[07:15] <jussi> astraljava: nose to the grindstone boy! ;P :P :P :P
[07:36] <astraljava> Oh you know it. :)
[07:37] <astraljava> Yesterday, just 15 hours. I'm such a slacker.
[07:59] <jussi> yep, should be her 23.5. you get half hour rest period per day! :P
[08:08] <astraljava> Come again?
[08:08]  * abogani waves all
[08:08] <astraljava> Hi abogani!
[08:08] <abogani> astraljava: Hi Janne!
[08:09] <astraljava> abogani: noticed a weird issue with the lowlatency kernel, possibly. When running the amd64, and suspending the laptop, when we're resuming, and I stick the 3G USB broadband stick in, the kernel would go oops.
[08:10] <astraljava> But it was sporadic, so I didn't report a bug yet, need to do more testing to see whether it is consistent or not.
[08:10] <astraljava> Cause I noticed that the machine would do that on -generic randomly when suspending/resuming as well.
[08:11] <astraljava> Sometimes, not all the time.
[08:11] <astraljava> And for the past week or so, everything's just worked.
[08:27] <abogani> astraljava: If persist send the the oops' output please.
[08:30] <astraljava> abogani: Sure, will do. I'll continue testing on a desktop machine, though, as soon as work business slows down a bit. Hopefully this week, though.
[08:32] <abogani> astraljava: Ok, thanks.
[12:36] <falktx> hm, what about a custom GRUB menu?
[13:18] <scott-work> falktx: ailo i'm going to respond to the emails, just been really busy last night and today, about audacity
[13:18] <scott-work> the short is that we talked about work flows and what uses are available
[13:18] <scott-work> ardour seemed to supported the work flows that most people considered important
[13:19] <scott-work> david did add a work flow about editing the odd audio recording
[13:19] <scott-work> but it didn't seem like something most people would want to do on a regular basis
[13:20] <scott-work> that is why i asked about what function it would provide
[13:20] <scott-work> if everyone is adamant about including it then i'm not going to be a dick about this though ;)
[13:23] <ailo> scott-work, Audacity is a very important tool. The reason why a music newbie might not know that is the same reason why such a person won't know anything at all about audio apps
[13:24] <ailo> And if you want to inform the user on how to certain tasks, you show them what apps to use, and how
[13:24] <ailo> Through documentation
[13:26] <ailo> scott-work, This is why we need to ask experienced people on what software they use to what tasks, and base workflows on that
[13:26] <ailo> There's no such thing as a newbie way to do things
[13:26] <ailo> There's just a good way, and a bad way
[13:27] <ailo> Or, there are good ways, and bad ways
[13:27] <ailo> And sometimes what the good way is, is a matter of personal reference
[13:28] <ailo> I have some experience in using software for audio
[13:28] <ailo> I know holstein has too
[13:28] <ailo> I don't know about the rest of the people involved in this project
[13:31] <ailo> I believe package selection for the standard install of UbuntuStudio should contain apps to cover all standard workflows
[13:39] <scott-work> ailo: you touched upon a good point...i did ask people and i made decisions based on the input received
[13:40] <scott-work> also, i am not saying that audacity cannot be used to make very refined products because it can
[13:40] <ailo> scott-work, Audacity is an audio file editor. It's not a DAW. It has a special purpose
[13:40] <scott-work> but it seems that most people who are into audio tend to use ardour, perhaps because it is "professional"
[13:41] <ailo> scott-work, Ardour is a different beast all together. 
[13:41] <ailo> scott-work, Servers a different purpose
[13:41] <scott-work> i will be forthingcoming about my feeling, i'm getting a little mad
[13:42] <scott-work> i asked for input, recieved little, made decisions, and now people are coming behind after things have happened and questioning why it happened and saying that it should have been different
[13:44] <scott-work> my original concerns when i started the work flows is that people seemed to want certain applications in ubuntu studio either "just because" or that it "seemed like a neat application"
[13:44] <scott-work> i wanted to make sure that what we had supported something that people actually wanted to do and could fully support it
[13:45] <scott-work> but as i said, if there is a majority that feel that it is important to put it back into the seeds then i will not object
[13:45] <ailo> scott-work, I don't feel the work-flows have been explored yet. 
[13:45] <ailo> scott-work, And choosing packages for them is too early
[13:46] <ailo> I would need to look at some apps more carefully
[13:46] <ailo> And also, discover more about plugins 
[13:46] <ailo> You can do a lot with just a small set of plugins
[13:46] <ailo> You don't need 2000 of themn
[13:47] <ailo> If you want to do a mixing work-flow, you choose a set that does the job
[13:48] <falktx> scott-work: take for example AutoStatic's example. he's does not uses Ardour
[13:49] <falktx> I guess for people that don't use Ardour, Audacity is a quick way to process samples
[13:49] <falktx> I use it to, for example, cut some pieces of a music, edit & crossfade and export to the phone (free ringtone!)
[13:50] <falktx> it seems like loading Ardour just to do some small tasks like this should not be needed, I guess...
