[00:02] well [00:02] first came tv ofcource [00:03] with the simpsons and friends and all other shows [00:03] everthing is subtitled here in Flanders (flemish part of belgium) [00:05] hi [00:07] hey [00:08] Ian_Corne: hey [00:32] hmm, Oneiric upgrade is uninstallable, because it wants to remove ubuntu-desktop... but it won't tell me the actual dependency info. [00:32] Where is that info logged? [00:33] probably just some archive inconsistency, wait a while [00:33] is that from a gui or command line? [00:35] Both update-manager and do-release-upgrade return the same failure. [00:36] I do have some amount of third-party repo stuff, but I moved sources.list.d away temporarily. [00:36] It should just fire up aptitude to try to resolve, or something. =þ === akgraner` is now known as akgraner [00:36] * penguin42 would try from the command line, it normally says more - or as jtaylor says, give it a while and try again [00:37] DanaG: But if you've got 3rd party stuff in, I'd purge those first (using purge-ppa) [00:37] Is there a log somewhere? [00:38] there is somewhere in /var/log/ [00:38] Ah, now I remember what I had third-party.... mainly just va-api stuff, I think. [00:38] I tried building mplayer-vaapi myself, and it kept giving me "unknown parameter: -va" [00:40] va? [00:41] yeah, you have to do -vo vaapi -va vaapi [00:41] or at least you did last time I tried. [00:41] what is 'va' [00:41] Beats me, but it was always required. vo alone didn't do it. [00:41] shrug [00:41] For mplayer-vaapi. [00:42] Anyway, I found /var/log/dist-upgrade/ [00:51] http://paste.ubuntu.com/671381/ [00:51] There's the apt.log. [00:52] at-spi and gnome-orca. Removing them now. [00:57] anyway, bed [01:01] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/at-spi/+bug/790240 [01:01] Ubuntu bug 790240 in java-access-bridge (Ubuntu Oneiric) "at-spi needs demotion for oneiric (at-spi2-core in main)" [Medium,Triaged] [01:01] ah, no need to file a bug.. it's already there. [01:10] DanaG: I think all 3rd party repos get disabled automaticly when you do-release-upgrade, doesn't help with the purge tho [01:10] Actually, I think my issue was that one. [01:10] My gripe with the disabling third-party: [01:11] It not only disables PPAs; it also switches from blazing-fast mirrors.kernel.org to slow archive.ubuntu.com. [01:11] :D [01:15] Really, I'd say it should disable third-party only if the third-party doesn't have Ubuntu's official signature. [01:39] DanaG, the -va option means "video acceleration" [01:39] haven't seen you in here in a log time [01:40] Yeah, I've been working at a company that's primarily Windows-based, and have been playing games when on the weekend. [01:40] But I decided that I might as well try +1 on my laptop... and leave my server on Natty. [01:40] you escaped cal poly san luis obispo? === wgrant_ is now known as wgrant [03:26] hmm, issues with libc-bin... [03:30] Woah, boatloads of dependency issues. [03:30] Things like libgl1-mesa-glx. [03:31] libc-bin conflicts with libc-bin [03:33] Hmm, only aptitude is showing all that, when I try to dist-upgrade. [03:33] It wants to remove darn near everything. [03:35] How can a package conflict with itself? [03:36] apt-get, on the other hand, is giving sane results. [03:45] './usr/share/doc/libglib2.0-0/changelog.Debian.gz' is different from the same file on the system [03:46] ah, probably getlibs. [03:54] rm'ing the file fixed it. [03:59] DanaG: aptitude doesn't seem to work with multiarch fully [04:00] ah. [04:00] hmm, would it be possible to, as a workaround, ignore non-native packages? [04:00] idk [04:02] I'd imagine that'd be easier to do than making it fully support multiarch. [04:02] s/making/to make/ [05:33] Argh, stupid X... makes my text tiny by ignoring my screen's real size. [05:33] It's a feature! Now I have a 20-inch laptop! [05:33] Oh, and my panel is entirely missing. [05:34] Ouch, that tiny text is already giving me a headache. [05:38] Okay, so once I set it to 1.5 scaling (thanks to Xorg lying), the size 11 default is huge. [05:40] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705 [05:40] Freedesktop bug 23705 in Server/general "xserver forces 96 DPI on randr-1.2-capable drivers, overriding correct autodetection" [Normal,Reopened] [05:45] [GNOME 3] Why is there a file /usr/share/applications/synaptic-kde.desktop although I never asked for KDE