[00:26] <GTRSDK|busy> falktx_: I was told you were the person to talk to about iso building?
[00:28] <falktx_> GTRSDK|busy: ISO?
[00:28] <GTRSDK|busy> falktx_: livedvd
[00:28] <falktx_> I can build a custom ISO, not official ones
[00:28] <falktx_> yes
[00:30] <GTRSDK|busy> falktx_: do you base then off of an official ISO?
[00:31] <falktx_> GTRSDK|busy: no, build from scratch
[00:44] <falktx_> sorry I was busy
[00:44] <falktx_> GTRSDK|busy: what do you need?
[00:45] <GTRSDK|busy> falktx_: I am trying to figure out how to build a LiveDVD
[00:45] <falktx_> GTRSDK|busy: I have a script for it
[00:45] <falktx_> ScottL: do you still have the notes I wrote for you about the ISO script?
[00:49] <GTRSDK|busy> I am currently trying to build a LiveDVD by editing files and adding some
[00:57] <GTRSDK|busy> I need to set up ubiquity
[00:59] <falktx_> the ubuntu docs have good info about that
[00:59] <falktx_> my script is based on that
[01:00] <GTRSDK|busy> because there is no ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntustudio , correct?
[02:42] <ScottL> falktx_, i do have the notes
[02:43] <ScottL> astraljava, you are probably right about a livedvd and trying to maintain double the number of images
[02:43] <ScottL> astraljava, perhaps we should do a "community" maintaind livedvd that we create manually after canonical release
[02:43] <ScottL> we could host it on sourcrforge or something
[02:45] <falktx_> ScottL: I can host it
[02:45] <falktx_> sourceforge kxstudio though, if that's ok
[02:46] <falktx_> not sure...
[02:46] <ScottL> at this point we need to create it first ;) then we can wory about where it's hosted
[03:02] <falktx_> yep
[07:02] <shnatsel> Hey everybody
[07:02] <shnatsel> I've explored the edubuntu ubiquity patch
[07:02] <shnatsel> it will work for us, it's very easy to adapt
[07:02] <GTRSDK|busy> shnatsel: what is the patch about?
[07:03] <shnatsel> GTRSDK|busy: installing only the components selected by the user during installation
[07:03] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: usual ubiquity doesn't have it while debian-installer has
[07:04] <shnatsel> the way debian-installer implements it has always driven me nuts, though
[07:04] <shnatsel> the keyboard controls are absolutely non-intuitive and I always skip it instead of selecting a seed
[07:05] <shnatsel> then have to re-launch installation and think about the keys
[07:05] <GTRsdk> there should be instructions on how to use debian-installer built in with it
[07:06] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: if the UI needs explanation, it has to be fixed. (c) elementary philosophy, and also rule of UI design
[07:07] <shnatsel> apart of that, you have a very common mistake in your seed packages
[07:07] <shnatsel> everything is marked as "depends"
[07:07] <shnatsel> instead of "recommends"
[07:07] <GTRsdk> shnatsel: which packages?
[07:08] <shnatsel> which is terrible because if you uninstall an app from the seed, you lose the metapackage, and then you lose all the other packages from the seed on an autoremove
[07:08] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: seeds, the ones parsed by Germinate
[07:08] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: http://packages.ubuntu.com/source/oneiric/ubuntustudio-meta
[07:10] <GTRsdk> so I have a mistake in a seed package?
[07:11] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: you have a mistake in the guidelines for creating them, I'd say
[07:11] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: apps should be marked as "recommends", not "depends"
[07:12] <GTRsdk> shnatsel: so which package?
[07:12] <shnatsel> ubuntustudio-meta source package
[07:12] <GTRsdk> I never packaged that one
[07:12] <GTRsdk> shnatsel: I don't have upload rights
[07:12] <shnatsel> GTRsdk: hmm, I didn't say it's personally your fault, did I?
[07:13] <shnatsel> nvm
[07:15] <GTRsdk> shnatsel: I'm not even in the ubuntustudio-dev team yet
[07:16] <shnatsel> OK, the project has this error
[07:16] <shnatsel> I gotta report a bug I guess
[07:16] <shnatsel> !report ubuntustudio
[07:16] <shnatsel> hmm
[07:17] <shnatsel> yeah, no rabbitbot here, sorry
[07:18] <GTRsdk> okay
[07:22] <shnatsel> reported as bug 840144
[07:44] <shnatsel> Here's the doc about custom ubiquity from edubuntu: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JinRIl_hYWJA4L0COe9r5uAX4ZgmfqyIYmC5Tdhfn3o/edit
[08:00] <astraljava> I'm not too sure about that bug. For instance, -desktop kinda needs to depend on certain packages, that construct the whole desktop experience. IMHO, that's an invalid.
[08:02] <astraljava> Is there an auto-removal for Synaptic?
