[00:28] printer acquired. [00:39] JoDee is watching the Voyager episode where Janwway and Seven of Nine reenact Anne Sullivan and Helen Keller [00:59] is that good or bad? [01:00] it's pathetic [01:00] ah, well in that case... [01:16] Also, loving this printer. [01:16] Everyone should get one while they're on sale at Staples. [01:16] It's a behemoth [01:16] what did you end up getting? [01:21] Brother MFC-8480DN [01:22] Ethernet, with Linux support [01:22] cool [01:25] It has a telnet server. [01:25] show [02:39] everyone having a good night? [02:54] <_stink_> car broke down on the way home from work :P [02:54] <_stink_> but after that, sure. [02:54] boo [02:54] hope it isn't too expensive [02:54] <_stink_> yeah, hoping just the fuel pump. [03:43] blergh [03:43] _stink_: glad to hear you are ok [12:05] rick_h_: did you see the manning deal of the day? [12:07] half off Sass and Compass in Action [12:07] i swear they stalk you [12:11] yea, I saw that, didn't end up getting it [12:11] honestly, not sure there's enough there for a book, but not a fan of manning stuff [12:22] o/ [12:23] reminder _stink_ snap-l widox and company CHC moved: http://coffeehousecode.appspot.com/locations/detroit.html [12:23] brousch: did my first app engine push lol [12:24] heh [12:28] rick_h_: I might be late because JoDee's teaching right up until 8pm [12:31] oh crap, it's wednesday already [12:31] brousch: yes it is sir [12:31] snap-l: ok, cool [12:32] krondor: ^^ as well [12:32] krondor: how did the android meeting go? [12:33] rick_h_: bad turnout (5 people). Though I did help a guy root and get cwm recovery on his galaxy tab 7" [12:34] krondor: why do you think the turnout was bad? [12:34] i'm prodding ptenhoopen_ into getting an android group going here [12:34] krondor: What was the purpose of the meeting? user group? [12:35] brousch: Hopefully soon! [12:35] brousch: a few people messaged said they were out of town or sick. Probably would have had near 10 otherwise (seems to be the average). [12:35] ptenhoopen_: yeah user group [12:35] group attendence does drop in the summer [12:35] yea, that's true [12:35] For dev? Or general usage/modding? [12:35] but it's also a new group [12:35] I think the group needs more presence to attract more people. A dedicated website maybe not just a link off of i3's and some more focus on what content will be discussed meeting to meeting. [12:36] krondor: yea, details sure helps [12:36] also, pie [12:36] sucks, to really get things off the ground really does require a bunch of work/planning [12:37] ptenhoopen_: we are kind of covering all things while we figured out the interest levels. It seems a mix of people so far 1/3 dev 1/3 hacks 1/3 just user (I got this phone what can I do etc...). [12:37] Cool [12:37] only two formal topics so far have been how to setup the android dev environment on linux/windows and last meeting was how to root (also why root). [12:38] We're thinking of starting a dev group in GR. But maybe the usage part might be cool too. [12:39] if I was going to do dev, I'd try to do mobile dev vs just android I think [12:39] I actually thought more general hackerspace members at i3 would be more interested in the; how to interface aurdino to android [12:39] then you'd have enough to skip the usage stuff more [12:40] rick_h_: that's true we had a couple of guys show up for the build env. topic that were iphone devs that were looking at getting into android. [12:40] yea, I mean you might get some that switch attendence depending on the topic [12:40] but some would come to both, and overall get a wider net [12:40] rick_h_: I considered covering more than Android too but the people I talked too were more interested in that than iOS. We'd probably cover phonegap stuff too. [12:40] ptenhoopen_: cool [12:45] I was at this angelbeat conference thingy. Compuware was there telling everyone to scrap their web app dev and make phone apps. They literally said "we've all been assuming the browser is the future platform when we should have thought android and ios were". [12:45] I still feel phone apps are an interim step toward the browser is the platform again w/ html5 webgl etc... [12:45] right, because