[00:07] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Alan Bell] The science of meetings - http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/09/01/the-science-of-meetings/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-science-of-meetings
[07:18] <DJones> Morning all
[07:20] <daubers> Morning
[07:33] <diplo> Morning all
[07:41] <AlanBell> morning peeps
[07:42] <TheOpenSourcerer> morning and good day :-)
[07:47] <daubers> o/
[07:53] <MooDoo> hello all
[07:54] <Hippychick> morning
[07:55] <MartijnVdS> \o
[08:04] <bigcalm> Morning peeps :)
[08:14] <bigcalm> Version 6 of FF?
[08:15]  * bigcalm kicks Moz
[08:16] <JamesTait> Good morning!
[08:18] <Lcawte> Old news... :P
[08:22] <oimon> kernel.org hacked?
[08:22] <dwatkins> I suspect they're trying to race up to version 2010.
[08:23] <jpds> oimon: Cracked, thank you
[08:23] <oimon> dwatkins: MS would be on version 2013 to make it sound modern
[08:23] <oimon> jpds: hacked every day :D
[08:24] <MooDoo> cracked cracked cracked, for all that is holy, cracked.....:)
[08:25] <oimon> let's compromise on "compromised "
[08:25] <oimon> :)
[08:26] <MooDoo> accepted :)
[08:52] <bigcalm> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE5PGeh2K9k
[08:54] <DJones> bigcalm: I hope that video doesn't involve you & tutu's after your twitter status
[08:54] <bigcalm> Hehe :P
[08:55] <bigcalm> No, you're safe
[08:56]  * DJones clicks link then
[08:57] <DJones> That looks like something for daubers to make to go with his electronic door bell
[08:58] <HazRPG> goooooooood mornin' ma IT ninjas!
[09:02] <oimon> hmmm. if my wife says that she told me something, but i have no recollection of it, i wonder what's more likely. (1) she never told me (2) i wasn't listening (3) 1 & 2 probably occur in roughly equal amounts
[09:03] <AlanBell> doesn't matter in the end, it will be your fault
[09:03] <oimon> seems to be , yes
[09:03] <oimon> why is that?
[09:03] <freakyclown> (1) always happened..its your fault for not hearing her thoughts
[09:03] <MooDoo> oimon: women are always right, even when they are wrong they are right, have you not learnt this yet?
[09:04] <AlanBell> one of life's mysteries
[09:04] <oimon> seems a bit unfair to me
[09:04] <AlanBell> anyhow, this happy hour thing in London
[09:04] <oimon> when did a man ever get in a sulk about anything (other than dropping a phone down teh toilet)
[09:04] <oimon> or losing a game of sport
[09:04] <AlanBell> ^^ right there
[09:05] <AlanBell> so, London, pub in a few weeks
[09:05] <AlanBell> it was kind of penciled in for Saturday 17th, however I am not sure about that
[09:05] <AlanBell> should it be more of a mid-week after work thing?
[09:06] <christel> no, come visit me at spire clare park on the 17th instead
[09:07] <christel> you can bring beer
[09:07]  * christel nods
[09:07] <BigRedS> I'd like it to be a weekend thing, 'cause I'm only in London at the weekend :)
[09:07] <BigRedS> but I'm not on that weekend, so that's moot...
[09:07] <AlanBell> okies, pick a weekend
[09:07] <AlanBell> christel: that isn't a pub!
[09:08] <christel> well, we can turn it into a pub for the day
[09:08] <bigcalm> :D
[09:08] <christel> ill wake up from surgery and you can all be drunk and entertain me
[09:08] <AlanBell> :)
[09:08] <christel> it would be brilliant!
[09:08] <AlanBell> sounds great
[09:08] <christel> \o/
[09:09] <bigcalm> christel: while you're high on pills? :)
[09:09] <christel> i asked gareth if he'd bring david up when i came out of surgery, and he's all "no, we'll be watching soccer saturday"
[09:09] <christel> "thanks"
[09:09] <AlanBell> wrong answer /o\
[09:10] <daubers> \o/ bikes mended
[09:10] <oimon> there must be an easier way of making changes to puppet config..this is scary :(
[09:10] <christel> bigcalm: whenever am i not? :P
[09:11] <Dave2> oimon: manage it with puppet.
[09:11] <HazRPG> oimon: agrees with others, women are always right... no ifs or buts about it... they'll be right regardless...
[09:11] <oimon> i'm scared that a mistake would get sent to all puppet clients
[09:12] <Dave2> We had our dev systems...accidentally pick up some production puppet config. We couldn't log in to our test systems any more. That was fun.
[09:12] <HazRPG> oimon: for me, it really sucks, because I've been known to talk in my sleep sometimes (even if I look away and conscious...) and some of my ex's have used that to their advantage (sadly)... and thing is, I don't know if they actually are using it to their advantage - since I don't recall any sleep-based conversations at all!
[09:13] <oimon> i usually just say om nom nom nom in my sleep
[09:16] <Hippychick> my brother used to talk in his sleep, i recall one time him going on about being a girl or somthing...
[09:16] <Hippychick> the hotel had made a mistake with the rooms and we had to share... :(
[09:17] <freakyclown> Hippychick: go read sleeptalkingman
[09:17] <freakyclown> or rather listen to rather than read
[09:22] <daubers> AlanBell: Septembers not great for me (had to pay for lots of car/bike stuff :( ) but if this one is this month, I shall make a concerted effort to make the next one
[09:24] <AlanBell> the idea is that they will bounce about all over the place, so missing one is fine, there will  be more
[09:26] <HazRPG> I'm really intrigued by the news of what happened to kernel.org
[09:26] <AlanBell> how about 3 weeks today, 22nd September
[09:27] <diplo> HazRPG: Seems some one got some ones credentials and went from there
[09:27] <diplo> I doubt until they find/fix any issues will they release full details
[09:27] <AlanBell> a Thursday evening post-work pub meet in London
[09:27] <MooDoo> HazRPG: there is site news on the site now if you've not seen it
[09:27] <AlanBell> pretty near to Millbank
[09:28] <HazRPG> Hippychick: worst thing is, I can physically move around sometimes and do things and completely forget when I wake up properly - its freaky
[09:28] <HazRPG> doesn't happen often, buts its scary that it happens at all
[09:28] <freakyclown> HazRPG: my g/f is like that..will seem to be awake and alert and can converse
[09:28] <freakyclown> but its generally about jibberish
[09:28] <HazRPG> MooDoo: yeah I was reading it ^_^
[09:28] <freakyclown> like rats or spiders
[09:28] <HazRPG> MooDoo: but I want to know how they actually got in, more than what they did
[09:28] <MooDoo> ah
[09:28] <AlanBell> so the Canonical peeps have a few weeks to arange an important reason to visit HQ that happens to be on the 22nd
[09:29] <oimon> HazRPG: i read it was via a compromised account, then an unknown root hack
[09:29] <HazRPG> freakyclown: heh, interesting ^_^
[09:29] <oimon> freakyclown: my wife does the spiders thing
[09:29] <oimon> and thinks she sees them in the room. we have to turn on lights etc
[09:30] <freakyclown> yeah same thing
[09:30] <freakyclown> i think its eyelashes or something they see
[09:30] <oimon> freakyclown: it's imaginary :D
[09:30] <freakyclown> that or their fricken mental
[09:30] <HazRPG> my ex (still great friends - one that got away, bla bla bla), just as she nods off... she'll talk gibberish too
[09:30] <oimon> does your gf have dyslexia or chronic fatigue?
[09:30] <freakyclown> nope
[09:30] <oimon> ok just checking
[09:30] <freakyclown> shes just batshit crazy
[09:31] <oimon> i always jump up and say there,there, it's ok..no spiders etc
[09:31] <HazRPG> oimon: ^_^
[09:31] <oimon> but i couldn't ever live in australia, because i'd be the one jumping up
[09:31] <oimon> because there really MIGHT be spiders
[09:32] <HazRPG> oimon: esp, if it was a black widow!
[09:32] <freakyclown> im always tempted to just roll with it and start screaming and going "omg spiders their all over me aggghhh" and run out the room
[09:32] <HazRPG> oimon: that would scare the living crap out of me!
[09:32] <oimon> or the red back ..teeny weeny thing that kills you
[09:32] <diplo> Dont want to live at my house, loads of spiders!
[09:32] <HazRPG> oimon: yeah, sorry that was the one that I meant
[09:32] <oimon> i learnt about it on Home and Away lol
[09:33] <freakyclown> its the stingrays you want to look out for!
[09:33] <oimon> i'm staying in UK
[09:33] <HazRPG> heh
[09:33] <freakyclown> sneaking into your bed
[09:33] <oimon> it would turn me OCD...checking shoes every 5 seconds
[09:33] <HazRPG> you you really want to get scared of spiders, live in saudi... those things are friggin' huge!
[09:33] <HazRPG> if you*
[09:34] <freakyclown> ahah those sand spiders?
[09:34] <oimon> ewww
[09:34] <HazRPG> desert spiders
[09:34] <HazRPG> yeahs
[09:34] <HazRPG> big scary mf's!
[09:34] <oimon> just about to rollout my new SL6.1 distro :D
[09:34] <freakyclown> same as coconut crabs
[09:34]  * AlanBell suggests moving this to #ubuntu-spiders
[09:34] <HazRPG> make anyone poop themselves!
[09:34] <freakyclown> those are friggen HUGE
[09:34] <bigcalm> :(
[09:35] <HazRPG> freakyclown: haha, did you google them?
[09:35] <freakyclown> ?
[09:35] <HazRPG> desert spiders
[09:35] <freakyclown> nah i knew of them already
[09:36]  * bigcalm does some work until the talk of spiders has gone away
[09:36] <freakyclown> there was a great forced perspective photo of a camel spiders in iraq
[09:36] <freakyclown> made them look about 3 foot wide
[09:37]  * DJones hands bigcalm a rolled up newspaper
[09:37] <freakyclown> http://www.camelspiders.net/large-camel-spider-picture.htm
[09:37] <oimon> with a flame thrower
[09:37] <oimon> too many legs surely?
[09:38] <oimon> or is that 2 of them?
