=== doko__ is now known as doko
AlecTaylorI'm looking for a FOSS Flash or Java project featuring "Click to call" functionality from the browser. Do you know of such a project?08:40
=== wet-chan is now known as wet
AlecTaylorI'm looking for a FOSS Flash or Java project featuring "Click to call" functionality from the browser. Do you know of such a project?12:32
=== Amaranthus is now known as Amaranth
nhandlerjussi:, tsimpson, elky: Meeting time?18:02
nhandlertopyli: ^18:02
topylii have jussi on the phone, i can be his proxy on oCean's matter if we get right to it18:04
* nhandler has some pretty bad lag right now18:04
* oCean looks18:04
topylii'll chair then if nobody minds18:04
nhandlerThanks topyli18:05
topylido we have quorum if jussi is not really here but on the phone with me?18:05
nhandlerI'm not quite sure. I don't think we have ever had this come up.18:06
topylii can't even use the bot anyway :)18:06
nhandlerI guess we could go with it and have jussi confirm in writing when he is back that things were relayed properly18:06
topyliyeah because how do you know i'm not putting words in his mouth?18:07
topyliwe can discuss and rubberstamp the decisions later18:07
nhandlerSounds good18:07
nhandlertopyli: Want to start the bot (you had a typo)18:07
topylioh yes18:08
meetingologyMeeting started Sun Aug 28 18:08:19 2011 UTC.  The chair is topyli. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.18:08
meetingologyUseful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.18:08
topyli#topic oCean's membership18:08
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: oCean's membership
meetingologyTOPIC: oCean's membership18:08
nhandleroCean: Care to introduce yourself?18:08
topylioCean: would you like to say sosmething first18:09
oCeanEh.. maybe. Let me try, I don't think I can tell anything you don't know already18:09
oCeanI'm quite new to IRC actually, 2 years ago I registered, I don't really remember why I had to come to #ubuntu, I think it was a wireless issue or something.18:10
oCeanThen I noticed how valuable the help was, and decided that I could help also. I have my years of linux usage, mostly as sys admin in an oracle world (forgive me) So I'm not really a desktop guy, but I can help where it comes to things like commandline, configuration of certain server software etc18:11
oCeanEarlier this year I applied for OP in #ubuntu, and no regrets yet.. I do like the community. There's lot's of value in it, more then most think.18:13
oCeanThe details are on the wiki page I think: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ocean18:13
nhandleroCean: You said you see the value in the community. Is there anything you would change in the IRC community?18:13
oCeanbe glad to answer questions about that18:13
topylii like the wiki page, you've put a lot of thought in there18:14
oCeannhandler: well, not really in the community, but for the #ubuntu channel itself.. many questions are asked over and over again.18:14
oCeanthat's why my page mentions a 'better faq'  though I have no idea exactly how to do that.18:15
oCeana while ago I gave this a little try on this site: http://www.somedom.com/  this is just to give a general idea18:15
nhandleroCean: The factoids are sort of used as an IRC FAQ. We also have the wiki for more detailed FAQ-type stuff18:16
jussiwoohoo, irc on phone.18:16
topylithe factoids depend on someone knowing them18:17
oCeantrue, this is somewhat the same as the factoids. But the wikiarticles are very comprehensive18:17
topylijussi: do you have backlog?18:17
jussibrb, gonna read oceans page. yes, backlog.18:17
oCeannhandler: I haven't figured it out completely, yet :)18:17
topylioCean: you haven't been around for too long, but you have made a rather visible impact on both support and recently as an op. do you think that the community will interest you as much in the future?18:19
* topyli is old, calls two years "not too long"18:21
oCeanthat's a fair question. I'm really a when-started-stick-to-it guy. The interest is genuine, and I try to convince others of the merits of this community.18:22
oCeanmeh, it's a tough question also :/18:22
topylii'm only asking because membership is not supposed to be a reward for the great work that you have undoubtedly done so far, but a commitment as well18:23
oCeanI understand. I have no problem with that whatsoever.18:24
topylicommitment is not the right word here though, we don't make wows or anything18:24
oCeanno, but I understand I think18:24
