=== Owner_ is now known as favrenation [13:06] Brainstorm Jam begins in four hours [13:56] wish I was gonna be around but got to work [14:12] lostson: We'll miss you. [14:12] Two confirmed gonna-miss-it so far. [14:13] But what do I expect midday of a holiday weekend? [14:13] yeah unfortunately i am on a 12 day run of work and the storm that just ripped through this county didnt help either [14:14] More storms on the way today... [14:14] hopefully not as bad today [14:16] * Cheesehead hopes for the largest turnout tomorrow for the IRC Bug Jam at noon CDT [14:16] yeah i wanted to get in on that one bigtime i love doing stuff like that [14:17] You know, if there is interest enough, we can *always* do a second session of these events [14:17] Just propose a time [14:17] thats true [14:18] The way I structure stuff works best with three or more people, since there is a lot of discussion. [14:20] So we need an alternate time, and (ideally) two other participants [14:27] * Cheesehead sent an e-mail reminder of the Brainstorm Jam [14:33] just got it [14:33] i will have to read the logs when I get back and catch up tonight after work [14:47] well time to get ready for work hope you all have fun today and get a great turnout! [14:48] lostson: Thanks. [15:22] hi [15:23] I'm on my phone [15:39] Cheesehead, lostson [15:43] hanging out in # ubuntu-locoteams, too [16:11] Brainstorm Triage Jam will begin in this channel at 1700 UTC (1200 CDT). http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1177/detail/ [16:13] hiii [16:13] ntop [16:13] bah [16:13] stop ntopping me [16:13] heh [16:14] trying to change topic [16:14] bad idea on mobile [16:14] * Cheesehead goes off to load the dishwasher [16:15] Did you see the email I sent? [16:15] The one that said you wouldn't be around? [16:16] The one that said you love your *family* more than a bunch of anonymous internet geeks? [16:16] lol [16:16] yrp! [16:16] yep! [16:16] No. I haven't seen it. [16:17] I [16:17] http://planet.ubuntu.com/ [16:18] there we are [16:18] ok. may lose service [16:18] apostle islands :D [16:19] good luck, maybe I'LL be able top attend [16:24] h00k: Thanks. I think we'll hace a good time. [16:55] Brainstorm Triage Jam will begin in this channel in 5 min. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1177/detail/ [16:56] Training session will be in this channel. Non-training triage will be in #ubuntu-brainstorm [16:56] Cheesehead: Thanks for the info [17:01] Hello, everyone here for the Brainstorm Triage Jam. [17:01] Activity in this channel is logged - you can get the logs at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/03/%23ubuntu-us-wi#t17:00 [17:01] Let's see how many participants we have here. Could everyone active in this channel please give a response? [17:01] Here [17:02] Anyone else for the Brainstorm Jam? [17:02] I'll come along for the ride [17:03] Welcome abord [17:03] aborad [17:03] ab...you know what i mean [17:03] yeah [17:04] Anyone want the long lecure about what Brainstorm is, what it does, and how it helps Ubuntu (dafault =no) [17:04] * Cheesehead curses his fumbly fingers [17:04] There are three goals here today: [17:04] 1) Meet new people and have fun [17:04] 2) Learn more about how the various projects/teams/communities work together [17:04] 3) Figure out how the next step for some ideas to improve Ubuntu. [17:04] All abilities are welcome, no experience necessary. [17:05] ok [17:05] yotux: What do you feel your strengths are in Ubuntu? [17:05] (crog, you get the same question next) [17:06] I have send some bug reports, I try and run alphas, try and support the corp side of con. [17:06] Wonderful. Crog? [17:06] used since about 05 - know my way around package management pretty well [17:06] haven't any experience directly with packaging however [17:07] Let's take a look at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/26681/ [17:08] Give you a moment to read it... [17:08] hmmm - I guess I mostly agree w/ Soln 3 - [17:09] I second that [17:09] but what I think would really help with this is if a tool could seamlessly manage backups/restores [17:09] Question: Is the problem really a problem at all? [17:09] or if there is a way to "try out" a setting first. [17:10] Cheesehead: good question [17:10] I think that it is not a problem [17:10] if your are playing in etc files you should already know the dangers [17:10] Perhaps this user hosed an /etc file, and didn't know how to reinstall? [17:11] in a typical *nix env - this is setup by an admin for you [17:11] ...the package [17:11] when using the cmd user are always suggested to rename to .bak' [17:11] but in a desktop environment - the noob becomes the admin [17:11] Whether they have the experience or not. [17:12] If they are new, is it likely they will be playing in /etc? [17:12] yotux: yeah - that's the way to do