a mobile app means the web is dead [12:46] yeah I was just thinking really compuware? [12:46] nobody uses a computer at work or at home for surfing the web. they all use ipads now [12:47] even if they all used ipads.. do you really want an app for each tiny website? Installed locally? [12:48] krondor: It would appear that every single vendor out there would like something like that. :) [12:48] no, it is silly [12:48] Then you can see their logo on your home screen [12:48] WElcome back to 1995. "Set our site as your home page" [12:49] * krondor goes to install the great lakes crossing app [12:49] feh [12:49] i think a mobile version of your web site is more important than app for most companies [12:50] Of course Compuware is going to say that, though. They're still floundering trying to figure their place in this world. ;) [12:50] and apps = $$$ [12:50] an app should provide a specific set of tasks [12:50] and Compuware would be more than happy to sell you that app. ;) [12:51] I really didn't get their pitch actually because here they are trying to sell vantage to people to monitor their website performance (simulated clicks and measures of response time and such), then telling people to scrap their web dev. [12:51] made no sense to me [12:51] heh [12:51] krondor: Ahem, let me translate. [12:51] http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/08/24/0110257/Smartphones-the-New-Home-of-Crapware [12:52] "Stop developing web apps in house, and let us do everything for you. We're experts in this field, and you have no hope to survive. Make your time". [12:52] snap-l: ah, ok now I see the light. [12:52] brousch: ++ and yet another reason to root [12:52] brousch: This is why Apple is very adamant about keeping control of the iPhone experience. [12:53] If you let the carriers have control, you get bullshit. [12:53] marketing has no taste. [12:53] at least you can uninstall PC crapware [12:54] hopefully the google/moto phones will not have crapware [12:54] brousch: This goes back to the 286 days, if not earlier [12:54] * brousch realizes google is an ad company [12:54] crap [12:54] half-hearted, half-baked versions of shit software. [12:55] brousch: Google is very sensitive to the user experience [12:55] this is why any phone i buy has to be on cyanogenmod's supported list [12:55] which is why their landing page is very clean [12:56] If nothing else, Google has th same aestherics as Apple [12:56] or very similar. [12:58] So, since we're PC developers now, does that mean in 10 years if we don't adapt to mobile development, we'll be regarded the same way that mainframe developers were regarded when we started in this business? [13:00] snap-l: What do you mean you don't code everything in Java ME? How archaic! [13:00] Wolfger: Don't make me replace you with an EJB. [13:01] brousch: I looked at the cyanogen device list and thought it would be bigger. [13:01] I'm getting a Droid 3 and it isn't listed. [13:01] :( [13:02] Only the original Droid appears on the list. [13:03] ptenhoopen_: Could be an older list [13:03] locked bootloader i think [13:04] Noticed that with printer / scanner lists that are volunteer-supported. [13:05] krondor: I have a friend that hired out some mobile stuff to compuware [13:05] not happy, project was a mess [13:05] was a fun conversation at pyohio this year [13:05] mobile web is the win [13:05] you're just going to try to reinvent the web, links, clicks, tracking, insight into customer experience/etc you just don't get ootb with mobile dev these days [13:06] There's certain things that work well as web, and other things that you want to have an app [13:06] snap-l++ [13:06] messaging apps are 100% better as mobile apps [13:06] though I do wish the tools were better, thinking of redoing bookie's mobile from group up without any toolkit like jquery mobile [13:06] snap-l: why is that? [13:06] rick_h_: Well, on the iPhone it means that we don't have to keep Safari up all the time [13:07] and you can have push notifications [13:07] Google talk is a PITA as a web app on the iPhone [13:07] twitter is usable as an app on the iPhone [13:07] think about irc as a mobile webapp [13:08] yea, I guess. Native