topylijussi, nhandler, i'm pretty much ready to vote. do you want to ask something else before that?18:25
jussiIm fine. the webpage is pretty comprehensive, and I have watched oceans actions for a while now.18:26
jussiso let's vote18:26
meetingologyCurrent voters:18:26
nhandlertopyli: I think you use that to specify a list of approved voters18:26
AlanBell#voters topyli jussi nhandler elky tsimpson18:26
AlanBelllike that18:27
topyliah right18:27
topyli#voters topyli jussi elky nhandler tsimpson18:27
meetingologyCurrent voters: elky jussi nhandler topyli tsimpson18:27
nhandlerAlanBell: Out of curiosity, what does #voters default to?18:27
topyli[VOTE] oCean's membership18:27
meetingologyPlease vote on: oCean's membership18:27
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)18:27
AlanBellnhandler: defaults to everyone18:28
meetingology+1 received from nhandler18:28
meetingology+1 received from topyli18:28
meetingology+1 received from jussi18:28
AlanBellnote it didn't listen to me18:28
meetingologyVoting ended on: oCean's membership18:28
meetingologyVotes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:018:28
meetingologyMotion carried18:28
topyliwelcome to teh funny farm oCean :)18:28
oCeanyay! And thanks!18:29
AlanBell\o/ oCean18:29
topyli[TOPIC] Make friends with eir18:29
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Make friends with eir
meetingologyTOPIC: Make friends with eir18:29
topyligreat wording AlanBell :)18:29
jussi+q to that18:29
AlanBellI posted some stuff on the extra page18:29
AlanBelleir seems to be down at the moment which is a shame18:31
jussiAlanBell: you put in the archived stuff :)18:31
AlanBelloops. At the bottom of the page people18:32
nhandlerI have no issue increasing the default expiration to 1 week. But if we do that, I think the default action should be to remove rather than nag. After 1 week, there really is no reason to keep the ban/quiet for most of the minor issues that we get. For repeat-offenders, the OP can adjust the expiration/action manulally18:32
AlanBellso I think the frequency is set to 11 minutes which is plain silly18:32
jussinhandler: AlanBell +118:32
topylii'm not the most technical person in the community and i haven't really played with the bots. i can only say i think nhandler and tsimpson's work has been positive here and i would not go and take it away. if there are issues, let's fix them18:33
topyli"remove eir" means "return to the previous problems"18:33
AlanBellone thing I am not sure about is putting the ubottu ban URL in the $reason of the eir ban18:33
Flanneltopyli: "remove eir until eir is fixed" was the original proposal.18:33
* nhandler isn't sure if the nag frequency is adjustable. It probably just happenes whenever eir runs through its checks18:34
jussiAlanBell: Im -1 on that.18:34
topyliFlannel: apologies, not trying to twist anyone's words18:34
nhandlerI think the extra work of adding the BT url compared to the extra effort involved to manually query ubottu with the banstring doesn't justify it18:34
Flanneltopyli: No worries.  It's just an important distinction.18:35
AlanBellnhandler: from my reading of the code it runs through its checks on the frequency tick18:35
Flanneltopyli: Most of the "no, we can't do that" reactions seem to think it is a "remove eir and scrap it forever" proposal, which it is not.18:35
topylii'm pretty sure there's a way to sanity here too :)18:36
AlanBell"(EXP) ban[27688] *!*@*.example.com was set on #ubuntu by jrib!~jrib@upstream/dev/jrib on 2011-08-26 03:11:23 with reason http://ubottu.com/bans.cgi?log=42635 and had an expiry date of 2011-08-28 03:11:23."18:36
AlanBellthat would be roughly what the nag messages look like if the reason was set with the ubottu ban URL18:36
jussiAlanBell: that would be nice if automated, horrible if not...18:36
AlanBellit is basically moving the effort from the end of the ban to the start of the ban18:37
nhandlerAutomating isn't the easiest. Especially if you want to preserve being able to set a real comment in eir and have it go to the BT18:37
AlanBelland making one person do it rather than multiple people do it18:37
nhandlerThat is a good point18:38
AlanBellI think it might be possible to contribute to freenode an enhancement to the describe_ban function in eir that goes and finds the ubottu link if it is in an ubottu channel18:39
nhandlerI doubt that freenode would implement that18:39
nhandlerWhat if we had ubottu pm a BT url after a ban/quiet is set? Then it is a simple copy/paste18:39
