[00:02] <Ian_Corne> well
[00:02] <Ian_Corne> first came tv ofcource
[00:03] <Ian_Corne> with the simpsons and friends and all other shows
[00:03] <Ian_Corne> everthing is subtitled here in Flanders (flemish part of belgium)
[00:05] <sebsebseb> hi
[00:07] <Ian_Corne> hey
[00:08] <sebsebseb> Ian_Corne: hey
[00:32] <DanaG> hmm, Oneiric upgrade is uninstallable, because it wants to remove ubuntu-desktop... but it won't tell me the actual dependency info.
[00:32] <DanaG> Where is that info logged?
[00:33] <jtaylor> probably just some archive inconsistency, wait a while
[00:33] <penguin42> is that from a gui or command line?
[00:35] <DanaG> Both update-manager and do-release-upgrade return the same failure.
[00:36] <DanaG> I do have some amount of third-party repo stuff, but I moved sources.list.d away temporarily.
[00:36] <DanaG> It should just fire up aptitude to try to resolve, or something. =þ
[00:36]  * penguin42 would try from the command line, it normally says more - or as jtaylor says, give it a while and try again
[00:37] <penguin42> DanaG: But if you've got 3rd party stuff in, I'd purge those first (using purge-ppa)
[00:37] <DanaG> Is there a log somewhere?
[00:38] <yofel> there is somewhere in /var/log/
[00:38] <DanaG> Ah, now I remember what I had third-party.... mainly just va-api stuff, I think.
[00:38] <DanaG> I tried building mplayer-vaapi myself, and it kept giving me "unknown parameter: -va"
[00:40] <penguin42> va?
[00:41] <DanaG> yeah, you have to do -vo vaapi -va vaapi
[00:41] <DanaG> or at least you did last time I tried.
[00:41] <penguin42> what is 'va'
[00:41] <DanaG> Beats me, but it was always required.  vo alone didn't do it.
[00:41] <penguin42> shrug
[00:41] <DanaG> For mplayer-vaapi.
[00:42] <DanaG> Anyway, I found /var/log/dist-upgrade/
[00:51] <DanaG> http://paste.ubuntu.com/671381/
[00:51] <DanaG> There's the apt.log.
[00:52] <DanaG> at-spi and gnome-orca.  Removing them now.
[00:57] <penguin42> anyway, bed
[01:01] <DanaG> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/at-spi/+bug/790240
[01:01] <DanaG> ah, no need to file a bug.. it's already there.
[01:10] <Ian_Corne> DanaG: I think all 3rd party repos get disabled automaticly when you do-release-upgrade, doesn't help with the purge tho
[01:10] <DanaG> Actually, I think my issue was that one.
[01:10] <DanaG> My gripe with the disabling third-party:
[01:11] <DanaG> It not only disables PPAs; it also switches from blazing-fast mirrors.kernel.org to slow archive.ubuntu.com.
[01:11] <Ian_Corne> :D
[01:15] <DanaG> Really, I'd say it should disable third-party only if the third-party doesn't have Ubuntu's official signature.
[01:39] <bjsnider> DanaG, the -va option means "video acceleration"
[01:39] <bjsnider> haven't seen you in here in a log time
[01:40] <DanaG> Yeah, I've been working at a company that's primarily Windows-based, and have been playing games when on the weekend.
[01:40] <DanaG> But I decided that I might as well try +1 on my laptop... and leave my server on Natty.
[01:40] <bjsnider> you escaped cal poly san luis obispo?
[03:26] <DanaG> hmm, issues with libc-bin...
[03:30] <DanaG> Woah, boatloads of dependency issues.
[03:30] <DanaG> Things like libgl1-mesa-glx.
[03:31] <DanaG> libc-bin conflicts with libc-bin
[03:33] <DanaG> Hmm, only aptitude is showing all that, when I try to dist-upgrade.
[03:33] <DanaG> It wants to remove darn near everything.
[03:35] <DanaG> How can a package conflict with itself?
[03:36] <DanaG> apt-get, on the other hand, is giving sane results.
[03:45] <DanaG>  './usr/share/doc/libglib2.0-0/changelog.Debian.gz' is different from the same file on the system
[03:46] <DanaG> ah, probably getlibs.
[03:54] <DanaG> rm'ing the file fixed it.
[03:59] <micahg> DanaG: aptitude doesn't seem to work with multiarch fully
[04:00] <DanaG> ah.
[04:00] <DanaG> hmm, would it be possible to, as a workaround, ignore non-native packages?
[04:00] <micahg> idk
[04:02] <DanaG> I'd imagine that'd be easier to do than making it fully support multiarch.
[04:02] <DanaG> s/making/to make/
[05:33] <DanaG> Argh, stupid X... makes my text tiny by ignoring my screen's real size.
[05:33] <DanaG> It's a feature!  Now I have a 20-inch laptop!
[05:33] <DanaG> Oh, and my panel is entirely missing.
[05:34] <DanaG> Ouch, that tiny text is already giving me a headache.
[05:38] <DanaG> Okay, so once I set it to 1.5 scaling (thanks to Xorg lying), the size 11 default is huge.
[05:40] <DanaG> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705
[05:45] <bullgard4_> [GNOME 3] Why is there a file /usr/share/applications/synaptic-kde.desktop although I never asked for KDE when I set up my Oneiric?
[05:46] <rww> the synaptic package contains .desktop files for GNOME and KDE, I'd assume.
[05:46] <rww> Probably because one uses gksudo and the other kdesudo
[05:48] <bullgard4_> Ah! Thank you.
[05:48] <jbicha> bullgard4_: it looks like the second to the last line in synaptic-kde.desktop is the answer also but I don't know what it means
[05:53] <bullgard4_> jbicha: The last line of my file synaptic-kde.desktop reads: "OnlyShowIn=KDE;". Do you refer tho this line of text?