it. I could envision a gui that does that for you. [17:12] Cheesehead: probably no [17:12] when new to a os -- maybe find a mentor before running into cmd? [17:13] If I were in a help forum, I would tell the user to apt-get reinstall the package. That should solve the problem, no? [17:13] Cheesehead: I don't think etc is the first stop [17:13] Cheesehead: not [17:14] that command doesn't purge config files does it? [17:14] True, but apt-get purge foo; apt-get install foo should do it. [17:14] Also, to hose an /etc file, wouldn't they need to be abusing sudo? [17:15] Cheesehead: yes [17:15] Cheesehead: yes and yes [17:15] This happens a lot in Brainstorm - "somebody else" should write a GUI... [17:16] that replaces a simple command line [17:16] Cheesehead: So - we have different ideas, but generally agree this isn't a problem [17:16] Cheesehead: there are ways it could be made more noob friendly - but probably not the resources to focus on this right now [17:16] Agreed. I will mark it so a bit later. [17:17] Cheesehead: ultimately, what's the goal of our triage? [17:17] Good question... [17:17] If you fellows were noobs, it would be to train you about how Ubuntu works... [17:17] but instead, let me cut-and-paste a better goal: [17:18] HOW YOU ARE HELPING: Some ideas don't belong in Brainstorm. You are helping teach those submitters the correct venue, and teaching them more about Ubuntu. [17:18] You are starting them down the yellow brick road. [17:18] Also, you are contributing to the real ideas that need solutions and comments. [17:18] Finally, you are making the Technical Board's job easier. They shouldn't need to wade through bugs and wishes to find real issues. [17:18] * Cheesehead didn't know he could type that fast! [17:19] Given this isn't a bug, it's a wish - and "brainstorm" connotes a place to make improvement suggestions - it's probably where I would have thought something like this belonged. [17:19] I wouldn't file a bug [17:19] I suppose I would try a bit of googling and forums before posting here thought [17:19] I think we agreed it's not a bug... [17:19] though [17:19] but it's not really a problem either... [17:20] in this case, the submitter probably can't come up with a valid use case... [17:20] so there's not much for a developer wot work with. [17:20] ahhh - good point [17:20] Cheesehead: To me it came to self accountability [17:21] yotux: Precisely. [17:21] Let's look at a fresh one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28471/ [17:22] One goal of triage is to direct the submitter to the most appropriate venue. [17:22] How are they supposed to know if nobody tells them? [17:23] I think that this would be something to bring up in the art work group? [17:23] Possibly, though they deal with static stuff. [17:23] Fade is more likely a light-dm or compiz issue, I should think. [17:24] I guess I'm at a loss with this one... [17:24] yeah - I was thinking compiz [17:24] ok [17:25] So, essentailly, 'Go talk to compiz about it' [17:26] Cheesehead: since its already a feature we should not need to create a duplicate feature [17:26] Agreed [17:26] by feature I mean it is something we can already do [17:27] Another reason for them to talk to Compiz, I read this as a refinement of the existing login [17:27] rather than a new feature [17:27] Cheesehead: thanks we are thinking along the same lines [17:27] I must spend a few minutes googling a Compiz point of contact to refer them to...later [17:28] crog, what do you think? [17:28] If I didn't know there was a piece of software called "compiz" that handles the visual stuff [17:28] And my system didn't already display this behavior [17:28] I probalby wouldn't know where to look [17:28] So it's back to what you said ont he last one [17:29] Its an opportunity to reply and try to educate [17:29] I agree [17:29] Agreed [17:29] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28468/ [17:30] I thought this one was interesting [17:30] Streches your brain a bit doesn't it? [17:30] I'm not sure I understand - doesn't that require a cell tower or GPS? [17:31] Is the person working on a tablet? [17:31] Siderial time merely requires a clock and an ephemeris [17:32] Or algorithms to simulate an ephemeris [17:32] Or...a sundial [17:33] your solution makes sense, I would say it needs to be updated to work with current software set [17:33] I guess I was confusing this (which I don't quite understnd) with a location-based service [17:34] crog: location base can also you ip addresses [17:34] Yeah - you post helps some developer who can pick up the algorithm (already done), and make it work in Unity [17:35] I agress with crog [17:35] Clarification: Sidereal time (solar time) is the time shown by a sundial instead of a clock [17:35] Cheesehead: could / should one refer the submitter to the current package manager