to get rid of the Arcadia Ales IPAs in my fridge.
[15:07] <snap-l> MAybe do beer burgers or something
[15:07] <Duolos> I have learned that no matter what beer I'm drinking, the asker will disapprove.  Friggin' hipsters lol
[15:07] <brousch> Duolos: hm, it should be in there https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/amd64/ia32-libs
[15:07] <Wolfger> snap-l: you on the Ocelot? What kernel is that running? I'm curious about the 3.1
[15:07] <brousch> snap-l: i like beer brats
[15:07] <snap-l> I'm not on it yet. Going to do a live disc to see how well it handles before committing.
[15:07] <Duolos> brousch: ah.   You said ia-32libs.  I searched for all kinds of variants ;)
[15:07] <snap-l> Wolfger: ^^
[15:07] <snap-l> brousch: Oh, that gives me an idea.
[15:08] <Duolos> brousch: but, it's already installed.
[15:08] <brousch> well then i'm stuck
[15:09] <brousch> what are you trying to install?
[15:09] <Duolos> Amazon's stupid MP3 downloader.  Can't download my music from the cloud player without it.
[15:09] <Duolos> But, they don't offer a 64-bit version, apparentlyu.
[15:09] <Wolfger> Duolos: clamz
[15:09] <jrwren> snap-l: i'll trade you arcadia ales IPA's for an Amiga 1000 :)
[15:10] <Wolfger> not sure if it works now with the cloud drive... haven't tried it since that came out
[15:10] <Duolos> Wolfger: And that works for their cloud player?
[15:10] <snap-l> jrwren: Sure. Come on over.
[15:10] <Duolos> ah
[15:10] <snap-l> They're in the fridge.
[15:10] <Duolos> Worth a shot, I guess.  Thanks.
[15:11] <snap-l> Duolos: You can also use Banshee to download Amazon music purchases
[15:11]  * Wolfger makes a note to try clamz out tonight
[15:11] <snap-l> though I haven't tried with the cloud player.
[15:11] <Duolos> snap-l: right, but they're not all purchases.  I think cloud player is probably a little too new for 3rd party support yet.
[15:11] <Duolos> Only a month or two, I think.
[15:11] <snap-l> Duolos: I'd put my money on Banshee or Amarok getting cloud drive support sooner than the others.
[15:15] <Duolos> hmm... and as it's been ages since I've used linux, could someone please tell me how to increase the volume?  It's at 100% but a LOT quiter than my laptop has been capable of in the past.
[15:16] <snap-l> Duolos: There's several volume controls
[15:16] <snap-l> Main, and each application has a volume control
[15:17] <Duolos> snap-l: right, but my main and application are at max.
[15:17] <Duolos> Thought there'd be a way to increase the max volume
[15:18] <snap-l> What laptop? and are you on KDE?
[15:19] <Duolos> I have an HP G62-340US on KDE
[15:19] <Duolos> The volume on this laptop was never the best, but better than it is at the moment.
[15:19] <Duolos> ...with Altec Lansing speakers, you'd think they'd sound a little better
[15:19] <Duolos> Maybe I should get Bose instead ;)
[15:20] <snap-l> I <3 my JBLs (which are by the same company as Altec Lansing)
[15:21] <Duolos> Honestly, I'm shocked at how quiet it is.  I honestly can't make out the words in the music if I sit back lol
[15:21] <snap-l> Duolos: Did you check the connection? Might noy be plugged in all the way.
[15:21] <Duolos> snap-l: built-in speakers
[15:21] <Duolos> So no, I didn't check the connections
[15:21] <Duolos> :P
[15:23] <snap-l> Duolos: Oh, thought it might have been external speakers.
[15:24] <Wolfger> kmixer?
[15:25] <Wolfger> (or is it just kmix? I can't recall)
[15:33] <Duolos> yeah... can't launch it.  No output in konsole either.
[15:33] <Duolos> Linux rears it's ugly head again lol
[15:33] <brousch> i blame kde
[15:34] <brousch> blue-headed step-child
[15:34] <Duolos> nah... always had issues with stuff just "not working" in gnome too
[15:34] <Duolos> Surely an operator's error, I know.  But still.
[15:34] <Duolos> I don't ALWAYS have time to diagnose and fix stuff :)
[15:35] <brousch> there's always something broken or sub-optimal. that's the fun of it
[15:35]  * Wolfger fights the urge to say the speakers just haven't evolved yet...
[15:36] <Wolfger> XD
[15:36] <ColonelPanic001> :P
[15:36] <Duolos> Wolfger lost that fight.
[15:36] <Duolos> Survival of the fittest claims another intellectual victim :)
[15:40] <Wolfger> I like the way we use words to alter perceptions....