[05:53] <bullgard4_> -h
[05:53] <jbicha> the line above that
[05:56] <bullgard4_> jbicha: The last but one line of my file synaptic-kde.desktop reads: "X-KDE-SubstituteUID=true". I do not know the function of the X-KDE-SubstituteUID flag.
[05:57] <jbicha> neither do I, but you can Google for it if you like
[06:05] <bullgard4_> I found an explanation here (although not explicitely for Ubuntu): https://features.opensuse.org/307769: "All YaST .destop files in /usr/share/applications/YaST2 use the "X-KDE-SubstituteUID" to make them running as root. X-KDE-SubstituteUID is a KDE only "workaround" for that only KDE is supposed to be able to understand. Really, also GNOME as very famous DE understand that."
[06:23] <vyshay> how can i get flashplayer working? http://pastebin.com/HT7cQ4xj
[06:28] <IdleOne> !flash64
[06:29] <vyshay> that page is really old
[06:30] <micahg> vyshay: how long have you been running oneiric?
[06:30] <vyshay> 2 weeks.  kubuntu
[06:31] <IdleOne> so what if it is old, it works (for me) running kubuntu
[06:31] <micahg> hmm, can you take a look at this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2011-August/000886.html
[06:32] <vyshay> trying it out...
[06:35] <vyshay> i think that's working!  thanks
[06:35] <micahg> vyshay: you're welcome
[08:14] <nperry> anyone else getting all the udev warnings on boot?
[08:14] <rww> yes
[08:18] <nperry> I'll assume there is already a bug report for it then?
[08:19] <nperry> As I can't remember the exact error to report it
[08:19] <nperry> and can't seem to find logs
[08:19] <rww> no idea, sorry :(
[08:20] <nperry> bug 829561
[08:20] <nperry> I think!
[08:46] <raju> hello i am using xubuntu 11.10 i am not getting sound in my system .previously it was played good . to attempt a call i have muted that  and again disabled the mute . but from that instant i am not getting sound. i have tried by restarting my system also
[08:46] <raju> please help on this
[08:52] <raju>  ....
[10:25] <Machtin> safe-upgrade wants to remove gstreamer0.10-camerabin{u}, is this replaced by something?
[10:29] <Ian_Corne> yes
[10:55] <Machtin> good :)
[11:16] <Peddy> jbicha, just dropping by to let you know I 'fixed' my oneric bug of the day - bug 744812. It made qt programs like clementine and smplayer ugly with the default font.
[12:41] <BluesKaj> Hey folks
[12:42] <penguin42> hey
[13:00] <BluesKaj> I have a stack, double fault running after booting into my other pc ...can someone explain this to me ?
[13:02] <BluesKaj> looks like it's checking or writing to the disk , but i've never seen this before so ....
[13:02] <ikonia> whats happening ?
[13:05] <BluesKaj> Double fault 0000 (#incremental numbers scrolling by) SMP
[13:06] <ikonia> has something changed to cause this or did you always get it
[13:06] <penguin42> that's the fall out of whatever was the first message which will have long gone off the top
[13:06] <penguin42> hmph - this nspluginwrapper foul up is a pain
[13:07] <BluesKaj> never seen this before
[13:09] <BluesKaj> ikonia, my screen froze , lost use of KB and mouse , so I had to do a hard power down
[13:09] <ikonia> BluesKaj: so just randomly popped up
[13:09] <BluesKaj> upon reboot after grub
[13:09] <BluesKaj> that's when this happened
[13:10] <ari-tczew> if I have installed nvidia-current 280.13, how can I force it to got it enabled? Jockey shows - installed, not used
[13:11] <penguin42> hmph, annoying - downgrading nspluginwrapper doesn't help
[13:15] <BluesKaj> penguin42, check this out, it works on my pc, https://launchpad.net/~sevenmachines/+archive/flash/+packages
[13:16] <penguin42> BluesKaj: Yeh but why doesn't downgrading both nspluginwrapper and flashplugin-installer work?
[13:16] <BluesKaj> penguin42, just remove nspluginwrapper
[13:18] <penguin42> yeh but I don't understand what just changed
[13:19] <BluesKaj> a more mature flashplugin , it runs without the plugin wrapper , maybe ?
[13:23] <penguin42> BluesKaj: no, that ppa is just the 64bit beta - not the same thing
[13:24] <BluesKaj> well penguin42 ,sorry , guess i misunderstood
[13:41] <zniavre> good afternoon
[13:41] <zniavre> im using OO with gnome-panel session
[13:42] <zniavre> but there  is bluetooth and network-applet icons missing
[13:42] <zniavre> like everybody using gnome-panel session?
[16:52] <auk> hello, is it just me or is flash currently broken in the repos?
[16:52] <penguin42> auk: Yes it is
[16:53] <BluesKaj> auk, there's afix on sevenmachines/launchpad
[16:53] <Ian_Corne> not really a fix
[16:53] <Ian_Corne> it's just the 64 bit version
[16:53] <BluesKaj> well it works
[16:53] <Ian_Corne> yeah
[16:53] <Ian_Corne> workaround
[16:53] <Ian_Corne> but it's better then using 32bit flash on 64 bit systems
[16:53] <BluesKaj> no nspluginwrapper needed
[16:55] <penguin42> Be careful about recommending the 64bit version - it's not obvious when it's security maintained
[16:55] <penguin42> and it's a beta that can disappear (it has done before)
[16:56] <auk> ok many thanks i'm going to go ahead and install from sevenmachines
[16:57] <auk> is this a recent development with the flash package or is it long-standing?
[16:57] <penguin42> auk: Last week
[16:57] <BluesKaj> well.I didn't realize that the wrapper ws being used at first but most system nowadays are 64bit
[16:58] <penguin42> BluesKaj: It's because Adobe won't release the 64bit officially rather than as a Beta
[16:59] <BluesKaj> penguin42,  because it's a bit buggy or is it politics ?
