| === Owner_ is now known as favrenation | ||
| Cheesehead | Brainstorm Jam begins in four hours | 13:06 |
|---|---|---|
| lostson | wish I was gonna be around but got to work | 13:56 |
| Cheesehead | lostson: We'll miss you. | 14:12 |
| Cheesehead | Two confirmed gonna-miss-it so far. | 14:12 |
| Cheesehead | But what do I expect midday of a holiday weekend? | 14:13 |
| lostson | yeah unfortunately i am on a 12 day run of work and the storm that just ripped through this county didnt help either | 14:13 |
| Cheesehead | More storms on the way today... | 14:14 |
| lostson | hopefully not as bad today | 14:14 |
| * Cheesehead hopes for the largest turnout tomorrow for the IRC Bug Jam at noon CDT | 14:16 | |
| lostson | yeah i wanted to get in on that one bigtime i love doing stuff like that | 14:16 |
| Cheesehead | You know, if there is interest enough, we can *always* do a second session of these events | 14:17 |
| Cheesehead | Just propose a time | 14:17 |
| lostson | thats true | 14:17 |
| Cheesehead | The way I structure stuff works best with three or more people, since there is a lot of discussion. | 14:18 |
| Cheesehead | So we need an alternate time, and (ideally) two other participants | 14:20 |
| * Cheesehead sent an e-mail reminder of the Brainstorm Jam | 14:27 | |
| lostson | just got it | 14:33 |
| lostson | i will have to read the logs when I get back and catch up tonight after work | 14:33 |
| lostson | well time to get ready for work hope you all have fun today and get a great turnout! | 14:47 |
| Cheesehead | lostson: Thanks. | 14:48 |
| h00k | hi | 15:22 |
| h00k | I'm on my phone | 15:23 |
| h00k | Cheesehead, lostson | 15:39 |
| h00k | hanging out in # ubuntu-locoteams, too | 15:43 |
| Cheesehead | Brainstorm Triage Jam will begin in this channel at 1700 UTC (1200 CDT). http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1177/detail/ | 16:11 |
| h00k | hiii | 16:13 |
| h00k | ntop | 16:13 |
| h00k | bah | 16:13 |
| Cheesehead | stop ntopping me | 16:13 |
| h00k | heh | 16:13 |
| h00k | trying to change topic | 16:14 |
| h00k | bad idea on mobile | 16:14 |
| * Cheesehead goes off to load the dishwasher | 16:14 | |
| h00k | Did you see the email I sent? | 16:15 |
| Cheesehead | The one that said you wouldn't be around? | 16:15 |
| Cheesehead | The one that said you love your *family* more than a bunch of anonymous internet geeks? | 16:16 |
| h00k | lol | 16:16 |
| h00k | yrp! | 16:16 |
| h00k | yep! | 16:16 |
| Cheesehead | No. I haven't seen it. | 16:16 |
| h00k | I | 16:17 |
| h00k | http://planet.ubuntu.com/ | 16:17 |
| h00k | there we are | 16:18 |
| h00k | ok. may lose service | 16:18 |
| h00k | apostle islands :D | 16:18 |
| h00k | good luck, maybe I'LL be able top attend | 16:19 |
| Cheesehead | h00k: Thanks. I think we'll hace a good time. | 16:24 |
| Cheesehead | Brainstorm Triage Jam will begin in this channel in 5 min. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1177/detail/ | 16:55 |
| Cheesehead | Training session will be in this channel. Non-training triage will be in #ubuntu-brainstorm | 16:56 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: Thanks for the info | 16:56 |
| Cheesehead | Hello, everyone here for the Brainstorm Triage Jam. | 17:01 |
| Cheesehead | Activity in this channel is logged - you can get the logs at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/03/%23ubuntu-us-wi#t17:00 | 17:01 |
| Cheesehead | Let's see how many participants we have here. Could everyone active in this channel please give a response? | 17:01 |
| yotux | Here | 17:01 |
| Cheesehead | Anyone else for the Brainstorm Jam? | 17:02 |
| crog | I'll come along for the ride | 17:02 |
| Cheesehead | Welcome abord | 17:03 |
| Cheesehead | aborad | 17:03 |
| Cheesehead | ab...you know what i mean | 17:03 |
| crog | yeah | 17:03 |
| Cheesehead | Anyone want the long lecure about what Brainstorm is, what it does, and how it helps Ubuntu (dafault =no) | 17:04 |
| * Cheesehead curses his fumbly fingers | 17:04 | |
| Cheesehead | There are three goals here today: | 17:04 |
| Cheesehead | 1) Meet new people and have fun | 17:04 |
| Cheesehead | 2) Learn more about how the various projects/teams/communities work together | 17:04 |
| Cheesehead | 3) Figure out how the next step for some ideas to improve Ubuntu. | 17:04 |
| Cheesehead | All abilities are welcome, no experience necessary. | 17:04 |
| yotux | ok | 17:05 |
| Cheesehead | yotux: What do you feel your strengths are in Ubuntu? | 17:05 |
| Cheesehead | (crog, you get the same question next) | 17:05 |
| yotux | I have send some bug reports, I try and run alphas, try and support the corp side of con. | 17:06 |
| Cheesehead | Wonderful. Crog? | 17:06 |
| crog | used since about 05 - know my way around package management pretty well | 17:06 |
| crog | haven't any experience directly with packaging however | 17:06 |
| Cheesehead | Let's take a look at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/26681/ | 17:07 |
| Cheesehead | Give you a moment to read it... | 17:08 |
| crog | hmmm - I guess I mostly agree w/ Soln 3 - | 17:08 |
| yotux | I second that | 17:09 |
| crog | but what I think would really help with this is if a tool could seamlessly manage backups/restores | 17:09 |
| Cheesehead | Question: Is the problem really a problem at all? | 17:09 |
| crog | or if there is a way to "try out" a setting first. | 17:09 |
| crog | Cheesehead: good question | 17:10 |
| yotux | I think that it is not a problem | 17:10 |
| yotux | if your are playing in etc files you should already know the dangers | 17:10 |
| Cheesehead | Perhaps this user hosed an /etc file, and didn't know how to reinstall? | 17:10 |
| crog | in a typical *nix env - this is setup by an admin for you | 17:11 |
| Cheesehead | ...the package | 17:11 |
| yotux | when using the cmd user are always suggested to rename to .bak' | 17:11 |
| crog | but in a desktop environment - the noob becomes the admin | 17:11 |
| crog | Whether they have the experience or not. | 17:11 |