of the package? [17:36] Well, would that help the submitter? [17:36] I say yes [17:36] What does the submitter want (in simple terms?) [17:36] submitter want's an app [17:36] Cheesehead: he wants a package that exist, but is not current [17:37] current package maintainer may not be insterested in "porting" [17:37] The package is current, just incompatible with his chosen desktop environment [17:37] I am not sure how much unity is be cross ported to XFCE and others [17:38] So, is this an App request, a porting request, or something else? [17:38] I would vote porting [17:39] And is this something the submitter needs to do more legwork on, or is this ready for a developer to tackle? [17:39] Submitter needs to do leg work and possibly make a follow up post [17:39] What kind of legwork? [17:40] I would start by contacting the current package maintainer, see if there is an interest in porting [17:40] That is a good start. [17:41] From there its up to the submitter were he want to take it [17:41] What about extracting the LMT algorithms to a separate lib? [17:41] from a dev point of view, that's the most useful [17:42] you could incorporate that into other apps, or build your own gui [17:42] I see two approaches, taken together: [17:42] could do this, but it may be beyond their skill set [17:42] Approach the package maintainer about the posibility of a port or lib-creation [17:43] And approach Unity about the adding the feature if such a port or lib became available [17:43] agreed [17:44] The submitter's role is 100% leadership and cajoling, it seems to me. [17:45] Since it does exist yes I agree [17:47] may be off topic - who is the "typical submitter" in brainstorm? [17:47] Great question [17:47] Often a new user. [17:47] But sometimes highly experienced or a developer. [17:47] New users ideas tend toward "create a big new application" [17:48] or "make it more like what I was used to on Win/OSX" [17:48] Hello to all from Montreal [17:48] hey, komputes1 [17:48] hey, komputes! [17:48] hello, komputes [17:48] Okay, next one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28474/ [17:49] yotux: sup Nathan [17:51] Cheesehead: sorry - it's not loading for me... [17:51] checking... [17:51] Cheesehead: This is a large and interesting goal [17:52] works for me. Perhaps the server was briefly busy. [17:52] Cheesehead: There needs to be allot of legal work for the submitter [17:53] Well, I suspect Canonical and Google would want to hammer out the legal details themselves. [17:53] I don' know google docs [17:53] Google, canonical would have to agree to share api resources [17:53] yotux: That's a great comment, though. I hadn't thought of it. [17:54] yotux: Yeah, so there's a contract involved [17:54] Would Google be interested in such a deal? [17:54] What would Google get out of it? [17:54] Google docs is changing API allot, ubuntu 1 is corp baby (project) [17:54] both services offer storage space for sale [17:55] is having them synced without a PC core to the suggestion? [17:55] crog: I read it so. [17:55] I'd consider writing some sort of script/app to talk to both services, and put in in cron [17:55] Excellent workaround! [17:55] crog: they want to have all things synced between servers [17:56] crog: my read was they don't want to have to sync services with local machine [17:56] Beyond talking to Ubuntu One to convince them to miestone such a feature, is there really anything else the submitter can do? [17:56] Ok - so as before - it's hard for a dev to act on this one [17:57] yes agreed [17:57] Since there are some rich comments (legal, API changes, etc), [17:57] I see the only option for submitter is to ask [17:57] I'm tempted to leave this open for a month or so and see what other comments come in [17:58] That's one of the benefits of Brainstorm [17:59] * Cheesehead stands up and stretches his brain [17:59] Ah, good. I had a kink in that right frontal lobe. [17:59] Next: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28453/ [18:02] This is a OEM type install question [18:02] I have never used this install case but it would fall into that area / Team [18:03] Yes. How does Ubuntu currently handle such? [18:03] When I download the image it installed a lang pack [18:04] This kind of request pops up every year or so [18:04] It's generally a new-user [18:04] 'Make it like it was on Win/OSX' [18:04] Not sure how to configure packages and system with lang pack installed [18:05] It could be refereed to the OEM team but that not our pack. Submitter needs to ask OEM install team [18:05] Since System76 manages to sell systems with Ubuntu installed, is this really an issue? [18:05] No [18:05] I suspect we don;t know enough about what the user *really* wants [18:05] Is the user really an OEM? [18:06] and if so should he not spend his own resources [18:06] Yeah - I was trying to