[16:59] <penguin42> BluesKaj: Poltiics I think - at one point they pulled it completely; and the problem is you really need to keep up to date with Flash versions for security
[17:00] <bjsnider> this situation appears to have changed
[17:00] <penguin42> bjsnider: Where?
[17:00] <bjsnider> the alst 2 flash 11 releases have had both arches
[17:01] <penguin42> Adobe still list it as Beta on their site
[17:01] <bjsnider> flash 11 is at beta
[17:02] <bjsnider> so that is a misleading statement
[17:02] <bjsnider> i386 is also beta at the moment
[17:02] <penguin42> bjsnider: http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/?no_redirect shows 64bit as a 'preview release'
[17:02] <penguin42> (for 10.x)
[17:03] <bjsnider> http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer11.html
[17:04] <bjsnider> they are offering both amd64 and i386 side by side
[17:04] <penguin42> bjsnider: Right, so the interesting question is whether the 64bit will survive when it finally gets released
[17:04] <bjsnider> it looks like it will
[17:05] <penguin42> bjsnider: The flashplugin-installer packages only install release stuff not beta; and it'll be great if it does survive
[17:06] <bjsnider> well, the official stuff does that, but there are custom ppa versions, like mine and sevenmachines
[17:07] <bjsnider> and with oneiric multiarch should mean that everybody can use the i386 version if they want
[17:19] <fasta> How can I see the difference between a crashed Ubuntu and one which just takes eons of time to load?
[17:20] <fasta> Or: why is there no real progress bar or some escape hatch to show me what it is doing?
[17:21] <fasta> Also, it doesn't boot.
[17:26] <bjsnider> fasta, if you hit escape when the boot screen is appearing you can see what it's doing
[17:27] <fasta> bjsnider: OK, I see that, but I see all kinds of udev problems.
[17:28] <fasta> bjsnider: what happened to gnome-2.X in this version of Ubuntu?
[17:28] <fasta> bjsnider: i.e. Ubuntu Classic.
[17:29] <Ian_Corne> it is no longer supported
[17:29] <bjsnider> it isn't needed anymore
[17:29] <fasta> Why not?
[17:30] <fasta> Your 'new' interface is pretty broken and lacks any kind of polish compared to 2.X.
[17:30] <bjsnider> there's a 2d unity and a gnome-shell fallback
[17:30] <fasta> bjsnider: how does gnome-shell compare to gnome 2.x?
[17:31] <bjsnider> fasta, that's too general a question
[17:31] <bjsnider> you can try it for yourself if you want
[17:32] <fasta> bjsnider: is gnome-shell newer?
[17:32] <Ian_Corne> yes
[17:32] <Ian_Corne> it's gnome3's default shell
[17:32] <bjsnider> gnome-shell is gnome-2's replacement
[17:32] <Ian_Corne> well, gnome-shell is gnome-panel's replacement, no? :p
[17:33] <Ian_Corne> gnome2 and 3 are just collections of packages, right?
[17:33] <fasta> Ok, and what about the ton of issues I have with simply booting my machine?
[17:33] <bjsnider> that's right
[17:33] <fasta> It takes about 5 minutes and human intervention to get to a desktop.
[17:33] <Ian_Corne> you're gonna have to be more cspecific fasta
[17:33] <fasta> Ian_Corne: where is the boot process logged?
[17:33] <bjsnider> i guess the easiest response is "it's alpha software, expect problems"
[17:34] <fasta> bjsnider: 11.04 also has problems.
[17:34] <fasta> bjsnider: 9.10 also had problems.
[17:34] <bjsnider> maybe on your system
[17:34] <fasta> bjsnider: on multiple systems.
[17:34] <bjsnider> not all hardware is as friendly to linux as we'd like
[17:34] <fasta> bjsnider: it has nothing to do with hardware.
[17:35] <fasta> bjsnider: these all were Ubuntu specific problems.
[17:35] <Ian_Corne> i've got a feeling you're just venting your rage
[17:35] <bjsnider> did they fix all the bugs you submitted?
[17:35] <Ian_Corne> use another distro then.
[17:35] <fasta> bjsnider: no
[17:35] <fasta> Ian_Corne: no, you should just say 'oh, do cat <blah/bootlog>
[17:35] <fasta> Ian_Corne: then I could give a dump of all the issues and then I assume someone would actually fix it.
[17:36] <fasta> Unless you want Ubuntu to keep sucking forever.
[17:36] <bjsnider> what did they do about the bugs you submitted?
[17:36] <fasta> bjsnider: they basically asked whether I could check it with a newer version...
[17:37] <fasta> bjsnider: because they never read the bugs in the first place. Way to go.
[17:37] <fasta> 1) Create a buggy system 2) Wait for users to get pissed 3) No users
[17:37] <Ian_Corne> dmesg is a good start to look at boot stuff, xorg log
[17:37] <fasta> Ian_Corne: what is wrong with that answer?
[17:38] <bjsnider> ubuntu has a lot more users than any other distro
[17:38] <Ian_Corne> well, if you would be a little friendlier, maybe i would have helped you with more joy
[17:38] <fasta> Ian_Corne: the answer is wrong, because there should simply be one command which will dump everything relevant to a file suitable for debugging.
[17:39] <fasta> Ian_Corne: this requires multiple user interactions, which is a sure sign of bad system design.
[17:39] <Ian_Corne> ugh
[17:39] <fasta> Every program should provide a reason for failing.
[17:39] <Ian_Corne> i'm out
[17:39] <fasta> A good reason.
[17:39] <Ian_Corne> And people shouldn't make war
[17:39] <fasta> Not some lame excuse because some lame programmer was too lazy writing the program right the first time.
[17:40] <penguin42> fasta: Writing big programs is hard! Yes some of the bugs in Ubuntu are silly, but hey all the programmers are human
[17:40] <fasta> penguin42: writing big programs is easy.
[17:40] <fasta> penguin42: I know, because I did.
[17:40] <bjsnider> what program?