[09:38] <freakyclown> thats two of them
[09:38] <oimon> ewwwww
[09:38] <HazRPG> heh: http://youtu.be/_k5j6IuHGxA?t=1m
[09:38]  * oimon hides until spiders have gone
[09:39] <HazRPG> I think those boys had way too much fun out there ^_^
[09:39] <oimon> this isn't helpful
[09:40] <HazRPG> heh, I think we've freaked too many people out with the spider talk ^_^
[09:40] <DJones> Spider talk has upset freenode
[09:40] <gord> so not "camel spider attacks infant" like my firefox tab said then
[09:40] <gord> disappointing
[09:41] <HazRPG> http://spiderman-web.com/spiderman/wallpaper/80s_spiderman/spidey.jpg
[09:41] <HazRPG> there, that's a friendly spider ^_^
[10:01] <AlanBell> http://ubuntu-uk.org/2011/09/01/ubuntu-uk-happy-hour/
[10:02] <AlanBell> could some people proof read that please
[10:02] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:04] <BigRedS> AlanBell: "its up to you." at the end of the first para should be "it's"
[10:04] <freakyclown> AlanBell: looks good but maybe say something about how its more of a social meet and greet (to put faces to names) rather than a techy geek fest with laptops and talks?
[10:04] <jml> hey, sorry if this is off topic
[10:04] <BigRedS> AlanBell: the Cask is in Pimlico, not Pimplico
[10:04] <jml> but my laptop isn't suspending reliably in oneiric any more. how can I report this usefully?
[10:04] <BigRedS> but I might start calling it pimplico :)
[10:04] <jml> BigRedS: *yes*
[10:04] <AlanBell> lol,
[10:05] <bigcalm> My machine has recently started rebooting instead of shutting down, sleeping or hibernating :S
[10:09] <DJones> jml: Might be worth asking in #ubuntu+1 with it being a omeiric query, as the testing version support channel, there may already be a solution that they're aware of, at least they should be able to help you diagnose it
[10:11] <jml> DJones: OK. Will try that.
[10:11] <jml> DJones: I've historically had poor luck there, though.
[10:11] <DJones> jml: Its quite often quiet, but once it gets going they're very helpful, if you don't get an answer there, come back here though and ask
[10:11] <jml> DJones: will do.
[10:12] <DJones> I haven't tried it yet, so I'd be no help :)
[10:13]  * MooDoo is getting sick of people asking him if he's irish....FFS it's only an old style ireland rugger top :S
[10:14] <daubers> MooDoo: They'll generally ask twice, to be sure to be sure
[10:14] <MooDoo> lol
[10:14]  * daubers gets his coat
[10:14] <bigcalm> daubers: heheh :)
[10:14] <Hippychick> MooDoo, are you irish? *run, hide*
[10:14] <MooDoo> grrrrrrrrrrr
[10:15] <MooDoo> god i hope czajkowski isn't here ;)
[10:15] <bigcalm> She's just returned to London, so you're safe until she reads the scroll
[10:15] <MooDoo> phew
[10:16]  * AlanBell tweets and facebooks and plusses the happy hour
[10:17]  * daubers retweets and replusses
[10:18] <Hippychick> i like the sound of the happy hour stuff, i just dont know of any good pubs near me
[10:18] <daubers> Hippychick: Spoons'll do
[10:18] <daubers> Hippychick: Or a nice-ish restaurant
[10:19] <AlanBell> Hippychick: where is near you?
[10:19] <Hippychick> maidstone, kent
[10:19] <Hippychick> not long moved there, so not sure whats about
[10:19] <freakyclown> arrange a chunnel lug!
[10:20] <AlanBell> well we have Canterbury on the list
[10:20] <AlanBell> and Maidstone into London isn't much of a stretch
[10:20] <freakyclown> back when i was a kid we used to have london2600 hacker meets on the circle line train with battery powered hubs etc
[10:20] <freakyclown> train meets can be fun :)
[10:20] <AlanBell> can't drink on the tube any more
[10:21] <AlanBell> however I do want to put a RAT on the list
[10:21] <Hippychick> yeah, my biggest problem at the moment is work, takes me and hour-hour and a half to get home at the moment
[10:21] <AlanBell> http://www.watercressline.co.uk/Our-Services/RAT
[10:22] <daubers> That was quite enjoyable last time
[10:23] <AlanBell> when they open up tickets for next year I will propose a date to add to the happy hour schedule
[10:25] <daubers> \o/
[10:26] <AlanBell> http://twitter.com/#!/CASK_PUB_SW1/status/109210019987333120
[10:26] <HazRPG> hmm, don't know if I like this news: http://torrentfreak.com/government-bans-use-of-encryption-and-vpns-110831/
[10:26] <bigcalm> Which gov?
[10:27] <MartijnVdS> Pakistan
[10:27] <bigcalm> :(
[10:27] <bigcalm> Good luck enforcing that
[10:27] <AlanBell> heh, can't see that lasting long
[10:27] <AlanBell> dear ISPs, have any of your customers made an HTTPS connection to any website . . .
[10:27] <bigcalm> And the gov are to be completely unencrypted as well eh?
[10:28] <bigcalm> AlanBell: could redirect all port 443 traffic to 80 at an ISP level
[10:28] <MooDoo> sounds a good idea.....anyone want my bank details now?
[10:29] <freakyclown> tbh most governments just put a man in the middle box and spoof the secure parts
[10:29] <oimon> sounds like they've been reading cory doctorow's little brother book
[10:30] <freakyclown> i attended a talk by a er.. let call him a rebel..and how he and his friends circumvented such things..very very scary stuff
[10:30] <bigcalm> freakyclown: your talk was scary stuff itself :P
[10:31] <freakyclown> bigcalm: you should hear the stuff i cant talk about :P
[10:31] <oimon> freakyclown: i watched your rather decent talk yesterday. can you elaborate on that cropped image example? i didn't get it
[10:31] <bigcalm> oimon: which bit?
[10:31] <HazRPG> oimon: I liked that book ^_^, was an interesting read to say the least
[10:32] <AlanBell> the thumbnail of the original in the cropped image file
[10:32] <oimon> when he showed a cropped image and then said lots of info was stored in the jpg, then showed the full size image
[10:32] <oimon> where did the full size one come from
[10:32] <BigRedS> oimon: it's thethumbnail
[10:32] <bigcalm> I tried to explain, to my better half, the use of looking at the red/green direction to see where a bit of the image was copied from.
[10:33] <AlanBell> chromatic abberation was amazing
[10:33] <HazRPG> bigcalm: I'm sure the government will still be using secure connections, in the article it states "Anyone wishing to carry on using them must get official permission." - so I'm sure the government will easily be exempt from this ban.
[10:33] <bigcalm> Thank you, couldn't think of the word
[10:34] <oimon> sorry , i'm being dumb re: the thumbnail, still don't get it
[10:34] <HazRPG> freakyclown: which talk did you do?
[10:34] <AlanBell> oimon: the camera saves the picture and the thumbnail. The software that does the cropping updates the image but fails to update the thumbnail because it is buggy
[10:34] <oimon> oic
[10:34] <AlanBell> so the thumbnail of the full image remains untouched and forgotten about
[10:34] <oimon> saved inside the jpeg?
[10:34] <bigcalm> I like that everybody but freakyclown is answering oimon's question which was directed at freakyclown :)
[10:35] <bigcalm> Yes
[10:35] <BigRedS> I've been pondering ways of fooling exactly that. Using freakyclown's other scripts to find alternative original images, and putting thumbnails of *those* in
[10:35] <oimon> what's the sw called again? cli_track?
[10:36] <HazRPG> am I missing something here o.O?
[10:36] <freakyclown> wtf i step away for two minutes to talk about firewall configs and im ACTUALLY needed!
[10:36] <freakyclown> CliTrack btw
[10:36] <freakyclown> and yes @ thumbnail stuff
[10:36] <oimon> ftw :P
[10:36] <freakyclown> and no its not released (yet)
[10:36] <oimon> by all accounts it was one of the best talks of the weekend
[10:36] <freakyclown> and it was Digital Image Forensics (2)
[10:36] <freakyclown> thank you :)
[10:37] <bigcalm> HazRPG: https://blip.tv/episode/5487612
[10:37] <oimon> i was in another talk at the time and twitter was lit up
[10:37] <freakyclown> :D
[10:37] <oimon> i reckon you could do a 2 hr session with all that material
[10:38] <freakyclown> oddly i keep getting asked to do a talk on lockpicking next year... far far too many people saw that slide
[10:38] <freakyclown> and ive done image forensics stuff for two oggcamps now - need to change it up ithink
[10:38] <oimon> lol, i'm sure lockpicking is on a need to know basis and that's why we pay locksmiths
[10:39] <freakyclown> nah its a massive thing for hobbiests
[10:39] <freakyclown> i was asked to run a workshop this week on it for a security conference in london - but alas work gets in the way sometimes
[10:40] <freakyclown> a talk at oggcamp might kick me back into writing more of my book too :(
[10:40] <oimon> "how to stalk women on the internet"?
[10:40] <freakyclown> oimon: ive covered that twice now ;)
[10:41] <freakyclown> people are learning from it and not posting pictures online
[10:41] <MartijnVdS> .. for dummies?
[10:41] <MartijnVdS> :P
[10:41] <bigcalm> freakyclown: have you contacted the lady in the USA that you used in your recent talk at oggcamp?
[10:41] <freakyclown> hannah?
[10:41] <bigcalm> If that was her name, yes :)
[10:42] <freakyclown> ithink i mentioned in sundays talk ;)
[10:42] <oimon> was the sunday talk the same one?
[10:42] <freakyclown> yeah
[10:42] <bigcalm> I attended Saturday's talk
[10:42] <freakyclown> yet people still came to see it again!
[10:42] <freakyclown> crazy!
[10:42] <oimon> i attended a couple of duff ones on sat
[10:42] <oimon> and also good ones :D
[10:42] <freakyclown> i attended mine...it sucked LOL
[10:43] <oimon> u had heard it before? :P
[10:43] <freakyclown> yeah so obvious where it was going too!
[10:45] <oimon> the location data is on;y put in if that option is selected on your phone though,right?
