[01:59] <holstein> GTRsdk: o/
[01:59] <holstein> scott-upstairs, meet GTRsdk 
[01:59] <holstein> i grabbed him? from *-offtopic
[01:59] <scott-upstairs> hi GTRsdk  :)
[01:59] <GTRsdk> hey scott-upstairs 
[02:00] <holstein> GTRsdk: we were looking at icon themes not too long agon
[02:00] <holstein> ago*
[02:00] <scott-upstairs> oh cool, looking at making a new one maybe?
[02:00] <holstein> anyways... GTRsdk was talking about wanting a unit-2d ubuntustudio theme
[02:00] <holstein> and i was saying we were getting around to that at some point
[02:00] <holstein> more open-ness with the metas
[02:01] <holstein> being able to have other DE themes, and add the packages to whatever
[02:01] <holstein> down the road a bit of course...
[02:01] <holstein> anyways... GTRsdk is learning about packaging
[02:01] <holstein> scott-upstairs is the team lead GTRsdk 
[02:01] <GTRsdk> okay
[02:01] <scott-upstairs> that's sounds good but i don't know much about how themes will work across DE's, falktx probably does however
[02:01] <scott-upstairs> GTRsdk, usually i'm downstairs as ScottL
[02:02] <holstein> yup, falktx__ already made some for kxstudio for everyhing
[02:02] <scott-upstairs> GTRsdk, but it's cool learning packaging, we always do need people who can help backport too ;)
[02:02] <falktx__> the key is qtcurve
[02:02] <falktx__> qtcurve supports qt3/kde3, qt4/kde4 and gtk2
[02:03] <falktx__> no gtk3 support yet though
[02:03] <holstein> nice
[02:03] <holstein> falktx__: planned?
[02:03] <falktx__> the author did gtk3.0 support, but 3.1 changed API and broke the engine
[02:03] <falktx__> now 3.2 will break API again, so he's pissed
[02:04] <holstein> i bet
[02:04] <falktx__> "**NOTE:** The Gtk3 release has been removed, as the Gtk theme API has changed!"
[02:04] <scott-upstairs> lol, that sucks
[02:04] <falktx__> sad, but true
[02:04] <scott-upstairs> falktx__, thanks for getting the menu and lightdm updates done and uploaded
[02:04] <scott-upstairs> you rock man!
[02:05] <falktx__> sure
[02:05] <falktx__> what's left to do?
[02:07] <falktx__> I'll check later
[02:07] <falktx__> 3am and need to sleep 
[02:07] <falktx__> cya
[02:07] <scott-upstairs> falktx__, i'm not srue
[02:07] <scott-upstairs> good night :)
[02:10] <GTRsdk> I think Unity 2D can be modified to have the Ubuntu Studio theme
[02:10] <holstein> GTRsdk: im sure you can fold the current art in
[02:11] <scott-upstairs> GTRsdk, the current theme may not exist for the next release, we have plans to change it for xfce
[02:11] <scott-upstairs> it doesn't mean that the first interation won't be an exact (or as close as possible) replica
[02:11] <scott-upstairs> but we were kinda looking at making a bit of a change....a walkabout as the australians say
[02:13] <GTRsdk> scott-upstairs: are there plans to make the package names different?
[02:13] <GTRsdk> such as ubuntustudio-unity-2d?
[02:14] <scott-upstairs> GTRsdk, we could certainly make a package named as such
[02:14] <holstein> ubuntustudio-desktop-unity-2d
[02:14] <scott-upstairs> within the ubuntustudio-* packaging ecosphere we certainly have quite a bit of liberty and/or latitude
[02:15] <holstein> or whatever...
[02:15] <GTRsdk> I think I found one of the files needed to change the top bar
[02:22] <scott-upstairs> GTRsdk, i need to go downstairs and spend time with the family, but hang around here more tonight/today or later on another day
[02:22] <scott-upstairs> we'd like to talk more
[02:23] <GTRsdk> okay
[09:35] <astraljava> Thanks everyone for making beta1 happen!
[09:36] <astraljava> Over the weekend, I'll be starting to work on our branding. Thanks to falktx, it won't be a big problem, just that I haven't meddled with lightdm before, there might be interesting scenarios.
[09:37] <falktx> ;)
[12:40] <shnatsel> hi everyone
[12:42] <shnatsel> I'm the guy from https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2011-June/003391.html :)
[12:44] <shnatsel> Last time I've been here we decided that those packages should be uploaded to Debian repositories and synced from there to Ubuntu Studio. Did anyone undertake it, and if yes, what's the status of this process?
[12:45] <falktx> shnatsel: you should talk to the debian multimedia guys
[12:46] <falktx> we can't just put ppa packages into the official repos
[12:49] <shnatsel> I think I'm incompatible with Debian processes... last time I tried to report a bug, I gave up after 10 minutes of figuring out how to do it. I can hardly imagine the amount of time that would be wasted on me trying to push a package... Maybe someone more familiar with Debian processes could do it?