[17:40] <fasta> bjsnider: nothing which is open-source.
[17:40] <fasta> bjsnider: well, I did write some patches.
[17:40] <bjsnider> photoshop?
[17:41] <Ian_Corne> :p
[17:41] <fasta> bjsnider: no, not photoshop.
[17:41] <bjsnider> microsoft turd?
[17:41] <IAmNotThatGuy> bjsnider, :P
[17:41] <fasta> bjsnider: ....
[17:41] <bjsnider> windows internet exploder?
[17:42] <fasta> I think it is just epic failure if in 2011 you are not able to boot an extremely standard Intel processor successfully.
[17:42] <bjsnider> yeah but this is alpha software
[17:42] <fasta> All the involved standards are years old.
[17:42] <Ian_Corne> and it's not just the processor..
[17:43] <fasta> All the hardware is fine.
[17:43] <fasta> It is the higher level stuff which messes up things.
[17:43] <penguin42> fasta: The problem is that the testing tends to be done on a relatively small set of hardware, especially not older stuff
[17:43] <fasta> The drivers are pretty good too.
[17:43] <fasta> (They still suck, but they are not the main problem).
[17:43] <fasta> It are the programmers that do the 'glueing together of stuff' that are the problem.
[17:43] <bjsnider> the drivers are pretty good but they suck
[17:44] <fasta> bjsnider: I have high standards.
[17:44] <Ian_Corne> and a bad attitude
[17:44] <fasta> (which incidentally is the problem with Ubuntu(
[17:44] <fasta> )
[17:44] <bjsnider> i say get in the trenches and fix the problems yourself. you clearly have the ability
[17:44] <Ian_Corne> http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ go, implement your own high standards
[17:44] <penguin42> fasta: Please don't come here and just moan about things!
[17:44] <BluesKaj> fast doyou have any positive ideas to help the situation or....?
[17:45] <penguin42> fasta: Feel free to fix things though so that they do meet your standards
[17:45] <fasta> bjsnider: the reason likely is that there is no incentive for me to fix all the broken systems introduced by others.
[17:45] <bjsnider> well, getting your system working to your own satisfaction is reason enough, no?
[17:46] <kyubutsu> no
[17:46] <BluesKaj> fasta, so you say others should have the incentive . but not you ?
[17:46] <fasta> BluesKaj: there is a company behind it, no?
[17:46] <kyubutsu> fastaOS will top the charts when it comes out in 2055
[17:46] <penguin42> fasta: I agree it is depressing when lots of things are broken - I don't know a good way to stop it happening though; the problem is that there is a lot of requirement for drivers for new hardware and new features (that IMHO aren't great) but that doesn't necessarily let stuff stabilise
[17:47] <bjsnider> i would use fastaos
[17:47] <Tetsuo55> its fairly easy to prevent it
[17:47] <fasta> Writing an OS takes about a month or so.
[17:47]  * BluesKaj throws fasta a crying towel
[17:47] <bjsnider> what would it cost me to run it?
[17:47] <Tetsuo55> you just need a good and compelete toolcycle
[17:47] <kyubutsu> there, i gave you plenty of time for perfection, fasta
[17:48] <Tetsuo55> all patches need to go through a codereview, like gerrit, then a buildbot tries to compile it, and when that works it runs unit tests
[17:48] <bjsnider> took microsoft 6 years to write vista
[17:48] <fasta> kyubutsu: by that time you are already replaced by a machine anyway.
[17:48] <bjsnider> 6 years and $4 billion
[17:48] <fasta> bjsnider: because they do backwards compatibility.
[17:48] <Tetsuo55> the only hard part is getting a builbot for all the more common hardware configurations
[17:49] <fasta> bjsnider: and because they put all kinds of pointless stuff into their OS.
[17:49] <Tetsuo55> but i guess you could talk to the bigger manufacturers about that
[17:49] <Tetsuo55> and we need more people calling up the hardware manufacters to demand proper open source data and drivers
[17:50] <Tetsuo55> (even on other os's like windows)
[17:50] <fasta> I don't care about open source. We need protocols that are defined.
[17:50] <kyubutsu> :(
[17:51] <fasta> The protocols are about specifications. A pile of code means nothing by itself.
[17:51] <Tetsuo55> when you make defined protocols for hardware and drivers, your already 90% open source
[17:51] <Tetsuo55> the protocols and specs are mostly closed source right now
[17:51] <bjsnider> so you don't care if the process of defining the protocols is open or if an organization like apple just comes out and says 'this is the way it is'
[17:51] <Tetsuo55> and all the drivers already supposedly follow linux kernel specs perfectly
[17:52] <fasta> bjsnider: you are just a troll.
[17:52] <kyubutsu> :o
[17:52] <bjsnider> i are?
[17:53] <kyubutsu> whoa.. thought this was -offtopic for a second
[17:53] <kyubutsu> :o
[17:53] <fasta> bjsnider: yes, because I never said that.
[17:53] <Tetsuo55> if you guys are serious about this stuff
[17:53] <Tetsuo55> http://keithcu.com/wordpress/
[17:53] <Tetsuo55> http://keithcu.com/wordpress/?page_id=407
[17:53] <bjsnider> you said you didn't care about open source
[17:54] <Tetsuo55> thats a book and blog by an ex-microsoft employee that focusss on the big problems like kernel instability
[17:54] <kyubutsu> guys, ubuntu-offtopic is over there --->
[17:54] <Tetsuo55> hes also contacted linus several times
[17:55] <Tetsuo55> he also targets ubuntu directly, saying that more should be invested in bug-fixing devs
[17:55]  * penguin42 has some sympathy with that - I wouldn't mind a primarily bug fix release
[17:55]  * BluesKaj thinks there's , about trollstransference going on here
[17:55] <bjsnider> canonical doesn't have unlimited resources
[17:56] <penguin42> say one in every 5 releases; no new features (except keeping up with current hardware), just fixes
[17:57] <BluesKaj> kyubutsu, nope it's over here on my client <-----  :)
[17:57] <fasta> AFAIK, hardware didn't change in the past 30 years in any significant way.