[10:46] <freakyclown> alot are on by default though
[10:47] <MartijnVdS> freakyclown: alot? http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
[10:49]  * bigcalm grins
[10:49] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: I was thinking the same but held my tongue for a change :P
[10:50] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: :)
[10:50] <bigcalm> Looks like the drawing style of the Oatmeal
[10:53] <HazRPG> bigcalm: cheers :)
[10:53] <HazRPG> freakyclown: haha love your intro ^_^
[10:59] <bigcalm> Gah, nearly lunch time. This week has slipped away from me
[11:00] <Hippychick> bigcalm, luckey you, i keep thinig its friday then realising its not... :(
[11:01] <daubers> Hippychick: That's a good thing :( I've got about a weeks work to do in the next 3 days
[11:01] <AlanBell> MartijnVdS: she got the vivitar camcorder in the end, preferred the shape to hold
[11:03] <Hippychick> daubers, ive got 55 support jobs which are suppost to be closed by end of day tomorrow
[11:03] <Hippychick> somehow i dont think its going to happen
[11:03] <czajkowski> MooDoo: I will throttle you
[11:04] <bigcalm> czajkowski: welcome back :)
[11:04] <czajkowski> cheers
[11:05] <MooDoo> czajkowski: oh how i've missed you xx
[11:05] <AlanBell> o/ czajkowski
[11:05] <AlanBell> moved the happy hour
[11:07] <ubuntuuk-planet> [AlanBell] Ubuntu-UK Happy Hour - http://ubuntu-uk.org/2011/09/01/ubuntu-uk-happy-hour/
[11:12] <AlanBell> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1257/detail/
[11:18] <HazRPG> freakyclown: haha, love the talk dude ^_^
[11:20] <freakyclown> thank you :)
[11:21] <HazRPG> most epic I must say :)
[11:22] <HazRPG> great work with the tool too, I do like forensics... kept meaning to do some work with jpeg's myself, because the number of people that don't realise how flawed it is... is unreal!
[11:22] <brobostigon> afternoonings HazRPG :)
[11:22] <HazRPG> brobostigon: afternoon squire ^_^
[11:23] <freakyclown> right i have to go break into a building - will chat later HazRPG
[11:23] <HazRPG> o.O
[11:24] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: ah, that's an important thing to consider as well :)
[11:24] <HazRPG> sure, gl;hf dude
[11:24] <freakyclown> lol dont worry its my job!
[11:24] <HazRPG> freakyclown: I figured ;)
[11:24] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: "lf;dy"? :)
[11:24] <HazRPG> gl;hf - good luck, have fun
[11:24] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: what's lf;dy?
[11:24] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: live fast, die young :)
[11:24] <HazRPG> ah
[11:25] <MooDoo> go straight ahead very fast, if anything gets in your way....TURN!
[11:25] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1037927
[11:30] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: heh
[11:32] <oimon> ooh oneiric beta1 out today innit?
[11:32] <AlanBell> yup
[11:32] <HazRPG> oimon: I think so yeah
[11:33]  * oimon updates
[11:33] <HazRPG> hmm, that brings me to... what's happening with the release of oneiric?
[11:33] <HazRPG> as in, release party wise
[11:33] <MartijnVdS> Lots of booze?
[11:34] <HazRPG> aside from that :P
[11:34] <HazRPG> time/location/etc
[11:34] <HazRPG> (would like to attend some sort of open-sourced thing before I decide to move off to Egypt)
[11:35] <MartijnVdS> ah, they don't have booze there, do they? :)
[11:35] <brobostigon> HazRPG: i was thinking about a release party, but, i feel somewhat discouraged.
[11:35] <andylockran> pft
[11:35] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: heh, they do... but its more of a black hole for things open-source there ^_^
[11:35] <andylockran> DDoS Mitigation Strategies !FTW
[11:35] <AlanBell> HazRPG: there will be one in London as per usual
[11:36] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: Start up your own open-source lab there :)
[11:36] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: Trust me, that is part of the plan ;)
[11:36] <AlanBell> which will be the normal Canonical nominate a pub at the last minute and some people turn up kind of thing
[11:36] <HazRPG> I know there's already a hackerspace in Cairo... so that should ease things a bit :)
[11:37] <HazRPG> part of my "moving to egypt" plan, is to try and get open-source more wide-spread there
[11:37] <AlanBell> we could do a separate event when the CDs arrive
[11:38] <AlanBell> some other teams distribute *all* their CD allocation within a week
[11:38] <HazRPG> most of the IT people I know from Egypt, generally associate Linux and things open-source as being "research" based and "scary looking" just because that's what they used for uni-based stuff
[11:38] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: but it IS scary-looking :)
[11:39] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: If you've ever looked at research codebases, yes this is correct! And this is what the IT guys over there seem to associate with open-source, because that's what they've used/seen... they don't seem to realise the other stuff that happens around them
[11:40] <HazRPG> e.g. there's this one lass I know out there, that prefers Windows to Linux because she constantly had to fight with trying to compile the codebase they had... so she hates linux for that reason alone...
[11:41] <HazRPG> I tried to show her some videos of my desktop, and she didn't seem to believe that was actually a linux-based distro that I was using
[11:41] <HazRPG> so plan is: get some open-source support going :)
[11:42] <MartijnVdS> didn't you convert  your family to Linux? :)
[11:42] <HazRPG> business plan: introduce and teach people about IT, get some open-source awareness out there... and see what happens. That's my aim :)
[11:42] <andylockran> and target the government too
[11:42] <andylockran> fresh govt, fresh ideas
[11:42] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: I've converted my aunt to ubuntu, so yeah... the rest are interested, but too scare to covert because they think it will be too hard to learn
[11:43] <HazRPG> andylockran: hopefully :)
[11:43] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: to be honest I don't blame them... my arabic reading skills are poor at best, however the translation for ubuntu is just awful!
[11:44] <HazRPG> My aunt is really good at both English & Arabic... and she teaches Music and some IT stuff in a school... which is why she was easy to convert... however she found it odd the way Ubuntu translates some of the stuff in the O/S
[11:45] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: time to brush up on  your arabic, and improve the translations
[11:45] <HazRPG> Compared to the English version of Ubuntu, the Arabic one seems to be wayyyyy too formal
[11:45] <HazRPG> And sort of incomplete in places...
[11:46] <HazRPG> (me and my aunt was going through some of the translation scripts on launchpad)
[11:46] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: Hopefully. :)
[11:46] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: Either alone, or with some help from my Aunt. :)
[11:47] <oimon> postie just delivered my touchpad case and the new issue of linux magazine :) happy days
[11:47] <HazRPG> Much like how there's a few different English localisations... I want to see if I can get an Egyptian Arabic one... since they're terminology for stuff is so different to traditional arabic, which is what Ubuntu uses for the Arabic stuff
[11:51] <HazRPG> wow, seems only 25% of ubuntu is translated
[11:51] <HazRPG> oimon: nice :)
[11:53] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: Perfect example of bad translation: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+source/gfxboot-theme-ubuntu/+pots/bootloader/ar/+translate
[11:53] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: I can't read Arabic at all
[11:53] <HazRPG> OK has been translated to "Hasna" which means "Well"
[11:54] <HazRPG> the suggestions are much better, and are common in both Mac and Windows
[11:54] <oimon> hasna in scottish means "has not"
[11:54] <HazRPG> e.g. first one "na'am" which means "yes" or "okay" depending on context
[11:55] <HazRPG> oimon: I know :P
[11:55] <MartijnVdS> HazRPG: "If you must", in British English?
[11:56] <HazRPG> 2nd suggestion: "Muafa'" or "Muafak" (depending on dialect, Egyptians don't pounce the "Kof" letter): means "in agreement" or "okay" again depending on context - which I think is what Windows uses
[11:56] <HazRPG> just because "Na'am" is more used as "Yes"
[11:57]  * czajkowski wallops TheOpenSourcerer 
[11:57] <TheOpenSourcerer> Afternoon czajkowski :-)
[11:57] <TheOpenSourcerer> How was the salmon ;-)
[11:57] <oimon> maybe shouldn't have bought an ipad case for it :-S
[12:03] <czajkowski> TheOpenSourcerer: no idea I dont eat salmon but it was purchased
[12:19] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: Just put a translation in that was missing ^_^
[12:19] <HazRPG> as a suggestion
[12:21] <oimon> HazRPG: how's your php code?
[12:21] <HazRPG> oimon: hmm?
[12:21] <HazRPG> how'd ya mean?
[12:21] <oimon> just happened to be looking at http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/job/4345493/php-developer-arabic-speaking/
[12:22] <HazRPG> ah
[12:23] <HazRPG> heh, I like how it says "Arabic speaking" that would be prefect for me... however my reading and writing is poor ^_^
[12:23] <oimon> that wouldn't necessarily get picked up at interview ;)
[12:23] <HazRPG> true :P
[12:23] <MartijnVdS> "I'll wing it"
[12:23] <oimon> actually it's not a requirement either
[12:24] <oimon> are you working/looking for work ?
[12:24] <MooDoo> who isn't looking for work ;)
[12:25] <HazRPG> technically I'm self-employed at the moment, just because its easier than trying to find work
[12:26] <oimon> i'll have an opening for a Linux sysadmin soon hopefully
[12:26] <HazRPG> however, planning on moving to Egypt after I finish the last set of projects I have lined up to look after my mum (had a nasty accident earlier in the year she's still recovering from), and because she wants to set up a business and wants me to be the IT man of the whole thing
[12:27] <MooDoo> oimon: where are you based?
[12:27] <oimon> London  E1
[12:28] <HazRPG> I feel like I'm being a bit of an idiot at the moment lol
[12:28] <MooDoo> HazRPG: i had that feeling this morning
[12:28] <HazRPG> the one time I'm not looking for word (not actively, because I have ideas/plans in mind)... is when jobs are being thrown my way
[12:29] <HazRPG> s/word/work/*
[12:29] <oimon> i have a duty to my wife + son to bring home the bacon
[12:29] <MooDoo> snap!
[12:29] <Hippychick> mmmm bacon!
[12:30]  * Hippychick wants bacon now...
[12:30] <MooDoo> bacon, pancakes and maple syrup
[12:30] <Hippychick> yum
[12:30] <gord> you all suck
[12:30] <HazRPG> my dad offered me a Web Manager/Developer job up in saudi about a week ago, probably not as well paid as the one you mentioned... however taxes are less, and cost of living is cheaper...
[12:30] <gord> do not mention bacon unless i have bacon
[12:30] <oimon> i'm increasingly getting stitched up in my job, and if i was single i would have moved already
[12:30] <MooDoo> gord: just blame Hippychick
[12:31] <HazRPG> MooDoo: o'rly? Why did you feel that way this morning?
[12:31] <gord> MooDoo, i blame you!
[12:31] <Hippychick> me? :(
[12:31] <MooDoo> HazRPG: kept stalling my motorbike, forgot umpteen passwords, couldn't remember simple linux commands, kept trying to restart httpd when i'm on a debian box....sigh
[12:32]  * oimon crosses MooDoo off the shortlist
[12:33] <MooDoo> oimon: oi ;)
[12:33] <MooDoo> Hippychick: mwah! :)
[12:35] <Hippychick> eeep, boss has just come in
[12:36] <HazRPG> oimon: haha
[12:36] <oimon> quick,hide!
[12:36] <HazRPG> MooDoo: oopsie!
[12:36] <HazRPG> MooDoo: Just one of those days?