[12:51] <shnatsel> I'm afraid I totally suck at paperwork :(
[12:52] <astraljava> shnatsel: Hi. It was me who you talked to more in detail. But unfortunately I haven't had time so far for creating said packages conforming to Debian policies.
[12:52] <shnatsel> astraljava: so, my packages don't meet Debian policies?
[12:52] <astraljava> Other things ate up my time during the summer, and for the past few weeks I've been swamped with getting our images to become installable.
[12:53] <astraljava> shnatsel: I dunno, I just seemed to recall that's why you didn't submit them directly.
[12:53] <astraljava> Like I said,l 
[12:53] <astraljava> sorry
[12:53] <astraljava> I haven't had time to look into them at all.
[12:54] <shnatsel> yeah, I perfectly understand, I've just got rid of a similar situation
[12:54] <falktx> shnatsel: have you tried revu?
[12:54] <falktx> I got one package into ubuntu once that way
[12:55] <shnatsel> falktx: what's revu?
[12:55] <falktx> shnatsel: the official way of normal people trying to get stuff into ubuntu
[12:55] <falktx> the other way around is to get it into debian, which ubuntu will bring automatically
[12:56] <shnatsel> I'd better get it into Debian, of course
[12:57] <astraljava> Yep, that's the one I would recommend these days.
[12:57] <astraljava> Their multimedia team is excellent, I'm just joining it as soon as I'm free from the release pressure.
[12:57] <astraljava> That will of course bring the average down a bit, but *shrug*
[12:58] <astraljava> :)
[12:58] <holstein> hehe
[12:59] <shnatsel> looks like by the time the packages get into Debian, GIMP 2.8 will be released and they'll become bitrotten automatically.
[12:59] <astraljava> Oh?
[13:00] <shnatsel> of course I hope it won't be like that
[13:01] <astraljava> Why do you think they're that version-dependent?
[13:02] <falktx> shnatsel: gimp will take too long, you have at least 1 year for this
[13:03] <shnatsel> astraljava: well, GIMP Painter is a somewhat abandoned patch to GIMP 2.6, and the creator of GIMP Paint Studio hasn't figured out how to port it to 2.7.x by now.
[13:03] <falktx> shnatsel: btw, can I include your packages in the KXStudio PPAs?
[13:03] <falktx> that is always done quickly ;)
[13:04] <astraljava> shnatsel: Ahh... that sucks.
[13:04] <shnatsel> falktx: IDK what is KXStudio, but they're under GNU GPL, so I can't prohibit it even if I want :)
[13:04] <shnatsel> astraljava: and besides, Paint Studio is somewhat useless without the Painter patch.
[13:04] <falktx> shnatsel: http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net
[13:05] <falktx> and thanks
[13:05] <astraljava> shnatsel: You should have denied that! falktx IS OUR ENEMY! He's a competitor!!!!
[13:05] <astraljava> *ahem*
[13:05] <falktx> astraljava: lol, don't say that
[13:06] <astraljava> Did I type that out loud?
[13:06] <astraljava> Yeah, not really. :)
[13:06] <craigs63> heh
[13:06] <falktx> "KXStudio itself is not a linux distro; instead, users can think of it as an extension pack for other distros (currently ArchLinux and Ubuntu)"
[13:06] <falktx> astraljava: ^
[13:06] <astraljava> Yeah I know, just kidding here. :)
[13:06] <astraljava> Besides, you're doing an awesome job directly here.
[13:06] <falktx> astraljava: KXStudio actually helps UbuntuStudio, has it brings many people to Ubuntu
[13:06] <falktx> hehe, thanks
[13:07] <shnatsel> astraljava: I'll make you one more competitor if Ubuntu Studio development won't speed up a few times :) And it will have Pantheon desktop, MWAHAHA!!!1
[13:07] <astraljava> Might as well pack up the stuff and leave, then.
[13:07] <astraljava> *frown*
[13:07] <falktx> already too much distros
[13:08] <shnatsel> falktx: nooo, not again
[13:08] <astraljava> But you're dead on about the speed. We'd need more falktxs and holsteins and whatnot to get this thing really going again.
[13:08] <falktx> TangoStudio and DreamStudio are good/bad ones I guess
[13:08] <falktx> shnatsel: what?
[13:08] <falktx> TangoStudio devs don't like launchpad...
[13:08] <falktx> not sure why DreamStudio exists though
[13:09] <shnatsel> falktx: I think this is the most popular phrase in the Linux world, second only to Vim/EMACS wars
[13:09] <shnatsel> "already too much distros"
[13:09] <astraljava> Heheh. :) It's a double-edged blade, really.
[13:09] <astraljava> I'm all for the freedom of choice.
[13:09] <astraljava> But we're losing contributors.