[17:57] <kyubutsu> then go debian, and come to ubuntu+1 for giggles and fun, penguin42
[17:57] <kyubutsu> :-P
[17:58] <fasta> It is just a leadership problem.
[17:58] <penguin42> fasta: That's not true - it's much more complex to get a PC to do everything these days unless you want to only run text mode
[17:58] <penguin42> fasta: Just to interact with a USB keyboard is 10s of times harder than an old PS/2 one as a simple example
[17:58] <fasta> penguin42: and why is it so hard?
[17:58] <penguin42> kyubutsu: Well except Debian doesn't either!
[17:58] <fasta> penguin42: not because it is inherently hard.
[17:59] <penguin42> fasta: No, it's because there are more layers of protocol in the hardware/firmware - and the OS has to deal with them
[17:59] <penguin42> fasta: But people expect more these days; they expect suspend/resume, they expect hot plug USB devices, error recovery on SATA, etc
[17:59] <penguin42> fasta: They expect that when they plug in their printer that the right driver gets loaded - not that everything is just an FX-80 like it was 30 years ago!
[17:59] <kyubutsu> 19 million lines of kernel code cant be wrong!
[18:00] <kyubutsu> >:(
[18:00] <penguin42> kyubutsu: Well....
[18:00] <BluesKaj> one would think the ppl here are getting paid to fix things , from your attiude fasta , take it to canonical and be done with it
[18:01] <fasta> kyubutsu: yes, they can.
[18:01] <penguin42> fasta: They expect power saving features, they expect it to run well on multi core processors, on machines with 512MB RAM (e.g. a netbook/tablet) and machines with 128GB RAM, work off an SD card and a vast fibre channel storage array - doing all that is hard!
[18:02] <penguin42> fasta: Now personally those things are more important to me than pretty GUI but hey
[18:02] <fasta> penguin42: well, I disagree that doing that is hard.
[18:02] <penguin42> fasta: Hah  - then we agree to disagree!
[18:02] <fasta> penguin42: all of that might be 'work', but it is not a hard scientific problem.
[18:02] <BluesKaj> penguin42, I think you've just been trolled :)
[18:02] <kyubutsu> penguin42: you forgot to mention wifi connectivity
[18:03] <kyubutsu> :(
[18:03] <penguin42> kyubutsu: Oh yeh that's about a billion lines of code...
[18:03]  * penguin42 prefers ether - you know where your packets are going with ether
[18:03] <fasta> The only hard part is artificial barriers like not telling what the hardware does in the first place.
[18:03] <BluesKaj> this is going nowhere ...bbl
[18:03] <fasta> Perhaps also broken hardware, which doesn't meet the spec, but those items should simply not work.
[18:04] <fasta> They should be returned to the store.
[18:04] <fasta> E.g. all realtek chips should never ever have existed in the first place.
[18:04] <fasta> Linux uses tons of code to work around all kinds of problems, but then there are still cases in which it might not work.
[18:04] <BluesKaj> where's the OT cops ? !
[18:05] <fasta> I will stop.
[18:08] <bjsnider> you don't work for realtek in the publicity dept. i guess
[18:08] <fasta> So, I have failed to execute '/lib/udev/input_id' input_id /devices/<lots of stuff>'.
[18:09] <fasta> Just tell me why that should possibly happen.
[18:09] <BluesKaj> my realtek chip works ok, except there's nosimultaneous analog and digital audio output
[18:09] <fasta> I also get mtrr: type mismatch for e0000000, 100000000 old: write-back new: write-combining.
[18:10] <BluesKaj> but I can't expect mush from an entry level integrated soundard
[18:10] <penguin42> fasta: I think the mtrr stuff is normally BIOS bugs that the kernel fixes
[18:10] <BluesKaj> mush heh =much
[18:10] <fasta> penguin42: ah, so you are saying that before it did work and with an Ubuntu change it doesn't work anymore that it really is the BIOS fault?
[18:11] <fasta> penguin42: generally Linux doesn't work that way; it tries to work arounds things.
[18:11] <penguin42> fasta: Possibly; that mtrr message is just a warning though; I don't think it should be a killer
[18:11] <fasta> penguin42: it is not a killer, since if I wait a few minutes I can boot just fine.
[18:11] <fasta> penguin42: however, gdm does not start automatically.
[18:12] <fasta> penguin42: so, I have to do that manually and if I do that, I can get a KDE session.
[18:12] <Ian_Corne> fasta: install lightdm
[18:12] <penguin42> fasta: I doubt the mtrr stuff is causing that (bad MTRR settings can cause stuff to run **very** slowly - i.e. cache off - but I doubt thats the cause here)
[18:12] <Ian_Corne> it's the new greeter for 11.10
[18:12] <fasta> But the fact that I need to do all of this, is pretty insane.
[18:12] <penguin42> fasta: Yeh you shouldn't have to - it's a bug if you're having to; but hey +1 is still in Alpha
[18:12] <Ian_Corne> for an alpha release?
[18:12] <Ian_Corne> No it's not insane.
[18:13] <fasta> Ian_Corne: what would that help?
[18:13] <Ian_Corne> isntalling lightdm?
[18:13] <fasta> Ian_Corne: yes
[18:13] <penguin42> fasta: I'd say the udev stuff sounds more of an issue - I've seen some stuff happen with broken udev config files (e.g. added for special devices like scanners or mobile phones) that were broken config files
[18:13] <fasta> Ian_Corne: I already did, though.
[18:13] <Ian_Corne> enable it as the default greeter
[18:14] <Ian_Corne> and check if it works now
[18:14]  * penguin42 gets dinner
[18:14] <fasta> penguin42: ok, I did that now.
[18:14] <fasta> Ian_Corne: ok, I did that now.