[15:40] <Wolfger> article on the BART protests says the police are is "response gear". Looks like what has always been called "riot gear" to me....
[15:40] <Wolfger> s/is/in/
[15:41] <Duolos> They're not murderous aliens, they're the Civil Defense team :)
[15:41] <jrwren> its why i still run win7 :)
[15:42] <ColonelPanic001> jrwren runs windows 7 because police wear response gear and not riot gear
[15:43] <Duolos> Isn't Microsoft up to their 9th iteration of Windows anyway?
[15:44] <ColonelPanic001> they'll get it right eventually
[15:44] <Duolos> 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 95, NT, 98, ME, 2000, XP, Vista, 7... wait, that's 11
[15:44] <Duolos> To their credit, XP and 7 are both excellent operating systems.
[15:44] <Wolfger> uh????
[15:44] <Duolos> Wolfger: I like Miller Lite...get off me.
[15:44] <Wolfger> 7 is, xp most certainly is not
[15:44] <ColonelPanic001> hah
[15:45] <Duolos> Wolfger: Okay, not IS, but WAS
[15:45] <Wolfger> must be the Miller talking
[15:45] <jrwren> windows 7 is numbered based on NT releases, not the Windows 1,2,3,95... versions
[15:46] <Wolfger> Windows has had 4 versions: Sucks, sucks less, sucks again, and finally-we-got-it-right
[15:46] <Duolos> jrwren: ahhhh gotcha.  I never cared enough to research it.  Just figured this is NOT the 7th major version of Windows.
[15:46] <Wolfger> xp being "sucks less"
[15:47] <Duolos> Wolfger: Any operating system that ships with a puke green interface theme is awesome in my book!
[15:47] <jrwren> XP was interesting.   no firewall in its release.. then a service pack with firewall, then a service pack with firewall on by default.
[15:47] <Duolos> Personally, I miss GEOS :)
[15:48] <Duolos> Can't believe the company actually still SELLS it...
[15:48] <Duolos> Wait... should MS Bob be considered in the list of Microsoft OS's?
[15:49] <Duolos> If so, Wolfger needs to add a WTF to his list.
[15:50] <jrwren> i only ever used GEOS on a C64+4
[15:50] <jrwren> I want to install Packard Bell Navigator as my shell
[15:50] <Duolos> jrwren: ah.  I ran it in MS-DOS 3... my first exposure to AOL 1.0 :)
[15:53] <Duolos> By the way... the volume issue... alsamixer fixed it.  My master was at 40
[15:53] <brousch> Duolos: now you need to blog it so others can find your solution
[15:55] <Duolos> brousch: nevermind.  running alsamixer may have increased the volume, but it made my laptop's physical volume controls completely non-responsive.
[15:57] <Duolos> So in order to change the volume, I need to run alsamixer every time.  Ugh... so much more complicated than necessary lol
[16:01] <Wolfger> Duolos: I think Bob is a myth invented just to make MS look worse than it already did.
[16:03] <jrwren> you never saw bob?
[16:04] <Duolos> Bob was such a happy fella!
[16:05] <Duolos> I miss his puppy.
[16:07] <snap-l> I clearly remember Microsoft Bob
[16:08] <snap-l> it was the golden era of desktop metaphor when we pushed it way too far.
[16:09] <snap-l> Good, if highly flawed, concept
[16:10] <snap-l> I remember seeing a Magic Desk device and wondered who was smoking what when they came up with it.
[16:10] <Duolos> I understood the concept of trying to relate everything in a computer to the real world, but they really didn't do it well.
[16:11] <snap-l> I wonder if they might have more success now
[16:11] <Duolos> I was about to say that they assumed everyone was too stupid to understand computers otherwise, but then I remembered I've done tech support.  They were right.
[16:11] <snap-l> Though I think that's where a lot of designers are headed.
[16:16] <jrwren> we need a better in-hand or palm-top metaphor :)
[16:42] <Wolfger> woot-off mouse pads :-) http://www.woot.com/
[16:55] <snap-l> I still have mousepads.
[16:55] <snap-l> And I semi-collect mousepads.
[17:04] <Wolfger> I would be all over that deal if it wasn't for the $5 s&h
[17:05] <jrwren> remember when we were talking about give camp ann arbor last week or so?
[17:05] <jrwren> I talked to the organizer, and he said he agrees...the FAQ is a turn off.
[17:05] <jrwren> they are actually looking to use wordpress for nearly all their charities.
[17:06] <jrwren> https://twitter.com/#!/mjeaton/status/103511891942440960
[17:07] <snap-l> BTW: In case everyone else is working off of the same misguided notion that I had that there is more time before the global jam than there is:
[17:07] <snap-l> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-michigan/1090/detail/
[17:07] <jrwren> nope. 2 weeks.
