[13:06] <Cheesehead> Brainstorm Jam begins in four hours
[13:56] <lostson> wish I was gonna be around but got to work
[14:12] <Cheesehead> lostson: We'll miss you.
[14:12] <Cheesehead> Two confirmed gonna-miss-it so far.
[14:13] <Cheesehead> But what do I expect midday of a holiday weekend?
[14:13] <lostson> yeah unfortunately i am on a 12 day run of work and the storm that just ripped through this county didnt help either
[14:14] <Cheesehead> More storms on the way today...
[14:14] <lostson> hopefully not as bad today
[14:16]  * Cheesehead hopes for the largest turnout tomorrow for the IRC Bug Jam at noon CDT
[14:16] <lostson> yeah i wanted to get in on that one bigtime i love doing stuff like that
[14:17] <Cheesehead> You know, if there is interest enough, we can *always* do a second session of these events
[14:17] <Cheesehead> Just propose a time
[14:17] <lostson> thats true
[14:18] <Cheesehead> The way I structure stuff works best with three or more people, since there is a lot of discussion.
[14:20] <Cheesehead> So we need an alternate time, and (ideally) two other participants
[14:27]  * Cheesehead sent an e-mail reminder of the Brainstorm Jam
[14:33] <lostson> just got it
[14:33] <lostson> i will have to read the logs when I get back and catch up tonight after work
[14:47] <lostson> well time to get ready for work hope you all have fun today and get a great turnout!
[14:48] <Cheesehead> lostson: Thanks.
[15:22] <h00k> hi
[15:23] <h00k> I'm on my phone
[15:39] <h00k> Cheesehead, lostson
[15:43] <h00k> hanging out in # ubuntu-locoteams, too
[16:11] <Cheesehead> Brainstorm Triage Jam will begin in this channel at 1700 UTC (1200 CDT). http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1177/detail/
[16:13] <h00k> hiii
[16:13] <h00k> ntop
[16:13] <h00k> bah
[16:13] <Cheesehead> stop ntopping me
[16:13] <h00k> heh
[16:14] <h00k> trying to change topic
[16:14] <h00k> bad idea on mobile
[16:14]  * Cheesehead goes off to load the dishwasher
[16:15] <h00k> Did you see the email I sent?
[16:15] <Cheesehead> The one that said you wouldn't be around?
[16:16] <Cheesehead> The one that said you love your *family* more than a bunch of anonymous internet geeks?
[16:16] <h00k> lol
[16:16] <h00k> yrp!
[16:16] <h00k> yep!
[16:16] <Cheesehead> No. I haven't seen it.
[16:17] <h00k> I
[16:17] <h00k> http://planet.ubuntu.com/
[16:18] <h00k> there we are
[16:18] <h00k> ok. may lose service
[16:18] <h00k> apostle islands :D
[16:19] <h00k> good luck, maybe I'LL be able top attend
[16:24] <Cheesehead> h00k: Thanks. I think we'll hace a good time.
[16:55] <Cheesehead> Brainstorm Triage Jam will begin in this channel in 5 min. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1177/detail/
[16:56] <Cheesehead> Training session will be in this channel. Non-training triage will be in #ubuntu-brainstorm
[16:56] <yotux> Cheesehead:  Thanks for the info
[17:01] <Cheesehead> Hello, everyone here for the Brainstorm Triage Jam.
[17:01] <Cheesehead> Activity in this channel is logged - you can get the logs at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/03/%23ubuntu-us-wi#t17:00
[17:01] <Cheesehead> Let's see how many participants we have here. Could everyone active in this channel please give a response?
[17:01] <yotux> Here
[17:02] <Cheesehead> Anyone else for the Brainstorm Jam?
[17:02] <crog> I'll come along for the ride
[17:03] <Cheesehead> Welcome abord
[17:03] <Cheesehead> aborad
[17:03] <Cheesehead> ab...you know what i mean
[17:03] <crog> yeah
[17:04] <Cheesehead> Anyone want the long lecure about what Brainstorm is, what it does, and how it helps Ubuntu (dafault =no)
[17:04]  * Cheesehead curses his fumbly fingers
[17:04] <Cheesehead> There are three goals here today:
[17:04] <Cheesehead> 1) Meet new people and have fun
[17:04] <Cheesehead> 2) Learn more about how the various projects/teams/communities work together
[17:04] <Cheesehead> 3) Figure out how the next step for some ideas to improve Ubuntu.
[17:04] <Cheesehead> All abilities are welcome, no experience necessary.
[17:05] <yotux> ok
[17:05] <Cheesehead> yotux: What do you feel your strengths are in Ubuntu?
[17:05] <Cheesehead> (crog, you get the same question next)
[17:06] <yotux> I have send some bug reports,  I try and run alphas,  try and support the corp side of con.
[17:06] <Cheesehead> Wonderful. Crog?
[17:06] <crog> used since about 05 - know my way around package management pretty well
[17:06] <crog> haven't any experience directly with packaging however
[17:07] <Cheesehead> Let's take a look at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/26681/
[17:08] <Cheesehead> Give you a moment to read it...
[17:08] <crog> hmmm - I guess I mostly agree w/ Soln 3 -
[17:09] <yotux> I second that
[17:09] <crog> but what I think would really help with this is if a tool could seamlessly manage backups/restores
[17:09] <Cheesehead> Question: Is the problem really a problem at all?
[17:09] <crog> or if there is a way to "try out" a setting first.
[17:10] <crog> Cheesehead: good question
[17:10] <yotux> I think that it is not a problem
[17:10] <yotux> if your are playing in etc files you should already know the dangers
[17:10] <Cheesehead> Perhaps this user hosed an /etc file, and didn't know how to reinstall?