[18:14] <Ian_Corne> what's in your /etc/udev/rules.d?
[18:14] <Ian_Corne> there shouldn't be to much in there
[18:14] <fasta> The udev stuff is also pretty impossible to debug.
[18:14] <Ian_Corne> well check that direcotry
[18:14] <Ian_Corne> directory
[18:15] <fasta> It should say 'file /hadasdasdasd/dasdas/dadasdas/d.sh' had a non-zero exit status.
[18:15] <Ian_Corne> as penguin42 stated you could be using broken config files
[18:15] <Ian_Corne> but it doesn't so no sense in complaining here about it
[18:15] <Ian_Corne> write a bugreport, send a msg to the udev maintainer mailing list
[18:15] <Ian_Corne> ubuntu-bug udev
[18:16] <Ian_Corne> is the command
[18:16] <fasta> Ian_Corne: likely it is just a matter of deleting some files for my system.
[18:16] <fasta> (all of these problems could have been stopped at compile time, btw)
[18:17] <fasta> Er prevented*
[18:17] <Ian_Corne> compiletime?
[18:17] <Ian_Corne> installation time
[18:17] <fasta> Ian_Corne: no, at compile time.
[18:18] <fasta> Anyway, that's again another discussion.
[18:18] <fasta> Can I force it to continue somewhat faster?
[18:18] <Ian_Corne> so they should check, when they do the build of the package, if there are any wrong files on YOUR system?
[18:18] <fasta> It seems there is some time out going on.
[18:18] <bjsnider> fasta, do you know there are actual channels where you can talk to the devs about these concerns?
[18:18] <bjsnider> such as #ubuntu-devel, and #ubuntu-motu
[18:18] <Ian_Corne> fasta: i asked you to list the contents of /etc/udev/rules.d
[18:19] <Ian_Corne> but you still didn't respond
[18:19] <fasta> Ian_Corne: you also asked me to reboot my computer.
[18:19] <Ian_Corne> when?
[18:19] <fasta> Ian_Corne: and it so happens that it still didn't gave me the new window.
[18:19] <fasta> Ian_Corne: saying whether I want to 'resume' booting.
[18:19] <Ian_Corne> window?
[18:19] <Ian_Corne> ah
[18:20] <fasta> Ian_Corne: so, this is a boot with that other dm installed.
[18:20] <fasta> Ian_Corne: now I have the resume dialog.
[18:21] <Ian_Corne> ok
[18:21] <fasta> Ian_Corne: there are just 70-perseistent-cd.rules and 70-persistent-net.rules and README
[18:21] <fasta> Ian_Corne: modulo that typo.
[18:21] <Ian_Corne> ok, so nothing fishy there
[18:22] <Ian_Corne> well, my next step would be to do "ubuntu-bug udev"
[18:22] <Ian_Corne> it will collect the logs files and create a bug report on launchpad
[18:22] <Ian_Corne> more knowledgeable people will help you there
[18:25] <fasta> I think I am just going to recompile my kernel myself.
[18:25] <fasta> Likely someone has already fixed it (as always).
[18:25] <Ian_Corne> you think it's a kernel problem?
[18:26] <fasta> Ian_Corne: yes, I think so.
[18:26] <fasta> lightdm is pretty useless, imho.
[18:56] <Gamoder> Hi - I wonder whether 11.10 will be supporting significantly more (and/or better) hardware than the current 11.04 does (especially regarding Nvidia Optimus and some «Multitouch»-Touchpads)
[18:59] <penguin42> Gamoder: I don't know, but if you knew which program/package deals with it then it might be possible to look at the changelog for that package
[19:01] <Gamoder> Unfortunately I don't think I know that - and since I am currently not using mentioned new-hardware notebook I can't look it up now
[19:04] <DanaG> Speaking of touchpads, I wish somebody would address this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-input-synaptics/+bug/546697
[19:05] <DanaG> There's precisely one Windows driver that unlocks multi-finger detection on ALL touchpads... so we need to figure out how it's doing that.
[19:05] <Gamoder> strange - I had no problems using «multitouch» (well - two-finger-scroll/tap - which is all I need) with my old notebook
[19:06] <DanaG> And speaking of scrolling, Gnome really needs an option to enable BOTH kinds of scrolling.
[19:07] <Gamoder> you mean scrolling both on the edge and using two fingers? Well - i personally don't need it, but of course it would be nice. But hey, it's Gnome and not KDE, so ...
[19:08] <DanaG> For me, I need it if I want to use a magic trackpad with my laptop.
[19:08] <DanaG> Internal touchpad won't do two-finger (at least, in Linux, or in any other Windows driver).
[19:08] <Gamoder> Magic trackpad = the thing you can do finger gestures on?
[19:09] <DanaG> So either I get two-finger on magic trackpad and NO SCROLLING AT ALL on internal,
[19:09] <DanaG> Or I get edge-scrolling on both.
[19:09] <Gamoder> ah, ok
[19:09] <Gamoder> So I'd prefer edge-scrolling on both :-)
[19:09] <DanaG> I'd prefer to have both on both.
[19:09] <DanaG> With that one magic Windows driver, I have two-finger and edge scrolling on the internal touchpad.
[19:09] <Gamoder> ok - but actually, for my new notebook, I would like to have at least one of all these options :-)
[19:10] <DanaG> The Windows driver for the magic trackpad suck too much, though.
[19:10] <DanaG> lost an 's' there.
[19:10] <Gamoder> yeah - Windows mouse acceleration is somewhat strange, I think
[19:11] <DanaG> The internal touchpad, on the other hand, is great in Windows.
[19:11] <DanaG> Magic Trackpad's driver is deliberately garbage.
[19:11] <DanaG> Can't even right-click properly.
[19:14] <DanaG> Anyway, what kind of touchpad do you have?
[19:14] <DanaG> Recent Synaptics?