AlanBellthat sounds like a generally useful thing anyway18:40
nhandlerThat would probably be a fairly simple patch, and it would lend itself to other use-cases as well.18:40
jussiIf we could do that ubottu could of course just pm eir with the right syntax...18:40
jussior do both18:41
AlanBellso these are good ways to automate it later18:41
nhandlerjussi: That makes it hard for OPs to add real comments about the ban in the btset command18:41
m4vMy thought is that we should start working in BT2, instead of keep making this frankenstein, it will most likely take like one year or more to make it a reality, but we have to start at some point. Eir isn't going to fix the long times it takes the bantracker to load something.18:41
nhandlereir wasn't designed to solve that issue. It was designed to help with the banning and forgetting and the huge ban lists18:42
m4vnhandler: which turned out not to be as simple as originally hoped18:42
m4vis a lot of effort that could go into BT2 instead.18:43
jussiin anycase, it should be easy enough to get ubottu to pm hat url, as she already pms the ban number.18:43
* nhandler thought she stopped doing that for #ubuntu18:43
oCeanI think so too ^18:44
jussiyes, but the code still is there...18:44
AlanBellok, so that sounds like something that could be done very soon then18:45
nhandlerAlright, so in summary: 1) Have ubottu PM BT URLs to make it easy to copy/paste them into btset commands 2) Extend default expiration to 1 week 3) Change default action to auto-remove (ops can manually change this for repeat-offenders)18:45
AlanBellthen ops setting a ban will get a pm from the two bots, copy from one window to the other, done18:45
AlanBellnhandler: and frequency18:45
Flannelnhandler: That makes it even less optional than it is currenly.  I'm just going to point that out.18:46
nhandlerIt is also worth noting that in the next day or so (just dealing with a few remaining issues), all OPs should be able to adjust all bans18:46
Flannel(point #3)18:46
nhandlerFlannel: In what way?18:46
FlannelAlanBell: Actually btset needs to be done in -ops-monitor, not a PM, for ubottu to pick it up.18:46
Flannelnhandler: By automatically removing a ban I set, using eir is not optional for me.18:46
FlannelSorry, -ops-team18:47
nhandlerAlanBell: I'm still not sure if that can be changed on a per-channel basis easily, but I will check18:47
AlanBellFlannel: good point, but the principal stands18:47
nhandlerFlannel: If the ban hasn't been dealt with in a week and it isn't a repeat-offender, it should be removed.18:47
oCeanq: Has it been decided that eir is the way to go? I'm with m4v, to see if we really need eir, or is that out of the question?18:47
AlanBellnhandler: the frequency certainly can be changed per channel easily, I am just not quite 100% sure that is the thing the controls the nag repeating18:47
m4vIt might be worth to set ubottu to nag just before eir removes the ban18:47
nhandlerIdeally, the OP would have followed the ban up with a PM to discuss it, either resulting in the expiration time being adjusted or the ban being immediately removed18:48
Flannelnhandler: eir was originally advertised as being optional.  I bit my tongue for a while because it was supposed to be optional, so I didn't want to ruin the party for those who wish to use it.18:48
Flannelnhandler: Even when it was put into play last Monday, it was /still/ touted as being optional.  This is not optional.18:48
nhandlerThat depends on your definition of "optional".18:49
FlannelWell, judging by the wording of the email, "optional" meant "don't ever have to learn eir if you don't want to, and your experience will be the same"18:50
FlannelBecause automatically removing bans is a major shift in the way we've handled bans.  This moves from a "come get it taken care of in -ops" to a "wait it out" sort of policy.18:51
nhandlerYour experience will be the same if you deal with the bans in a timely manner. For repeat-offenders, youl would need to learn to use 1 new command18:51
FlannelI don't want bans to become time-outs.18:51
oCeanFlannel: +118:51
Flannelnhandler: So, for the record, this represents a shift in operator policy, to time-based bans.18:51
FlannelA shift which has not ever been discussed or broguht up, to the operator community.18:52
FlannelLet alone decided by the IRCC.18:52
AlanBellnhandler: so what is the btset command to change an individual ban to a nag rather than a remove?18:52