[17:11] <crog> in a typical *nix env - this is setup by an admin for you
[17:11] <Cheesehead> ...the package
[17:11] <yotux> when using the cmd user are always suggested to rename to .bak'
[17:11] <crog> but in a desktop environment - the noob becomes the admin
[17:11] <crog> Whether they have the experience or not.
[17:12] <Cheesehead> If they are new, is it likely they will be playing in /etc?
[17:12] <crog> yotux: yeah - that's the way to do it.  I could envision a gui that does that for you.
[17:12] <crog> Cheesehead: probably no
[17:12] <yotux> when new to a os -- maybe find a mentor before running into cmd?
[17:13] <Cheesehead> If I were in a help forum, I would tell the user to apt-get reinstall the package. That should solve the problem, no?
[17:13] <yotux> Cheesehead:  I don't think etc is the first stop
[17:13] <yotux> Cheesehead:  not
[17:14] <yotux> that command doesn't purge config files does it?
[17:14] <Cheesehead> True, but apt-get purge foo; apt-get install foo should do it.
[17:14] <Cheesehead> Also, to hose an /etc file, wouldn't they need to be abusing sudo?
[17:15] <yotux> Cheesehead: yes
[17:15] <crog> Cheesehead: yes and yes
[17:15] <Cheesehead> This happens a lot in Brainstorm - "somebody else" should write a GUI...
[17:16] <Cheesehead> that replaces a simple command line
[17:16] <crog> Cheesehead: So - we have different ideas, but generally agree this isn't a problem
[17:16] <crog> Cheesehead: there are ways it could be made more noob friendly - but probably not the resources to focus on this right now
[17:16] <Cheesehead> Agreed. I will mark it so a bit later.
[17:17] <crog> Cheesehead: ultimately, what's the goal of our triage?
[17:17] <Cheesehead> Good question...
[17:17] <Cheesehead> If you fellows were noobs, it would be to train you about how Ubuntu works...
[17:17] <Cheesehead> but instead, let me cut-and-paste a better goal:
[17:18] <Cheesehead> HOW YOU ARE HELPING: Some ideas don't belong in Brainstorm. You are helping teach those submitters the correct venue, and teaching them more about Ubuntu.
[17:18] <Cheesehead> You are starting them down the yellow brick road.
[17:18] <Cheesehead> Also, you are contributing to the real ideas that need solutions and comments.
[17:18] <Cheesehead> Finally, you are making the Technical Board's job easier. They shouldn't need to wade through bugs and wishes to find real issues.
[17:18]  * Cheesehead didn't know he could type that fast!
[17:19] <crog> Given this isn't a bug, it's a wish - and "brainstorm" connotes a place to make improvement suggestions - it's probably where I would have thought something like this belonged.
[17:19] <crog> I wouldn't file a bug
[17:19] <crog> I suppose I would try a bit of googling and forums before posting here thought
[17:19] <Cheesehead> I think we agreed it's not a bug...
[17:19] <crog> though
[17:19] <Cheesehead> but it's not really a problem either...
[17:20] <Cheesehead> in this case, the submitter probably can't come up with a valid use case...
[17:20] <Cheesehead> so there's not much for a developer wot work with.
[17:20] <crog> ahhh - good point
[17:20] <yotux> Cheesehead:  To me it came to self accountability
[17:21] <Cheesehead> yotux: Precisely.
[17:21] <Cheesehead> Let's look at a fresh one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28471/
[17:22] <Cheesehead> One goal of triage is to direct the submitter to the most appropriate venue.
[17:22] <Cheesehead> How are they supposed to know if nobody tells them?
[17:23] <yotux> I think that this would be something to bring up in the art work group?
[17:23] <Cheesehead> Possibly, though they deal with static stuff.
[17:23] <Cheesehead> Fade is more likely a light-dm or compiz issue, I should think.
[17:24] <crog> I guess I'm at a loss with this one...
[17:24] <crog> yeah - I was thinking compiz
[17:24] <yotux> ok
[17:25] <Cheesehead> So, essentailly, 'Go talk to compiz about it'
[17:26] <yotux> Cheesehead: since its already a feature we should not need to create a duplicate feature
[17:26] <Cheesehead> Agreed
[17:26] <yotux> by feature I mean it is something we can already do
[17:27] <Cheesehead> Another reason for them to talk to Compiz, I read this as a refinement of the existing login
[17:27] <Cheesehead> rather than a new feature
[17:27] <yotux> Cheesehead: thanks we are thinking along the same lines
[17:27] <Cheesehead> I must spend a few minutes googling a Compiz point of contact to refer them to...later
[17:28] <Cheesehead> crog, what do you think?
[17:28] <crog> If I didn't know there was a piece of software called "compiz" that handles the visual stuff
[17:28] <crog> And my system didn't already display this behavior
[17:28] <crog> I probalby wouldn't know where to look
[17:28] <crog> So it's back to what you said ont he last one
[17:29] <crog> Its an opportunity to reply and try to educate
[17:29] <yotux> I agree
[17:29] <Cheesehead> Agreed
[17:29] <Cheesehead> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28468/
[17:30] <Cheesehead> I thought this one was interesting
[17:30] <Cheesehead> Streches your brain a bit doesn't it?
[17:30] <crog> I'm not sure I understand - doesn't that require a cell tower or GPS?
[17:31] <crog> Is the person working on a tablet?
[17:31] <Cheesehead> Siderial time merely requires a clock and an ephemeris
[17:32] <Cheesehead> Or algorithms to simulate an ephemeris
[17:32] <Cheesehead> Or...a sundial
[17:33] <yotux> your solution makes sense,  I would say it needs to be updated to work with current software set
[17:33] <crog> I guess I was confusing this (which I don't quite understnd) with a location-based service
[17:34] <yotux> crog:  location base can also you ip addresses
[17:34] <crog> Yeah - you post helps some developer who can pick up the algorithm (already done), and make it work in Unity
[17:35] <yotux> I agress with crog
[17:35] <Cheesehead> Clarification: Sidereal time (solar time) is the time shown by a sundial instead of a clock
[17:35] <yotux> Cheesehead: could / should one refer the submitter to the current package manager of the package?