[12:36] <MooDoo> Hippychick: update table set field = 'boss is cool' where id = 52 limit 1;  isn't that what you were after?
[12:37] <MooDoo> HazRPG: i'm ok now, think it's baby brain as in i want my new one NOW! :)
[12:37] <oimon> 13:37
[12:38] <oimon> btw the latest issue of linux journal is free and worth reading
[12:39] <oimon> http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/free-sample-issue
[12:42] <oimon> actually i found a page that had the pdf on for easier reading
[12:42] <HazRPG> MooDoo: ah, that makes sense
[12:43] <diplo> top right, download ?
[12:44] <gord> sure is hard to get work done when you have a cat begging you to play with it
[12:44] <HazRPG> score
[12:44] <HazRPG> gord: work from home too?
[12:44] <gord> yup
[12:45] <MooDoo> i would love to work from home :S
[12:45] <gord> it comes with a lot of benefits, but its not as amazing as you might think it is ;)
[12:45] <gord> i sometimes go days without seeing another person
[12:46] <MooDoo> gord: that's ok with me, i'm a loner ;)
[12:46] <MooDoo> no loner, not loser ;)
[12:46] <gord> its okay for me too ;) cats make perfect human replacements
[12:47] <gord> also my stuffed animals
[12:47] <gord> and that one wookie on my desk
[12:47] <gord> senior wookie
[12:47] <MooDoo> gord: as long i have some noise in the background, music or the like i'd be fine :)
[12:48] <oimon> http://monstersofgrok.com/
[12:49] <HazRPG> gord: dude, I work from home... so I know the feeling
[12:49] <HazRPG> MooDoo: music works for me too
[12:55] <bigcalm> I work from home and long for a cat to keep me company
[12:55] <gord> so get a cat?
[12:55] <gord> lots of them at your local shelter looking for a good home
[12:55] <bigcalm> gord: renting and land lady says no
[12:56] <gord> claim its a plant
[12:57] <MartijnVdS> or a vegetable
[12:57] <bigcalm> Plus, fiancé(e?) and I like our freedom too much
[12:57] <shauno> bonus points if you manage to convince the landlady that she's a vegetable
[12:57] <bigcalm> I can never remember if it's with or without the e on the end for a lady
[12:57] <daubers> landlords/ladies love it when you get a cat and then say it's because they refused to deal with the rats
[12:58] <bigcalm> Heh
[12:58] <bigcalm> I don't think I've seen or heard from our land lady at all this year
[12:58] <bigcalm> Just how I like it
[12:59] <Myrtti> I've been renting my place since January 2007 and I've not heard of my landlord since he showed me the place before signing the rental agreement
[13:00] <Myrtti> hm
[13:00] <Myrtti> since January 2008 rather
[13:00]  * daubers is still trying to buy a house. Stupid mortgage lenders silly terms
[13:01] <bigcalm> We'd like to buy this house some day. No rush though :)
[13:01] <zleap> hi
[13:01] <zleap> i am trying to look up how to add my user to www-data so I have write access to /var/www to test my website locally
[13:02] <bigcalm> zleap: add your user to the www-data group and then chown the files you want to alter
[13:03] <zleap> so useradd -G groupname  username
[13:04] <oimon> cats don't have owners
[13:04] <bigcalm> zleap: quite possibly. It's been a while since I last did things with groups. Though, once you have updated the groups your user is in, you will need to logout/in or open a new terminal to see the change
[13:04] <bigcalm> oimon: they have staff
[13:05] <oimon> bigcalm: yep, and often we would "own" cats that were also owned by other neighbours...they saw a neoighbourhood they liked and squatted for a whle
[13:06] <oimon> so any query from a  landlady would be answered with "it's a neighbours cat i think. it keeps sneaking in here though"
[13:06] <bigcalm> Heh
[13:07] <zleap> ok thanks
[13:07] <daubers> I think I should probably by stock in any cable suppliers in the area when I finally buy my house. The amount of ethernet I'm thinking of running around with poe for sensor type stuff means I should be onto a winner!
[13:07] <bigcalm> zleap: you're welcome and good luck :)
[13:08] <bigcalm> power over ethernet?
[13:08] <zleap> ok according to users and groups I should bea member of www-data
[13:08] <bigcalm> I thought it was the other way around
[13:09] <zleap> so do i need to change the ownership of /www in /var so i owni t
[13:09] <bigcalm> NO
[13:09] <bigcalm> Oops
[13:09] <bigcalm> No
[13:10] <zleap> ah hang on  i need to read the permissions again
[13:10] <bigcalm> I meant that you will need to "chown :www-data foo.txt" if you create a new file
[13:10] <bigcalm> 664 for non exec files
[13:10] <bigcalm> 775 for dirs
[13:11] <zleap> ok
[13:14] <zleap> right now the www directory is owned by root not www-data
[13:15] <bigcalm> zleap: what user and group does apache have set in the conf?
[13:15] <zleap> not sure
[13:15] <zleap> cd /etc
[13:15] <zleap> ls -l
[13:16] <bigcalm> :D
[13:16] <bigcalm> w/w? :P
[13:16] <zleap> where is the conf file
[13:16] <bigcalm> It's /etc/apache2/apache2.conf
[13:16] <bigcalm> # These need to be set in /etc/apache2/envvars
[13:16] <bigcalm> User ${APACHE_RUN_USER}
[13:16] <bigcalm> Group ${APACHE_RUN_GROUP}
[13:16] <bigcalm> That's in the file, so look in /etc/apache2/envvars
[13:18] <zleap> so i edit the 2 lines with the above on
[13:18] <bigcalm> It doesn't matter that root owns /var/www, that's just the default setup. You can "chown -R www-data:www-data /var/www/"
[13:18] <bigcalm> No need to edit the apache config at this point, no
[13:18] <zleap> ok
[13:18] <KrisDouglas> Hello, is there any reason why ubuntu's graphical performance takes a dive after around 1.5-2 days uptime? My machine starts to respond quite slowly and things like Docky start to scroll as if running on a very old card. (Which my 9600GT isn't)
[13:19] <zleap> so i cd to /var
[13:19] <zleap> thebn chwon from there
[13:19] <bigcalm> zleap: you don't have to. You can use the full path
[13:20] <zleap> ok
[13:20]  * bigcalm heads off to the shower
[13:20] <zleap> ok /www is now owned by www-data to which I an a group member
[13:20] <HazRPG> hmm my DVD drive is being weird...
[13:21] <HazRPG> seems to not want to detect any blank discs o.O
[13:21] <bigcalm> zleap: it doesn't matter who owns /var/www, it's a matter of what the group is set to
[13:21] <zleap> ok
[13:22] <bigcalm> So, /var/www could have iain:www-data
[13:22] <zleap> well i can log in (console) and create a file in there now so I should be able to copy my old site files over
[13:22] <HazRPG> dmesg says: brasero[24636]: segfault at 4e5f86a6 ip 00007fe3bb12fd21 sp 00007fff378b0340 error 4 in libgobject-2.0.so.0.2600.1[7fe3bb104000+49000]
[13:22] <HazRPG> that mean anything to anyone?
[13:22] <daubers> KrisDouglas: Try watching your memory usage? If the machine starts swapping then I'd imagine something like that
[13:22] <daubers> happening
[13:23] <KrisDouglas> the machine has 8GB RAM, swap usage has never gone over 232.0kb (0%)
[13:25] <zleap> ok thanks
[13:25] <zleap> righti need to get it to parse php properly now i installed the php module
[13:26] <daubers> KrisDouglas: Anything on top eating CPU?
[13:26] <KrisDouglas> nothing really chewing cpu, no.
[13:27] <KrisDouglas> load: 0.65, 0.59, 0.50
[13:28] <daubers> KrisDouglas: Something using IO a lot maybe?
[13:30] <KrisDouglas> total disk write while using chromium is peaking at 137K/s, averaging at around 57 K/s
[13:32] <daubers> How full are your disks?
[13:33] <HazRPG> stupid cd drive o.O
[13:33] <daubers> (are you in the last 15% odd)
[13:34] <KrisDouglas> the most full disk which is primary is at 76%
[13:34] <KrisDouglas> sorry, 44%
[13:34] <daubers> In that case..... no idea
[13:34] <KrisDouglas> Weird isn't it
[13:35] <KrisDouglas> The machine is theoretically healthy
[13:35] <daubers> Very odd. Does it go away if you restart X? Or does it still hang around?
[13:36] <daubers> Oh, and make sure you're getting no I/O errors or anything like that in dmesg
[13:36] <oimon> KrisDouglas: which version?
[13:37] <doc__> Is it ok to ask a question about scripting/cron here?
[13:37] <oimon> $ uptime:  14:36:42 up 40 days, 27 min, 38 users,  load average: 0.44, 0.46, 0.55
[13:37] <oimon> my desktop seems OK, but had chronic probs with firefox eating RAM, now gone
[13:37] <KrisDouglas> 11.04, oimon
[13:38] <oimon> 10.04 here. 11.04 does have an interrupts/power bug though
[13:38] <KrisDouglas> oimon, I cannot get uptime like that, the performance of my machine becomes unbearable.
[13:38] <KrisDouglas> oimon, how do you mean/
[13:38] <KrisDouglas> ?
[13:38] <oimon> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_natty_power&num=1
[13:39] <daubers> oimon: That's a kernel issue that anyone using recent kernel versions will suffer (not ubuntu specific)
[13:40] <oimon> yes, true (probably)
[13:40] <HazRPG> is there a way of figuring out my I can't use my dvd drive anymore?
[13:40] <daubers> Someone found where the issue is....
[13:40] <HazRPG> it was working a moment ago (tried to burn something to it)
[13:41] <daubers> oimon: http://www.techytalk.info/linux-kernel-2-6-38-2-6-39-power-regression-workaround/ I think
[13:41] <gord> i love phoronix, but i wish he would actually post bugs
[13:41] <HazRPG> but brasero just sort of stopping working as it was attempting to burn to it... and then just randomly closed, and now I can't even mount the drive... or do anything with it
[13:41] <gord> just posting findings on a website does not a fixed OS make
[13:42] <doc__> touch --date="$adjDate" nextRecordTime..... where $adjDate is a string with a space in it. Running from a terminal is ok but when run from cron everything after the space is ignored... anyone help?
[13:44] <Myrtti> MOOMINS \o/
[13:46] <oimon> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/760131
[13:47] <oimon> this problem for me sets in stone the Vista moniker for Natty
[13:48] <MartijnVdS> oimon: Ubuntu Vista? :)
[13:50] <zleap> ok thanks for the help guys,
[13:50] <zleap> chat later
[13:52] <ikonia-remote> oimon: that's not a natty issue, it's a kernel issue
[13:53] <oimon> that's still a natty issue. not canonicals fault necessarily, but still
[13:53] <ikonia-remote> oimon: it's any distro using that kernel issue
[13:53] <ikonia-remote> granted it does effect natty, and it's quite shocking this got into production.