| Cheesehead | If they are new, is it likely they will be playing in /etc? | 17:12 |
| crog | yotux: yeah - that's the way to do it. I could envision a gui that does that for you. | 17:12 |
| crog | Cheesehead: probably no | 17:12 |
| yotux | when new to a os -- maybe find a mentor before running into cmd? | 17:12 |
| Cheesehead | If I were in a help forum, I would tell the user to apt-get reinstall the package. That should solve the problem, no? | 17:13 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: I don't think etc is the first stop | 17:13 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: not | 17:13 |
| yotux | that command doesn't purge config files does it? | 17:14 |
| Cheesehead | True, but apt-get purge foo; apt-get install foo should do it. | 17:14 |
| Cheesehead | Also, to hose an /etc file, wouldn't they need to be abusing sudo? | 17:14 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: yes | 17:15 |
| crog | Cheesehead: yes and yes | 17:15 |
| Cheesehead | This happens a lot in Brainstorm - "somebody else" should write a GUI... | 17:15 |
| Cheesehead | that replaces a simple command line | 17:16 |
| crog | Cheesehead: So - we have different ideas, but generally agree this isn't a problem | 17:16 |
| crog | Cheesehead: there are ways it could be made more noob friendly - but probably not the resources to focus on this right now | 17:16 |
| Cheesehead | Agreed. I will mark it so a bit later. | 17:16 |
| crog | Cheesehead: ultimately, what's the goal of our triage? | 17:17 |
| Cheesehead | Good question... | 17:17 |
| Cheesehead | If you fellows were noobs, it would be to train you about how Ubuntu works... | 17:17 |
| Cheesehead | but instead, let me cut-and-paste a better goal: | 17:17 |
| Cheesehead | HOW YOU ARE HELPING: Some ideas don't belong in Brainstorm. You are helping teach those submitters the correct venue, and teaching them more about Ubuntu. | 17:18 |
| Cheesehead | You are starting them down the yellow brick road. | 17:18 |
| Cheesehead | Also, you are contributing to the real ideas that need solutions and comments. | 17:18 |
| Cheesehead | Finally, you are making the Technical Board's job easier. They shouldn't need to wade through bugs and wishes to find real issues. | 17:18 |
| * Cheesehead didn't know he could type that fast! | 17:18 | |
| crog | Given this isn't a bug, it's a wish - and "brainstorm" connotes a place to make improvement suggestions - it's probably where I would have thought something like this belonged. | 17:19 |
| crog | I wouldn't file a bug | 17:19 |
| crog | I suppose I would try a bit of googling and forums before posting here thought | 17:19 |
| Cheesehead | I think we agreed it's not a bug... | 17:19 |
| crog | though | 17:19 |
| Cheesehead | but it's not really a problem either... | 17:19 |
| Cheesehead | in this case, the submitter probably can't come up with a valid use case... | 17:20 |
| Cheesehead | so there's not much for a developer wot work with. | 17:20 |
| crog | ahhh - good point | 17:20 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: To me it came to self accountability | 17:20 |
| Cheesehead | yotux: Precisely. | 17:21 |
| Cheesehead | Let's look at a fresh one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28471/ | 17:21 |
| Cheesehead | One goal of triage is to direct the submitter to the most appropriate venue. | 17:22 |
| Cheesehead | How are they supposed to know if nobody tells them? | 17:22 |
| yotux | I think that this would be something to bring up in the art work group? | 17:23 |
| Cheesehead | Possibly, though they deal with static stuff. | 17:23 |
| Cheesehead | Fade is more likely a light-dm or compiz issue, I should think. | 17:23 |
| crog | I guess I'm at a loss with this one... | 17:24 |
| crog | yeah - I was thinking compiz | 17:24 |
| yotux | ok | 17:24 |
| Cheesehead | So, essentailly, 'Go talk to compiz about it' | 17:25 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: since its already a feature we should not need to create a duplicate feature | 17:26 |
| Cheesehead | Agreed | 17:26 |
| yotux | by feature I mean it is something we can already do | 17:26 |
| Cheesehead | Another reason for them to talk to Compiz, I read this as a refinement of the existing login | 17:27 |
| Cheesehead | rather than a new feature | 17:27 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: thanks we are thinking along the same lines | 17:27 |
| Cheesehead | I must spend a few minutes googling a Compiz point of contact to refer them to...later | 17:27 |
| Cheesehead | crog, what do you think? | 17:28 |
| crog | If I didn't know there was a piece of software called "compiz" that handles the visual stuff | 17:28 |
| crog | And my system didn't already display this behavior | 17:28 |
| crog | I probalby wouldn't know where to look | 17:28 |
| crog | So it's back to what you said ont he last one | 17:28 |
| crog | Its an opportunity to reply and try to educate | 17:29 |
| yotux | I agree | 17:29 |
| Cheesehead | Agreed | 17:29 |
| Cheesehead | http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28468/ | 17:29 |
| Cheesehead | I thought this one was interesting | 17:30 |
| Cheesehead | Streches your brain a bit doesn't it? | 17:30 |
| crog | I'm not sure I understand - doesn't that require a cell tower or GPS? | 17:30 |
| crog | Is the person working on a tablet? | 17:31 |
| Cheesehead | Siderial time merely requires a clock and an ephemeris | 17:31 |
| Cheesehead | Or algorithms to simulate an ephemeris | 17:32 |
| Cheesehead | Or...a sundial | 17:32 |
| yotux | your solution makes sense, I would say it needs to be updated to work with current software set | 17:33 |
| crog | I guess I was confusing this (which I don't quite understnd) with a location-based service | 17:33 |
| yotux | crog: location base can also you ip addresses | 17:34 |
| crog | Yeah - you post helps some developer who can pick up the algorithm (already done), and make it work in Unity | 17:34 |
| yotux | I agress with crog | 17:35 |