Flannel(As it seems that this is an unknown side-effect to using eir, not a conscious decision)18:52
FlannelAlanBell: remove/ban is the symbol prefix to the duration18:53
topylii agree with Flannel that we advertised it as optional when it really isn't after all18:53
nhandlerFlannel: A user might get unbanned by eir once, but after that, if they get banned for the same thing again, I would assume that the operator would make some effort to talk to the user and extend the expiration time if they can't18:55
Flannelnhandler: And what makes you think that they /wont/ get banned for the same thing again? Considering there was no check that they even understood why they were banned in the first place?18:56
FlannelTheir ban gets removed (after a week), they wander back in none the wiser18:56
* AlanBell thinks changing the default action is deserving of a full agenda item in the next meeting18:57
FlannelWe get users always asking "so, how long is my ban?", they see bans as a time out/punishment.18:57
nhandlerFlannel: So use the ban message or a PM to talk to the user and explain the problem if you think they don't understand. Take the active position rather than waiting for them to come to -ops.18:58
nhandlerBeing an OP is about more than just setting a +b and waiting for the user to come to -ops18:58
Flannelnhandler: So, you're proposing that we take an active position in being an operator.  Which is fine and good, except how is this different than simply saying "take an active position in commenting and removing your bans"?18:58
Flannelnhandler: Also, often the user cannot be dealt with at the time (theyre still angry/etc).  And simply having operators 'check if the user is around' randomly for a while isn't sustainable.18:59
topylijussi called, his internet just tried. he'll try to get back online18:59
AlanBellso this is an interesting discussion, but what I wanted to do in this agenda item was propose some simple and uncontroversial changes which will make people happier with eir and each other19:00
AlanBellI don't think changing the default action falls into that category19:00
nhandlerWhether or not they are angry, that doesn't stop someone from sending a PM explain the specific rule that they broke and why it is wrong. They might not be able to agree right then and there, but they will still have been informed for next time19:00
topylithe thing is, we have to remove old bans anyway, and we're not doing it. eir makes this easier. how is this a bad thing?19:01
Flanneltopyli: Again, it's a change in policy to time-based bans.19:02
FlannelAnd it forces people to use eir if they want to opt out of that (and opting out used to be the default way we functioned)19:02
topylialright. so let's document it so it's not a bug :)19:02
AlanBellwe also have a bunch of other channels to test stuff on19:03
Flanneltopyli: and the fact that we didn't even know that eir was going to modify our behavors and policies this way until we tried it does not bode well.19:03
AlanBellwe could put eir in the other core channels and try auto-expire there first before unleashing it on #ubuntu19:03
topyliAlanBell: tsimpson invited people to test eir on a channel way back, but nobody helped19:03
topyliFlannel: our policy was never to have hundreds of stale bans nobody even remembers about19:04
AlanBelltesting live is the way pros do it :)19:04
Flanneltopyli: Which is why we clean ban.  I don't think that concentrating this effort to a particular period of time is a horrible thing.  Some could argue its more efficient.19:05
AlanBellanyhow, I would like to have a set of actions agreed that can be implemented straight away19:05
Flanneltopyli: But if we wanted to set a default length of time for bans, fine, we should consciously have that conversation.  We shouldn't just say "surprise! eir makes your bans go away!"19:06
nhandlerWe didn't19:06
Flannelnhandler: Sure you did.19:06
nhandlereir has been discussed for several months now. Some people chose not to pay attention to the discussions19:06
Flannelnhandler: No, eir was presented as optional.  That means if I don't want to use it, I don't need to know about it.19:07
FlannelFrom the email last Monday (when eir was put into place):19:07
Flannel"The use of eir is just another option available, it’s use is not required to continue managing #ubuntu, though we do encourage everyone to try eir out."19:07
FlannelWhere in that statement does it say "if you don't interface with eir, your bans will disappear"19:07