[13:10] <shnatsel> yep, there are over 40 linux music players by now, and there's no player to rule them all.
[13:10] <astraljava> Still, I'm leaning against the former. People want to get creative, and they really should.
[13:10] <shnatsel> guys can't unite and make an uber player, everybody starts their own
[13:11] <falktx> I don't like it at all
[13:11] <holstein> eh... i wish i were a code contributor :/
[13:11] <astraljava> Doesn't make you any less of a contributor.
[13:12] <shnatsel> falktx: please notify me when the packages are copied, so I can notify the former team of my distro and cheer them up a bit
[13:13] <falktx> shnatsel: hm, your postinst has:
[13:13] <falktx> cd /etc/skel/.gimp-2.6/tool-options/
[13:13] <falktx> but I don't have that folder
[13:13] <falktx> (and I have gimp installed)
[13:13] <astraljava> holstein: I write enough code on my dayjob anyway, there's not very many lines of my code in ubuntu either. I wanna do different things as a hobby.
[13:14] <holstein> astraljava: luckily this doesnt cross too much over into my job
[13:14] <shnatsel> falktx: I'm pretty sure it creates one or something like that. I tested it on an insane number of configurations.
[13:14] <shnatsel> falktx: wait, it creates this folder
[13:14] <falktx> ah I see it
[13:14] <shnatsel> falktx: that's why it's in postinst
[13:14] <shnatsel> not preinst
[13:14] <falktx> shnatsel: I though gimp was supposed to have that
[13:15] <falktx> shnatsel: all seems ok to me, I'll upload
[13:15] <shnatsel> falktx: no, not at all. my packages are independent from GIMP folders. They create them on the fly with mkdir -p if needed (AFAIR)
[13:16] <shnatsel> the /etc/skel thing is needed for users created after installation of GPS to have it too
[13:16] <falktx> yes, I got that
[13:17] <shnatsel> actually, those are ugly workarounds of GIMP faults
[13:17] <shnatsel> GIMP has shared folders for everything but tool presets
[13:17] <falktx> shnatsel: you should not use 1.5-natty1 version though
[13:17] <falktx> use something like: 1.5-1~natty1
[13:17] <falktx> so that, once ubuntu gets the package, it will replace yours
[13:18] <shnatsel> falktx: I thought it's lower than 1.5-0ubuntu1
[13:18] <falktx> nope
[13:18] <shnatsel> grrr
[13:18] <falktx> shnatsel: letters are higher than numbers
[13:18] <falktx> 1a2 > 192
[13:18] <shnatsel> sorry on this one
[13:18] <falktx> no prob
[13:19]  * falktx is uploading gimp-studio
[13:20] <falktx> yay, amarok-kde3 working!
[13:22] <shnatsel> falktx: what about MyPaint updates and OpenRaster plugins and thumbnainers?
[13:22] <falktx> shnatsel: soon soon, let me finish this one first
[13:23] <falktx> the internet here sucks, so I have to be gentle
[13:23] <shnatsel> falktx: I just wanted to know if you're going to upload them at all or not. I'm not really concerned about the time it takes, if it's less than a week.
[13:23] <shnatsel> :)
[13:24] <falktx> shnatsel: it's probably all today, if they are not too big
[13:24] <falktx> this is a nice addition to the PPAs, thanks
[13:25] <falktx> I guess this could result in a little advertising too
[13:26] <shnatsel> yeah, it's always great to advertise those things
[13:27] <falktx> shnatsel: remember that the ppas support lucid to oneiric, so it's 4x times the upload
[13:28] <falktx> holstein: if everything is ok, you just got the mail about these packages
[13:28] <shnatsel> falktx: you can simply copy the packages using LP's web UI, no reuploading needed
[13:28] <holstein> falktx: not yet... but i bet its coming
[13:29] <falktx> shnatsel: nah, I prefer rebuild
[13:29] <shnatsel> holstein: I did that many times, works fine
[13:29] <falktx> shnatsel: it makes sure no hard-dependencies come from the old ppa
[13:29] <shnatsel> falktx: it can even copy source packages and rebuild them automatically
[13:30] <shnatsel> in the new PPA
[13:30] <falktx> well, let me point some reasons I like rebuild more
[13:31] <falktx> - version in the package (1.5-0ubuntu1~lucid1 for this one)
[13:31] <falktx> (maverick, natty and oneiric tags are auto-managed by my scripts)
[13:31] <falktx> - makes sure it got all build depencies right
[13:32] <falktx> - makes the ppa clean, so I can check whoever did the upload (copy packages doesn't show who copied them)
[13:32] <falktx> - I get a mail about new upload, but not copies
[13:32] <falktx> - it also contributes to my launchpad karma
[13:33] <falktx> shnatsel: you can easily be part of the kx team and help if you want
[13:33] <falktx> ok, all uploaded
[13:34] <falktx> now I need to do some real work in here, we'll check the other packages later today
[13:39] <falktx> shnatsel: do you have mypaint packaged?