when I set up my Oneiric? [05:46] the synaptic package contains .desktop files for GNOME and KDE, I'd assume. [05:46] Probably because one uses gksudo and the other kdesudo [05:48] Ah! Thank you. [05:48] bullgard4_: it looks like the second to the last line in synaptic-kde.desktop is the answer also but I don't know what it means [05:53] jbicha: The last line of my file synaptic-kde.desktop reads: "OnlyShowIn=KDE;". Do you refer tho this line of text? [05:53] -h [05:53] the line above that [05:56] jbicha: The last but one line of my file synaptic-kde.desktop reads: "X-KDE-SubstituteUID=true". I do not know the function of the X-KDE-SubstituteUID flag. [05:57] neither do I, but you can Google for it if you like === htorque_ is now known as htorque [06:05] I found an explanation here (although not explicitely for Ubuntu): https://features.opensuse.org/307769: "All YaST .destop files in /usr/share/applications/YaST2 use the "X-KDE-SubstituteUID" to make them running as root. X-KDE-SubstituteUID is a KDE only "workaround" for that only KDE is supposed to be able to understand. Really, also GNOME as very famous DE understand that." [06:23] how can i get flashplayer working? http://pastebin.com/HT7cQ4xj [06:28] !flash64 [06:28] You can run Flash, Real, and Java plugins in AMD64 bit computers with Firefox. see the steps to follow at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FirefoxAMD64FlashJava [06:29] that page is really old [06:30] vyshay: how long have you been running oneiric? [06:30] 2 weeks. kubuntu [06:31] so what if it is old, it works (for me) running kubuntu [06:31] hmm, can you take a look at this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2011-August/000886.html [06:32] trying it out... [06:35] i think that's working! thanks [06:35] vyshay: you're welcome [08:14] anyone else getting all the udev warnings on boot? [08:14] yes [08:18] I'll assume there is already a bug report for it then? [08:19] As I can't remember the exact error to report it [08:19] and can't seem to find logs [08:19] no idea, sorry :( [08:20] bug 829561 [08:20] Launchpad bug 829561 in udev (Ubuntu) "udev fails to execute /lib/udev/input_id because of missing files/directories." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/829561 [08:20] I think! [08:46] hello i am using xubuntu 11.10 i am not getting sound in my system .previously it was played good . to attempt a call i have muted that and again disabled the mute . but from that instant i am not getting sound. i have tried by restarting my system also [08:46] please help on this [08:52] .... [10:25] safe-upgrade wants to remove gstreamer0.10-camerabin{u}, is this replaced by something? [10:29] yes [10:55] good :) [11:16] jbicha, just dropping by to let you know I 'fixed' my oneric bug of the day - bug 744812. It made qt programs like clementine and smplayer ugly with the default font. [11:16] Launchpad bug 744812 in ubuntu-font-family-sources (Ubuntu Oneiric) "FontConfig/Qt stack choke on Ubuntu Medium font meta-data (No medium in Inkscape and too bold in Qt apps)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/744812 [12:41] Hey folks [12:42] hey [13:00] I have a stack, double fault running after booting into my other pc ...can someone explain this to me ? [13:02] looks like it's checking or writing to the disk , but i've never seen this before so .... [13:02] whats happening ? [13:05] Double fault 0000 (#incremental numbers scrolling by) SMP [13:06] has something changed to cause this or did you always get it [13:06] that's the fall out of whatever was the first message which will have long gone off the top [13:06] hmph - this nspluginwrapper foul up is a pain [13:07] never seen this before [13:09] ikonia, my screen froze , lost use of KB and mouse , so I had to do a hard power down [13:09] BluesKaj: so just randomly popped up [13:09] upon reboot after grub [13:09] that's when this happened [13:10] if I have installed nvidia-current 280.13, how can I force it to got it enabled? Jockey shows - installed, not used [13:11] hmph, annoying - downgrading nspluginwrapper doesn't help [13:15] penguin42, check this out, it works on my pc, https://launchpad.net/~sevenmachines/+archive/flash/+packages [13:16] BluesKaj: Yeh but why doesn't downgrading both nspluginwrapper and flashplugin-installer work? [13:16] penguin42, just remove nspluginwrapper [13:18] yeh but I don't understand what just changed [13:19] a more mature flashplugin , it runs without the plugin wrapper , maybe ? [13:23] BluesKaj: no, that ppa is just the 64bit beta - not the same thing [13:24] well penguin42 ,sorry , guess i misunderstood [13:41] good afternoon [13:41] im using OO with gnome-panel session [13:42] but there is bluetooth and network-applet icons missing [13:42] like everybody using gnome-panel session? [16:52] hello, is it just me or is flash currently broken in the repos? [16:52] auk: Yes it is [16:53] auk, there's afix on sevenmachines/launchpad [16:53] not really a fix [16:53] it's just the 64 bit version [16:53] well it works [16:53] yeah [16:53] workaround [16:53] but it's better then using 32bit flash on 64 bit systems [16:53] no nspluginwrapper needed [16:55] Be careful about recommending the 64bit version - it's not obvious when it's security maintained [16:55] and it's a beta that can disappear (it has done before) === eric_ is now known as MathsPoetry [16:56] ok many thanks i'm going to go ahead and install from sevenmachines [16:57] is this a recent development with the flash package or is it long-standing? [16:57] auk: Last week [16:57] well.I didn't realize that the wrapper ws being used at first but most system nowadays are 64bit [16:58] BluesKaj: It's because Adobe won't release the 64bit officially rather than as a Beta [16:59] penguin42, because it's a bit buggy or is it politics ? [16:59] BluesKaj: Poltiics I think - at one point they pulled it completely; and the problem is you really need to keep up to date with Flash versions for security [17:00] this situation appears to have changed [17:00] bjsnider: Where? [17:00] the alst 2 flash 11 releases have had both arches [17:01] Adobe still list it as Beta on their site [17:01] flash 11 is at beta [17:02] so that is a misleading statement [17:02] i386 is also beta at the moment [17:02] bjsnider: http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/?no_redirect shows 64bit as a 'preview release' [17:02] (for 10.x) [17:03] http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer11.html [17:04] they are offering both amd64 and i386 side by side [17:04] bjsnider: Right, so the interesting question is whether the 64bit will survive when it finally gets released [17:04] it looks like it will [17:05] bjsnider: The flashplugin-installer packages only install release stuff not beta; and it'll be great if it does survive [17:06] well, the official stuff does that, but there are custom ppa versions, like mine and sevenmachines [17:07] and with oneiric multiarch should mean that everybody can use the i386 version if they want [17:19] How can I see the difference between a crashed Ubuntu and one which just takes eons of time to load? [17:20] Or: why is there no real progress bar or some escape hatch to show me what it is doing? [17:21] Also, it doesn't boot. [17:26] fasta, if you hit escape when the boot screen is appearing you can see what it's doing [17:27] bjsnider: OK, I see that, but I see all kinds of udev problems. [17:28] bjsnider: what happened to gnome-2.X in this version of Ubuntu? [17:28] bjsnider: i.e. Ubuntu Classic. [17:29] it is no longer supported [17:29] it isn't needed anymore [17:29] Why not? [17:30] Your 'new' interface is pretty broken and lacks any kind of polish compared to 2.X. [17:30] there's a 2d unity and a gnome-shell fallback [17:30] bjsnider: how does gnome-shell compare to gnome 2.x? [17:31] fasta, that's too general a question [17:31] you can try it for yourself if you want [17:32] bjsnider: is gnome-shell newer? [17:32] yes [17:32] it's gnome3's default shell [17:32] gnome-shell is gnome-2's replacement [17:32] well, gnome-shell is gnome-panel's replacement, no? :p [17:33] gnome2 and 3 are just collections of packages, right? [17:33] Ok, and what about the ton of issues I have with simply booting my machine? [17:33] that's right [17:33] It takes about 5 minutes and human intervention to get to a desktop. [17:33] you're gonna have to be more cspecific fasta [17:33] Ian_Corne: where is the boot process logged? [17:33] i guess the easiest response is "it's alpha software, expect problems" [17:34] bjsnider: 11.04 also has problems. [17:34] bjsnider: 9.10 also had problems. [17:34] maybe on your system [17:34] bjsnider: on multiple systems. [17:34] not all hardware