[13:51] <ailo> The fact of the matter is that Audacity is an audio file editor, that is used mainly to process single files, while Ardour is a daw for recording and mixing, and they serve two different purposes. Even though you can do a lot with either of them, they are designed for different things and different tasks
[13:52] <ailo> Just saw David H's response on the mail list about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows#Simple_recording_of_concert.2C_conversation_etc
[13:52] <ailo> Hadn't noticed that part had grown a bit
[13:52] <ailo> It's a good start
[13:53] <falktx> hm, I think I can come up with some ladish project demos
[13:54] <falktx> I'll need to install oneiric first though
[13:54] <ailo> falktx, I believe that would be the best way to create the "actual" work-flows
[13:54] <falktx> me too
[14:04] <scott-work> i will reiterate my question about audacity (i'm not trying to be a dick mind you), what purpose will audacity server?  what is the user trying to accomplish?
[14:04] <scott-work> but i wouldn't say "editing a single file" would be a goal, it is a step of something larger
[14:04] <scott-work> it's too ambiguous
[14:05] <scott-work> i had a work flow about podcasts, i think audacity is perfect for this
[14:05] <scott-work> but i choose not to incorporate the podcast work flow because we can't provide a complete tool chain with what is in the repos
[14:05] <scott-work> what i'm asking other people to provide a goal, like "producing a podcast", that requires audacity
[14:06] <scott-work> ailo: i agree with plugins, i don't like that they are all in there
[14:06] <scott-work> i have removed the ones i could with my current knowlege, for example i removed the swh-pugins when swl-lvs came about (i'm probably buthcering the package names)
[14:07] <scott-work> i would really like to remove a crap load of them but i dont' feel qualified at this point because i lack expereience and knowledge with them :(
[14:07] <falktx> scott-work: swh-ladspa are very useful
[14:08] <falktx> but I dont know much about plugins, sorry
[14:08] <scott-work> but i can say that i also don't want to just provide a single compressor (for example) because different ones perform differently
[14:08] <scott-work> falktx: but i replaced it with swh-lv2 which is a port i believe
[14:09] <falktx> scott-work: yes, but many hosts don't support lv2 yet
[14:09] <falktx> scott-work: since these plugins are the same, I actually think it's better to keep both versions
[14:10] <falktx> so users can use the same plugin in different apps
[14:10] <falktx> (including audacity, hehe)
[14:10] <scott-work> we are also shipping zynjack with lv2rack so if it works with jack it should be able to use swh-lv2
[14:10] <falktx> yes
[14:10] <scott-work> if we choose to ship audacity then we probably should include swh-ladpsa then
[14:10] <falktx> I guess it's better yes
[14:11] <falktx> scott-work: if audacity was removed, what other audio editor would replace it?
[14:11] <falktx> or no just-audio-editor at all?
[14:15] <scott-work> falktx:  why are you editing audio?  that will help understand which editor is required
[14:16] <scott-work> qtractor is also shipped currently i believe which is more in line with what autostatic is doing
[14:16] <ailo> qtractor is great, since ardour has no midi
[14:16] <ailo> And what else does qtractro have, besides midi, compared to Ardour?
[14:17] <scott-work> whick is mainly why it is included, it effectively replaced seq24 which is more of a live performance sequencer
[14:17] <scott-work> ailo: it now has auomatic, but it has allowed plugins for a while
[14:17] <falktx> midi means synth plugins, so DSSI
[14:18] <falktx> ardour has no plans for DSSI support
[14:18] <ailo> Audacity is used mainly for editing samples, doing detailed mastering of single files as well as mixes, and also - it is used to create electro-acoustic musi 
[14:19] <ailo> For basic use, it's great for just making samples
[14:21] <ailo> You can do some things on Ardour instead of using Audacity, but since Ardour is not meant for editing audio files on a detailed level, it gets clumpsy
[14:22] <ailo> Audio editing is becoming more and more a part of DAW's like Ardour
[14:24] <scott-work> ailo: okay, so a good goal for audacity could be to make samples for sound fonts?
[14:24] <scott-work> or other samples for other reasons?
[14:25] <scott-work> including editing podcast
[14:25] <ailo> scott-work, Any situation where you want to open a single file, do some editing, and save it, or even convert it, Audacity is a good tool for that
[14:26] <ailo> scott-work, If you're creating a sample-bank, you would probably use a lot of the same settings for a big pool of files
[14:26] <ailo> scott-work, Like this http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Batch_Processing
[14:26] <ailo> Now, you can do some of those things on Ardour, but not as easily, or as well
[14:26] <scott-work> ailo: but i'm trying to stay away from generalized statements like "editing a file" because while it sounds tangible it may not be, i'm trying to get at the root of WHY they want to edit a file
[14:27] <scott-work> without understanding why we can't understand how often this will be used or what other tools might be necessary
[14:27] <scott-work> i believe this is why the subtitle-editor package was included into the seeds at one point
[14:27] <scott-work> because someone could "create subtitles"
[14:28] <scott-work> but the problem was that no one (except one person probably) wanted to do that
[14:28] <scott-work> also alot of the other tools were included to support creating a movie or whatever other goal you might expect to use sub-titles for
[14:28] <ailo> scott-work, I don't have time to talk more about this now. All I can say is that Audacity is such a widely used tool, that we had it installed at school on Macs instead of using proprietary software
[14:29] <ailo> I understand that you don't know what it's for. I would need to think more about it and write up a lot of use case
[14:29] <ailo> Maybe explain in detail what it means to edit a sound file
[14:32] <ailo> Sorry for being very blunt. I don't mean to sound like a dick, if I do