[13:39] <falktx> oh, already in the repos, nice
[13:39] <falktx> backport can work then
[13:39] <shnatsel> falktx: yes, but it's outdated. There's an official PPA, though.
[13:40] <falktx> shnatsel: should I really care about gimp-painter ?
[13:40]  * falktx is trusting shnatsel and uploading packages 'as-is'
[13:41] <shnatsel> falktx: well, I didn't package it, but it's praised by the Sintel team (it was combined with Paint Studio there)
[13:41] <shnatsel> falktx: also, I didn't notice any bugs or regressions in it
[13:42] <falktx> you convinced with "Sintel" ;)
[13:44] <falktx> I think I have some custom gimp build somewhere... I'll postpone gimp for now
[13:52] <falktx> gimp-openraster is up
[13:52] <shnatsel> awsum!
[13:54] <shnatsel> falktx: I'm not totally sure that OpenRaster thumbnailers work well.
[13:54] <shnatsel> falktx: so you'd better test them before uploading
[13:54] <falktx> shnatsel: why doesn't ora-thumbnailer has kde support?
[13:55] <falktx> I see gnome and xfce, but no kde... :(
[13:55] <shnatsel> falktx: because I have some kind of broken dependencies on my machine or something. The KDE thing doesn't compile.
[13:56] <shnatsel> falktx: it should be fairly easy to package, though. dk_make will probably do everything you need.
[13:56] <shnatsel> falktx: oh wait, there were some tricks to do about KDE thumbnailer... I'll forward you a mail about it if you give me your address
[13:56] <falktx> shnatsel: can you prepare the package with kde version? I'll do tests and fixing
[13:57] <shnatsel> falktx: I guess dh_make will do exactly the same thing I'd do
[14:01] <falktx> then I'll try to get kde working later
[14:01] <falktx> shnatsel: what will I need?
[14:04] <shnatsel> falktx: here's the working command for compiling the KDE part, it's different from the one in README:
[14:04] <shnatsel> sudo apt-get install kdelibs5-dev cmake dolphin
[14:04] <shnatsel> cd /ora-thumbnailers/kde
[14:04] <shnatsel> cmake . -DCMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX=/usr/
[14:04] <shnatsel> make
[14:04] <shnatsel> sudo make install
[14:04] <falktx> shnatsel: I'll try it later
[14:27] <falktx> shnatsel: kde4 fixed
[14:29] <shnatsel> falktx: awesome!
[14:29] <shnatsel> falktx: where can I copy it? :)
[14:29] <falktx> shnatsel: let me upload it
[14:36] <falktx> shnatsel: done -> https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/ppa/+packages?field.name_filter=ora&field.status_filter=published&field.series_filter=
[14:37] <falktx> 5 hours to build :(
[14:39] <shnatsel> falktx: are you sure that this thing works?
[14:39] <falktx> shnatsel: it builds
[14:39] <falktx> didn't tested the real thumbnailer though
[14:39] <falktx> shnatsel: do you have some small raster images? or a link to some?
[14:40] <shnatsel> falktx: could you drop me the resulting .deb's ?
[14:40] <shnatsel> I'll make one now
[14:40] <falktx> shnatsel: I'm running oneiric, maybe it's not compatible...
[14:40] <falktx> 64bit
[14:42] <shnatsel> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5279564/helloworld.ora
[14:42] <shnatsel> this is thumbnailed correctly on my GNOME machine
[14:42] <falktx> shnatsel: raster option appear in dolhin
[14:43] <falktx> shnatsel: hand-written hello world? with white background?
[14:43] <shnatsel> yep
[14:43] <falktx> nice! it's working then
[14:43] <shnatsel> awesome!
[14:44] <shnatsel> I'll merge your changes then :) My PPA is recipe-powered.
[14:54] <falktx> need to go into arch, brb
[14:55] <astraljava> I read that as church.
[15:15] <GTRsdk|busy> I have made some changes to the appearance of all of the icons in Unity 2d.
[15:18] <scott-work> hi GTRsdk|busy , that's cool, do you have any screenshots?
[15:19] <GTRsdk|busy> I'll take some now
[15:21] <GTRsdk|busy> scott-work: I want to first find a way to get the panel changed to the color Ubuntu Studio was in Natty.
[15:22] <holstein> GTRsdk|busy: the folk in #xubuntu-devel have been *crazy* helpful
[15:24] <shnatsel> meh. the only usable unity is www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/06/gnome-manu-style-unity-dash-project-revived-adds-a-ppa/ IMHO.