| Cheesehead | Clarification: Sidereal time (solar time) is the time shown by a sundial instead of a clock | 17:35 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: could / should one refer the submitter to the current package manager of the package? | 17:35 |
| Cheesehead | Well, would that help the submitter? | 17:36 |
| yotux | I say yes | 17:36 |
| Cheesehead | What does the submitter want (in simple terms?) | 17:36 |
| crog | submitter want's an app | 17:36 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: he wants a package that exist, but is not current | 17:36 |
| crog | current package maintainer may not be insterested in "porting" | 17:37 |
| Cheesehead | The package is current, just incompatible with his chosen desktop environment | 17:37 |
| yotux | I am not sure how much unity is be cross ported to XFCE and others | 17:37 |
| Cheesehead | So, is this an App request, a porting request, or something else? | 17:38 |
| yotux | I would vote porting | 17:38 |
| Cheesehead | And is this something the submitter needs to do more legwork on, or is this ready for a developer to tackle? | 17:39 |
| yotux | Submitter needs to do leg work and possibly make a follow up post | 17:39 |
| Cheesehead | What kind of legwork? | 17:39 |
| yotux | I would start by contacting the current package maintainer, see if there is an interest in porting | 17:40 |
| Cheesehead | That is a good start. | 17:40 |
| yotux | From there its up to the submitter were he want to take it | 17:41 |
| Cheesehead | What about extracting the LMT algorithms to a separate lib? | 17:41 |
| crog | from a dev point of view, that's the most useful | 17:41 |
| crog | you could incorporate that into other apps, or build your own gui | 17:42 |
| Cheesehead | I see two approaches, taken together: | 17:42 |
| yotux | could do this, but it may be beyond their skill set | 17:42 |
| Cheesehead | Approach the package maintainer about the posibility of a port or lib-creation | 17:42 |
| Cheesehead | And approach Unity about the adding the feature if such a port or lib became available | 17:43 |
| yotux | agreed | 17:43 |
| Cheesehead | The submitter's role is 100% leadership and cajoling, it seems to me. | 17:44 |
| yotux | Since it does exist yes I agree | 17:45 |
| crog | may be off topic - who is the "typical submitter" in brainstorm? | 17:47 |
| Cheesehead | Great question | 17:47 |
| Cheesehead | Often a new user. | 17:47 |
| Cheesehead | But sometimes highly experienced or a developer. | 17:47 |
| Cheesehead | New users ideas tend toward "create a big new application" | 17:47 |
| Cheesehead | or "make it more like what I was used to on Win/OSX" | 17:48 |
| komputes | Hello to all from Montreal | 17:48 |
| Cheesehead | hey, komputes1 | 17:48 |
| Cheesehead | hey, komputes! | 17:48 |
| yotux | hello, komputes | 17:48 |
| Cheesehead | Okay, next one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28474/ | 17:48 |
| komputes | yotux: sup Nathan | 17:49 |
| crog | Cheesehead: sorry - it's not loading for me... | 17:51 |
| Cheesehead | checking... | 17:51 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: This is a large and interesting goal | 17:51 |
| Cheesehead | works for me. Perhaps the server was briefly busy. | 17:52 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: There needs to be allot of legal work for the submitter | 17:52 |
| Cheesehead | Well, I suspect Canonical and Google would want to hammer out the legal details themselves. | 17:53 |
| crog | I don' know google docs | 17:53 |
| yotux | Google, canonical would have to agree to share api resources | 17:53 |
| Cheesehead | yotux: That's a great comment, though. I hadn't thought of it. | 17:53 |
| Cheesehead | yotux: Yeah, so there's a contract involved | 17:54 |
| Cheesehead | Would Google be interested in such a deal? | 17:54 |
| Cheesehead | What would Google get out of it? | 17:54 |
| yotux | Google docs is changing API allot, ubuntu 1 is corp baby (project) | 17:54 |
| yotux | both services offer storage space for sale | 17:54 |
| crog | is having them synced without a PC core to the suggestion? | 17:55 |
| Cheesehead | crog: I read it so. | 17:55 |
| crog | I'd consider writing some sort of script/app to talk to both services, and put in in cron | 17:55 |
| Cheesehead | Excellent workaround! | 17:55 |
| yotux | crog: they want to have all things synced between servers | 17:55 |
| yotux | crog: my read was they don't want to have to sync services with local machine | 17:56 |
| Cheesehead | Beyond talking to Ubuntu One to convince them to miestone such a feature, is there really anything else the submitter can do? | 17:56 |
| crog | Ok - so as before - it's hard for a dev to act on this one | 17:56 |
| yotux | yes agreed | 17:57 |
| Cheesehead | Since there are some rich comments (legal, API changes, etc), | 17:57 |
| yotux | I see the only option for submitter is to ask | 17:57 |
| Cheesehead | I'm tempted to leave this open for a month or so and see what other comments come in | 17:57 |
| Cheesehead | That's one of the benefits of Brainstorm | 17:58 |
| * Cheesehead stands up and stretches his brain | 17:59 | |
| Cheesehead | Ah, good. I had a kink in that right frontal lobe. | 17:59 |
| Cheesehead | Next: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28453/ | 17:59 |
| yotux | This is a OEM type install question | 18:02 |
| yotux | I have never used this install case but it would fall into that area / Team | 18:02 |
| Cheesehead | Yes. How does Ubuntu currently handle such? | 18:03 |
| yotux | When I download the image it installed a lang pack | 18:03 |
| Cheesehead | This kind of request pops up every year or so | 18:04 |
| Cheesehead | It's generally a new-user | 18:04 |
| Cheesehead | 'Make it like it was on Win/OSX' | 18:04 |
| yotux | Not sure how to configure packages and system with lang pack installed | 18:04 |
| yotux | It could be refereed to the OEM team but that not our pack. Submitter needs to ask OEM install team | 18:05 |