[19:15] <Gamoder> Some kind of Alps Touchpad, I think
[20:50] <mongy> ok I am trying out alpha3.  how can I change font sizes?
[20:52] <Ian_Corne> i think via ubuntu-tweak
[20:53] <Ian_Corne> or something along those lines
[20:53] <penguin42> scary that doesn't seem doable by default
[20:53] <rww> !info gnome-tweak-tool
[20:54] <rww> ubuntu tweak is a different thing :)
[20:54] <Ian_Corne> idd penguin42
[20:55] <rww> psh, why would normal users /ever/ want to change the font size. /s
[21:00] <mongy> because its just huge
[21:01] <mongy> first thing I do since unity is reduce font and reduce the big wedge that is the launcher
[21:05] <Dimmuxx> reducing font size is always one of the first things I do on a fresh ubuntu install
[21:05] <htorque> gnome devs should consider renaming that tool. "tweak" is a synonym for "screw up your system". no windows user will ever try it. :P
[21:06] <DanaG> Yeah, the default font size, assuming CORRECT DPI, is huge.
[21:06] <Gamoder> Hmm ... not that bad for me
[21:06] <DanaG> Unfortunately, Xorg pulls screen dimensions out of its butt to make up a hardcoded 96 DPI.
[21:06] <DanaG> So I now have a 20-inch laptop!  It's a feature!
[21:07] <Ian_Corne> hehe
[21:07] <DanaG> I booted Ubuntu, and bam, instant headache from the tiny font size.
[21:07] <ali1234> DanaG: it only does that when used with broken hardware and/or drivers
[21:08] <ali1234> unless you use KDE, then anything can happen
[21:09] <ali1234> if i didn't have a 24" monitor i would definitely want to decrease the font size
[21:09] <htorque> so, only in the common case. :P i'm a bit sad you can only change a "text-scaling-factor" instead of the dpi setting...
[21:10] <Gamoder> I never have wanted to decrease the font size
[21:10] <penguin42> is fairly sure people often want to increase stuff if they have bad eyes or a high res display
[21:10] <Gamoder> But a problem is that even for a given font size, GTK (at least the default sytle) needs much space - especially visible when comparing Windows-Eclipse VS Gnome-Eclipse
[21:18] <diverse_izzue> my nautilus hangs upon opening a file properties dialog. anyone else?
[21:20] <DanaG> ali1234: wrong.
[21:20] <DanaG> It actively lies.
[21:20] <DanaG> http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705
[21:21] <ali1234> works for me
[21:55] <dupondje> Damn Empathy
[21:55] <dupondje> its like the most crashing app :s
[21:57] <BUGabundo> Power Night o/
[22:09] <BUGabundo> does this work for anyone? http://madebyevan.com/webgl-water/
[22:13] <etph987> anyone know a hack to get classic gnome on 11.10?
[22:13] <rww> !info gnome-session-fallback
[22:13] <rww> assuming "something that looks moderately like GNOME 2" counts as "classic gnome"
[22:13] <rww> since there is no GNOME 2 on oneiric
[22:13] <etph987> unity drives me crazy, got classic running on 11.04
[22:14] <Ian_Corne> etph987: have you looked at lxde?
[22:15] <etph987> like kde
[22:16] <etph987> is there a way of upgrading to gnome 3 in 11.04?
[22:17] <rww> !gnome3
[22:17] <rww> oh, right, #ubuntu+1
[22:17]  * rww sighs
[22:17] <rww> etph987: /msg ubottu !gnome3
[22:18] <Ian_Corne> etph987: there's a ppa
[22:18] <Ian_Corne> BUT
[22:18] <Ian_Corne> i wouldn't do it
[22:18] <etph987> how come? lan_Come
[22:19] <Ian_Corne> Ian Corne
[22:19] <Ian_Corne> ;-)
[22:19] <rww> as I said, /msg ubottu !gnome3
[22:19] <Ian_Corne> because when I tried it, it didn't work well and broke unity and gnome-classic
[22:20] <etph987> ohh k
[22:20] <Ian_Corne> but rww has to tell you something
[22:20] <Ian_Corne> :p
[22:21] <etph987> ubottu !gnome3
[22:21] <Ian_Corne> no, he said /msg ubottu !gnome3
[22:22] <rww> doesn't work in here, there's a !gnome3-#ubuntu+1. hence me saying /msg.
[22:22] <Ian_Corne> It basicly says what I said, didn't know :)
[23:33] <BUGabundo> nite tech world
[23:33] <Ian_Corne> gn
[23:34] <alex-mayorga> I got caught in the multiarch changes, any easy fix?
[23:34] <alex-mayorga> !multiarch
[23:34] <jtaylor> whats your issue?
[23:35] <Ian_Corne> i guess the ndiswrapper?
[23:35] <alex-mayorga> sudo aptitude safe-upgrade fails with Unable to resolve dependencies for the upgrade: no solution found.
[23:35] <jtaylor> did you enable multiarch?
[23:36] <alex-mayorga> yup, followed https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2011-August/000886.html
[23:36] <poolie> hi
[23:36] <poolie> is it just me or is it really hard to resize windows on oneiric unity
[23:36] <poolie> if they don't have a resize grab handle within the window
[23:36] <jtaylor> yes some don't have it
[23:37] <jtaylor> there were some complaints about them, apparently someone caved :(
[23:37] <jtaylor> I liked them
[23:37] <jtaylor> alex-mayorga: can you give more detail
[23:39] <alex-mayorga> I got bitten by bug 357965
[23:39] <alex-mayorga> that lead to bug 830526
[23:39] <jtaylor> thats a old bug :O
[23:39] <alex-mayorga> so I followed https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2011-August/000886.html
[23:40] <alex-mayorga> no my regular aptitude update aptitude safe-upgrade is not working
[23:40] <alex-mayorga> just looking for a fix, if any
[23:40] <jtaylor> what does apt-get dist-upgrade say`
[23:41] <alex-mayorga> jtaylor: 35 upgraded, 9 newly installed, 11 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
[23:41] <alex-mayorga> let me go that route, thanks
[23:41] <jtaylor> check what it removes
[23:41] <jtaylor> dist-upgrade is not safe
[23:42] <alex-mayorga> brltty-x11 gir1.2-unity-3.0 gnome-mag gstreamer0.10-camerabin libatspi1.0-0
[23:42] <alex-mayorga>   libgjs0b liblightdm-gobject-0-0 libntfs-3g75 libpulse-browse0
[23:42] <alex-mayorga>   lightdm-greeter-example-gtk ntfsprogs
[23:42] <alex-mayorga> shall I cancel?