[15:25] <holstein> GTRsdk|busy: actually, i was thinking you were theme-ing XFCE... sorry
[15:25] <holstein> the xubuntu-devel folk are still awesome though :)
[15:30] <GTRsdk|busy> hopefully I can get ubuntustudio-unity-2d put into a bazaar branch tomorrow
[15:30] <holstein> GTRsdk|busy: :)
[15:33] <shnatsel> GTRsdk|busy: I hope it will have a usable menu?
[15:39] <GTRsdk|busy> A usable menu? I am using 4.40
[15:40] <GTRsdk|busy> for the ubuntustudio-unity-2d
[15:40] <GTRsdk|busy> I am using an older version, and am upgrading to 4.40
[15:40] <shnatsel> GTRsdk|busy: www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/06/gnome-manu-style-unity-dash-project-revived-adds-a-ppa/
[15:41] <shnatsel> GTRsdk|busy: well, you don't think that the dash is actually usable, do you?
[15:43] <GTRsdk|busy> shnatsel: I think the new unity is more usablt
[15:43] <GTRsdk|busy> *usable
[15:44] <shnatsel> GTRsdk|busy: yeah, it's been getting better and better until the beta freeze
[15:45] <GTRsdk|busy> I made the icons look like strips of movie film, so when I view the launcher, there is this strip of movie film
[15:45] <shnatsel> buttons hidden by default for windows and *window* buttons shown by default for Dash... that's idiotic.
[15:45] <astraljava> dash? Really? Have people officially run out of application names?
[15:46] <shnatsel> astraljava: it's a piece of Unity AFAIR
[15:46] <shnatsel> astraljava: there also was an elementary experiment called Dash, it was an app
[15:46] <astraljava> I understand that. dash is also a shell.
[15:46] <shnatsel> astraljava: hmm?
[15:46] <astraljava> $ ln -s /bin/sh
[15:46] <astraljava> Unless you've changed it.
[15:47] <astraljava> ln -l, of course
[15:47] <astraljava> grr
[15:47] <shnatsel> ah!
[15:47] <astraljava> ls -l
[15:47] <astraljava> :D
[15:47] <shnatsel> right.
[15:48] <shnatsel> I found it earlier, and forgot again. Shame on me XD
[15:48] <shnatsel> We've been investigating FISH in elementary, so I've investigated all that stuff
[15:49] <astraljava> Ok.
[16:03] <GTRsdk|busy> scott-work: I think the newer version will work better
[16:11] <scott-work> good
[16:19] <GTRsdk> scott-work: is the default wallpaper ubuntustudio-olis.jpg ?
[16:20] <scott-work> GTRsdk: i don't think so, is that the one with a bunch of white sextagons or octagons creating a room ?
[16:20] <scott-work> or is that the one with a bunch of out of focused lights?
[16:21] <GTRsdk> the white sexagons
[16:22] <GTRsdk> scott-work: then is ubuntustudio-gutsy.png (the out of focus lights) the default wallpaper?
[16:23] <astraljava> Are we talking theming/branding for oneiric now?
[16:23] <scott-work> astraljava: i believe so
[16:23] <scott-work> GTRsdk: the white sexagons is the currently wallpaper for natty
[16:24] <scott-work> we haven't really decided what will be for oneiric, therefore by default it will probably be the same
[16:24] <astraljava> Unless we can come up with something as cool as the sexagons, I'd say let's keep it at least until 12.04
[16:26] <craigs63> I hope sexagons is a translation difference  :-)
[16:26] <astraljava> -+
[16:26] <astraljava> Sorry, dog went wild.
[16:27] <astraljava> craigs63: I am just following scott-work's example. :) No idea if that's correct or not.
[16:27] <astraljava> I have faith in him, though. :)
[16:29] <craigs63> I just volunteered here to pick nits, anyway...
[16:29] <astraljava> That's the best hobby, anyhoo!
[16:30] <craigs63> six sides = hexagon 
[16:30] <astraljava> Hahah!
[16:30] <craigs63> Don't try to make english make sense
[16:30] <paultag> sixagon, duh
[16:30] <astraljava> Oh well, I like the first one better. It's sexier.
[16:31] <shnatsel> astraljava: I've been typing exactly the same
[16:31] <craigs63> It looks like Superman's fortress sort of.
[16:31] <astraljava> What, sexagon? I thought he was an asexual being.
[16:32] <craigs63> the white picture with the crystal shape things
[16:32] <astraljava> And yeah I know he had a "girlfriend", one he never probably "touched."
[16:32] <craigs63> Yeah read "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex"
[16:33] <astraljava> Yeah I know. I'm just trying to exercise my (granted, poor) sense of humour.
[16:33] <paultag> 16:32 < craigs63> Yeah read "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex"
[16:33] <paultag> Ha!!!!
[16:33] <paultag> BRB, for real
[16:33] <astraljava> paultag: I've been waiting for that.
[16:33] <astraljava> We've missed ya.