[17:36] <Cheesehead> Well, would that help the submitter?
[17:36] <yotux> I say yes
[17:36] <Cheesehead> What does the submitter want (in simple terms?)
[17:36] <crog> submitter want's an app
[17:36] <yotux> Cheesehead: he wants a package that exist,  but is not current
[17:37] <crog> current package maintainer may not be insterested in "porting"
[17:37] <Cheesehead> The package is current, just incompatible with his chosen desktop environment
[17:37] <yotux> I am not sure how much unity is be cross ported to XFCE and others
[17:38] <Cheesehead> So, is this an App request, a porting request, or something else?
[17:38] <yotux> I would vote porting
[17:39] <Cheesehead> And is this something the submitter needs to do more legwork on, or is this ready for a developer to tackle?
[17:39] <yotux> Submitter needs to do leg work and possibly make a follow up post
[17:39] <Cheesehead> What kind of legwork?
[17:40] <yotux> I would start by contacting the current package maintainer, see if there is an interest in porting
[17:40] <Cheesehead> That is a good start.
[17:41] <yotux> From there its up to the submitter were he want to take it
[17:41] <Cheesehead> What about extracting the LMT algorithms to a separate lib?
[17:41] <crog> from a dev point of view, that's the most useful
[17:42] <crog> you could incorporate that into other apps, or build your own gui
[17:42] <Cheesehead> I see two approaches, taken together:
[17:42] <yotux> could do this,  but it may be beyond their skill set
[17:42] <Cheesehead> Approach the package maintainer about the posibility of a port or lib-creation
[17:43] <Cheesehead> And approach Unity about the adding the feature if such a port or lib became available
[17:43] <yotux> agreed
[17:44] <Cheesehead> The submitter's role is 100% leadership and cajoling, it seems to me.
[17:45] <yotux> Since it does exist yes I agree
[17:47] <crog> may be off topic - who is the "typical submitter" in brainstorm?
[17:47] <Cheesehead> Great question
[17:47] <Cheesehead> Often a new user.
[17:47] <Cheesehead> But sometimes highly experienced or a developer.
[17:47] <Cheesehead> New users ideas tend toward "create a big new application"
[17:48] <Cheesehead> or "make it more like what I was used to on Win/OSX"
[17:48] <komputes> Hello to all from Montreal
[17:48] <Cheesehead> hey, komputes1
[17:48] <Cheesehead> hey, komputes!
[17:48] <yotux> hello, komputes
[17:48] <Cheesehead> Okay, next one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28474/
[17:49] <komputes> yotux: sup Nathan
[17:51] <crog> Cheesehead: sorry - it's not loading for me...
[17:51] <Cheesehead> checking...
[17:51] <yotux> Cheesehead:  This is a large and interesting  goal
[17:52] <Cheesehead> works for me. Perhaps the server was briefly busy.
[17:52] <yotux> Cheesehead:   There needs to be allot of legal work for the submitter
[17:53] <Cheesehead> Well, I suspect Canonical and Google would want to hammer out the legal details themselves.
[17:53] <crog> I don' know google docs
[17:53] <yotux> Google, canonical would have to agree to share api resources
[17:53] <Cheesehead> yotux: That's a great comment, though. I hadn't thought of it.
[17:54] <Cheesehead> yotux: Yeah, so there's a contract involved
[17:54] <Cheesehead> Would Google be interested in such a deal?
[17:54] <Cheesehead> What would Google get out of it?
[17:54] <yotux> Google docs is changing API allot,  ubuntu 1 is corp baby (project)
[17:54] <yotux> both services offer storage space for sale
[17:55] <crog> is having them synced without a PC core to the suggestion?
[17:55] <Cheesehead> crog: I read it so.
[17:55] <crog> I'd consider writing some sort of script/app to talk to both services, and put in in cron
[17:55] <Cheesehead> Excellent workaround!
[17:55] <yotux> crog:  they want to have all things synced between servers
[17:56] <yotux> crog:  my read was they don't want to have to sync services with local machine
[17:56] <Cheesehead> Beyond talking to Ubuntu One to convince them to miestone such a feature, is there really anything else the submitter can do?
[17:56] <crog> Ok - so as before - it's hard for a dev to act on this one
[17:57] <yotux> yes agreed
[17:57] <Cheesehead> Since there are some rich comments (legal, API changes, etc),
[17:57] <yotux> I see the only option for submitter is to ask
[17:57] <Cheesehead> I'm tempted to leave this open for a month or so and see what other comments come in
[17:58] <Cheesehead> That's one of the benefits of Brainstorm
[17:59]  * Cheesehead stands up and stretches his brain
[17:59] <Cheesehead> Ah, good. I had a kink in that right frontal lobe.
[17:59] <Cheesehead> Next: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28453/
[18:02] <yotux> This is a OEM type install question
[18:02] <yotux> I have never used this install case but it would fall into that area / Team
[18:03] <Cheesehead> Yes. How does Ubuntu currently handle such?
[18:03] <yotux> When I download the image it installed a lang pack
[18:04] <Cheesehead> This kind of request pops up every year or so
[18:04] <Cheesehead> It's generally a new-user
[18:04] <Cheesehead> 'Make it like it was on Win/OSX'
[18:04] <yotux> Not sure how to configure packages and system with lang pack installed
[18:05] <yotux> It could be refereed to the OEM team but that not our pack.  Submitter needs to ask OEM install team
[18:05] <Cheesehead> Since System76 manages to sell systems with Ubuntu installed, is this really an issue?