[13:54] <oimon> it doesn't detract from the fact that natty is canonicals vista, (half baked unity etc)
[13:54] <ikonia-remote> oimon: no it's not
[13:55] <oimon> i used to upgrade every 6 months on my office pc, but not since 10.04
[13:55] <BigRedS> what's in that 'etc.'?
[13:56] <ikonia-remote_> damn connection, sorry
[13:56] <HazRPG> oimon: I have to agree with you on that one... I use to always update to the beta... but since 10.10, I haven't had the heart to leave 10.10
[13:56] <HazRPG> I'm still iffy about oneiric
[13:56] <ikonia-remote_> then don't upgrade ?
[13:57] <HazRPG> I will have to at some point
[13:57] <ikonia-remote_> if the distro doesn't meet your needs or software requirements, don't use it, it's that simple
[13:57] <ikonia-remote_> HazRPG: why ? why will you have to
[13:57] <HazRPG> overall, ubuntu is still one of the better distros out there
[13:57] <ikonia-remote_> HazRPG: so ? that doesn't mean you have to upgrade
[13:58] <HazRPG> 10.10 won't be supported forever
[13:58] <oimon> yes, although 12.04 will need to be polished
[13:58] <BigRedS> well, it'll get progressively more difficult to maintain a [working|compatible|secure|stable] system without getting something gnome3
[13:59] <BigRedS> though, tbh, having unbroken the workspaces model, gnome3's rather nice IME
[13:59] <ikonia-remote_> HazRPG: no, although 18 months is a reasonable ammount of time to see where the land lies to see if you wish to continue using ubuntu and upgrade, or change distros
[13:59] <BigRedS> change to what, though?
[13:59] <BigRedS> if you want not-gnome-3, you're basically looking at Debian
[13:59] <doc__> #channels
[13:59] <BigRedS> or perhaps centos
[13:59] <oimon> what's debian testing using for DE right now?
[13:59] <BigRedS> and that's only until their next release
[13:59] <BigRedS> testings' Gnome 2
[14:00] <ikonia-remote_> BigRedS: centos is not using gnome 3
[14:01] <BigRedS> ikonia-remote_: yeah, so until the next release of each, centos, scientific or debian is your best bet
[14:01] <BigRedS> that, or xfce or whatever on whatever distro you like
[14:01] <oimon> 6 series will get old quickly
[14:01] <daubers> \o/ U1 broke the office router
[14:01] <ikonia-remote_> BigRedS: why is that ?
[14:01] <BigRedS> like I say, outside of Unity, there's nothing particularly weird about natty
[14:01] <BigRedS> so install XFCE on top and pretend it's gnome 2
[14:01] <HazRPG> I don't mind gnome3 so much, it does break (in my mind) how I feel a desktop should work, its still one of the better ones out there. However unity on the other hand just feels like its trying to be a Mac, but trying to be Windows, Linux and /other/ all at the same time and breaking all rules on HCI consistency
[14:01] <oimon> ubuntu is a broad distro and we have the option of all the DEs
[14:02] <ikonia-remote_> BigRedS: the next release of RHEL will most likley be dropping gnome based on current discussions, or moving to gnome 3 based on the Fedora model at that snapshot in time
[14:02] <BigRedS> yeah, obviously. Everyone's going to have dropped gnome 2 by their next stable release
[14:02] <oimon> the next release of RHEL will be in a couple of years time at least
[14:04] <BigRedS> HazRPG: what's broken? (out of genuine interest, I'm a week and a bit into a gnome3 experiment and it seems pretty workable to me)
[14:05] <HazRPG> the way I see it, gnome3 is a great improvement (codebase-wise), and I can see lots of lovely features inside of it that I would love using myself... however the only problem is trying to learn/get us to the new workspace way of working
[14:06] <HazRPG> well for example, I like being able to see my applications running on the window list (or taskbar)
[14:06] <BigRedS> Ah, see I've installed the extensions to give me four static workspaces, so I can use it like gnome2. And someone else here just uses only one workspace, so he uses it like Gnome2...
[14:06] <HazRPG> and I like the organised listing of applications in the "applications" menu from gnome2
[14:06] <BigRedS> ah yeah, there's no real panel analog
[14:06] <BigRedS> ue
[14:07] <HazRPG> I love the fact that you can browse for applications in the appmenu, but I don't like how this just replaced the old menu altogether, the search ability should have just been added to it... not completely took over by it
[14:07] <daubers> I don't mind the loss of the panels too much. more than anything else I used to fill them with rubbish that was more distracting than anything else
[14:08] <HazRPG> (sorry that should have been "I love the fact that you can /search/ for applications")
[14:08] <BigRedS> you've got a nearly-menu there with teh categories down the side
[14:09] <HazRPG> daubers: true, I do the same... however I would still like to be able to see what applications are running at the bottom of my screen, rather than alt+tabbing to see what I have running, or seeing them all on-screen in some sort of weird app mashup
[14:10] <daubers> HazRPG: Thats why I prefer unity to shell (a little anyway), can just flip the dock open with the win key
[14:10] <HazRPG> BigRedS: ah, see, that's where HCI comes into this... that now makes it 2 clicks to browse for things, and that's just before you even click on an application... and also assuming you know which category your wanting to look through
[14:11] <BigRedS> HazRPG: Yeah, but menus are always the slow way to pick something anyway
[14:11] <BigRedS> I am amused that things appear to *still* be restricted to only being in one category
[14:11] <HazRPG> heh, true
[14:11] <BigRedS> so internet-enabled office apps just need to pick one, hence thunderbird being an internet app and evolution being an office one
[14:12] <HazRPG> the only reason to be able to see things in a menu, is because some applications might not be used often... and one forgets sometimes what he actually has installed
[14:12] <BigRedS> yeah, in which case this categories thing in that pane is a good substitute
[14:12] <HazRPG> true
[14:12] <BigRedS> "I installed that wicked cool video editing thing, what was it again.." sorts of things
[14:12] <HazRPG> like I said gnome3 is good in that sense
[14:13] <HazRPG> its just the window-list/taskbar that's going to be hard to get out of the habit of
[14:13] <BigRedS> ah, I've not used a taskbar in years
[14:13] <ikonia-remote> HazRPG: who knows that may change as it evolves and matures
[14:13] <BigRedS> I'm ideally suited for The Modern Desktop TM :)
[14:14] <ikonia-remote> HazRPG: one of the gnome developers wrote an interesting article on changing things for the sake of trying to be different, it it doesn't work or is not what people need to do their day, there are options
[14:14] <HazRPG> heh, I usually have about 15 applications running at any one time... alt-tabbing between all of that is not sexy ^_^
[14:14] <ikonia-remote> HazRPG: I also find that quite frustrating
[14:14] <BigRedS> HazRPG: Ah, you need to do less work, then :)
[14:15] <HazRPG> heh
[14:16] <HazRPG> some things get left on the back-burner sorta speak... I'll open something up, get it running, something job intensive... and leave it be... you can't close it till its done for example... so you continue with something else... and by the end of it... you find you have too much stuff open
[14:16] <HazRPG> and you think "right I had that open first, that should be done by now" and go to it
[14:16] <HazRPG> if you can't see it... its hard to find it
[14:16] <BigRedS> ah yeah
[14:16] <BigRedS> I do that with shells all the time
[14:16] <HazRPG> and if its minimised, its even worse, because you just get an application icon instead of a preview... so your not sure if it's the right one until you tab to it
[14:17] <HazRPG> exactly, see you get what I mean then ^_^
[14:17] <HazRPG> if it wasn't for stuff like that, then I'd be all for the whole "woo gnome3!"
[14:17] <HazRPG> rewind time to when I use to have say maybe 2-3 apps running, gnome3 would have been great
[14:18] <HazRPG> (I still think it would be great - just not realistic :P)
[14:19] <ikonia-remote> alt-tabbing for application selection isn't reall usable with 2 apps for me
[14:19] <HazRPG> e.g. I have natty on my laptop, because I'll probably only have a browser running - or maybe a game or film on :P
[14:19] <ikonia-remote> I want to be able to select what I want
[14:19] <ikonia-remote> rather than cycle through
[14:19] <HazRPG> ikonia-remote: it gets worse, I have 2 screens :P
[14:19] <HazRPG> your not sure which screen your going to be alt-tabbing to
[14:19] <ikonia-remote> I've not run it dual head I'm assuming the tabbing depends on the screen your on
[14:20] <HazRPG> nope
[14:20]  * freakyclown returns
[14:20] <HazRPG> alt+tabbing (even in gnome3 - tried liveCD) just mashes everything off that workspace
[14:20] <HazRPG> and since gnome3 will show you several workspaces in the alt+tab, it can be a nightmare
[14:21] <MartijnVdS> yeah but multi-screen is a power user feature
[14:21] <ikonia-remote> HazRPG: so it only sees the applications for the workspace (screen) your on
[14:21] <HazRPG> freakyclown: wb ^_^
[14:21] <MartijnVdS> and Unity isn't made for power users!
[14:21] <BigRedS> unity isn't made for *any* users! ;)
[14:21] <HazRPG> ikonia-remote: close, each workspace still contains 2 screens
[14:21] <ikonia-remote> HazRPG: ok, I see what you mean now
[14:22] <ikonia-remote> workspace and screen are two things that make it a tricky conversation to have
[14:22] <HazRPG> MartijnVdS: Indeed!
[14:22] <HazRPG> ikonia-remote: true
[14:23] <HazRPG> maybe I just need to triple-boot my system, and actually play with gnome3 properly with my development stuff and see if it can actually live with it or not (rather than just basing it on what I've seen on my laptop)
[14:23] <ikonia-remote> I wonder if part of the reason the windows desktop layout with a task bar that so many other desktops have copied has been like that for so long...because it works
[14:24] <BigRedS> HazRPG: it's worth doing.