[16:33] <scott-work> yeah, i screw up that :P
[16:33] <scott-work> seven sides are sectagons i believe
[16:34] <scott-work> but i was sure they polygons were either 6 or 8 sided
[16:34] <scott-work> or is it sextagons are 7 sided
[16:34] <scott-work> yes, i think it is sextagons, not sectagons
[16:34] <astraljava> How many vertices in a sextagon?
[16:34] <astraljava> There is no polygon with this name. 
[16:34] <scott-work> but irrelevant since the ones in the image are either six or eight
[16:35] <scott-work> i believe it is seven sided
[16:35] <astraljava> I don't care, it says so in Teh Interwebz!!
[16:35] <scott-work> eh, google says its hectagon
[16:35] <scott-work> *shrug* oh well
[16:35] <craigs63> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptagon
[16:36] <craigs63> I didn't mean to cause a war!
[16:55] <astraljava> Oh well, after the beta1 struggles, it was getting a bit too silent around here. :)
[16:57] <GTRsdk> scott-work: is there going to be a LiveDVD installer for Oneiric?
[16:59] <scott-work> GTRsdk: i don't think this will happen for oneiric, perhaps for oneiric + 1
[17:04] <astraljava> For sure. We're already in beta1, and we haven't tested it once.
[17:05] <astraljava> We have enough work to do on the installer-only image.
[17:07] <paultag> astraljava: I've missed ya'll too :)
[17:07] <shnatsel> I can make the LiveDVD.
[17:07] <paultag> astraljava: sadly, I'm so swamped, I hardly have time to process email :'(
[17:08] <astraljava> paultag: I hear ya. I'm as sad not having time for syn :(
[17:08] <shnatsel> It's damn simple if everything is done right, and if we bundle all the apps in it.
[17:08] <shnatsel> It's a bit more complex if we install only the parts the user chooses.
[17:08] <paultag> astraljava: it's ok, we're mostly frozenish to do package work
[17:09] <shnatsel> but edubuntu devs have been through that already
[17:09] <astraljava> shnatsel: If you have time for it, that's great! I doubt we'll get it in for oneiric anymore, though, but working towards the LTS is very much appreciated and welcomed!
[17:10] <shnatsel> I have too much plans for elementary lts and stuff. And I'm trying to finally organize my own life a bit, to stop being a hacking machine. But yes, I think I'll find time to do it.
[17:11] <astraljava> No worries. We will welcome it, for sure, but it's not _needed_.
[17:11] <scott-work> shnatsel: yes, that would be awesome!
[17:12] <scott-work> shnatsel: or at least share notes and mentor sometime to do it 
[17:13] <shnatsel> do you have workflow guidelines, do you use launchpad blueprints, etc?
[17:13] <shnatsel> it helps us to organize the workflow a lot in elementary project
[17:13] <scott-work> shnatsel: not really, i've thought about doing it but it takes time that i don't want to invest right now
[17:13] <scott-work> i would like tough
[17:13] <scott-work> though
[17:14] <shnatsel> scott-work: I have already made one for elementary: elementaryos.org/journal/how-see-what’s-our-sleeves
[17:14] <shnatsel> scott-work: it should be easy to adapt it for ubuntu studio
[17:15] <astraljava> scott-work: See, those are the reasons why we should probably have at least bi-weekly meetings for the 12.04 devel cycle.
[17:15] <astraljava> We need to attack immediately when that cycle begins.
[17:15] <astraljava> Focus on the right things right from the beginning, and then work towards implementation when the plans are ready.
[17:16] <astraljava> I'm getting pumped up already. :D
[17:16] <astraljava> But I guess we need to ship 11.10 first.
[17:17] <shnatsel> we already have a plenty of blueprints for 12.04 cycle in elementary
[17:17] <shnatsel> that's OK IMHO
[17:17] <scott-work> what's okay shnatsel ?
[17:18] <shnatsel> to have blueprints targeted at future releases
[17:18] <scott-work> ah, gotcha
[17:18] <shnatsel> investigated before even shipping the current release
[17:18] <shnatsel> googling and dreaming is not THAT distracting
[17:19] <shnatsel> but it's inspiring
[17:19] <astraljava> Sure. And we'd need to have people in UDS for that as well. Unfortunately, I couldn't do that this time around.
[17:44] <shnatsel> Something tells me that ubuntu studio needs a new logo.
[17:44] <shnatsel> For the LTS.
[17:45] <shnatsel> I guess you should ask thorwil to take care of it... http://thorwil.wordpress.com/category/logos/ (he's very busy right now though)
[17:52] <scott-work> shnatsel: i've talked to him before and he didn't see very receptive to helping ubuntu studio....
[17:52] <shnatsel> I see
[17:52] <scott-work> but then again one of the team wasn't a little critical towards him
[17:52] <scott-work> so i can't blame thorwil for that
[17:52] <scott-work> wait
[17:52] <scott-work> s/wasn't/was
[17:53] <scott-work> one of the team WAS a little critical
[17:53] <scott-work> i would love to have a new logo, something quite a bit different since ubuntu studio is changing quite a bit, especially over the last year or so
[17:55] <GTRsdk> scott-work: are the default applications going to stay the same?