is as friendly to linux as we'd like [17:34] bjsnider: it has nothing to do with hardware. [17:35] bjsnider: these all were Ubuntu specific problems. [17:35] i've got a feeling you're just venting your rage [17:35] did they fix all the bugs you submitted? [17:35] use another distro then. [17:35] bjsnider: no [17:35] Ian_Corne: no, you should just say 'oh, do cat [17:35] Ian_Corne: then I could give a dump of all the issues and then I assume someone would actually fix it. [17:36] Unless you want Ubuntu to keep sucking forever. [17:36] what did they do about the bugs you submitted? [17:36] bjsnider: they basically asked whether I could check it with a newer version... [17:37] bjsnider: because they never read the bugs in the first place. Way to go. [17:37] 1) Create a buggy system 2) Wait for users to get pissed 3) No users [17:37] dmesg is a good start to look at boot stuff, xorg log [17:37] Ian_Corne: what is wrong with that answer? [17:38] ubuntu has a lot more users than any other distro [17:38] well, if you would be a little friendlier, maybe i would have helped you with more joy [17:38] Ian_Corne: the answer is wrong, because there should simply be one command which will dump everything relevant to a file suitable for debugging. [17:39] Ian_Corne: this requires multiple user interactions, which is a sure sign of bad system design. [17:39] ugh [17:39] Every program should provide a reason for failing. [17:39] i'm out [17:39] A good reason. [17:39] And people shouldn't make war [17:39] Not some lame excuse because some lame programmer was too lazy writing the program right the first time. [17:40] fasta: Writing big programs is hard! Yes some of the bugs in Ubuntu are silly, but hey all the programmers are human [17:40] penguin42: writing big programs is easy. [17:40] penguin42: I know, because I did. [17:40] what program? [17:40] bjsnider: nothing which is open-source. [17:40] bjsnider: well, I did write some patches. [17:40] photoshop? [17:41] :p [17:41] bjsnider: no, not photoshop. [17:41] microsoft turd? [17:41] bjsnider, :P [17:41] bjsnider: .... [17:41] windows internet exploder? [17:42] I think it is just epic failure if in 2011 you are not able to boot an extremely standard Intel processor successfully. [17:42] yeah but this is alpha software [17:42] All the involved standards are years old. [17:42] and it's not just the processor.. [17:43] All the hardware is fine. [17:43] It is the higher level stuff which messes up things. [17:43] fasta: The problem is that the testing tends to be done on a relatively small set of hardware, especially not older stuff [17:43] The drivers are pretty good too. [17:43] (They still suck, but they are not the main problem). [17:43] It are the programmers that do the 'glueing together of stuff' that are the problem. [17:43] the drivers are pretty good but they suck [17:44] bjsnider: I have high standards. [17:44] and a bad attitude [17:44] (which incidentally is the problem with Ubuntu( [17:44] ) [17:44] i say get in the trenches and fix the problems yourself. you clearly have the ability [17:44] http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ go, implement your own high standards [17:44] fasta: Please don't come here and just moan about things! [17:44] fast doyou have any positive ideas to help the situation or....? [17:45] fasta: Feel free to fix things though so that they do meet your standards [17:45] bjsnider: the reason likely is that there is no incentive for me to fix all the broken systems introduced by others. [17:45] well, getting your system working to your own satisfaction is reason enough, no? [17:46] no [17:46] fasta, so you say others should have the incentive . but not you ? [17:46] BluesKaj: there is a company behind it, no? [17:46] fastaOS will top the charts when it comes out in 2055 [17:46] fasta: I agree it is depressing when lots of things are broken - I don't know a good way to stop it happening though; the problem is that there is a lot of requirement for drivers for new hardware and new features (that IMHO aren't great) but that doesn't necessarily let stuff stabilise [17:47] i would use fastaos [17:47] its fairly easy to prevent it [17:47] Writing an OS takes about a month or so. [17:47] * BluesKaj throws fasta a crying towel [17:47] what would it cost me to run it? [17:47] you just need a good and compelete toolcycle [17:47] there, i gave you plenty of time for perfection, fasta [17:48] all patches need to go through a codereview, like gerrit, then a buildbot tries to compile it, and when that works it runs unit tests [17:48] took microsoft 6 years to write vista [17:48] kyubutsu: by that time you are already replaced by a machine anyway. [17:48] 6 years and $4 billion [17:48] bjsnider: because they do backwards compatibility. [17:48] the only hard part is getting a builbot for all the more common hardware configurations [17:49] bjsnider: and because they put all kinds of pointless stuff into their OS. [17:49] but i guess you could talk to the bigger manufacturers about that [17:49] and we need more people calling up the hardware manufacters to demand proper open source data and drivers [17:50] (even on other os's like windows) [17:50] I don't care about open source. We need protocols that are defined. [17:50] :( [17:51] The protocols are about specifications. A pile of code means nothing by itself. [17:51] when you make defined protocols for hardware and drivers, your already 90% open source [17:51] the protocols and specs are mostly closed source right now [17:51] so you don't care if the process of defining the protocols is open or if an organization like apple just comes out and says 'this is the way it is' [17:51] and all the drivers already supposedly follow linux kernel specs perfectly [17:52] bjsnider: you are just a troll. [17:52] :o [17:52] i are? [17:53] whoa.. thought this was -offtopic for a second [17:53] :o [17:53] bjsnider: yes, because I never said that. [17:53] if you guys are serious about this stuff [17:53] http://keithcu.com/wordpress/ [17:53] http://keithcu.com/wordpress/?page_id=407 [17:53] you said you didn't care about open source [17:54] thats a book and blog by an ex-microsoft employee that focusss on the big problems like kernel instability [17:54] guys, ubuntu-offtopic is over there ---> [17:54] hes also contacted linus several times [17:55] he also targets ubuntu directly, saying that more should be invested in bug-fixing devs [17:55] * penguin42 has some sympathy with that - I wouldn't mind a primarily bug fix release [17:55] * BluesKaj thinks there's , about trollstransference going on here [17:55] canonical doesn't have unlimited resources [17:56] say one in every 5 releases; no new features (except keeping up with current hardware), just fixes [17:57] kyubutsu, nope it's over here on my client <----- :) [17:57] AFAIK, hardware didn't change in the past 30 years in any significant way. [17:57] then go debian, and come to ubuntu+1 for giggles and fun, penguin42 [17:57] :-P [17:58] It is just a leadership problem. [17:58] fasta: That's not true - it's much more complex to get a PC to do everything these days unless you want to only run text mode [17:58] fasta: Just to interact with a USB keyboard is 10s of times harder than an old PS/2 one as a simple example [17:58] penguin42: and why is it so hard? [17:58] kyubutsu: Well except Debian doesn't either! [17:58] penguin42: not because it is inherently hard. [17:59] fasta: No, it's because there are more layers of protocol in the hardware/firmware - and the OS has to deal with them [17:59] fasta: But people expect more these days; they expect suspend/resume, they expect hot plug USB devices, error recovery on SATA, etc [17:59] fasta: They expect that when they plug in their printer that the right driver gets loaded - not that everything is just an FX-80 like it was 30 years ago! [17:59] 19 million lines of kernel code cant be wrong! [18:00] >:( [18:00] kyubutsu: Well.... [18:00] one would think the ppl here are getting paid to fix things , from your attiude fasta , take it to canonical and be done with it [18:01] kyubutsu: yes, they can. [18:01] fasta: They expect power saving features, they expect it to run well on multi core processors, on machines with 512MB RAM (e.g. a netbook/tablet) and machines with 128GB RAM, work off an SD card and a vast fibre channel storage array - doing all that is hard! [18:02] fasta: Now personally those things are more important to me than pretty GUI but hey [18:02] penguin42: well, I disagree that doing that is hard. [18:02] fasta: Hah - then we agree to disagree! [18:02] penguin42: all of that might be 'work', but it is not a hard scientific problem. [18:02] penguin42, I think you've just been