[18:05] <yotux> No
[18:05] <Cheesehead> I suspect we don;t know enough about what the user *really* wants
[18:05] <Cheesehead> Is the user really an OEM?
[18:06] <yotux> and if so should he not spend his own resources
[18:06] <crog> Yeah - I was trying to guess what he wanted to do with this.
[18:06] <crog> yotux: that's exactly what I thought
[18:06] <yotux> so ask for more info and make a more informed not an issue
[18:06] <komputes> Cheesehead: I would change the rationale here to, there is no easy way to install Ubuntu OEM (preinstall). Then in the Solution put 1) make OEM image release 2) use a flag on ubiquity to make it run in OEM mode
[18:07] <Cheesehead> Very possible. But still, do we have a use case to justify developer time?
[18:07] <komputes> Cheesehead: currently, I'm being told, that the alternate disk has this option already
[18:07] <Cheesehead> There we go!
[18:08]  * Cheesehead laughs
[18:09] <komputes> Cheesehead: when you boot the CD, press a key to bring up the menu, then I think it's F6 to get the menu which says OEM install
[18:09] <Cheesehead> Man, whenever you're around I *learn things*
[18:09] <yotux> komputes:   its something like that
[18:09] <Cheesehead> You guys are filling my brain!
[18:10] <crog> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ubuntu_OEM_Installer_Overview
[18:10] <yotux> I use alt CD allot
[18:10] <yotux> crog:   thanks
[18:10] <Cheesehead> crog: Thanks!
[18:10] <Cheesehead> Next: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28401/
[18:10] <komputes> It's actually F4
[18:11] <Cheesehead> Um, skip the comments. Let's see what you think unvarnished
[18:11] <crog> I guess that's a good reminder that the discussion is helpful - and search may be moreso
[18:11] <Cheesehead> Yes, LOTS of Brainstorm issues are settles by 10 seconds with a search engine.
[18:12] <crog> And I'll never understand all of the *.dll's in windows/system32
[18:12] <komputes> Cheesehead: I marked it implemented and added the comment on how to get er dun
[18:12] <yotux> ok this is not an issue for a non power user
[18:13] <Cheesehead> komputes: Thanks!
[18:13] <Cheesehead> crog: Great point - nobody knows everything! I sure don't know much at all.
[18:14] <Cheesehead> I've just been hanging around a while.
[18:14] <komputes>  nobody knows everything... but collectively...
[18:15] <crog> My point of course is that something as complicated as an OS has a lot of good reasons for why things are the way they are.
[18:15] <Cheesehead> crog: Another great point.
[18:16] <Cheesehead> A lot of new users don't know those reasons. That ties right into this idea.
[18:16] <komputes> Are you guys on a boat? IdleOne says hi.
[18:17] <Cheesehead> Any thoughts on http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28401/
[18:17] <Cheesehead> ?
[18:18] <crog> The discussion in that idea has been ongoing
[18:18] <yotux> I don't see that there needs to be a whole rewrite of structure
[18:18] <crog> It's not something anyone's going to want to change
[18:19] <yotux> This could be sent to software center
[18:19] <Cheesehead> Is it really a problem?
[18:19] <yotux> but it we want a list of installed software it show in SC
[18:19] <yotux> It a windows / OSX issue
[18:19] <crog> how do you just close/nuke it?
[18:19] <yotux> our issue I would say no
[18:20] <crog> and still thank Sman789 for the idea/time...
[18:20] <crog> No - it's core to pretty much any Linix distro - and most all of their predecessors
[18:20] <Cheesehead> Well, I read it as the submitter is asking for a kind of Nautilus filter to find application-specific files
[18:20] <crog> Cheesehead: I may not be on the same one anymore...
[18:21] <crog> 28401?
[18:21] <Cheesehead> 28401
[18:21] <crog> Ahhh - this is a feature I find most useful, but hard to get to.
[18:21] <Cheesehead> I read solution #1 as "use a magic wand". A bit unrealistic, and the author even agrees.
[18:22] <yotux> I have used linux for a long time,  not a power user,  the only thing diff is ubuntuy has no root
[18:22] <crog> When you go into synaptic (if you use that) - for installed packages, you can see the details of what's installed, and where.
[18:22] <crog> While I wouldn't suggest changing anything, I think this is the sort of information the submitter is looking for.
[18:22] <Cheesehead> crog: I suspect it's implied that he finds that too cumbersome
[18:23] <Cheesehead> I thought of installing in a chroot, but again that may be too cumbersome for whatever he wants to do
[18:23] <crog> I do too - I shouldn't need to go into my package manager app for that if the database were more accessable
[18:23] <crog> as you say - to something like Nautilus
[18:23] <Cheesehead> Which raises the question: What does he want to do with this feature?
[18:24] <crog> Right - probalby needs a better use case laid out
[18:25] <Cheesehead> Okay, so let's say a fabulous use case shows up. What's his next step?
[18:25] <crog> ...  package his own distro?
[18:25] <crog> <only 1/2 serious>
[18:26] <Cheesehead> Well, if he backs off Solution #1 and is willing to accept, say, a Nautilus plug-in that queries the apt database...
[18:27] <Cheesehead> then how about suggesting such a plug-in to Gnome?
[18:27] <Cheesehead> Alternately...
[18:27] <Cheesehead> a nautilus plug-in may be small enough that he can hack at it himself
[18:27] <crog> agreed
[18:28] <Cheesehead> Since other solutions are possible, how about...
[18:28] <Cheesehead> 1) ask the author to clarify the use case,
[18:28] <Cheesehead> 2) add another solution (Nautilus plug-in)
[18:29] <yotux> I agree,   but I don't understand why he finds the need to be in a /usr/  file place
[18:29] <Cheesehead> Agreed
[18:29] <crog> I still would want more info about what he's trying to accomplish - and what's meant by, "frequently-used folders are so scary"
[18:29] <crog> What's the frequent usage?