| Cheesehead | Since System76 manages to sell systems with Ubuntu installed, is this really an issue? | 18:05 |
| yotux | No | 18:05 |
| Cheesehead | I suspect we don;t know enough about what the user *really* wants | 18:05 |
| Cheesehead | Is the user really an OEM? | 18:05 |
| yotux | and if so should he not spend his own resources | 18:06 |
| crog | Yeah - I was trying to guess what he wanted to do with this. | 18:06 |
| crog | yotux: that's exactly what I thought | 18:06 |
| yotux | so ask for more info and make a more informed not an issue | 18:06 |
| komputes | Cheesehead: I would change the rationale here to, there is no easy way to install Ubuntu OEM (preinstall). Then in the Solution put 1) make OEM image release 2) use a flag on ubiquity to make it run in OEM mode | 18:06 |
| Cheesehead | Very possible. But still, do we have a use case to justify developer time? | 18:07 |
| komputes | Cheesehead: currently, I'm being told, that the alternate disk has this option already | 18:07 |
| Cheesehead | There we go! | 18:07 |
| * Cheesehead laughs | 18:08 | |
| komputes | Cheesehead: when you boot the CD, press a key to bring up the menu, then I think it's F6 to get the menu which says OEM install | 18:09 |
| Cheesehead | Man, whenever you're around I *learn things* | 18:09 |
| yotux | komputes: its something like that | 18:09 |
| Cheesehead | You guys are filling my brain! | 18:09 |
| crog | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ubuntu_OEM_Installer_Overview | 18:10 |
| yotux | I use alt CD allot | 18:10 |
| yotux | crog: thanks | 18:10 |
| Cheesehead | crog: Thanks! | 18:10 |
| Cheesehead | Next: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28401/ | 18:10 |
| komputes | It's actually F4 | 18:10 |
| Cheesehead | Um, skip the comments. Let's see what you think unvarnished | 18:11 |
| crog | I guess that's a good reminder that the discussion is helpful - and search may be moreso | 18:11 |
| Cheesehead | Yes, LOTS of Brainstorm issues are settles by 10 seconds with a search engine. | 18:11 |
| crog | And I'll never understand all of the *.dll's in windows/system32 | 18:12 |
| komputes | Cheesehead: I marked it implemented and added the comment on how to get er dun | 18:12 |
| yotux | ok this is not an issue for a non power user | 18:12 |
| Cheesehead | komputes: Thanks! | 18:13 |
| Cheesehead | crog: Great point - nobody knows everything! I sure don't know much at all. | 18:13 |
| Cheesehead | I've just been hanging around a while. | 18:14 |
| komputes | nobody knows everything... but collectively... | 18:14 |
| crog | My point of course is that something as complicated as an OS has a lot of good reasons for why things are the way they are. | 18:15 |
| Cheesehead | crog: Another great point. | 18:15 |
| Cheesehead | A lot of new users don't know those reasons. That ties right into this idea. | 18:16 |
| komputes | Are you guys on a boat? IdleOne says hi. | 18:16 |
| Cheesehead | Any thoughts on http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28401/ | 18:17 |
| Cheesehead | ? | 18:17 |
| crog | The discussion in that idea has been ongoing | 18:18 |
| yotux | I don't see that there needs to be a whole rewrite of structure | 18:18 |
| crog | It's not something anyone's going to want to change | 18:18 |
| yotux | This could be sent to software center | 18:19 |
| Cheesehead | Is it really a problem? | 18:19 |
| yotux | but it we want a list of installed software it show in SC | 18:19 |
| yotux | It a windows / OSX issue | 18:19 |
| crog | how do you just close/nuke it? | 18:19 |
| yotux | our issue I would say no | 18:19 |
| crog | and still thank Sman789 for the idea/time... | 18:20 |
| crog | No - it's core to pretty much any Linix distro - and most all of their predecessors | 18:20 |
| Cheesehead | Well, I read it as the submitter is asking for a kind of Nautilus filter to find application-specific files | 18:20 |
| crog | Cheesehead: I may not be on the same one anymore... | 18:20 |
| crog | 28401? | 18:21 |
| Cheesehead | 28401 | 18:21 |
| crog | Ahhh - this is a feature I find most useful, but hard to get to. | 18:21 |
| Cheesehead | I read solution #1 as "use a magic wand". A bit unrealistic, and the author even agrees. | 18:21 |
| yotux | I have used linux for a long time, not a power user, the only thing diff is ubuntuy has no root | 18:22 |
| crog | When you go into synaptic (if you use that) - for installed packages, you can see the details of what's installed, and where. | 18:22 |
| crog | While I wouldn't suggest changing anything, I think this is the sort of information the submitter is looking for. | 18:22 |
| Cheesehead | crog: I suspect it's implied that he finds that too cumbersome | 18:22 |
| Cheesehead | I thought of installing in a chroot, but again that may be too cumbersome for whatever he wants to do | 18:23 |
| crog | I do too - I shouldn't need to go into my package manager app for that if the database were more accessable | 18:23 |
| crog | as you say - to something like Nautilus | 18:23 |
| Cheesehead | Which raises the question: What does he want to do with this feature? | 18:23 |
| crog | Right - probalby needs a better use case laid out | 18:24 |
| Cheesehead | Okay, so let's say a fabulous use case shows up. What's his next step? | 18:25 |
| crog | ... package his own distro? | 18:25 |
| crog | <only 1/2 serious> | 18:25 |
| Cheesehead | Well, if he backs off Solution #1 and is willing to accept, say, a Nautilus plug-in that queries the apt database... | 18:26 |
| Cheesehead | then how about suggesting such a plug-in to Gnome? | 18:27 |
| Cheesehead | Alternately... | 18:27 |
| Cheesehead | a nautilus plug-in may be small enough that he can hack at it himself | 18:27 |
| crog | agreed | 18:27 |
| Cheesehead | Since other solutions are possible, how about... | 18:28 |
| Cheesehead | 1) ask the author to clarify the use case, | 18:28 |
| Cheesehead | 2) add another solution (Nautilus plug-in) | 18:28 |
| yotux | I agree, but I don't understand why he finds the need to be in a /usr/ file place | 18:29 |