[17:08] <Wolfger> 2 weeks?
[17:08] <Wolfger> I thought it was in September
[17:08] <snap-l> And september is 2 weeks. :)
[17:08] <brousch> i will not be attending
[17:08] <jrwren> DateTime.Now
[17:08] <Wolfger> holy carp
[17:08] <snap-l> I thought there was more time. ;)
[17:08] <Wolfger> September is only 2 weeks away!
[17:09] <Wolfger> well, give or take 3 days
[17:09] <snap-l> brousch: Are you planning a west-side shin-dig?
[17:09] <brousch> no, i have a family thing
[17:09] <snap-l> OK
[17:09] <brousch> i sent out the call if anyone else wants to run it, but no one said anything
[17:09] <snap-l> LMK if anyone over there gives the inkling that they might want to plan something
[17:10] <brousch> jjesse is the most likely
[17:10] <brousch> ptenhoopen is a suse-lover
[17:10] <Wolfger> didn't greg-g move out west? Let him plan it. :-D
[17:10] <snap-l> Heh
[17:11] <brousch> actually we've never had a jam out here. i have always wandered over to the east side for it
[17:11] <brousch> we only do release parties
[17:11] <snap-l> No worries. Just tryin to update the wiki and schtuff.
[17:12] <Wolfger> crack the whip, fearless leader
[17:12] <snap-l> I really wish Team reports worked off the loco directory. :)
[17:12] <snap-l> That would be so much nicer, frankly
[17:12] <snap-l> set it, and walk away. ;)
[17:22] <snap-l> Apparently Picasa is having some troubles.
[17:23] <snap-l> Getting a 500 error
[17:29] <jrwren> what do ya'll think of this?  http://www.thoughtworks.com/articles/technology-radar-july-2011
[17:30] <snap-l> Initial thoughts: Who are these people, and why should I care?
[17:31] <_stink_> i quickly got bored.
[17:32] <snap-l> Second thought: Throw enough buzzwords in there, and you might get a bingo
[17:33] <snap-l> Third thought: Looks like another group of people want to get in on the business-analyst snake-oil parade
[17:33] <snap-l> "All too often caching is an afterthought used to address performance problems with a blanket approach and common cache lifetime. This leads to issues and workarounds. The “time value” of information is inherently linked to the business purpose and hence needs to be captured at the same time as other requirements. We believe thoughtful caching should be addressed early in the project and not just treated as a last minute performance fi
[17:34] <rick_h_> jrwren: I saw the original radar, thought it was cool
[17:34] <snap-l> "All too often, brushing your teeth is regarded as an afterthough in your morning routine, but good oral hygiene is key to better health. Consider thoughtfully brushing your teeth every morning for at least three minutes".
[17:35] <jrwren> rick_h_: this one?
[17:35] <rick_h_> if only because I could hand it to my boss and go "look, these things I keep talking about are on here"
[17:35] <rick_h_> I showed the actual radar pdf
[17:35] <rick_h_> looking for the link
[17:35] <jrwren> cool
[17:36] <rick_h_> http://www.thoughtworks.com/sites/www.thoughtworks.com/files/files/thoughtworks-tech-radar-july-2011-us-color.pdf
[17:36] <rick_h_> shared that with my boss, git moved to the adopt which I've worked the last year on getting into play
[17:37] <rick_h_> node.js was in here somewhere
[17:37] <rick_h_> db deployment automation was a good one
[17:37] <rick_h_> devops
[17:37] <rick_h_> anyway
[17:37] <snap-l> I really don't like these trending papers.
[17:38] <snap-l> Makes technology into a fad
[17:38] <rick_h_> meh, but it helps the boss to see I'm not just saying we should check out this thing I just saw on /./hackerews/reddit
[17:38] <rick_h_> /hackerews/hackernews
[17:38] <snap-l> "Oh, look, Node.js just arrived on the carpet with a fab entourage of web socket APIs. Sweetie! over here!"
[17:39] <rick_h_> if you want to change, have to sell it to the boss first
[17:39] <snap-l> Right, I get that
[17:39] <snap-l> I remember our CIO at Chrysler was on the cover of CIO magazine
[17:40] <snap-l> She was dimmer than a failing 10 watt bulb when it came to tech
[17:41] <snap-l> That's what these papers remind me of.
[17:41] <rick_h_> at least this one isn't all EJB and etc
[17:41] <snap-l> rick_h_: Oh, no doubt.
[17:41] <rick_h_> it's got a heartbeat in real tech, see github, git, etc
[17:41] <snap-l> Gartner is another one for publishing bullshit trending
[17:45] <jrwren> snap-l: agreed.