[18:29] <yotux> most apps create .foo configs in /home/user
[18:29] <Cheesehead> Seems to go back to usage/use case clarification
[18:30] <yotux> yes,  need more info
[18:30] <Cheesehead> 3) leave it open a month to gauge reacton and other solutions, then send the submitter on his way
[18:30] <Cheesehead> Since nobody is likely to develop it for him.
[18:31] <crog> After reading solution 2 again - maybe it's a "uninstall" vs "purge" question.
[18:31] <crog> Yep - 1,2,3 as Cheesehead suggests.
[18:31] <Cheesehead> OOh, another cut/paste opportunity:
[18:31] <Cheesehead> ANALOGY - Brainstorm is like the Wizard of Oz, not Glinda the Good Witch.
[18:31] <Cheesehead> Glinda had a magic wand, and could do *anything* effortlessly.
[18:31] <Cheesehead> The Wizard didn't have a magic wand, and pointed supplicants along the path of self-development.
[18:32] <Cheesehead> We don't have a magic wand.
[18:32] <Cheesehead> (It's a limited analogy - we don't send supplicants to be slaves of the Wicked Witch.)
[18:32] <Cheesehead> (My apologies to the billions of non-North Americans unfamiliar with the book or movie)
[18:32] <Cheesehead> Next up: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27492/
[18:35] <yotux> cheesehead:  I would say use a group to have access /home folder
[18:35] <yotux> a user can be part of a group and a group can have open access to a limited amount of data
[18:35] <yotux> Please correct if I am wrong
[18:36] <Cheesehead> So, Solution #1.
[18:36] <Cheesehead> That's indeed an effective method.
[18:37] <yotux> Thats the easy way
[18:38] <Cheesehead> Is there really a need for a non-root to backup everybody else's stuff?
[18:38] <yotux> I am not sure howto do the deamon method
[18:38] <yotux> no, not a need
[18:39] <crog> I think you're either on a system where the admin backs up everything for you (i.e. I backup my wife's /home - and I have su/root)
[18:39] <yotux> the question makes it sound like root is in need to make backsup of all data but doesn't want to give root access cause of trust
[18:39] <crog> Or, you have a multi user sytem, where each user backs them selves up.
[18:40] <Cheesehead> So is there a clear use case for this feature?
[18:40] <yotux> solution 2  couldn't data be encrypted before sent over the wire?  ssh / pgp
[18:40] <crog> If trust is the issue, encrypting before sending is the only way.
[18:41] <yotux> use case is clouded slightly
[18:41] <Cheesehead> Encryption is a great point!
[18:41] <crog> or if problem is trust in the backup program...  the answer is open source
[18:41] <yotux> trust to system access is 1st
[18:42] <crog> find a different tool, or read line-by-line the code
[18:42] <crog> or "trust" the community
[18:42] <yotux> solution 2 talks about admin only access data?
[18:43] <yotux> I find that we are taking on two dragons when we started with on problem then solution introduced 2nd
[18:43] <yotux> ask for me details
[18:43] <crog> Yeah - I'm not sure what is being requested
[18:44] <Cheesehead> When the issues metastasize, I go back to the Rationale and the problem statement
[18:45] <Cheesehead> Why would the sysdamin use a backup operator/program that they don't fully trust?
[18:45] <yotux> So if problem is limit sys access then a limited group would work,  let encryption be the users problem
[18:46] <yotux> Cheesehead: Admins will not use services they can't trust
[18:46] <Cheesehead> Is this really a problem?
[18:47] <crog> first line says, "difficult to perform" "without su"
[18:47] <yotux> No,  user educate
[18:47] <crog> but when I think admin/backup/restore/anything - that requires root
[18:47] <crog> and for good reason
[18:48] <crog> yotux: agreed
[18:48] <yotux> would it require su if you are in a group that has 777 access?
[18:48] <Cheesehead> Could this be a user trying to do something, er, un-recommended, and unhappy that the system balks?
[18:49] <yotux> Cheesehead: yes he could be
[18:49] <crog> If I'm on a multi-user system, I don' want anyone except me or the admin who has root to have access to my /home
[18:49] <Cheesehead> crog: I think you nailed it there!
[18:49] <yotux> crog: I agree with you
[18:50] <Cheesehead> Ah, I like this one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27460/
[18:51] <crog> me too
[18:51] <crog> I've actually read this one before
[18:51] <crog> Yes - it already exists.
[18:51] <crog> should just be made easier to find
[18:52] <Cheesehead> crog: Why?
[18:52] <yotux> This has changed in the last two cycles
[18:53] <yotux> before unity one could click on help -> about
[18:53] <crog> on my android... Settings --> About phone
[18:54] <crog> on an application... Help --> About
[18:54] <Cheesehead> Does anybody run across many help forum requests where the requestor cannot determine their version?
[18:54] <crog> In an OS (Win)... System Information
[18:54] <crog> etc.
[18:55] <crog> I think it's one thing if you need to know 11.04 or Natty
[18:55] <yotux> I am running ubntu 11.10
[18:55] <yotux> type help
[18:55] <crog> but you might be asked - which version?  Which build?
[18:55] <yotux> it tell me welcome to 11.10
[18:55] <crog> Maybe you're right - it's a change - something I'm not used to.
[18:56] <crog> but I had no problem going from gnome to unity
[18:56] <crog> This seems more like a universal expectation to me.
[18:56] <yotux> the info display is diff in unity that is all I am saying
[18:57] <Cheesehead> So in Unity, it's easy?