[17:55] <shnatsel> Is MyPaint included in the artistic set?
[17:56] <scott-work> GTRsdk:  the application set will not change for oneiric from the beta1 image, although there may be some changes for oneiric+1
[17:56] <scott-work> shnatsel: not currently, we were basing the application set based on work flows
[17:57] <shnatsel> scott-work: MyPaint is a perfect sketching app
[17:57] <scott-work> shnatsel: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
[17:58] <scott-work> shnatsel: i have been trying to avoid including applications "just because" (not to slag mypaint or your suggestions)
[17:58] <shnatsel> hmm, great doc
[17:58] <scott-work> but i want to make sure it really supports our users
[17:58] <shnatsel> MyPaint and Alchemy can be included in almost any artistic workflow
[17:59] <scott-work> too often i hear we should include an application and when pressed they can't quite explain what the purpose of the applications is in regards to a user
[18:00] <shnatsel> Alchemy is designed for artistic brainstorming. It can be used in making almost anything.
[18:01] <shnatsel> MyPaint is designed for sketching the basic idea or real media imitation
[18:01] <shnatsel> so whatever you do, it's a good idea to sketch in it first
[18:01] <scott-work> shnatsel: sorry, was interrupted by real work 
[18:02] <shnatsel> scott-work: I didn't notice that
[18:02] <scott-work> i'm not oppossed to incorporating additional applications and i would greatly love to develop a robust graphical and video application set
[18:03] <scott-work> i have played with alchemy myself but it seemed to be not developed anymore, do you know if it is in the ubuntu repositories?
[18:03] <shnatsel> I think it's not, or it's outdated. And it seems to be actively developed.
[18:03] <scott-work> that was a silly question, heh, if i played wiht it then it must have been in the repos :/
[18:04] <scott-work> oh no, i remember, i watched a video of a famour artist creating stuff, was a very long video but very good and interesting
[18:04] <scott-work> not sure it's in the repos then
[18:05] <scott-work> i cannot find alchemy in the repos but there is a bug to get it into debian though
[18:06] <scott-work> shnatsel: would it be possible for you to create a workflow for using mypaint?  i would appreciate that
[18:06] <shnatsel> MyPaint is in the repos (probably outdated, but still in there)
[18:07] <shnatsel> scott-work: the "sketching images" workflow is insane.
[18:07] <shnatsel> scott-work: sketching in Inkscape is hardly sane for an artist
[18:07] <shnatsel> scott-work: So, s/Inkscape/MyPaint/g in that one
[18:08] <scott-work> heh, i don't remember "sketching images" being in there
[18:08] <shnatsel> scott-work: it's the first one
[18:08] <shnatsel> scott-work: design a brand - same thing, sketching in MyPaint or on paper is essential
[18:09] <shnatsel> afk bbiab
[18:09] <scott-work> ah yes, i remember that one, doctormo helped with those
[18:09] <shnatsel> <personal opinion> doctormo rocks </personal opinion>
[18:25] <shnatsel> back
[18:26] <shnatsel> I'm talking with the dev of that ubiquity modules thing in #edubuntu right now
[18:26] <shnatsel> where should I write down the docs?
[18:35] <scott-work> shnatsel: whatever medium is best for you
[18:35] <scott-work> wiki page is fine, or type a word doc and sent it to me or the ubuntustudio-devel mailing list
[18:36] <shnatsel> scott-work: google docs?
[18:36] <scott-work> sure :)
[18:36] <shnatsel> OK
[18:37] <scott-work> shnatsel: if we could get a live dvd that would be exceptionally awesome and other superlatives
[19:19] <shnatsel> gtg
[19:19] <shnatsel> I'll be back
[21:57]  * astraljava wonders why it is so important for studio to have a livedvd. Everything we provide can be tested on vanilla live by installing the metas. We're already spread really thin as it is.
[22:02] <GTRSDK|busy> astraljava: livedvds are nice
[22:03] <astraljava> GTRSDK|busy: As are unicorns.
[22:03] <astraljava> Is there a real rationale?
[22:03] <GTRSDK|busy> astraljava: there is not livedvd available yet
[22:04] <astraljava> It doesn't take that long to install the metapackages after booting up to the vanilla, as opposed to loading up over half of the dvd.
[22:04] <astraljava> GTRSDK|busy: I know. For a reason.
[22:05] <GTRSDK|busy> true, but if someone is running from USB, the load time can be decent
[22:05] <astraljava> GTRSDK|busy: I'm asking, is there a serious reason for a studio livedvd, for realz?!