| Cheesehead | Agreed | 18:29 |
| crog | I still would want more info about what he's trying to accomplish - and what's meant by, "frequently-used folders are so scary" | 18:29 |
| crog | What's the frequent usage? | 18:29 |
| yotux | most apps create .foo configs in /home/user | 18:29 |
| Cheesehead | Seems to go back to usage/use case clarification | 18:29 |
| yotux | yes, need more info | 18:30 |
| Cheesehead | 3) leave it open a month to gauge reacton and other solutions, then send the submitter on his way | 18:30 |
| Cheesehead | Since nobody is likely to develop it for him. | 18:30 |
| crog | After reading solution 2 again - maybe it's a "uninstall" vs "purge" question. | 18:31 |
| crog | Yep - 1,2,3 as Cheesehead suggests. | 18:31 |
| Cheesehead | OOh, another cut/paste opportunity: | 18:31 |
| Cheesehead | ANALOGY - Brainstorm is like the Wizard of Oz, not Glinda the Good Witch. | 18:31 |
| Cheesehead | Glinda had a magic wand, and could do *anything* effortlessly. | 18:31 |
| Cheesehead | The Wizard didn't have a magic wand, and pointed supplicants along the path of self-development. | 18:31 |
| Cheesehead | We don't have a magic wand. | 18:32 |
| Cheesehead | (It's a limited analogy - we don't send supplicants to be slaves of the Wicked Witch.) | 18:32 |
| Cheesehead | (My apologies to the billions of non-North Americans unfamiliar with the book or movie) | 18:32 |
| Cheesehead | Next up: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27492/ | 18:32 |
| yotux | cheesehead: I would say use a group to have access /home folder | 18:35 |
| yotux | a user can be part of a group and a group can have open access to a limited amount of data | 18:35 |
| yotux | Please correct if I am wrong | 18:35 |
| Cheesehead | So, Solution #1. | 18:36 |
| Cheesehead | That's indeed an effective method. | 18:36 |
| yotux | Thats the easy way | 18:37 |
| Cheesehead | Is there really a need for a non-root to backup everybody else's stuff? | 18:38 |
| yotux | I am not sure howto do the deamon method | 18:38 |
| yotux | no, not a need | 18:38 |
| crog | I think you're either on a system where the admin backs up everything for you (i.e. I backup my wife's /home - and I have su/root) | 18:39 |
| yotux | the question makes it sound like root is in need to make backsup of all data but doesn't want to give root access cause of trust | 18:39 |
| crog | Or, you have a multi user sytem, where each user backs them selves up. | 18:39 |
| Cheesehead | So is there a clear use case for this feature? | 18:40 |
| yotux | solution 2 couldn't data be encrypted before sent over the wire? ssh / pgp | 18:40 |
| crog | If trust is the issue, encrypting before sending is the only way. | 18:40 |
| yotux | use case is clouded slightly | 18:41 |
| Cheesehead | Encryption is a great point! | 18:41 |
| crog | or if problem is trust in the backup program... the answer is open source | 18:41 |
| yotux | trust to system access is 1st | 18:41 |
| crog | find a different tool, or read line-by-line the code | 18:42 |
| crog | or "trust" the community | 18:42 |
| yotux | solution 2 talks about admin only access data? | 18:42 |
| yotux | I find that we are taking on two dragons when we started with on problem then solution introduced 2nd | 18:43 |
| yotux | ask for me details | 18:43 |
| crog | Yeah - I'm not sure what is being requested | 18:43 |
| Cheesehead | When the issues metastasize, I go back to the Rationale and the problem statement | 18:44 |
| Cheesehead | Why would the sysdamin use a backup operator/program that they don't fully trust? | 18:45 |
| yotux | So if problem is limit sys access then a limited group would work, let encryption be the users problem | 18:45 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: Admins will not use services they can't trust | 18:46 |
| Cheesehead | Is this really a problem? | 18:46 |
| crog | first line says, "difficult to perform" "without su" | 18:47 |
| yotux | No, user educate | 18:47 |
| crog | but when I think admin/backup/restore/anything - that requires root | 18:47 |
| crog | and for good reason | 18:47 |
| crog | yotux: agreed | 18:48 |
| yotux | would it require su if you are in a group that has 777 access? | 18:48 |
| Cheesehead | Could this be a user trying to do something, er, un-recommended, and unhappy that the system balks? | 18:48 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: yes he could be | 18:49 |
| crog | If I'm on a multi-user system, I don' want anyone except me or the admin who has root to have access to my /home | 18:49 |
| Cheesehead | crog: I think you nailed it there! | 18:49 |
| yotux | crog: I agree with you | 18:49 |
| Cheesehead | Ah, I like this one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27460/ | 18:50 |
| crog | me too | 18:51 |
| crog | I've actually read this one before | 18:51 |
| crog | Yes - it already exists. | 18:51 |
| crog | should just be made easier to find | 18:51 |
| Cheesehead | crog: Why? | 18:52 |
| yotux | This has changed in the last two cycles | 18:52 |
| yotux | before unity one could click on help -> about | 18:53 |
| crog | on my android... Settings --> About phone | 18:53 |
| crog | on an application... Help --> About | 18:54 |
| Cheesehead | Does anybody run across many help forum requests where the requestor cannot determine their version? | 18:54 |
| crog | In an OS (Win)... System Information | 18:54 |
| crog | etc. | 18:54 |
| crog | I think it's one thing if you need to know 11.04 or Natty | 18:55 |
| yotux | I am running ubntu 11.10 | 18:55 |
| yotux | type help | 18:55 |
| crog | but you might be asked - which version? Which build? | 18:55 |
| yotux | it tell me welcome to 11.10 | 18:55 |
| crog | Maybe you're right - it's a change - something I'm not used to. | 18:55 |
| crog | but I had no problem going from gnome to unity | 18:56 |
| crog | This seems more like a universal expectation to me. | 18:56 |
| yotux | the info display is diff in unity that is all I am saying | 18:56 |