[18:57] <yotux> when I am on the desktop and click help about it talks about nautilus
[18:57] <yotux> unity it is more hidden
[18:57] <yotux> easier to find apps yes
[18:57] <yotux> type help the manaul comes up
[18:57] <yotux> for me its says welcome to 11.10
[18:58] <Cheesehead> The original problem statement was that it's hard to find basic information about the Ubuntu version installed
[18:58] <Cheesehead> Is that a problem?
[18:58] <Cheesehead> Hello, bigbash ! Joining us?
[18:59] <crog> If it means 2 extra posts in a bug report or forum...
[18:59] <Cheesehead> Well, in the bugs and forums you have read...did it?
[19:00] <crog> Cheesehead: good point
[19:00] <yotux> It not hard unless you want a one click solution
[19:01] <crog> It perhaps is not important when stacked up against other bugs, ideas, etc.
[19:01] <crog> but still a good idea.
[19:01] <Cheesehead> So a wishlist issue?
[19:01] <crog> And more people have voted on it than many others...\
[19:01] <crog> Yes.
[19:02] <Cheesehead> Well, popularity with users does not imply implementation.
[19:02] <crog> wishlist
[19:02] <yotux> Cheesehead:  could it be added to the about button in system settings
[19:02] <yotux> yotux:  thinking out loud
[19:02] <Cheesehead> If I posted an idea "Hamburgers should be free", it would be popular, but unlikely to happen.
[19:03] <Cheesehead> yotux: Great idea!
[19:03] <yotux> I was playing in the new menu for 11.10
[19:03] <yotux> System has about but doesn't ref ubuntu at this time
[19:03] <Cheesehead> One issue that pops up is...
[19:03] <yotux> Its called system info
[19:04] <Cheesehead> the desire to minimize patches...
[19:04] <Cheesehead> from upstream.
[19:04] <Cheesehead> Given a choice, the Desktop team would prefer to build-and-go.
[19:04] <crog> suggestion: upstream allows branding - so it's just a file ubuntu (or other distro) adds
[19:05] <crog> doesn't make sense for most apps... but for system info it might
[19:05] <Cheesehead> True. Then somebody must maintain that branding patch.
[19:05] <Cheesehead> Canonical doesn;t want their engineers maintaining a lot of patches.
[19:05] <Cheesehead> When they could be doing more useful work
[19:06] <Cheesehead> That's one possible reason why it hasn;t already been implemented
[19:06] <yotux> It easy access in system monitor
[19:07] <Cheesehead> The flip side of the argument, though, is that it goes to the polish-and-feel of the distro.
[19:07] <Cheesehead> Yes, I like System Monitor
[19:07] <Cheesehead> Next up: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27441/
[19:09] <crog> so does the last one just stay open?  take a pass? is there a process to dispatch of it?
[19:09] <crog> first - need to state what the problem is we're trying to solve
[19:10] <Cheesehead> We can close it if we want, but that didn't seem the consensus.
[19:11] <Cheesehead> We can recommend to the submitter that they offer to create and maintain such a pach for Nautilus.
[19:11] <yotux> 27441  data control need more info
[19:11] <crog> Cheesehead: 27460 - I'm not suggesting we close it -  just curious what the process is
[19:11] <Cheesehead> Or we can leave it open in the hopes that the Technical Board will look at the issue
[19:11] <crog> Cheesehead: its been open, and not acted on - lots of opinions details
[19:12] <yotux> cloud storage user has limited control
[19:12] <crog> Cheesehead: So I supose that's correct - leave it open for someone to consider
[19:12] <Cheesehead> The TB looks at the top-15-or-so scoring ideas each quarter.
[19:12] <Cheesehead> They winnow them down to 10, and respond or act upon them.
[19:12] <crog> 27441 - need to state the problem
[19:12] <yotux> I have used ubuntu one the admins can purge any data they want
[19:13] <crog> and storage on the cloud is inherently giving up control of data
[19:13] <yotux> crog: we agree
[19:13] <Cheesehead> 2447 - I agree that the problem statement is muddled.
[19:13] <yotux> Here is another issue
[19:14] <crog> encryption solves the security or confidence
[19:14] <yotux> the Music store is in question.  No music player I have ever used has encrypted music or data
[19:14] <Cheesehead> It's not the music store. That's an error.
[19:14] <Cheesehead> Good eyes!
[19:15] <yotux> .wma may have DRM but that is not of use in this case
[19:15] <Cheesehead> Is this really a problem?
[19:16] <crog> it's not a problem with ubuntu 1
[19:16] <crog> it's not a problem - a wishlist/nice to have
[19:16] <Cheesehead> He wants to add ecryptfs support to the Ubuntu One client so he doesn;t need to bather with manually encrypring/decrypting
[19:16] <Cheesehead> That's how I see it. Am I far off there?
[19:17] <yotux> Cheesehead: yes
[19:17] <yotux> The data is secured by his user name and pass
[19:17] <crog> I'd maybe suggest doing the encryption as a client-side plugin
[19:17] <crog> I like DarwnSurvivors ideas on this one too.
[19:18] <Cheesehead> My first thought was scripting the encrypt/decrypt should be scripted locally...
[19:18] <Cheesehead> then the client needn;t care about the datatype
[19:18] <yotux> I agree
[19:18] <crog> You're right the encryting/decrypt shouldn't be difficult for the end user to need to do manual steps on each file they want to upload
[19:19] <Cheesehead> Darwin always has a great perspective!
[19:19] <Cheesehead> So...what should we do with this idea?
[19:20] <Cheesehead> Ask for clarification? Add a solution? Leave it open?
[19:21] <yotux> Leave open+
[19:21] <Cheesehead> (We can do more than one)
[19:22] <crog> Would it be offensive to re-write it in complete English sentences?