[22:05] <GTRSDK|busy> astraljava: for testing studio
[22:05] <GTRSDK|busy> astraljava: similar why there is a livecd for most of the other derivatives, and a livedvd
[22:06] <astraljava> Okay. The only reason I can think of for testing the stuff is the kernel.
[22:06] <astraljava> Is that enough to justify a whole new image?
[22:07] <astraljava> -generic isn't _that_ far off from -lowlatency, anymore.
[22:07] <astraljava> Nobody's going to do serious business out of a livedvd anyhoo,
[22:07] <GTRSDK|busy> that would justify enough for me to build a DVD image
[22:08] <astraljava> so really, _just_ for testing?
[22:08] <GTRSDK|busy> I am not sure how to build one
[22:08] <GTRSDK|busy> astraljava: and GUI install
[22:08] <astraljava> GTRSDK|busy: How many installs have you done from both, separately?
[22:09] <ScottL> astraljava, mainly PR for those who might switch and new to linux
[22:10] <astraljava> ScottL: Would Studio be their first linux experience outside of the World of Point 'n' Click?
[22:11] <astraljava> Please note, I'm not totally against it. I'm against having to spread the already thin contributor force that we have between two images.
[22:11] <astraljava> They don't come cheap, you know.
[22:11] <astraljava> ubiquity is a whole 'nother beast.
[22:13] <astraljava> If we actually got new resources for that image alone, I'd be thrilled.
[22:13] <GTRSDK|busy> under 2GB would be nice
[22:14] <astraljava> So far, we are under that.
[22:14] <astraljava> I don't think expanding to the live version takes us over the 'limit'.
[22:14] <astraljava> ubiquity takes around a few tens of megabytes, AFAIK.
[22:15] <GTRSDK|busy> daily-live probably would
[22:15] <ScottL> GTRSDK|busy, yes, we've actually cut back slightly over the last few releases due to trying to follow the 'work flows' approach
[22:15] <ScottL> but i would really like to even minimize what we currently have, but i don't think that will happen
[22:15] <astraljava> GTRSDK|busy: Are the dependencies that big, actually?
[22:15] <ScottL> but we definitely want to watch out that we don't grow much mroe
[22:16] <astraljava> ubuntu daily-live is currently 695M, while the daily is 674M.
[22:17] <GTRSDK|busy> astraljava: having two images
[22:17] <astraljava> Why would it bloat _that_ much more for us?
[22:17] <astraljava> GTRSDK|busy: having two images ____ ?
[22:17] <ScottL> we are still pulling in some kde apps but not as bad as before though
[22:18] <GTRSDK|busy> astraljava: having two images created daily or per each release would take more space
[22:18] <GTRSDK|busy> astraljava: server space
[22:18] <ScottL> astraljava, i say PR for the live disc because i think there are people who would take it and show it off at cons if we had a live media
[22:18] <astraljava> GTRSDK|busy: Server space is irrelevant. Canonical hosts our images. We need not to think about that.
[22:18] <ScottL> i've been told that a few times
[22:19] <ScottL> hi falktx 
[22:19] <GTRSDK|busy> astraljava: true
[22:20] <astraljava> ScottL: Okay, if we wanna seriously pursue that route, then fine. Just be aware of the load it takes on our productivity regarding the overall product.
[22:21] <astraljava> ScottL: Currently, there are three developers who consistently tend the creation of the end product. Two more that care about theming and documentation.
[22:22] <astraljava> None of which can spare more than mere hours daily.
[22:22] <astraljava> Mere hours being less than three.
[22:22] <astraljava> Seriously, that's not enough for two images.
[22:23] <astraljava> Unless we got more horsepower, we can't scale.
[22:32] <astraljava> Again, if I seem to be coming off too strong re: livedvd, it's only due to reflecting it against the manpower at hand at the moment.
[22:32] <astraljava> If we got more active contributors, we could divide the responsibilities.
[22:33] <GTRSDK|busy> astraljava: I should find out how to build an iso
[22:33] <astraljava> But we have to keep in mind, that it's not just about creating the beast. It's also about supporting it. Especially for LTS releases. That takes 3 years. Are _you_ seriously ready to commit to that?
[22:35] <astraljava> GTRSDK|busy: If you really want to, talk to falktx. He's got it going for fxstudio.
[22:35] <astraljava> or is it fkstudio, I forget.
[22:35] <astraljava> He's willing to get it going for Studio as well.
[22:36] <craigs63> I thought it was KXStudio ?
[22:36] <astraljava> Problem is, he's got his "derivative" (in lack of a better term) because he feels the standard ubuntu way is too rigid.
[22:36] <astraljava> It's a little hard to build on such foundation.
[22:36] <astraljava> craigs63: Thanks, that's it.
[23:20] <ScottL> sorry, been talking with family about going to dinner
[23:21] <ScottL> astraljava, falktx was committing to creating a live image that he would create, it would be a "community within a community" supported