[17:46] <jrwren> but I also agree with rick_h_
[17:46] <jrwren> you can point to it as something authoritative
[17:46] <jrwren> and it comes from thoughtworks.
[17:46] <snap-l> Yeah, I mean there's good reasons for these things to exist
[17:46] <jrwren> one of the highest respected sources
[17:46] <rick_h_> honestly, it's pretty. I don't know that my boss would point out thoughtworks
[17:46] <snap-l> but they still irk me
[17:46] <rick_h_> but the pdf is pretty :)
[17:56] <brousch> what the ... firefox 6 is out?
[17:58] <snap-l> brousch: Welcome to the abbreviated release cycles that everyone wanted. ;)
[17:58] <brousch> they'll be at FF 10 by the end of the year
[17:59] <snap-l> Yep. ;)
[17:59] <snap-l> You can also blame Chrome for this.
[17:59] <jrwren> look at teh changelog, its not TAHT interesting
[18:09] <rick_h_> websockets back in, scratchpad/updated dev tools, and server hook api is about most of it
[18:11] <jrwren> yup, none of that effects me AFAIK
[18:11] <snap-l> How much of it affects you, though? ;)
[18:12] <Blazeix> I think they added text-overflow:ellipsis support, which is nice
[18:12] <Blazeix> at least they were supposed to, I haven't actually looked at the changelist
[18:12] <rick_h_> I want to play with websockets at some point, and scratchpad will be cool for quickly doing some js code sharing with co-workers
[18:20] <brousch> rick_h_: you're rubbing off on people
[18:20] <brousch> my friend is threatening to chop off hands if people use raw sql in their code, and he says it's because of you
[18:21] <rick_h_> awesome
[18:24] <jrwren> damn shame.
[18:24] <rick_h_> ssh jrwren
[18:25] <rick_h_> hah, js unit tests, FF6 28s FF5 36s Chrome13 18s phantomjs 8s
[18:26] <snap-l> heh
[18:35] <jrwren> phantomjs?
[18:35] <jrwren> rawsql in code is the right solution for a certain subset of problems.
[18:36] <rick_h_> jrwren: true, and I had a slide for that
[18:37] <rick_h_> http://www.phantomjs.org/
[18:37] <rick_h_> headless webkit
[18:37] <jrwren> awesome.
[18:37] <jrwren> zomg, so awesome.
[18:37] <rick_h_> yea, so can run my JS client side unit tests via command line and it's 2x as fast as running in chrome currently
[18:38] <rick_h_> and 3x FF6
[19:27] <snap-l> Updated the team reports to have the Ubuntu Hour / CHCs, and lococasts on them
[19:27] <snap-l> If anyone has a blog post for the older release parties / jams, please feel free to add them. ;)
[19:48] <rick_h_> go snap-l
[19:49] <snap-l> These wiki pages are a real PITA>
[19:49] <snap-l> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MichiganTeam/TeamReports
[19:49] <snap-l> I know we have more release parties and what-not to report
[19:56] <snap-l> Routing through the mailing lists, and noticing that the Monthly IRC Meeting was instituted in 2009
[20:06] <brousch> i was putting them on our main wiki page
[20:07] <brousch> the old moinmoin page
[20:08] <brousch> i don't know where that went
[20:12] <brousch> so i should go into the team reports and fill in crap that happened?
[20:21] <snap-l> brousch: Yeah, anything you notice is missing
[20:21] <snap-l> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MichiganTeam/TeamReports
[20:21] <brousch> i swaer i did that once already. tell them to quit moving things
[20:22] <snap-l> They very well might be there.
[20:25] <brousch> yeah, mine are in there
[20:38] <snap-l> OK, cool
[20:38] <snap-l> Put out the call for anyone else who might have photos or recollection of what went on
[21:02] <brousch> the flickr group is nice for photos
[21:26] <snap-l> http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/pointofsale.html
[21:26] <snap-l> I know what my next keyboard is. ;)
[23:02] <TeamXlink> Anyone up for scrabble?
[23:02] <TeamXlink> www.games.yahoo.com/lt
[23:03] <TeamXlink> Another person and I are in the Social Lounge 8 we would like too play with at least 3 total people instead of just him and I.
[23:03] <TeamXlink> Last call before we start the game.
[23:44] <_stink_> i am going to murder AT&T
[23:45] <snap-l> _stink_: Please don't.
[23:46] <snap-l> I'm liking what I'm seeing of Oneiric thus far
[23:46] <snap-l> seems slightly more stable on theUSB key.
[23:52] <rick_h_> _stink_: what did they do to you?
[23:53] <snap-l> http://askubuntu.com/questions/49348/how-do-i-set-a-theme-in-oneiric<- Seriously?
[23:58] <snap-l> Also, can someone riddle me why Startup Applications gets a menu entry?