[19:22] <yotux> crog: LOL
[19:22] <Cheesehead> Many submitters are not native english speakers
[19:23] <Cheesehead> We made an editorial decision to let grammar slide in favor of the concepts.
[19:23] <crog> absolutely - and no problem that its harder for them.
[19:23] <Cheesehead> I would be *awful* if I tried to write anything in Arabic
[19:23] <crog> I like the idea of choosing concepts over grammer
[19:23] <crog> grammar
[19:23] <yotux> I would rec a two step solution:  recommended user  encrypt and leave open
[19:24] <crog> I 'm suggesting someone post:  "I think you are suggesting ...  Does that sound right?"
[19:24] <Cheesehead> We also let people post in *any* language that Google Translate will recognize. Whatever it takes to be clear.
[19:24] <crog> simply to make it easier for others to be certain their understanding the request
[19:24] <yotux> Cheesehead: Thanks for the info
[19:25] <Cheesehead> crog: Great point on clarification
[19:26] <Cheesehead> The consensus seems to be leave open, clarify, and lean toward user-level encryption.
[19:26] <crog> Yep
[19:26] <Cheesehead> So the Ubuntu One part is kind of irrelevant?
[19:26] <Cheesehead> Could be any online storage?
[19:26] <crog> imo yes.
[19:27] <yotux> yes
[19:27] <crog> but If ubuntu wants to have ubuntu 1 integrated, it could be built in to the client side interface
[19:27] <Cheesehead> Okay, next:
[19:27] <Cheesehead> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27415/
[19:28] <Cheesehead> By the way, THANK YOU for your help and input. It's great to get more perspectives!
[19:28] <Cheesehead> And you are really helping people.
[19:29] <crog> On this one, my first thought is, "meh"
[19:29]  * Cheesehead laughs
[19:30] <Cheesehead> Does this seem like it's really a problem?
[19:30] <crog> I know who I am from the background, icon layout, name, etc
[19:30] <crog> This doesn't help or hinder my usage
[19:31] <Cheesehead> Judging by the votes in Solution #1, perhaps a lot of voters agree with you
[19:31] <yotux> I don't see this as a problem
[19:32] <Cheesehead> User-customization will make a bigger difference than a user-icon?
[19:32] <yotux> The users name is already displayed
[19:32] <Cheesehead> Ah, true. I had forgotten
[19:33] <crog> the rationale says, "this could help more clearly indicate which us is logged in"
[19:33] <yotux> the icon is generic but the login icome is custom I think
[19:33] <yotux> I don't think it would,  I think this is not a problem
[19:33] <yotux> User name is clearly displayed
[19:33] <crog> yotux: agree
[19:34] <yotux> its eye candy not functional
[19:34] <Cheesehead> OK, how about I close this one due to the low vote scores?
[19:35] <yotux> Also the screenshots are from older ubuntus we not longer will be using that framework
[19:35] <crog> Sounds good to me
[19:35] <yotux> Agree
[19:36] <Cheesehead> Oops, one moment please...
[19:38] <Cheesehead> Ah, here we go: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27298/
[19:38] <Cheesehead> Sorry for the delay. Thunderstorm.
[19:41] <crog> I agree with the "problem", but not sure on solutions here
[19:41] <crog> If a process dies in the way described, restarting it probably just means it will die again
[19:41] <yotux> okay if a process that controls the GUI dies doesn't this make it some type of bug
[19:42] <Cheesehead> yotux: Well, yes.
[19:42] <yotux> brainstorm is not the place to report bugs,  if this is the case I would suggest they try and create a bug report
[19:42] <crog> I'm not familiar enough with apport yet, and the other built-in bug reporting
[19:43] <crog> but perhaps this is speaking to a need that they be a little more integrated
[19:43] <yotux> crog:  me either but it could be allot of things
[19:43] <yotux> drives, unity, compiz, etc
[19:43] <crog> clearly the submitter experienced a bug
[19:43] <crog> and is looking for a way for bugs to be less intrusive on the user experience
[19:43] <yotux> crog: I agree
[19:44] <yotux> bugs will always make user unhappy,  we need to address bugs and try and get them fixed
[19:44] <crog> restarting is likely not going to solve anything
[19:44] <Cheesehead> So is this a workaround to some bug the user experiences?
[19:44] <Cheesehead> Or is there a real need to monitor/restart long-lived processes?
[19:45] <crog> but noting that the process died, and doing something about it (instead of just logging in dmesg) might hlep
[19:45] <crog> help
[19:45] <crog> if there is a need to monitor/restart specific daemons, then I'd leave that monitoring to the specific application
[19:46] <Cheesehead> Well, daemons are supposed to be supervised by Upstart, not directly by applications.
[19:46] <yotux> logging could help solve the problem in the end
[19:47] <crog> I guess I mean if you're writing something that you want to keep alive, but not writing it as a daemon
[19:47] <yotux> but logging wil also create more work with more data for devs to fix
[19:47] <Cheesehead> like, say, gdm.
[19:47] <Cheesehead> Example of a long-lived non-daemon
[19:48] <Cheesehead> If the submitter had provided a more specific example, it would be easier to identify if this is a bug workaround.
[19:49] <crog> he's comparing to a Win experience where explorer just restarts
[19:49] <yotux> crog I agree
[19:49] <Cheesehead> crog: I think you're right
[19:50] <crog> but I'd even argue that explorer just restarting doesn't help solve anything
[19:50] <Cheesehead> That takes us back to the initial question: Real need, or bug workaround?
[19:50] <yotux> I would say bug workaround
[19:51] <yotux> Is brainstorm the place for those workarounds?
[19:51] <crog> makes it easier to deal with a bug that occurred if you're not going to actually dig into the root caus
[19:51] <Cheesehead> Not really. The right answer is to fix the bugs so the workarounds are not needed.