[14:24] <BigRedS> I disliked it until I actually spent a few days using it
[14:24] <BigRedS> though you might never get over the taskbar thing
[14:24] <BigRedS> unless there's a shell extension to fix that
[14:24] <HazRPG> ikonia-remote: imitation is a form of flattery, or so they say
[14:25] <bigcalm> "Here are A and B" or "Here is A and B"? If it was just A or B on their own, then I would use "is". But I often fall over on this one
[14:25] <HazRPG> BigRedS: I think there is a shell extension for it... but I'm not sure
[14:25] <HazRPG> BigRedS: also, I do use and like gnome3, just don't think I could use it for my regular worky-day-to-day stuff
[14:25] <BigRedS> HazRPG: yeah, that's *exactly* what I thought until I installed it on my work PC :)
[14:26] <ikonia-remote> HazRPG: I just wonder if people haven't changed from it because at this moment in time, it's the best working option for the majortiy of users
[14:27] <HazRPG> BigRedS: I can't get use to unity however, not in the slightest - already hard enough trying to support my sister who uses natty
[14:27] <HazRPG> ikonia-remote: I would have to agree with that, I believe this is the case for most
[14:28] <daubers> HazRPG: I found slipping into Unity relativley easy. That might be because I regularly flip between Win/Lin/OSX for work
[14:28] <HazRPG> ikonia-remote: gotta remember, some do already work in the Unity style of working if they've used Mac's... however Unity != Mac, its just similar in places
[14:28] <ikonia-remote> HazRPG: then I start to understand what the gnome blog about changing for the sake of trying to be different is about
[14:28] <daubers> HazRPG: I found it harder working with shell than with unity
[14:28] <HazRPG> daubers: if your constantly using different things, then I can see how the change was easy :P
[14:29] <HazRPG> daubers: tried dragging something to the unity bar yet though ;)?
[14:29] <BigRedS> I found Unity easier to work with concept-wise than Gnome, but Gnome's way less buggy and only needs one extension to make workspaces work
[14:29] <DJones> daubers: How did your month using Windows go? Did you manage to last the month out
[14:29] <daubers> HazRPG: I did try and eject something by dragging it onto the bar :) Then realised that a) it was the wrong machine and b) it doesn't work like that :p
[14:29] <daubers> DJones: No :(
[14:30] <DJones> daubers: Heh
[14:30] <AlanBell> I wrote a unity lens which makes it quite bearable
[14:30] <daubers> DJones: Found that it slowed me down quite considerably, and I didn't really have time to be slow
[14:30] <HazRPG> daubers: may I point to this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/826059
[14:30] <HazRPG> its fixed now in 11.10
[14:30] <HazRPG> but 11.04 still has it, cos its not backported yet
[14:31] <daubers> HazRPG: I prefer the way it works in 11.10, with the dash thing as an icon
[14:31] <HazRPG> (my sister lost files a few times due to that bug)
[14:31] <daubers> HazRPG: in fact, the biggest Ubuntu change that still annoys the hell out of me (when i forget) is the loss of aptitude in the default install
[14:31] <daubers> Gets me once, then I install it
[14:32] <HazRPG> :o!?
[14:32] <HazRPG> oh, you mean everything gets pushed through the software centre?
[14:32] <HazRPG> or you can't actually do "apt-get ..."
[14:32] <daubers> HazRPG: No, the command line tool "aptitude". Always used it instead of "apt-get" as it had a bit more power in it
[14:33] <HazRPG> daubers: ah
[14:33] <HazRPG> see, apt-get does the trick for me :)
[14:33] <daubers> And you can still do apt-get :) Just muscle memory makes me do otherwise
[14:33] <daubers> Did consider making a bash alias for aptitude to apt-get but imagine that may break lots of things
[14:34] <HazRPG> hmm, so is aptitude the "dpgk" stuff, or am I completely overshooting it now?
[14:34] <HazRPG> ignore me... just did man aptitude
[14:34] <daubers> HazRPG: Heh, it's just another dpkg front end like apt-get
[14:34] <HazRPG> I see what you mean by more power
[14:34] <BigRedS> daubers: I thought it was synaptic rather than aptitude?
[14:35] <BigRedS> maybe my common-sense filter did that to ease the dumfoundedness
[14:35] <HazRPG> BigRedS: Synaptic is the GUI version of aptitude :)
[14:35] <BigRedS> yeah
[14:35] <BigRedS> synaptic's arguably been replaced by the software centre
[14:35] <BigRedS> for years now people keep intimating that aptitude is replacing apt-get
[14:35] <BigRedS> so it makes no sense to get rid of aptitude
[14:36] <HazRPG> oh, aptitude is a cli-gui thing
[14:36] <HazRPG> nice
[14:36] <daubers> HazRPG: Also does lots from the cli without the gui
[14:37] <HazRPG> BigRedS: I can see this being useful for sysadmins!
[14:37] <BigRedS> aptitude is either a cli command or a curses app, depending upon how you invoke it
[14:37] <HazRPG> daubers: yeah, was reading the man pages
[14:37] <daubers> yup
[14:37] <daubers> HazRPG: I do, however, understand the argument for getting rid of aptitude, as the people who use it are very much in the minority and CD space is at a premium.
[14:38] <gord> if i can't have vim on the cd, other nerds can't have aptitude dang it >:(
[14:38] <daubers> One day I'll make some magic ldappy thing which will keep a list of packages in an ldap database and install them when the system is bound
[14:38] <BigRedS> haha
[14:38] <BigRedS> I'd much rather have vim out of the box than aptitude
[14:38] <HazRPG> heh, well thing is, if you're an aptitude user, your more like going to be able to install it... then those who don't even know what it is :P
[14:38] <daubers> BigRedS: I'd rather have aptitude :) Vi is good enough
[14:39] <BigRedS> It's great until I forget it's only vim and try to use arrow keys...
[14:39] <HazRPG> am I the only one that uses nano?
[14:39] <BigRedS> I only ever use aptitude to tidy up after I've done something silly to apt. If I used aptitude allthe time I've no idea how I'd fix it
[14:39] <BigRedS> er, s/only vim/only vi/
[14:39] <daubers> HazRPG: I'm just starting to understand how the app indicators work. Have to admit, those are pretty nifty when writing stuff for me to use at home
[14:39] <gord> i looooove ending up with :wq at the bottom of my fstab file after every new install >:(
[14:40] <BigRedS> haha
[14:40] <HazRPG> CTRL+X Y for me :)
[14:40]  * daubers is having fun writing stuff to work on osx and 'buntu these days
[14:41] <daubers> try importing libindicator, if it fails use growl and so on
[14:41] <HazRPG> I'm having fun writing stuff for bash in general recently :)
[14:41] <daubers> Ah, bash has an onomatopoeicly  correct name
[14:43] <bigcalm> Oo, hi popey
[14:43] <ipopey> Pip pip
[14:43] <ipopey> How's tricks?
[14:44] <daubers> once my new sensors arrive from china, I want to make a unity icon thing that shows the relative level of different gases in my living room using the progress bar thing
[14:44] <bigcalm> The sun is out, so all is well
[14:44] <daubers> popey: Trickey
[14:44] <KrisDouglas> daubers, how's that project coming along?
[14:44] <daubers> KrisDouglas: The sensors stuff?
[14:44] <KrisDouglas> Yeah
[14:45] <daubers> Good :) Got mqtt working how I want it to now. Just need the components and then need to write some little apps
[14:45] <daubers> Ubuntu/OSX/Android are the targets
[14:45] <ipopey> I have my feet in sand :)
[14:45] <bigcalm> ipopey: kids want to bury you yet?
[14:46] <ipopey> Yes
[14:46] <bigcalm> :D
[14:46] <bigcalm> !ping
[14:46] <bigcalm> Humm
[14:47] <bigcalm> Web and spotify have stopped working for me, but irc continues
[14:47]  * bigcalm thinks DNS is down
[14:48]  * daubers will enjoy the fact that by the end of next week (hopefully) he'll be able to measure the relative amount of alochol in the air in his living room
[14:48] <bigcalm> daubers: on a ppm scale?
[14:53] <daubers> bigcalm: On a relative ppm scale. No idea how I'd actually calibrate it to make it an actual scale
[15:06] <ikonia-remote> I managed to watch Dr Who last night
[15:07] <ikonia-remote> what a massive dissapointment it has turned into after the First 2 series, it now appears to just be a series of random and more random events happening
[15:07] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Alistair McKinlay] Paper: a dying relic, or here for a long time to come? - http://www.10people.co.uk/index.php/2011/09/paper-a-dying-relic/
[15:07] <daubers> ikonia-remote: They seem to be going through finishing off unfinished story lines
[15:08] <daubers> ikonia-remote: i.e. at the moment their finishing off the "River Sung" storyline
[15:08] <ikonia-remote> daubers: but it's just random nonsense
[15:08] <ikonia-remote> there appears to be no story, just events happening that are linked
[15:08] <ikonia-remote> it's not really a story
[15:08] <ikonia-remote> there is no individual episode plot and the big picture story is just random
[15:09] <daubers> ikonia-remote: Surely that is the definition of a plot? "Events happening that are linked to a specific storyline", the storyline at the minute being related to the Silence
[15:09] <ikonia-remote> daubers: that's not what I meant
[15:10] <daubers> ikonia-remote: However, a lot of the recent stuff has been unremarkable. But there have been some really remarkable episodes
[15:10] <ikonia-remote> daubers: I've not seen anything worth watching for years on it
[15:10] <daubers> ikonia-remote: I did like the random "Meet the TARDIS" episode. Thought that was ace
[15:10] <ikonia-remote> the stories seem to get weaker and weaker and more random and random
[15:11] <ikonia-remote> daubers: that was a self contained story and seemed to work better than the drawn out dribble
[15:11] <daubers> ikonia-remote: I'm not too sure tbh. It seems they've spent most of this series tying up the loose ends from the previous ones.
[15:12] <ikonia-remote> daubers: they are just writing nonsense to try to make sense of the stories they had no idea what to do with
[15:13] <ikonia-remote> it seems they have massivly run out of plot the writers......are not good in my view (I know I'm in the minority) it's just got weaker since the first 2 series
[15:14] <daubers> ikonia-remote: I'd agree with quite a few episodes. However I think the ones that really stood out (mainly the tardis one, and the 2 parter with the angels) do somewhat keep me interested
[15:15] <ikonia-remote> I feel bad as each series is more and more dissapointing
[15:15] <daubers> ikonia-remote: I also thought the last christmas special was the best bit of Who I'd seen for a while
[15:15] <ikonia-remote> daubers: the one with the opera singer
[15:15] <ikonia-remote> ?
[15:15] <ikonia-remote> (I lose track)
[15:15] <ikonia-remote> Catherin Jenkins is it
[15:15] <ikonia-remote> that one ?