[08:02] <astraljava> If you use it on apt-get, you're kinda expected to know what you're doing anyway.
[09:26] <shnatsel> ScottL: ubuntu studio doesn't use Launchpad blueprints at the moment. Maybe you should change that? AFAIK it's the best specification tracker available, and we definitely need one to get something done (I sent a link to my writeup on that a while ago)
[09:34] <shnatsel> ScottL: I need to coordinate some changes to the seed architecture but you have nowhere to write that down
[09:34] <shnatsel> it sounds like a series of related bugs and blueprints to me atm
[11:43] <scott-work> morning...i noticed a lot was written while getting ready to come to work, i'll read logs in a bit
[11:51] <scott-work> shnatsel: you mention blueprints and launchpad and a link in a write up that you sent a while ago....how long ago and to whom did you send the email?  i don't recall seeing anything at the moment
[11:51] <scott-work> TheMuso: could you offer any opinion on bug 840144 ?
[11:52] <shnatsel> scott-work: actually, I pasted the link here. elementaryos.org/journal/how-see-what’s-our-sleeves
[11:52] <scott-work> okay, yes, i saw that one :)
[11:53] <shnatsel> scott-work: bug 840144 it's a requirement for the selective app installation in Ubiquity, too
[11:53] <scott-work> okay, when i looked at it yesterday it looked just like a journal but as i read more at a particular entry i can see where you are talking about lauchpad blueprints
[11:54] <scott-work> to be very direct, i had considered using blueprints before (and milestones) but i really didn't understand it completely so i have shied away from it
[11:54] <scott-work> i would very much like to understand them however
[11:54] <scott-work> i will read more from your link when i have more time (i.e. not at work)  ;)
[11:55] <scott-work> shnatsel: is there a particular journal entry that you would i recommend reading first or foremost?
[11:56] <shnatsel> scott-work: this is the only writeup about LP blueprints I'm aware about.
[11:56] <shnatsel> scott-work: I tried to explain why blueprints are needed, what problem do they solve and how to use them
[11:57] <scott-work> so far this is the best i've read that starts explaining more about blueprints: http://elementaryos.org/journal/how-see-what%E2%80%99s-our-sleeves
[11:57] <scott-work> i will definitely read more tonight
[11:57] <shnatsel> scott-work: yes, that's my article :)
[11:58] <scott-work> oh, oh, oh...this is funny
[11:58] <scott-work> shnatsel: the link you gave me is slightly broken :)
[11:58] <scott-work> it takes me to the main journal page
[11:58] <scott-work> hahaha
[11:58] <shnatsel> http://elementaryos.org/journal/how-see-what%E2%80%99s-our-sleeves
[11:58] <shnatsel> ?
[11:59] <shnatsel> hmm... :(
[11:59] <scott-work> elementaryos.org/journal/how-see-whats-our-sleeves
[11:59] <scott-work> between "what" and "s" i see a funny square box
[11:59] <shnatsel> copy-pasting from url bar in firefox 7 seems to be glitchy
[11:59] <scott-work> the link you _just_ posted has "%E2%80%99" between "what" and "s"
[12:00] <scott-work> i read the titles and decided to read a little more on one that i thought would be right
[12:00] <scott-work> happenstance that i picked the one you wanted me to read
[12:00] <shnatsel> sorry, my bad
[12:00] <shnatsel> I'm glad you found the right article anyway :)
[12:00] <scott-work> i think it's kinda funny
[12:01] <scott-work> okay, i will take a break at work and read this article during the day
[12:01] <scott-work> yes, thank you very much, this will be much help!
[12:01] <scott-work> i did something similar for packaging for backports using PPA's
[12:01] <scott-work> http://fossmusicproject.blogspot.com/
[12:02] <scott-work> it started as a record for me to help me remember how i did stuff but then morphed into a way for others to use and i expand on what a ppa is and how it can be used
[12:02] <scott-work> astraljava: did you see my comment about livedvd?
[12:21] <scott-work> shnatsel: do you work with any other projects other than elemtary?
[12:23] <shnatsel> scott-work: well, I also made http://shnatsel.blogspot.com/2011/07/weve-just-revolutionized-alpha-testing.html and it needs work
[12:24] <shnatsel> also http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/tag/shnatsel
[12:25] <shnatsel> or maybe http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/?s=shnatsel
[12:25] <scott-work> i will say that i like the clean look of the windows for the midoria screenshot under the discover page on the elementary os website
[12:26] <scott-work> i would like to push the ubuntu studio windows dressings to such a clean look
[12:26] <shnatsel> scott-work: Midori is also damn fast and, unlike other browsers, it integrates with the DE well
[12:26] <scott-work> i think that xfce can look very clean but yet elegant too, perhaps even a "cutting edge" look 
[12:27] <scott-work> i just don't know much about changing themes or window dressings
[12:27] <shnatsel> scott-work: there is an elementary theme port to XFCE
[12:28] <scott-work> hmmm, i might have to look into that then :)
[12:28] <shnatsel> scott-work: to be completely honest, I think you'd better migrate to Pantheon than to XFCE.