| Cheesehead | So in Unity, it's easy? | 18:57 |
| yotux | when I am on the desktop and click help about it talks about nautilus | 18:57 |
| yotux | unity it is more hidden | 18:57 |
| yotux | easier to find apps yes | 18:57 |
| yotux | type help the manaul comes up | 18:57 |
| yotux | for me its says welcome to 11.10 | 18:57 |
| Cheesehead | The original problem statement was that it's hard to find basic information about the Ubuntu version installed | 18:58 |
| Cheesehead | Is that a problem? | 18:58 |
| Cheesehead | Hello, bigbash ! Joining us? | 18:58 |
| crog | If it means 2 extra posts in a bug report or forum... | 18:59 |
| Cheesehead | Well, in the bugs and forums you have read...did it? | 18:59 |
| crog | Cheesehead: good point | 19:00 |
| yotux | It not hard unless you want a one click solution | 19:00 |
| crog | It perhaps is not important when stacked up against other bugs, ideas, etc. | 19:01 |
| crog | but still a good idea. | 19:01 |
| Cheesehead | So a wishlist issue? | 19:01 |
| crog | And more people have voted on it than many others...\ | 19:01 |
| crog | Yes. | 19:01 |
| Cheesehead | Well, popularity with users does not imply implementation. | 19:02 |
| crog | wishlist | 19:02 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: could it be added to the about button in system settings | 19:02 |
| yotux | yotux: thinking out loud | 19:02 |
| Cheesehead | If I posted an idea "Hamburgers should be free", it would be popular, but unlikely to happen. | 19:02 |
| Cheesehead | yotux: Great idea! | 19:03 |
| yotux | I was playing in the new menu for 11.10 | 19:03 |
| yotux | System has about but doesn't ref ubuntu at this time | 19:03 |
| Cheesehead | One issue that pops up is... | 19:03 |
| yotux | Its called system info | 19:03 |
| Cheesehead | the desire to minimize patches... | 19:04 |
| Cheesehead | from upstream. | 19:04 |
| Cheesehead | Given a choice, the Desktop team would prefer to build-and-go. | 19:04 |
| crog | suggestion: upstream allows branding - so it's just a file ubuntu (or other distro) adds | 19:04 |
| crog | doesn't make sense for most apps... but for system info it might | 19:05 |
| Cheesehead | True. Then somebody must maintain that branding patch. | 19:05 |
| Cheesehead | Canonical doesn;t want their engineers maintaining a lot of patches. | 19:05 |
| Cheesehead | When they could be doing more useful work | 19:05 |
| Cheesehead | That's one possible reason why it hasn;t already been implemented | 19:06 |
| yotux | It easy access in system monitor | 19:06 |
| Cheesehead | The flip side of the argument, though, is that it goes to the polish-and-feel of the distro. | 19:07 |
| Cheesehead | Yes, I like System Monitor | 19:07 |
| Cheesehead | Next up: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27441/ | 19:07 |
| crog | so does the last one just stay open? take a pass? is there a process to dispatch of it? | 19:09 |
| crog | first - need to state what the problem is we're trying to solve | 19:09 |
| Cheesehead | We can close it if we want, but that didn't seem the consensus. | 19:10 |
| Cheesehead | We can recommend to the submitter that they offer to create and maintain such a pach for Nautilus. | 19:11 |
| yotux | 27441 data control need more info | 19:11 |
| crog | Cheesehead: 27460 - I'm not suggesting we close it - just curious what the process is | 19:11 |
| Cheesehead | Or we can leave it open in the hopes that the Technical Board will look at the issue | 19:11 |
| crog | Cheesehead: its been open, and not acted on - lots of opinions details | 19:11 |
| yotux | cloud storage user has limited control | 19:12 |
| crog | Cheesehead: So I supose that's correct - leave it open for someone to consider | 19:12 |
| Cheesehead | The TB looks at the top-15-or-so scoring ideas each quarter. | 19:12 |
| Cheesehead | They winnow them down to 10, and respond or act upon them. | 19:12 |
| crog | 27441 - need to state the problem | 19:12 |
| yotux | I have used ubuntu one the admins can purge any data they want | 19:12 |
| crog | and storage on the cloud is inherently giving up control of data | 19:13 |
| yotux | crog: we agree | 19:13 |
| Cheesehead | 2447 - I agree that the problem statement is muddled. | 19:13 |
| yotux | Here is another issue | 19:13 |
| crog | encryption solves the security or confidence | 19:14 |
| yotux | the Music store is in question. No music player I have ever used has encrypted music or data | 19:14 |
| Cheesehead | It's not the music store. That's an error. | 19:14 |
| Cheesehead | Good eyes! | 19:14 |
| yotux | .wma may have DRM but that is not of use in this case | 19:15 |
| Cheesehead | Is this really a problem? | 19:15 |
| crog | it's not a problem with ubuntu 1 | 19:16 |
| crog | it's not a problem - a wishlist/nice to have | 19:16 |
| Cheesehead | He wants to add ecryptfs support to the Ubuntu One client so he doesn;t need to bather with manually encrypring/decrypting | 19:16 |
| Cheesehead | That's how I see it. Am I far off there? | 19:16 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: yes | 19:17 |
| yotux | The data is secured by his user name and pass | 19:17 |
| crog | I'd maybe suggest doing the encryption as a client-side plugin | 19:17 |
| crog | I like DarwnSurvivors ideas on this one too. | 19:17 |
| Cheesehead | My first thought was scripting the encrypt/decrypt should be scripted locally... | 19:18 |
| Cheesehead | then the client needn;t care about the datatype | 19:18 |
| yotux | I agree | 19:18 |
| crog | You're right the encryting/decrypt shouldn't be difficult for the end user to need to do manual steps on each file they want to upload | 19:18 |
| Cheesehead | Darwin always has a great perspective! | 19:19 |
| Cheesehead | So...what should we do with this idea? | 19:19 |
| Cheesehead | Ask for clarification? Add a solution? Leave it open? | 19:20 |
| yotux | Leave open+ | 19:21 |
| Cheesehead | (We can do more than one) | 19:21 |
| crog | Would it be offensive to re-write it in complete English sentences? | 19:22 |