notifications, real background, etc not really going to fly on iphone web is it [13:08] Internet Radio is a scosh more usable as an app (but not that much) [13:08] there's Blazeix [13:08] also anything that needs to work offline [13:08] Blazeix: reminder, new location for CHC tonight [13:08] the chc website is updated [13:09] brousch: yea, but the amazon reader app has me rethinking that [13:09] or anything that needs to be accessed by more than 1 app (contacts) [13:09] rick_h_: ok, thanks! [13:09] if they can do that offline...things are getting a lot better than I thought they were [13:09] supposedly html5 offline stuff is a PITA for dev [13:09] brousch: yea, that's apis. There is defintely a need for more api stuff [13:10] rick_h_: Also, networking on a mobile device can go from awesome wifi at home to boondocks bits [13:10] and loading a website over boondocks bits is not fun. ;) [13:11] snap-l: yea, but if you do the app right, that first time you get the site from wifi you should have 99% of hte bits you need for the next call [13:11] (boondocks bits are bits that are made of wood, so they get caught in the phone) [13:11] hmm I wonder if mobile borwsers support deflate ... [13:12] nullspace: gzip compression, or something else? [13:12] nullspace: yea, they all do gzip [13:12] well that will help [13:12] is there a way to detect someone's speed and serve up a lower-bandwidth site? [13:14] brousch: Not reliably [13:14] I suspect you pass them large image that's never used and have a js call back home once it's loaded, but I'd guess that would be pretty hit or miss [13:14] yea, it's something you'd just do as a user selectable option [13:15] start low bandwidth, save a local cache setting [13:15] nullspace: Depending on how low-bandwidth they are, you might never finish that transaction. :) [13:15] user selectable options suck when the widget for the user to select it takes forever to load [13:15] well that can't be allowed [13:16] i think there are proxy services that will downsize images and compress for you [13:17] you could roll your own [13:17] meh, you're just moving hte problem out of your control at that point [13:18] brousch: are you talking as a website dev or as a user frustrated with websites ? [13:18] You might as well serve up gif files at that point, and welcome 1995. [13:18] i suppose the biggest issue is giant javascript libraries, but you can get around that by using Google's jquery so it's more likely to be cached. [13:18] and images, which you can get around by detecting mobile and serving smaller versions [13:18] brousch: Never assume cache [13:18] nullspace: dev [13:19] snap-l: you know you have the love [13:19] nullspace: Some days, I'm all about the tables. :) [13:19] brousch: run yslow against your site [13:19] especially when I have a table that I need to represent. ;) [13:20] snap-l: I disagree, plan and assume cache [13:20] nullspace: i'm just musing in general, not a specific site [13:20] brousch: get slimmer libraries [13:20] zepto vs jquery if you're doing mobile [13:20] you don't need IE6 fixes in the code [13:20] true [13:20] don't use all of jquery ui, etc [13:21] get the widgets you use, that's it [13:21] doesn't that mean more requests? [13:21] and again, get things down on initial page load, but count on cache for rest of app use [13:21] brousch: no, you should be building your JS [13:21] rick_h_: I think we have a topic for lococast. ;) [13:21] snap-l: hah, ok will make a note [13:21] ug, now i have to dynamically program my js too? [13:21] brousch: no, you need to "build [13:21] " it [13:22] and compile my css? [13:22] same for css [13:22] rick_h_: don't forget about a JS and CSS compressor [13:22] :) [13:22] nullspace: == biuld [13:22] err build [13:22] blergh, I really hate compressors. [13:22] heh [13:22] I just do minify + gzip [13:22] not full compress, but yea [13:23] I understand taking 5K source and turning it into 1K spew saves 4k load, but if you ever need to debug it, it's a real PITA [13:24] snap-l: thus the compressor [13:24] and I'd rather have the source, even if I never look at it [13:24] nullspace: How do you mean? [13:25] snap-l: naw, chrome and such have unmin