guess what he wanted to do with this. [18:06] yotux: that's exactly what I thought [18:06] so ask for more info and make a more informed not an issue [18:06] Cheesehead: I would change the rationale here to, there is no easy way to install Ubuntu OEM (preinstall). Then in the Solution put 1) make OEM image release 2) use a flag on ubiquity to make it run in OEM mode [18:07] Very possible. But still, do we have a use case to justify developer time? [18:07] Cheesehead: currently, I'm being told, that the alternate disk has this option already [18:07] There we go! [18:08] * Cheesehead laughs [18:09] Cheesehead: when you boot the CD, press a key to bring up the menu, then I think it's F6 to get the menu which says OEM install [18:09] Man, whenever you're around I *learn things* [18:09] komputes: its something like that [18:09] You guys are filling my brain! [18:10] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ubuntu_OEM_Installer_Overview [18:10] I use alt CD allot [18:10] crog: thanks [18:10] crog: Thanks! [18:10] Next: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28401/ [18:10] It's actually F4 [18:11] Um, skip the comments. Let's see what you think unvarnished [18:11] I guess that's a good reminder that the discussion is helpful - and search may be moreso [18:11] Yes, LOTS of Brainstorm issues are settles by 10 seconds with a search engine. [18:12] And I'll never understand all of the *.dll's in windows/system32 [18:12] Cheesehead: I marked it implemented and added the comment on how to get er dun [18:12] ok this is not an issue for a non power user [18:13] komputes: Thanks! [18:13] crog: Great point - nobody knows everything! I sure don't know much at all. [18:14] I've just been hanging around a while. [18:14] nobody knows everything... but collectively... [18:15] My point of course is that something as complicated as an OS has a lot of good reasons for why things are the way they are. [18:15] crog: Another great point. [18:16] A lot of new users don't know those reasons. That ties right into this idea. [18:16] Are you guys on a boat? IdleOne says hi. [18:17] Any thoughts on http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28401/ [18:17] ? [18:18] The discussion in that idea has been ongoing [18:18] I don't see that there needs to be a whole rewrite of structure [18:18] It's not something anyone's going to want to change [18:19] This could be sent to software center [18:19] Is it really a problem? [18:19] but it we want a list of installed software it show in SC [18:19] It a windows / OSX issue [18:19] how do you just close/nuke it? [18:19] our issue I would say no [18:20] and still thank Sman789 for the idea/time... [18:20] No - it's core to pretty much any Linix distro - and most all of their predecessors [18:20] Well, I read it as the submitter is asking for a kind of Nautilus filter to find application-specific files [18:20] Cheesehead: I may not be on the same one anymore... [18:21] 28401? [18:21] 28401 [18:21] Ahhh - this is a feature I find most useful, but hard to get to. [18:21] I read solution #1 as "use a magic wand". A bit unrealistic, and the author even agrees. [18:22] I have used linux for a long time, not a power user, the only thing diff is ubuntuy has no root [18:22] When you go into synaptic (if you use that) - for installed packages, you can see the details of what's installed, and where. [18:22] While I wouldn't suggest changing anything, I think this is the sort of information the submitter is looking for. [18:22] crog: I suspect it's implied that he finds that too cumbersome [18:23] I thought of installing in a chroot, but again that may be too cumbersome for whatever he wants to do [18:23] I do too - I shouldn't need to go into my package manager app for that if the database were more accessable [18:23] as you say - to something like Nautilus [18:23] Which raises the question: What does he want to do with this feature? [18:24] Right - probalby needs a better use case laid out [18:25] Okay, so let's say a fabulous use case shows up. What's his next step? [18:25] ... package his own distro? [18:25] [18:26] Well, if he backs off Solution #1 and is willing to accept, say, a Nautilus plug-in that queries the apt database... [18:27] then how about suggesting such a plug-in to Gnome? [18:27] Alternately... [18:27] a nautilus plug-in may be small enough that he can hack at it himself [18:27] agreed [18:28] Since other solutions are possible, how about... [18:28] 1) ask the author to clarify the use case, [18:28] 2) add another solution (Nautilus plug-in) [18:29] I agree, but I don't understand why he finds the need to be in a /usr/ file place [18:29] Agreed [18:29] I still would want more info about what he's trying to accomplish - and what's meant by, "frequently-used folders are so scary" [18:29] What's the frequent