| yotux | crog: LOL | 19:22 |
| Cheesehead | Many submitters are not native english speakers | 19:22 |
| Cheesehead | We made an editorial decision to let grammar slide in favor of the concepts. | 19:23 |
| crog | absolutely - and no problem that its harder for them. | 19:23 |
| Cheesehead | I would be *awful* if I tried to write anything in Arabic | 19:23 |
| crog | I like the idea of choosing concepts over grammer | 19:23 |
| crog | grammar | 19:23 |
| yotux | I would rec a two step solution: recommended user encrypt and leave open | 19:23 |
| crog | I 'm suggesting someone post: "I think you are suggesting ... Does that sound right?" | 19:24 |
| Cheesehead | We also let people post in *any* language that Google Translate will recognize. Whatever it takes to be clear. | 19:24 |
| crog | simply to make it easier for others to be certain their understanding the request | 19:24 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: Thanks for the info | 19:24 |
| Cheesehead | crog: Great point on clarification | 19:25 |
| Cheesehead | The consensus seems to be leave open, clarify, and lean toward user-level encryption. | 19:26 |
| crog | Yep | 19:26 |
| Cheesehead | So the Ubuntu One part is kind of irrelevant? | 19:26 |
| Cheesehead | Could be any online storage? | 19:26 |
| crog | imo yes. | 19:26 |
| yotux | yes | 19:27 |
| crog | but If ubuntu wants to have ubuntu 1 integrated, it could be built in to the client side interface | 19:27 |
| Cheesehead | Okay, next: | 19:27 |
| Cheesehead | http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27415/ | 19:27 |
| Cheesehead | By the way, THANK YOU for your help and input. It's great to get more perspectives! | 19:28 |
| Cheesehead | And you are really helping people. | 19:28 |
| crog | On this one, my first thought is, "meh" | 19:29 |
| * Cheesehead laughs | 19:29 | |
| Cheesehead | Does this seem like it's really a problem? | 19:30 |
| crog | I know who I am from the background, icon layout, name, etc | 19:30 |
| crog | This doesn't help or hinder my usage | 19:30 |
| Cheesehead | Judging by the votes in Solution #1, perhaps a lot of voters agree with you | 19:31 |
| yotux | I don't see this as a problem | 19:31 |
| Cheesehead | User-customization will make a bigger difference than a user-icon? | 19:32 |
| yotux | The users name is already displayed | 19:32 |
| Cheesehead | Ah, true. I had forgotten | 19:32 |
| crog | the rationale says, "this could help more clearly indicate which us is logged in" | 19:33 |
| yotux | the icon is generic but the login icome is custom I think | 19:33 |
| yotux | I don't think it would, I think this is not a problem | 19:33 |
| yotux | User name is clearly displayed | 19:33 |
| crog | yotux: agree | 19:33 |
| yotux | its eye candy not functional | 19:34 |
| Cheesehead | OK, how about I close this one due to the low vote scores? | 19:34 |
| yotux | Also the screenshots are from older ubuntus we not longer will be using that framework | 19:35 |
| crog | Sounds good to me | 19:35 |
| yotux | Agree | 19:35 |
| Cheesehead | Oops, one moment please... | 19:36 |
| Cheesehead | Ah, here we go: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27298/ | 19:38 |
| Cheesehead | Sorry for the delay. Thunderstorm. | 19:38 |
| crog | I agree with the "problem", but not sure on solutions here | 19:41 |
| crog | If a process dies in the way described, restarting it probably just means it will die again | 19:41 |
| yotux | okay if a process that controls the GUI dies doesn't this make it some type of bug | 19:41 |
| Cheesehead | yotux: Well, yes. | 19:42 |
| yotux | brainstorm is not the place to report bugs, if this is the case I would suggest they try and create a bug report | 19:42 |
| crog | I'm not familiar enough with apport yet, and the other built-in bug reporting | 19:42 |
| crog | but perhaps this is speaking to a need that they be a little more integrated | 19:43 |
| yotux | crog: me either but it could be allot of things | 19:43 |
| yotux | drives, unity, compiz, etc | 19:43 |
| crog | clearly the submitter experienced a bug | 19:43 |
| crog | and is looking for a way for bugs to be less intrusive on the user experience | 19:43 |
| yotux | crog: I agree | 19:43 |
| yotux | bugs will always make user unhappy, we need to address bugs and try and get them fixed | 19:44 |
| crog | restarting is likely not going to solve anything | 19:44 |
| Cheesehead | So is this a workaround to some bug the user experiences? | 19:44 |
| Cheesehead | Or is there a real need to monitor/restart long-lived processes? | 19:44 |
| crog | but noting that the process died, and doing something about it (instead of just logging in dmesg) might hlep | 19:45 |
| crog | help | 19:45 |
| crog | if there is a need to monitor/restart specific daemons, then I'd leave that monitoring to the specific application | 19:45 |
| Cheesehead | Well, daemons are supposed to be supervised by Upstart, not directly by applications. | 19:46 |
| yotux | logging could help solve the problem in the end | 19:46 |
| crog | I guess I mean if you're writing something that you want to keep alive, but not writing it as a daemon | 19:47 |
| yotux | but logging wil also create more work with more data for devs to fix | 19:47 |
| Cheesehead | like, say, gdm. | 19:47 |
| Cheesehead | Example of a long-lived non-daemon | 19:47 |
| Cheesehead | If the submitter had provided a more specific example, it would be easier to identify if this is a bug workaround. | 19:48 |
| crog | he's comparing to a Win experience where explorer just restarts | 19:49 |
| yotux | crog I agree | 19:49 |
| Cheesehead | crog: I think you're right | 19:49 |
| crog | but I'd even argue that explorer just restarting doesn't help solve anything | 19:50 |
| Cheesehead | That takes us back to the initial question: Real need, or bug workaround? | 19:50 |
| yotux | I would say bug workaround | 19:50 |
| yotux | Is brainstorm the place for those workarounds? | 19:51 |