tools [13:25] and production you're not debugging anyway [13:25] I call bullshit. ;) [13:25] I mean, if you debug you're .0001% ofthe requests for that file [13:25] and there are ways around that such as debug flags to the url [13:25] well I'm speaking from using java so on compile it runs through the js and css and minifies them [13:25] I'm talking debugging on the client. [13:26] snap-l: so am I [13:26] there's nothing against a mako template saying: [13:26] Right, that was for nullspave [13:26] nullspace: i suppose on python i'd need a pre-deploy script or something that does those things [13:26] if request.params.debug: include full sources else: include minify [13:26] rick_h_: Right, I get that. :) [13:26] brousch: yea, basically. [13:26] this is where a build server and push to build to deploy comes in [13:27] which if you're going to do a serious mobile app/etc you should have [13:27] uglify.py [13:27] rick_h_: And then you have to make sure that your cached copy = the minified copy = the unminified copy. [13:27] meh, as a dev I have caching turned off almost all the time [13:27] means I get the *worst* case [13:27] so clients are only happier from here [13:27] snap-l: yeah debugging js on the client kinda goes away for us, but we built in the compressor a js tester that basically runs the js and logs errors on the server side [13:28] i know some my problems with learning frameworks is that you get all of this thrown at you, on top of the framework itself [13:28] rick_h_: I've seen some Heisenbugs that way, though [13:28] brousch: right, understand [13:28] this is why true, all out, dev isn't easy [13:29] it's a lot more than just writing some if statements [13:29] Or Excel. ;) [13:29] lol [13:29] libs == good, frameworks == not so good [13:29] to do excel the right way you need to break your data out into a separate excel document and then cells to it [13:29] that's my feeling [13:29] snap-l: yea, I mean you can get some strange issues, but usually you end up with tests, and things get boxed into a few possibly issues [13:29] nullspace: bah [13:30] then abstract out your macros and UI [13:30] frameworks is all about choosing the right tool for the job [13:32] I don't think I'll ever be convinced to try another framework, they seem to only bring another layer of absttraction to learn on top of compatibility issues [13:33] well my rule is never use a framework that you don't know/understand what it's doing inside [13:33] it's like any good tool, you want to use vim..great...but you better understand your .vimrc or you're trapped [13:33] nullspace: that's why I like Flask. tiny amount of framework, plug in the modules you need as you need them [13:33] I've used a ton of frameoworks, php, JS, python, it's all about konwing your framework [13:34] yes [13:34] shoot, jqueryui, etc are all "frameworks" [13:34] I see jquery as a lib [13:35] I said ui [13:35] but even jquery, it gives you certain tools, forces conventions [13:35] ok, well I guess if you've never written your own jquery plugin it's more lib than framework [13:35] but if you've written to their design specs/etc it's a JS framework [13:36] Depending on your definition, you can easily slide between calling libraries frameworks. ;) [13:36] right [13:37] go check out yui3 some time [13:37] I need to figureout how to get the office to move over there [13:37] holy crap, this really clears things up wrt vim for me http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1218390/what-is-your-most-productive-shortcut-with-vim/1220118#1220118 [13:37] brousch: That you can spend 2 hours on the internet researching shortcuts for vim? ;) [13:38] brousch: lol, yea it's good stuff [13:38] no, it explains that it's a language with nouns and verbs and such [13:38] brousch: ah, just shot from the title. ;) [13:38] instead of just a gob of apparently random keyboard shortcuts to memorize [13:38] yea, it was making the rounds this past weekend I think [13:38] I think the big problem is nobody used the old DOS-based editors [13:38] really good stuff [13:39] er, I mean, not a lot of folks currently doing development used the old DOS-based editors [13:41] vi - the programmer's