usage? [18:29] most apps create .foo configs in /home/user [18:29] Seems to go back to usage/use case clarification [18:30] yes, need more info [18:30] 3) leave it open a month to gauge reacton and other solutions, then send the submitter on his way [18:30] Since nobody is likely to develop it for him. [18:31] After reading solution 2 again - maybe it's a "uninstall" vs "purge" question. [18:31] Yep - 1,2,3 as Cheesehead suggests. [18:31] OOh, another cut/paste opportunity: [18:31] ANALOGY - Brainstorm is like the Wizard of Oz, not Glinda the Good Witch. [18:31] Glinda had a magic wand, and could do *anything* effortlessly. [18:31] The Wizard didn't have a magic wand, and pointed supplicants along the path of self-development. [18:32] We don't have a magic wand. [18:32] (It's a limited analogy - we don't send supplicants to be slaves of the Wicked Witch.) [18:32] (My apologies to the billions of non-North Americans unfamiliar with the book or movie) [18:32] Next up: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27492/ [18:35] cheesehead: I would say use a group to have access /home folder [18:35] a user can be part of a group and a group can have open access to a limited amount of data [18:35] Please correct if I am wrong [18:36] So, Solution #1. [18:36] That's indeed an effective method. [18:37] Thats the easy way [18:38] Is there really a need for a non-root to backup everybody else's stuff? [18:38] I am not sure howto do the deamon method [18:38] no, not a need [18:39] I think you're either on a system where the admin backs up everything for you (i.e. I backup my wife's /home - and I have su/root) [18:39] the question makes it sound like root is in need to make backsup of all data but doesn't want to give root access cause of trust [18:39] Or, you have a multi user sytem, where each user backs them selves up. [18:40] So is there a clear use case for this feature? [18:40] solution 2 couldn't data be encrypted before sent over the wire? ssh / pgp [18:40] If trust is the issue, encrypting before sending is the only way. [18:41] use case is clouded slightly [18:41] Encryption is a great point! [18:41] or if problem is trust in the backup program... the answer is open source [18:41] trust to system access is 1st [18:42] find a different tool, or read line-by-line the code [18:42] or "trust" the community [18:42] solution 2 talks about admin only access data? [18:43] I find that we are taking on two dragons when we started with on problem then solution introduced 2nd [18:43] ask for me details [18:43] Yeah - I'm not sure what is being requested [18:44] When the issues metastasize, I go back to the Rationale and the problem statement [18:45] Why would the sysdamin use a backup operator/program that they don't fully trust? [18:45] So if problem is limit sys access then a limited group would work, let encryption be the users problem [18:46] Cheesehead: Admins will not use services they can't trust [18:46] Is this really a problem? [18:47] first line says, "difficult to perform" "without su" [18:47] No, user educate [18:47] but when I think admin/backup/restore/anything - that requires root [18:47] and for good reason [18:48] yotux: agreed [18:48] would it require su if you are in a group that has 777 access? [18:48] Could this be a user trying to do something, er, un-recommended, and unhappy that the system balks? [18:49] Cheesehead: yes he could be [18:49] If I'm on a multi-user system, I don' want anyone except me or the admin who has root to have access to my /home [18:49] crog: I think you nailed it there! [18:49] crog: I agree with you [18:50] Ah, I like this one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27460/ [18:51] me too [18:51] I've actually read this one before [18:51] Yes - it already exists. [18:51] should just be made easier to find [18:52] crog: Why? [18:52] This has changed in the last two cycles [18:53] before unity one could click on help -> about [18:53] on my android... Settings --> About phone [18:54] on an application... Help --> About [18:54] Does anybody run across many help forum requests where the requestor cannot determine their version? [18:54] In an OS (Win)... System Information [18:54] etc. [18:55] I think it's one thing if you need to know 11.04 or Natty [18:55] I am running ubntu 11.10 [18:55] type help [18:55] but you might be asked - which version? Which build? [18:55] it tell me welcome to 11.10 [18:55] Maybe you're right - it's a change - something I'm not used to. [18:56] but I had no problem going from gnome to unity [18:56] This seems more like a universal expectation to me. [18:56] the info display is diff in unity that is all I am saying [18:57] So in Unity, it's easy? [18:57] when I am on the desktop and click help about it talks about nautilus [18:57] unity it is more hidden [18:57] easier to find apps yes [18:57]