trolled :) [18:02] penguin42: you forgot to mention wifi connectivity [18:03] :( [18:03] kyubutsu: Oh yeh that's about a billion lines of code... [18:03] * penguin42 prefers ether - you know where your packets are going with ether [18:03] The only hard part is artificial barriers like not telling what the hardware does in the first place. [18:03] this is going nowhere ...bbl [18:03] Perhaps also broken hardware, which doesn't meet the spec, but those items should simply not work. [18:04] They should be returned to the store. [18:04] E.g. all realtek chips should never ever have existed in the first place. [18:04] Linux uses tons of code to work around all kinds of problems, but then there are still cases in which it might not work. [18:04] where's the OT cops ? ! [18:05] I will stop. [18:08] you don't work for realtek in the publicity dept. i guess [18:08] So, I have failed to execute '/lib/udev/input_id' input_id /devices/'. [18:09] Just tell me why that should possibly happen. [18:09] my realtek chip works ok, except there's nosimultaneous analog and digital audio output [18:09] I also get mtrr: type mismatch for e0000000, 100000000 old: write-back new: write-combining. [18:10] but I can't expect mush from an entry level integrated soundard [18:10] fasta: I think the mtrr stuff is normally BIOS bugs that the kernel fixes [18:10] mush heh =much [18:10] penguin42: ah, so you are saying that before it did work and with an Ubuntu change it doesn't work anymore that it really is the BIOS fault? [18:11] penguin42: generally Linux doesn't work that way; it tries to work arounds things. [18:11] fasta: Possibly; that mtrr message is just a warning though; I don't think it should be a killer [18:11] penguin42: it is not a killer, since if I wait a few minutes I can boot just fine. [18:11] penguin42: however, gdm does not start automatically. [18:12] penguin42: so, I have to do that manually and if I do that, I can get a KDE session. [18:12] fasta: install lightdm [18:12] fasta: I doubt the mtrr stuff is causing that (bad MTRR settings can cause stuff to run **very** slowly - i.e. cache off - but I doubt thats the cause here) [18:12] it's the new greeter for 11.10 [18:12] But the fact that I need to do all of this, is pretty insane. [18:12] fasta: Yeh you shouldn't have to - it's a bug if you're having to; but hey +1 is still in Alpha [18:12] for an alpha release? [18:12] No it's not insane. [18:13] Ian_Corne: what would that help? [18:13] isntalling lightdm? [18:13] Ian_Corne: yes [18:13] fasta: I'd say the udev stuff sounds more of an issue - I've seen some stuff happen with broken udev config files (e.g. added for special devices like scanners or mobile phones) that were broken config files [18:13] Ian_Corne: I already did, though. [18:13] enable it as the default greeter [18:14] and check if it works now [18:14] * penguin42 gets dinner [18:14] penguin42: ok, I did that now. [18:14] Ian_Corne: ok, I did that now. [18:14] what's in your /etc/udev/rules.d? [18:14] there shouldn't be to much in there [18:14] The udev stuff is also pretty impossible to debug. [18:14] well check that direcotry [18:14] directory [18:15] It should say 'file /hadasdasdasd/dasdas/dadasdas/d.sh' had a non-zero exit status. [18:15] as penguin42 stated you could be using broken config files [18:15] but it doesn't so no sense in complaining here about it [18:15] write a bugreport, send a msg to the udev maintainer mailing list [18:15] ubuntu-bug udev [18:16] is the command [18:16] Ian_Corne: likely it is just a matter of deleting some files for my system. [18:16] (all of these problems could have been stopped at compile time, btw) [18:17] Er prevented* [18:17] compiletime? [18:17] installation time [18:17] Ian_Corne: no, at compile time. [18:18] Anyway, that's again another discussion. [18:18] Can I force it to continue somewhat faster? [18:18] so they should check, when they do the build of the package, if there are any wrong files on YOUR system? [18:18] It seems there is some time out going on. [18:18] fasta, do you know there are actual channels where you can talk to the devs about these concerns? [18:18] such as #ubuntu-devel, and #ubuntu-motu [18:18] fasta: i asked you to list the contents of /etc/udev/rules.d [18:19] but you still didn't respond [18:19] Ian_Corne: you also asked me to reboot my computer. [18:19] when? [18:19]