text adventure. ;) [13:43] people told me i had to learn vim's movement commands, i thought they meant jkl; [13:43] <_stink_> i love the anecdote about the origin of the name for grep. [13:43] <_stink_> that's the kind of software history that makes me smile. [13:43] brousch: Yeah, there's a lot more to vi than just up / down / left / right [13:50] there is? [13:50] oh, right.... yy and p too [13:51] and G [13:51] <_stink_> {} [13:55] i think my brain reached its newstuff quota for the day already [13:56] i feel like i just sat through an hour of a rick_h_ presentation [13:57] brousch: lol, uh oh [13:57] sorry man [13:57] not your fault this time, it was the vim post [13:58] remember, with vim take one new command a week [13:58] don't over do it or you'll melt back to eclipse [13:58] i've been using gedit mostly [13:58] sytax highlighting without all the lag [13:59] nice project view [13:59] ugh, man that's like using vim without all the benifits [13:59] I mean, I can at least understand eclipse/etc users wanting their wizads/etc [13:59] uses tabs [14:00] instead of split windows and such [14:00] tabs are evil that is all ... :P [14:00] brousch: you didn't know vim commands are modifier verb? [14:00] i have been using vim or all things i previously used nano for, server admin stuff mostly [14:01] ++ [14:01] I thought tabs were the tops at first, but splits and using buffers is FAR more valueable [14:01] jrwren: well it never really clicked with me [14:02] yea, I off learning vim because they didn't have tabs [14:02] to me dd=delete this line, not delete with this modifier that tells how much to delete [14:02] then 7 came out and I made the jump and realized I was so wrong [14:02] brousch: yeah, bummer. [14:02] brousch: 0d$ ? [14:03] 0v$d? [14:04] is that what I meant? [14:04] no, i was right. [14:04] oh visual. [14:04] i don't use visual unless i need it [14:04] sometimes that extra step/highlight makesthings a bit more clear to users [14:04] if I say v3wd [14:04] definitely. [14:05] they see the three words highlight, then delete [14:05] i dno't use it because I didnt' know about it and use vi for so many years. [14:05] I use visual a ton for limited find/replace/etc [14:05] indent, etc [14:06] vi"y ...move... p [14:07] that v is nice [14:07] very nice [14:08] yea, you can use it all kinds of ways [14:08] vF. for instance helps visualize you're getting to the end of the line and not just to Mr. or something before hitting delete [14:09] sorry, vf. [14:09] F would go backwards [14:10] no more today! i have a post-it full of movement commands, and v to highlight what i'm working on [14:10] brousch: did you watch: http://lococast.net/archives/241 [14:11] make v your lesson of the week [14:11] practice a movement/two a week after that [14:11] i think i was crying after #2 [14:11] lol [14:11] well if i tape these movements to my monitor it will be faster to look at them than to arrow where i want to go [14:13] i have gg, G, :#, w, b, {, }, #|, 0, v [14:13] ^ is an important one [14:13] start of line? [14:14] though 0w is a decent alternative [14:14] isn't that the same as 0? [14:14] first no space char of a line [14:14] ah [14:14] so if indented 8 spaces it skips the spaces [14:14] useful for python [14:14] anything that's indented [14:15] right [14:26] ridiculous; http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/24/netherlands-judge-rules-that-samsung-galaxy-s-s-ii-violate-appl/ [14:28] "EP 2,058,868 - method of scrolling / browsing gallery;" is the violation ruled on [14:28] krondor: This is going to play out differently in every country. [14:29] insane [14:30] Can you imagine if Atari had patented parts of the Atari 2600? [14:30] ie: color cycling? [14:31] Or blitting on the Atari ST? [14:31] so that violation is on a stock google app (cooliris wrote the gallery app for google). Effectively means all android in the netherlands with the stock gallery app are in violation (could be banned). [14:37] looking at my captivate gallery app with my xoom app side by side.. I'm wondering why the judge said the samsung galaxy tab 10.1 didn't violate. This all seems so inconsistent to me. [14:38] insane [14:50] http://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/why-rakudo-needs-nqp.html <- What I read: Perl 6 sucks up it's own asshole. [14:52] yeah, imagine if double buffering was patented! [14:52] jrwren: I'm sure at some point it will be. [14:52] if it isn't already. [14:53] of course, you do NOT want to get graphics developers pissed off at you. :) [16:00] krondor: can we just burn all the software patents now? [16:04] Wolfger: I wish! It's such a mess. [16:12] "The earthquake triggered an automatic shutdown of a nuclear power plant less than 20 miles from the epicenter after it lost electricity." [16:12] ... [16:13] I thought the purpose of the power plant was to generate electricity [16:13] off the grid. [16:13] a nuke power plant can't generate E at low enough levels for just itself. [16:13] if it comes off grid it needs to shut down [16:14] I guess that makes sense. It just feels wrong. [16:15] "The device that produces our electricity shut down when it lost electricity" [16:17] Have I mentioned lately that MySQL is crap? [16:17] most large generators are like that. [16:17] manually changing columns from latin1 to utf8 [16:17] many can't start without electricity. [16:18] This is why we can't have perpetual motion machines. ;) [16:18] your car is like that. it generates electricity, but it cannot run or start without electricity [16:20] it needs electricity to start, and that makes sense [16:21] but once a car starts, it is self sustaining [16:21] you can yank the battery out (I don't recommend it) while it's running, and it will keep running [16:21] yup. [16:22] similarly I can understand that a nuclear reactor needs outside energy to start, but I kinda expect it to self-sustain once started [16:23] all the same, I'm glad that it fails safely in an earthquake :-) [16:50] Have I mentioned lately how much I fucking hate MySQL and unicode? [16:50] hah, it's a good life [16:51] Well, I managed to obliterate my entire OMC database with a UTF8 change. [16:51] Thank God for backups [16:59] https://secure.flickr.com/photos/sarah_milstein/6075362898/in/set-72157627416327276 [17:00] there you go, you must get some miles in while working today or you don't get your bonus [17:00] I've thought about putting one of those in [17:00] at least the standing desk partl [17:04] our accountant has a standing desk at his office [17:20] http://openmetalcast.com/2011/08/24/unicode-the-hard-way/ [17:23] awesome [17:24] "In all seriousness, I want Cyberkiller for the gentle prodding." [17:24] O:-) [17:36] brousch: Thanks. :) [17:37] Hah, he noticed it as well. :) [17:37] even if you did swing that way, i'm not sure someone with the name of cyberkiller is your type [17:37] how goes michigan these days? [17:38] nixternal: Missing nixternal. How are you? [17:38] ut, who woke nixternal? [17:38] ok i guess. how are you? [17:38] nixternal: Doing OK [17:38] Managed to lose our rockstars to Florida and California [17:38] i needed and still do need an irc break. this shit will kill productivity [17:38] who were your rockstars? [17:39] jcastro and greg-g [17:39] greg went to cali (san fran area i bet, stupid hipster) and jcastro to florida (because it is closer to his uncle fidel) [17:39] just a guess that is ^^ :) [17:40] nixternal: greg for Creative Commons, and jcastro because Jill is doing her residency there [17:40] where at in florida did jcastro go? [17:40] greg-g is a hippie, not a hipster [17:41] my cousin just moved down to the st. petes area and i will be heading down there quite a few times this winter to do some bike riding [17:41] nixternal: Boca raton (sp) [17:41] does jill work with old people or something? that is all there is in boca. that is where our condo is [17:43] http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110822/11242915616/side-show-oracle-google-patent-fight-are-apis-covered-copyright.shtml [17:43] nixternal: Not sure offhand. [17:44] cool man, glad to see everyone is doing ok. gotta head out for a bit but will be back on later probably. tell everyone i said hi and i miss then :) [17:44] them, not then [17:46] oh crap, work just sent around a "Social Media Policy" [17:48] you angered them with your tweets [17:48]