[15:15] <daubers> ikonia-remote: The Christmas Carol one
[15:16] <ikonia-remote> I've rarley seen anything as bad as that one
[15:16] <ikonia-remote> I genuinly thought that one of the weakest I'd seen
[15:16] <daubers> I really enjoyed that one. I thought it was put together quite well, with the whole "Time can be changed" thing they've had going
[15:17] <ikonia-remote> daubers: shoe horning in Catherine Jenkins to sing and floating wales.....sorry, no
[15:17] <ikonia-remote> (I can't remember if that's her correct name, so apologies if I'm wrong on her name)
[15:18] <daubers> She didn't seem shoe horned in. It did seem that whatser face and rory where shoe horned in a bit at times. The floating fish where also quite central to the plot
[15:18] <ikonia-remote> daubers: they where all shoe horned in
[15:18] <ikonia-remote> it was a terrible story
[15:18] <daubers> I thoroughly enjoyed it
[15:18] <ikonia-remote> (I really didn't like it in case you hadn't guessed)
[15:19] <daubers> ( I gathered)
[15:20] <daubers> ikonia-remote: Having rewatched the first episode of the first new series, I do think that generally it is better. But I think there are less exceptional episodes than a couple of the previous series. I'm also glad that they're not bringing in the Daleks again for a bit
[15:20] <daubers> They're not as scary as they used to be
[15:20] <ikonia-remote> daubers: I thought they brought the daleks back quite well
[15:20] <ikonia-remote> the first season introduction was good
[15:21] <ikonia-remote> I think they realised quickly they had made a massive mistake by declaring that a.) the timelords where all dead b.) the daleks where all dead
[15:21] <daubers> ikonia-remote: Problem was, that they've relied on them too much and they've been over used. Generally surprised they don't just go "Oh, its the doctor, time to go home"
[15:21] <ikonia-remote> I'm still waiting for them to bring back the Rahni, a good character waiting to be brought back
[15:22] <ikonia-remote> daubers: the first 7 series of the original Dr Who didn't realise that.....
[15:22] <bigcalm[revo]> Grrr VM
[15:22] <daubers> ikonia-remote: Maybe not, but you can only bring back a single baddy in a single guise so many times before it gets old
[15:23] <bigcalm[revo]> Less than and more than are being weird too. They give me Z and X respectively
[15:23] <ikonia-remote> daubers: I wonder how much of me is a little biased due to the changes they have made from the original series "universe" eg: the cybermen are now humans in shells who "delete" rather than a clever alien race
[15:23] <bigcalm[revo]> And shift + 2 is giving @
[15:23] <bigcalm[revo]> @ is giving me q
[15:23] <bigcalm[revo]> What the heck?
[15:23] <ikonia-remote> bigcalm[revo]: USA keyboard layout
[15:24] <suprengr> dalek: oh booga it's The Doctor time to go upsatars, hide in the cupboard & forget our entire ethos!
[15:24]  * bigcalm[revo] pokes synergy
[15:24] <bigcalm[revo]> ><
[15:24] <bigcalm[revo]> That's better :)
[15:24] <bigcalm[revo]> Restarting synergy on client and server fixed it
[15:25] <bigcalm[revo]> All I wanted to write was: I </3 VM
[15:26] <suprengr> - or didn't anyone see the lone dalek hybrid eposide
[15:26] <suprengr> *stairs btw
[15:26] <ikonia-remote> suprengr: the one that was a man with an alien head ?
[15:27] <daubers> ikonia-remote: Maybe, that and people always remember things as better than they where originally (nostalgia and all that)
[15:28] <ikonia-remote> daubers: not %100 true, I watched the Sylvester McCoy story "destruction of the daleks" the other day, the effects where weak, but the plot wipes the floor with the new stuff
[15:29] <ikonia-remote> daubers: but I'm sure at least %70 true
[15:32] <directhex> can we agree colin baker sucks?
[15:32] <oimon> + SM + DT
[15:33] <ikonia-remote_> directhex: although I enjoy his childish tantrum and refusal to do the rejeneration clips
[15:33] <ikonia-remote_> and the fact that he's super bitter about it to this day
[15:35] <ikonia-remote> this connection is getting very annoying
[15:36] <daubers> ikonia-remote: The one thing that I always enjoy where the effects are pants, but the stories are amazing is the original series of the twilight zone
[15:37] <daubers> However, taken out of it's time period, they've all become cliches
[15:38] <ikonia-remote> daubers: totally, it's quite hard to keep in context with a 20 year time period
[15:38] <ikonia-remote> need to disconnect for a while
[15:53] <bigcalm[revo]> I fear I might hurt somebody/thing at VM soon
[15:53] <bigcalm[revo]> Please leave my connection connected
[16:19] <MooDoo> not having fun bigcalm ?
[16:19] <gord> still need to figure out how to take my revo apart :(
[16:19] <gord> just not happening
[16:20] <bigcalm> gord: there is 1 screw to undo in the side, it's under a sticky label
[16:21] <bigcalm> MooDoo: When one has a job that wouldn't exist without the internet, it gets difficult to do when said internet goes away
[16:21] <MooDoo> bigcalm: yeah i know that one :S
[16:23] <gord> bigcalm, so there is!
[16:24] <bigcalm> gord: when I bought my revo from play.com, I went for the 2gb option. They sent me the device with the extra ram as a stick to insert myself
[16:25] <bigcalm> So, voided the warranty on day one :)
[16:25] <gord> bigcalm, still can't get the damn thing open :(
[16:25] <bigcalm> gord: have a look on youtube. I think that's what I did
[16:26] <bigcalm> If I wanted to take it apart now, I'd have to look up how to do it again :)
[16:26]  * daubers hands gord the +1 hammer of smashing
[16:27] <gord> daubers, should be noted that i want to fix it not make it in to thousands of tiny pieces
[16:30] <gord> got the blasted thing open, thank you kindly bigcalm :)
[16:30] <bigcalm> gord: yay :)
[16:37] <gord> woo time to order some new memory
[16:37] <daubers> gord: I meant to do that the other day, but I forgot
[16:39] <gord> geez, the revo comes with 2gb ram
[16:39] <gord> thats crazy
[16:39] <gord> oh wait no, i guess some people might use it for more than just xbmc.... crazy people.
[16:39] <bigcalm> I use mine as a web dev server
[16:40] <bigcalm> Though I did buy it to run with boxee and sit under the telly
[16:43] <Antonio007> can you  help with  ndiswrapper compilation?
[16:49] <HazRPG> anyone having issues with screensavers in natty?
[16:50] <HazRPG> my sister is reporting that when the screensaver goes on... and she returns to the system, the system has locked up
[16:50] <HazRPG> it just happened now... and so I had to forcefully log her out
[16:50] <HazRPG> using "sudo pkill -KILL -u user"
[16:51] <HazRPG> seems the screensaver just locks up and refuses to let the login box show up
[16:51] <HazRPG> Not sure if this is reproducible or not.
[16:53] <HazRPG> ah, bug 762918
[16:56] <HazRPG> well its Eid... so I suppose I should ring my mum and wish her a happy Eid :)
[17:01] <MartijnVdS> oh is that today?
[17:04]  * MartijnVdS prepares for a night of partying neighbors
[17:42]  * AlanBell pokes Londonish people with -> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1257/detail/
[17:44] <czajkowski> done
[17:47] <czajkowski> alanbell gatwick -> shannon via Aer Lingus is now stopped  as of end of the month
[17:54] <AlanBell> yes
[17:54] <czajkowski> shame
[17:54] <czajkowski> staff dont know why it's been pulled
[17:54] <AlanBell> ryanair or Heathrow
[17:54] <AlanBell> not profitable
[17:54] <czajkowski> it's a busy enough flight
[17:54] <AlanBell> flights for 50p
[17:55] <czajkowski> NO Ryanair means I've to check in a bag as carry on for 10 days is not really possible with their weights
[17:55] <czajkowski> also heathrow! EWWWWWW
[17:55] <AlanBell> or leave clothes at both ends
[17:58] <czajkowski> AlanBell: only via stanstead
[18:00] <Azelphur> was up at 7am last night, some guy pm'd me in WoW telling me to go to his phishing website to get a free mount, so I did...with urllib and 20 threads :D
[18:00] <Azelphur> it went 404 after I'd sent it 10,000 form submissions, hahaha
[18:19] <HazRPG> just gotta say boys and girls... "Everyday I'm shufflin'!!"
[18:20] <HazRPG> and for the uninitiated: http://youtu.be/KQ6zr6kCPj8?t=1m37s
[18:25] <ali1234> HazRPG: which is a reference to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU9TouRnO84
[18:26] <ali1234> or possible this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLDitGAUrno
[18:27] <ali1234> gotta wonder where the sample comes from
[18:28] <HazRPG> heh, yeah it will be a reference to those :)
[18:28] <HazRPG> not many people will get that though
[18:50] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/happyhour.pdf how does that look?
[18:55] <swat__> evening all
[18:55] <swat__> does anyone have a problem with google chrome in ubuntu being really laggy?
[18:57] <DJones> swat__: Nope, no problems for me, if anything its the fastest browser I use
[19:02] <MartijnVdS> google's servers make apt-get update slow for me
[20:06] <nucc1> guys, where do I lay my hands on the 11.10 beta isos?
[20:07] <nucc1> ah, seen
[20:07] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Loco Team Portal Gets Blogging Support - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/09/01/loco-team-portal-gets-blogging-support/
[20:47] <AlanBell> beta isos are on http://releases.ubuntu.com for anyone who wants to have a play
[20:48] <AlanBell> I am putting it on a USB at the moment to try an eyes-free install with the screenreader
[20:50] <bigcalm> AlanBell: screen turned off or blindfolded?
[20:50] <AlanBell> screen off
[20:50] <AlanBell> will see if it boots with the screen unplugged, it used not to
[20:51] <bigcalm> Can't you just turn the monitor off but leave it plugged in?
[20:54] <AlanBell> yes
[20:54] <AlanBell> first time I tried I didn't bother to plug in a monitor and the boot process hangs
[20:58]  * AlanBell grumbles about the continuing embarrassing lack of a beep
[21:00] <AlanBell> Bug #180561
[21:11] <ali1234> AlanBell: that's the isolinux prompt?
[21:12] <ali1234> just add some assembler code to poke the pc speaker
[21:12] <ali1234> that's what i'd do anyway
[21:12] <ali1234> no maintainer will accept the patch but who cares?
[21:13] <ali1234> i can't believe all the debian developers combined failed to make a boot menu that beeps
[21:15] <Laney> colin watson is all the debian developers combined?