[19:51] <Cheesehead> Workarounds introduce their own bugs, too
[19:52] <crog> I think the most useful thing in here is 'offer to restart or log out and report to the developers'
[19:52] <crog> thats why I mentioned apport at the start -
[19:52] <Cheesehead> Well, if X crashes, it already generates an apport report"
[19:53] <Cheesehead> And won;t give you any options - you're back to login screen
[19:53] <crog> So looks like we're thinking it doesn't really belong here
[19:53] <yotux> I would agree
[19:53] <crog> redirect to, "thanks, and if you see this behavior, we recommend..."
[19:54] <Cheesehead> ...enable apport, then reporduce the behavior.
[19:54] <Cheesehead> How is everybody's brain doing?
[19:54] <Cheesehead> Feel like you just swam a mile?
[19:54] <crog> fine... need to help around the house pretty soon here.
[19:55] <Cheesehead> crog, where are you located?
[19:55] <crog> I appreciate hearing the different opinions on these....
[19:55] <crog> Cheesehead: Madison
[19:55] <crog> Cheesehead: Going to try to join tomorrow bug jam too, if I can get away...
[19:55] <Cheesehead> I REALLY appreciated getting your opinions!
[19:56] <Cheesehead> Yeah, the bug jam will work much the same way.
[19:56] <Cheesehead> You guys were GREAT here. Let your families know I really appreciate their sacrifice!
[19:56] <crog> Cheesehead: Where are you?
[19:56] <yotux> Cheesehead:  Thanks for the intro
[19:56] <Cheesehead> Milwaukee
[19:56] <yotux> yotux: Portage
[19:56] <Cheesehead> I hope you liked it, and thanks for coming by!
[19:57] <Cheesehead> Any suggestions on how to improve for next time?
[19:57] <yotux> It was interesting
[19:57] <Cheesehead> There are a lot of possible topics!
[19:57] <Cheesehead> That's what I like about it
[19:57] <crog> we just jumped right in, which I think was great
[19:58] <crog> we made some decisions about wht the next steps should be on some of these
[19:58] <Cheesehead> Good. That's what I was aiming for!
[19:58] <yotux> I would agree with crog the lead in time was great
[19:58] <crog> perhaps a little bit more about the process up front.
[19:58] <Cheesehead> I thought about more lead-in. If we had some newer folks, I had some text prepared.
[19:59] <Cheesehead> But you guys really grabbed the ball and ran.
[19:59] <crog> for example we talked about closing one, but not how it's done.
[19:59] <Cheesehead> I have to close it. I have permissions to do so.
[19:59] <crog> I'm assuming you have a different interface to the website
[19:59] <Cheesehead> A bit different. A few extra tools.
[20:00] <crog> I was thinking just a little more of "lifecycle of an idea in brainstorm"
[20:00] <crog> but didn't really need much background (such as purpose/motivation, etc.)
[20:00] <yotux> crog:  as one joins a team they get more rights
[20:00] <Cheesehead> Wait...I might have that here...
[20:00] <crog> yotux: assumed so - and that makes sense.
[20:00] <Cheesehead> WHAT BRAINSTORM IS: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com . It's an idea-generation website.
[20:00] <Cheesehead> You bring a specific problem, and users contribute solutions, and vote on the various solutions.
[20:00] <Cheesehead> Very handy for developers, or for users who identify a problem, but don;t know what to do about it.
[20:00] <Cheesehead> Every three months, the Ubuntu Technical Board reviews and responds to the 10 highest scoring ideas of the period.
[20:01] <Cheesehead> WHAT BRAINSTORM IS NOT: It's not a feedback or comment-card like you find in a restaurant
[20:01] <Cheesehead> "The food was nice, but the table was wobbly. And you should serve ice cream"
[20:01] <Cheesehead> That submission doesn't help anybody - it's a bug (wobbly table) and a wish (add ice cream) wrapped up together. That's a forum or blog post.
[20:01] <Cheesehead> We help the user parse out the bug and the wish and submit them separately to the appropriate channels.
[20:01] <Cheesehead> There we go. Just pretend I made you wade through all that up front.
[20:01]  * Cheesehead laughs
[20:01] <crog> got it
[20:01] <crog> well - thanks again- - gotta go....
[20:01] <Cheesehead> Thanks for joining!
[20:01] <Cheesehead> See you tomorrow1
[20:01] <Cheesehead> !
[20:02] <yotux> Cheesehead:: thanks for all you help on this,  hope bug jam goes the same way
[20:02] <Cheesehead> Thanks for all *your* help.
[20:02] <yotux> I have to go myself.  I am consider joining this team.
[20:02] <Cheesehead> Mere formality. You already have.
[20:03] <yotux> okay,  My instrest are bugs and may MOTU
[20:03] <Cheesehead> Well, then. See you tomorrow, same time, same channel!
[20:03] <yotux> but will tackle that tomorrow
[20:03] <yotux> bye
[20:04] <Cheesehead> #EndEvent
[20:04] <Cheesehead>  
[20:05] <Cheesehead> Join us in 21 Hours for the Wisconsin Bug Jam! http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1178/detail/
[20:06]  * Cheesehead wanders off for a drink in the atrium
[20:23] <Cheesehead> Brainstorm Jam Logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/03/%23ubuntu-us-wi.html#t16:55
[22:43] <h00k> hi friends!
[22:44] <h00k> went well?
[23:03] <Cheesehead> h00k: Seems so.
[23:03] <h00k> s as eet
[23:03] <h00k> sweet
[23:04] <Cheesehead> You can see it was intense, and lasted the whole three hours
[23:04] <h00k> that ud awesome
[23:04] <h00k> is
[23:04] <Cheesehead> parting words were 'hope the bug jam goes the same way'
[23:04] <h00k> on my phone, haven't checked the logs yet
[23:04] <h00k> ! coool