Flannel(that comes from https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2011-August/001346.html )19:08
topylithere probably is a communication failure there. frankly, i don't think eir is exactly optional for #ubuntu ops19:09
m4vfor making it optional eir shouldn't take no default action19:09
FlannelLike I said, this amounts a policy change, and one that comes across as us not being fully aware of how eir works when we put it into action.19:09
topylieir's functionality was well communicated well in time19:10
m4vdouble negative, I mean, it should take no action unless told so19:10
topylieven i understood most of it!19:10
topyliso. we have to finish the meeting soon. what can we conclude on this issue?19:11
Flanneltopyli: and I fully admit that as soon as I heard 'optional', I stopped paying attention.  It was naivety on my part.  But that doesn't change the facts.19:11
topylithat it is still an issue and everyone disagrees?19:11
AlanBelltopyli: I would propose that right now we don't change the default action, but start a discussion about doing so on the mailing list and add an agenda item to the next meeting19:12
m4vif it removes your bans, or if it nags you to no end. is not optional19:12
AlanBelland right now we agree to change the frequency, default duration of eir when it comes back19:13
AlanBelland communicate with the ops that it would be a good idea to put the ubottu URL in the eir reason19:13
nhandlerI don't necessarily agree about changing the default expiration right now, but I can look into the nag-frequency19:13
nhandlerThe ubottu url feature we can work on19:13
AlanBelland investigate automating the reason population with the ubottu url19:13
AlanBellops can manually do that right now if they want to19:14
oCeanSo the motion to suspend air is off the table?19:14
AlanBellthere was no such motion19:14
oCeanAlanBell: on the ML there was19:14
AlanBellsorry, yes there was, but not raised by me in this agenda item19:14
m4voCean: for that, I did like to have tsimpson's input, since he's the one coding right now (i'm busy with the factoid plugin) he isn't here I'm afraid.19:15
AlanBellok, so defer the default duration and the default action to the next meeting19:15
AlanBellis the default duration 24 or 48 hours right now?19:15
Flannel48h, with 11 minute nag frequency.19:16
nhandlerSo can we conclude this meeting now?19:17
AlanBelldo you want to put things in #agreed or #action?19:18
topylii'd like to not make any #action but just #agree that we continue the discussion on the mailing list and -ops-team19:19
topylinhandler: what say you? jussi is again internetless, i have him on the phone :)19:20
topyli[AGREED] eir discussion will continu until bukkit returns19:21
nhandlertopyli: We could probably action or agree the looking into the nag frequency and getting ubottu to show BT urls19:21
topylinhandler: that's right.19:21
topyliwould you like to action that? jussi would also agree with extending the default frequency19:22
topyli(we'll get his confirmation later)19:22
topyli(or not :)19:23
nhandlerFeel free to give me the actions to look into them. tsimpson would probably need to actually implement the ubottu thing though19:23
=== SWAT___ is now known as SWAT
topyli[ACTION] nhandler to look into extending eir nag frequency and getting ubottu to show BT urls, with assistance from tsimpson19:24
meetingologyACTION: nhandler to look into extending eir nag frequency and getting ubottu to show BT urls, with assistance from tsimpson19:24
topyliare there any other issues? new bugs?19:24
* topyli looks19:25
topylino new ones, just the one about guidelines being too #ubuntu-centric19:26
topylii think it was in good progress, but has since somewhat gone stale19:26
topyliis anyone working on that?19:26
topyliwell, let's just19:28
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology is the new Mootbot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot
meetingologyMeeting ended Sun Aug 28 19:28:11 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot . (v 0.1.4)19:28
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-08-28-18.08.moin.txt19:28
topylii'll do the post-meeting tasks tomorrow19:28
nhandlerThanks for chairing topyli19:28
topylicheers. and thanks all for the constructive and non-flamy discussion on the eir thing19:29
oCeanalso thanks for the oCean thingy :)19:29
AlanBellthanks all19:30

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