[21:15] <bigcalm> cat /dev/random > /dev/dsp
[21:16] <ali1234> Laney: only if he's using the royal we
[21:17] <AlanBell> it is gfxboot
[21:17] <AlanBell> looking through the source now
[21:17]  * Laney is confused
[21:17] <Laney> nobody did the work, therefore it isn't that
[21:17] <Laney> there*
[21:17] <Laney> that's how it goes
[21:17] <ali1234> Laney: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gfxboot-theme-ubuntu/+bug/537879/comments/1
[21:18] <AlanBell> so gfxboot is a suse thing http://www.vitki.net/static/docs/gfxboot.html#f_0126
[21:18] <AlanBell> there are indications it can make sounds happen
[21:18] <ali1234> AlanBell: don't play that game
[21:18] <ali1234> that's why they failed
[21:18] <Laney> i don't understand why you think that 'we' is all of the debian developers
[21:19] <Laney> some unknown amount of people tried, but in the end nobody cared enough to make it work
[21:19] <AlanBell> yet.
[21:19] <ali1234> gfxboot is not the right place to make the patch
[21:19] <ali1234> make it in isolinux
[21:19] <AlanBell> ok
[21:19] <ali1234> and don't try to do any sound files
[21:20] <ali1234> just bang the ioport directly
[21:20] <ali1234> it does not get any simpler than that
[21:20] <AlanBell> yeah, don't care what it sounds like, just needs a beep
[21:20] <Laney> if you have all the answers, why not fix it?
[21:20] <ali1234> it will be 1 line
[21:20] <ali1234> Laney: you have all the answer now too, since i just gave them to you
[21:20] <ali1234> so why don't *you* fix it, since i'm already busy fixing someone else's bad code
[21:21] <Laney> apparently you still don't understand how this works
[21:21] <AlanBell> hmm, what package is isolinux in then?
[21:21] <Laney> people fix things they care about
[21:21]  * AlanBell cares about it
[21:21] <ali1234> AlanBell: syslinux
[21:21] <ali1234> probably
[21:21] <AlanBell> ah, right#
[21:22] <ali1234> the hardest part of fixing this will be testing it, since you'll need a real machine most likely
[21:22] <ali1234> and have to keep reseting it
[21:23] <ali1234> and of course it won't work on arm. only x86
[21:24] <ali1234> you could make the patch in core/console.c in myputs
[21:24] <ali1234> it will then beep whenever it prints a character
[21:25] <ali1234> which might be quite a lot
[21:25] <AlanBell> so why isn't gfxboot the right place to fix it?
[21:25] <ali1234> cos gfxboot isn;t what is actually running at boot time
[21:26] <AlanBell> well it is what displays the symbol
[21:26] <ali1234> gfxboot is a program that generates graphics which are then loaded by isolinux, or grub, or whatever
[21:26] <ali1234> the actual gfxboot code is not running at boot time
[21:26] <AlanBell> oooh
[21:28] <AlanBell> ok, so gfxboot compiles the postscript stuff down to a bytecode that isolinux interprets
[21:29] <ali1234> there is probably some patch to isolinux to add gfxboot support too
[21:30] <ali1234> look in syslinux/com32/gfxboot
[21:31] <ali1234> there it is
[21:34] <AlanBell> http://ftp.halifax.rwth-aachen.de/opensuse/distribution/11.3/repo/oss/boot/x86_64/loader/hapysuse.mod the opensuse bootloader plays that under some
[21:34] <AlanBell> situations
[21:38] <AlanBell> and fsfsong.wav in some other situation
[21:38] <AlanBell> the isolinux patch would probably be a bit simpler, but I don't think it would be accepted
[21:39] <ali1234> yeah this is always the problem
[21:39] <ali1234> "we won't accept your patch unless you implement it the way we want you to, the way we already tried and failed because it is way too complicated"
[21:40] <ali1234> but at least then they won't be able to use the "it's too hard" excuse
[21:41] <AlanBell>  will in this situation I can see the logic of playing the sound file when you display the image that it goes with
[21:41] <ali1234> yes
[21:41] <ali1234> all you have to do is fix it
[21:42] <ali1234> but since it is bootloader code
[21:42] <ali1234> it will be a nightmare
[21:42] <AlanBell> or do it properly
[21:42] <ali1234> but then this is what happens when you abuse the bootloader to do more than it is supposed to do
[21:43] <ali1234> there isn't really a reason for any of this stuff to be on bootloader menus
[21:44] <AlanBell> yeah, but there it is and it is embarrassingly thoughtless
[21:44] <nucc1> guys, i'm running gnome-shell on 11.10 beta, and i can't see any window menus, what should i do?
[21:44] <AlanBell> nucc1: probably disable the global menu
[21:44] <ali1234> yes
[21:44] <nucc1> how do i do that?
[21:44] <AlanBell> or wait for it to crash
[21:45] <nucc1> lol
[21:45] <ali1234> i don't know how you disable it on 11.10
[21:45] <nucc1> how could one disable it in 11.04?
[21:45] <ali1234> i dont know that either
[21:45] <ali1234> i tried to disable it, but it wouldn't die
[21:45] <nucc1> hmmm.
[21:45] <ali1234> sometimes it goes away, sometimes it doesn't
[21:45] <ali1234> sometimes i just get a gap
[21:45] <ali1234> even though that bug has supposedly been fixed
[21:45] <ali1234> it was only fixed for firefox
[21:46] <ali1234> gotta love intrusive OS changes that require every single application ever made to be patched
[21:46] <nucc1> :(
[21:46] <ali1234> especially when there's only one guy assigned to patching them
[21:47] <nucc1> this basically means i'm still stuck with fedora :(
[21:47] <AlanBell> nucc1: not sure, but if you ask how to do that in #ubuntu+1 I expect someone will know
[21:47] <ali1234> or any of the other distros that hasn't gone insane
[21:47] <AlanBell> it used to be something like removing gnome2-globalmenu but it won't be that now
[21:47] <AlanBell> gnome3-globalmenu maybe
[21:48] <ali1234> you have to set an environment variable as well
[21:48] <ali1234> try searching on askubuntu
[21:48] <ali1234> it gets asked there about 17 times a day
[21:48] <nucc1> there's no gnome3-globalmenu
[21:49] <nucc1> there are firefox, thunderbird globalmenus
[21:50] <ali1234> anyway, what's wrong with fedora? if you want gnome-shell you will be better off, since they are basically the only distro supporting it
[21:52] <AlanBell> http://reallifemonopoly.eventbrite.com/
[21:57] <nucc1> ali1234, AlanBell solved. i had to log out, choose "gnome" as the session and log back in.
[21:57] <nucc1> works quite nicely, and i love the fancy scrollbars :)
[21:58] <nucc1> speaking of which, the one inside the xchat window isn't working for the message list
[21:58] <nucc1> :p
[21:58] <nucc1> the beta seems quite stable
[21:59]  * AlanBell installs opensuse to a usb stick
[22:00]  * TheOpenSourcerer is doing a rather large dist-upgrade to Magrat... Last time 11.10 from about a week ago.
[22:00] <AlanBell> hopefully I can prove that the bootloader can make a sound as defined in the gfxboot configuration
[22:07] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Matthew Garrett] The Android/GPL situation - http://mjg59.livejournal.com/138615.html
[22:23] <AlanBell> oh my word
[22:24] <AlanBell> oh, so gfxboot can play .mod files *very* badly through the PC speaker
[22:25] <AlanBell> it doesn't play the .wav because suse is broken and didn't include the fsfsong.wav file that it trys to call
[22:26] <AlanBell> I expect thats why cjwatson failed, wrong path or wrong sound file format silently failing and reporting no errors
[22:38] <zleap> hi
[22:41] <zleap> any star trek fans here ?
[23:04] <dwatkins> zleap: yeah
[23:12] <zleap> cool
[23:12] <zleap> you seen star trek : new voyages
[23:13] <zleap> http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/
[23:17] <zleap> dwatkins,
[23:23] <dwatkins> I have not *clicks*
[23:24] <zleap> ok
[23:24] <zleap> fan made episodes to carry onwhere the original series left off
[23:24] <dwatkins> aha I suspected as much
[23:24] <dwatkins> I hear there's going to be a new series set after Voyager
[23:24] <zleap> however they have support from paramount
[23:24] <zleap> cool
[23:25] <zleap> and someof the actors from the TOS make appearances
[23:25] <dwatkins> I like the idea of a new series, but I gather it will ignore the new 'reboot' film.
[23:25] <zleap> reboot film is that the star trek movie
[23:25] <dwatkins> the new one, I mean
[23:26] <zleap> so star trek 11
[23:26] <dwatkins> yes
[23:27] <zleap> ok
[23:27] <zleap> thanks didn't even know about that one
[23:27] <zleap> anyway worth checking out this new series
[23:27] <dwatkins> Personally I think it's an excellent film, 11.
[23:27] <zleap> all free to download etc
[23:28] <zleap> any links
[23:28] <dwatkins> what to?
[23:28] <zleap> reboot
[23:29] <dwatkins> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_(film)
[23:30] <zleap> oh thats the new star trek movie
[23:30] <zleap> the one released a few years ago
[23:30] <zleap> sorry didn't really follow what you meant,  yeah accordingto that they are contracted for more movies
[23:30] <dwatkins> yeah, I was just reading that
[23:30] <dwatkins> excellent news :)
[23:31] <zleap> yep
[23:31] <dwatkins> It's a little ambiguous what they plan to do about the timelines, what with this new series, but if you'll excuse the pun, time will tell.
[23:31] <zleap> its nice that paramount are also supporting these fan episodes
[23:31] <zleap> lol
[23:31] <dwatkins> yeah
[23:31] <zleap> as in allowing them to do it,  they even have a few of the original writers involved
[23:32] <zleap> even better its actually illigal to sell them, so they remain free
[23:32] <dwatkins> I saw there were donate buttons to help out with the production costs, which is a good way to do it
[23:32] <zleap> yeah
[23:32] <zleap> i have downloaded a few
[23:34] <dwatkins> We will be watching this shortly, thanks zleap :)
[23:35] <zleap> np
[23:35] <zleap> lets hope star trek lives long and prospers
[23:35] <zleap> to paraphrase spock i guess
[23:41] <gord> dwatkins, its a new timeline, all the events of the old timeline still played out and impact events in the new timeline, but its new and seperate

[23:42] <dwatkins> gord: so we have both existing in tandem, like the mirror universes?
[23:43] <gord> dwatkins, no not in tandem, you can't travel from one to the other or anything like that, the events in the new timeline happen *after* the events in TOS for example, because all those things had to have happened for spock to go back in time to create the new timeline
[23:58] <dwatkins> oh I see, gord - I thought they might keep the two timelines for use in different films/series in future (although originally I thought they would just use the 'new' timeline set forth in the eleventh film.
[23:58] <dwatkins> )