[23:43] <poolie> jtaylor, were you replying to me about resizing?
[23:43] <jtaylor> yes
[23:43] <jtaylor> but I know nothing about it
[23:43] <alex-mayorga> poolie: I think there's a known issue about 1 pixel borders
[23:43] <jtaylor> alex-mayorga: seems safe
[23:44] <alex-mayorga> jtaylor: thanks! I'm upgrading right now
[23:44] <Ian_Corne> alex-mayorga: show us what it's going to install too
[23:44] <Ian_Corne> newly
[23:44] <Ian_Corne> i think ntfsprogs doesn't have a replacement, which is normal and brltty either
[23:44] <Ian_Corne> the rrest should have a replacement
[23:45] <Ian_Corne> but as long as ubuntu-desktop isn't removed, you should keep a working system I think
[23:45] <miki>   404  Not Found [IP: 91.189.88.40 80]
[23:46] <alex-mayorga> Ian_Corne: here http://paste.ubuntu.com/672005/
[23:46] <Ian_Corne> ah kernel updates! good :)
[23:47] <alex-mayorga> should I go ahead?
[23:47] <Ian_Corne> think so
[23:47] <jtaylor> yes looks fine
[23:47] <Ian_Corne> I did these updates before too
[23:47] <alex-mayorga> thanks guys
[23:47] <Ian_Corne> except the kernel
[23:47] <Ian_Corne> don't know about that
[23:48] <jtaylor> kernell upgrades are usually safe
[23:48] <jtaylor> as they don't remove the old one
[23:48] <jtaylor> if it breaks, boot the old one
[23:48] <alex-mayorga> yup, would let you know
[23:49] <alex-mayorga> for now my system is Flash free, due to google-talkplugin
[23:49] <alex-mayorga> dunno if that's a bod or good thing :)
[23:49] <Ian_Corne> jtaylor: but they can break your gfx blob
[23:49] <Ian_Corne> because dkms doesn't install for the older kernels
[23:49] <Ian_Corne> alex-mayorga: alot of websites still use flash, so i dunno
[23:50] <poolie> how am i supposed to tab between windows within a single application?
[23:50] <Ian_Corne> if you can live without, good for you
[23:50] <rww> poolie: Alt-`
[23:50] <alex-mayorga> Ian_Corne: only thing I miss id grooveshark.com
[23:50] <rww> poolie: might be Alt-keyAboveTab, dunno, but it's ` on my keyboard
[23:50] <Ian_Corne> aha :)
[23:50] <Ian_Corne> yeah didn't even realise it used flash
[23:50] <Ian_Corne> alex-mayorga: you're on 64bit?
[23:51] <alex-mayorga> Ian_Corne: yup
[23:51] <Ian_Corne> https://launchpad.net/~sevenmachines/+archive/flash/+packages
[23:51] <Ian_Corne> 64 bit beta flash plugin
[23:51] <alex-mayorga> wait, the dist upgrade is pulling Flash now
[23:51] <Ian_Corne> it's pretty stable
[23:51] <Ian_Corne> ah
[23:51] <Ian_Corne> also good
[23:51] <Ian_Corne> i like the 64 bit one better then the 32bit+ndis
[23:52] <alex-mayorga> it crapped again with: nspluginwrapper: no appropriate viewer found for /usr/lib/flashplugin-installer/libflashplayer.so
[23:52] <Ian_Corne> yeah it's broken :p
[23:52] <jtaylor> it didn't install any i386 libs
[23:52] <Ian_Corne> idd
[23:52] <alex-mayorga> Ian_Corne: let me try the 64 bit Flash
[23:52] <poolie> rww that's what i guessed, since that's it on mac, but it doesn't work for me
[23:52] <alex-mayorga> I do miss the music down here :(
[23:53] <poolie> jtaylor, right, bug 160311, a very popular bug
[23:53] <rww> poolie: open Alt-tab, tab to application you want, then start doing Alt-`. That worked for me yesterday.
[23:53] <alex-mayorga> anyone else with now scroll arrows on Terminal windows?
[23:53] <rww> I was wondering who originally had the bad idea for that behavior, btw. Utterly unsurprised to hear that it came from OS X
[23:54] <poolie> rww
[23:54] <Ian_Corne> ugh ` tabbing
[23:54] <poolie> wow, that's kind of cool but not very discoverable
[23:54] <alex-mayorga> Ian_Corne: mind walking me the PPA route, please?
[23:54] <poolie> also, why not make it look at the top level?
[23:54] <Ian_Corne> it's awful, i'm on azerty
[23:55] <jtaylor> apt-add-repository ppa:sevenmachines/flash
[23:55] <Ian_Corne> alex-mayorga: sudo add-apt-repository ppa:sevenmachines/flash
[23:55] <Ian_Corne> done
[23:55] <Ian_Corne> ok jtaylor !
[23:55] <jtaylor> update, install flashplugin64-installer
[23:55] <Ian_Corne> steal my thunder why don't you!
[23:55] <jtaylor> ._.
[23:55] <Ian_Corne> :)
[23:57] <jtaylor> no one using opera here or?
[23:57] <jtaylor> because my flash is broken with opera
[23:57] <jtaylor> but works fine with other browsers
[23:59] <alex-mayorga> jtaylor: not here