| crog | makes it easier to deal with a bug that occurred if you're not going to actually dig into the root caus | 19:51 |
| Cheesehead | Not really. The right answer is to fix the bugs so the workarounds are not needed. | 19:51 |
| Cheesehead | Workarounds introduce their own bugs, too | 19:51 |
| crog | I think the most useful thing in here is 'offer to restart or log out and report to the developers' | 19:52 |
| crog | thats why I mentioned apport at the start - | 19:52 |
| Cheesehead | Well, if X crashes, it already generates an apport report" | 19:52 |
| Cheesehead | And won;t give you any options - you're back to login screen | 19:53 |
| crog | So looks like we're thinking it doesn't really belong here | 19:53 |
| yotux | I would agree | 19:53 |
| crog | redirect to, "thanks, and if you see this behavior, we recommend..." | 19:53 |
| Cheesehead | ...enable apport, then reporduce the behavior. | 19:54 |
| Cheesehead | How is everybody's brain doing? | 19:54 |
| Cheesehead | Feel like you just swam a mile? | 19:54 |
| crog | fine... need to help around the house pretty soon here. | 19:54 |
| Cheesehead | crog, where are you located? | 19:55 |
| crog | I appreciate hearing the different opinions on these.... | 19:55 |
| crog | Cheesehead: Madison | 19:55 |
| crog | Cheesehead: Going to try to join tomorrow bug jam too, if I can get away... | 19:55 |
| Cheesehead | I REALLY appreciated getting your opinions! | 19:55 |
| Cheesehead | Yeah, the bug jam will work much the same way. | 19:56 |
| Cheesehead | You guys were GREAT here. Let your families know I really appreciate their sacrifice! | 19:56 |
| crog | Cheesehead: Where are you? | 19:56 |
| yotux | Cheesehead: Thanks for the intro | 19:56 |
| Cheesehead | Milwaukee | 19:56 |
| yotux | yotux: Portage | 19:56 |
| Cheesehead | I hope you liked it, and thanks for coming by! | 19:56 |
| Cheesehead | Any suggestions on how to improve for next time? | 19:57 |
| yotux | It was interesting | 19:57 |
| Cheesehead | There are a lot of possible topics! | 19:57 |
| Cheesehead | That's what I like about it | 19:57 |
| crog | we just jumped right in, which I think was great | 19:57 |
| crog | we made some decisions about wht the next steps should be on some of these | 19:58 |
| Cheesehead | Good. That's what I was aiming for! | 19:58 |
| yotux | I would agree with crog the lead in time was great | 19:58 |
| crog | perhaps a little bit more about the process up front. | 19:58 |
| Cheesehead | I thought about more lead-in. If we had some newer folks, I had some text prepared. | 19:58 |
| Cheesehead | But you guys really grabbed the ball and ran. | 19:59 |
| crog | for example we talked about closing one, but not how it's done. | 19:59 |
| Cheesehead | I have to close it. I have permissions to do so. | 19:59 |
| crog | I'm assuming you have a different interface to the website | 19:59 |
| Cheesehead | A bit different. A few extra tools. | 19:59 |
| crog | I was thinking just a little more of "lifecycle of an idea in brainstorm" | 20:00 |
| crog | but didn't really need much background (such as purpose/motivation, etc.) | 20:00 |
| yotux | crog: as one joins a team they get more rights | 20:00 |
| Cheesehead | Wait...I might have that here... | 20:00 |
| crog | yotux: assumed so - and that makes sense. | 20:00 |
| Cheesehead | WHAT BRAINSTORM IS: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com . It's an idea-generation website. | 20:00 |
| Cheesehead | You bring a specific problem, and users contribute solutions, and vote on the various solutions. | 20:00 |
| Cheesehead | Very handy for developers, or for users who identify a problem, but don;t know what to do about it. | 20:00 |
| Cheesehead | Every three months, the Ubuntu Technical Board reviews and responds to the 10 highest scoring ideas of the period. | 20:00 |
| Cheesehead | WHAT BRAINSTORM IS NOT: It's not a feedback or comment-card like you find in a restaurant | 20:01 |
| Cheesehead | "The food was nice, but the table was wobbly. And you should serve ice cream" | 20:01 |
| Cheesehead | That submission doesn't help anybody - it's a bug (wobbly table) and a wish (add ice cream) wrapped up together. That's a forum or blog post. | 20:01 |
| Cheesehead | We help the user parse out the bug and the wish and submit them separately to the appropriate channels. | 20:01 |
| Cheesehead | There we go. Just pretend I made you wade through all that up front. | 20:01 |
| * Cheesehead laughs | 20:01 | |
| crog | got it | 20:01 |
| crog | well - thanks again- - gotta go.... | 20:01 |
| Cheesehead | Thanks for joining! | 20:01 |
| Cheesehead | See you tomorrow1 | 20:01 |
| Cheesehead | ! | 20:01 |
| yotux | Cheesehead:: thanks for all you help on this, hope bug jam goes the same way | 20:02 |
| Cheesehead | Thanks for all *your* help. | 20:02 |
| yotux | I have to go myself. I am consider joining this team. | 20:02 |
| Cheesehead | Mere formality. You already have. | 20:02 |
| yotux | okay, My instrest are bugs and may MOTU | 20:03 |
| Cheesehead | Well, then. See you tomorrow, same time, same channel! | 20:03 |
| yotux | but will tackle that tomorrow | 20:03 |
| yotux | bye | 20:03 |
| Cheesehead | #EndEvent | 20:04 |
| Cheesehead | 20:04 | |
| Cheesehead | Join us in 21 Hours for the Wisconsin Bug Jam! http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1178/detail/ | 20:05 |
| * Cheesehead wanders off for a drink in the atrium | 20:06 | |
| Cheesehead | Brainstorm Jam Logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/03/%23ubuntu-us-wi.html#t16:55 | 20:23 |
| h00k | hi friends! | 22:43 |
| h00k | went well? | 22:44 |
| Cheesehead | h00k: Seems so. | 23:03 |
| h00k | s as eet | 23:03 |
| h00k | sweet | 23:03 |
| Cheesehead | You can see it was intense, and lasted the whole three hours | 23:04 |
| h00k | that ud awesome | 23:04 |
| h00k | is | 23:04 |
| Cheesehead | parting words were 'hope the bug jam goes the same way' | 23:04 |
| h00k | on my phone, haven't checked the logs yet | 23:04 |
| h00k | ! coool | 23:04 |
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