[12:28] <scott-work> i haven't heard of pantheon before
[12:29] <shnatsel> scott-work: it's elementary's desktop environment, to be released with the next OS version
[12:29] <shnatsel> scott-work: it also has a modular DE-independent shell, Pantheon Shell that beats GNOME Shell and Unity
[12:30] <shnatsel> it's built to be lightweight and fast, and also has very good design that's traditional to elementary project
[12:31] <shnatsel> IMHO XFCE is good, but some of its components are hardly usable in real life; it's better to fix GNOME than to switch to XFCE.
[12:31] <shnatsel> e.g. Mousepad vs Gedit
[12:32] <shnatsel> Mousepad is almost as useful as Windoze Notepad
[12:32] <shnatsel> xfconf is better than gconf but dconf/GSettings from GNOME3 beat it
[12:33] <shnatsel> dconf is damn fast; it's dconf that makes such a difference in login time between Lucid and Maverick
[12:33] <shnatsel> etc etc etc
[12:34] <shnatsel> so in elementary project we take GNOME and replace everything we don't like with custom apps
[12:34] <shnatsel> There was an article about it in the journal... http://elementaryos.org/journal/meet-me-pantheon
[12:36] <shnatsel> Mac has a reputation of being an OS for designers and creative people, because it's well-designed. I'm sure a Linux distro for creative people also should have the best design available.
[12:37] <shnatsel> which is IMO elementary project. Unity is just ridiculous and GNOME is still like it's from early 2000s
[12:39] <shnatsel> There was a screencast of Pantheon shell somewhere...
[12:39] <shnatsel> Outdated, but still: http://www.webupd8.org/2011/05/video-slingshot-plank-wingpanel-beatbox.html
[12:40] <shnatsel> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXaigfAc4vM
[12:40] <scott-work> shnatsel: one thing to keep in mind is that ubuntu studio cannot ship anything in the image that is not in the official repositories (i.e. cannot use PPA)
[12:40] <shnatsel> ATM this is a prototype
[12:40]  * scott-work is working on reading backscroll
[12:41] <shnatsel> scott-work: yes, so we'll have to push all elementary apps to ubuntu repos on time; I have no idea how that can be done, because we mostly follow Ubuntu release schedule.
[12:42] <shnatsel> IMHO using only official repos slows ubuntu studio down so much...
[12:43] <shnatsel> I might make elementary studio someday, with blackjack and PPAs
[12:43] <scott-work> hehe, that would be pretty cool
[12:43] <scott-work> i an aware that xfce isn't quite a light as it used to be, especially compared to gnome and kde which used to be much heavier than xfce at one time
[12:43] <scott-work> i believe that gap has narrowed in the last year or so
[12:44] <scott-work> i really think that we need to redefine and articulate our vision of ubuntu studio (i know i keep talking about this)
[12:44] <shnatsel> I guess don't really care about being lightweight because multimedia PCs are powerful anyway
[12:44] <scott-work> and having a fast light destktop is important (i believe)
[12:44] <scott-work> shnatsel: if that is the audience we want to serve (i.e. those with fast,  powerful computers)
[12:45] <scott-work> historically i believe we have tried to accomodate those with slower comptuers as well
[12:45] <scott-work> this doesn't make it proper though
[12:45] <shnatsel> scott-work: IMHO one of the mistakes you made is shipping custom artwork, custom sound theme, etc. After a fail of my artistic distro I strongly believe in division of labour and avoiding scattering resources.
[12:46] <shnatsel> scott-work: I haven't been there to see the project's history, though
[12:47] <scott-work> shnatsel: wrt "customer artwork, custom sound": are you suggesting that we focus solely on packaging and less on branding perhaps?
[12:47] <scott-work> i'm not being critical, i just want to understand your intent :)
[12:48] <shnatsel> scott-work: yes, exactly
[12:48] <scott-work> i ask also because i feel we really do need to figure out who we are, whom we server, and how we will server them
[12:49] <shnatsel> scott-work: my distro failed exactly for the same reason - nobody knew what exactly we were going to make
[12:50] <scott-work> shnatsel: i just realized something....
[12:51] <scott-work> but first, i have felt that the wallpaper on the desktop should be very, very plain
[12:51] <scott-work> for a multimedia comptuer
[12:51] <scott-work> it should be nuetral
[12:51] <scott-work> it shouldn't distract
[12:51] <scott-work> it shouldn't be busy
[12:51] <scott-work> it should just....be
[12:51] <scott-work> yeah, i know that sounds Zen
[12:52] <scott-work> i just realized that this may be why i am preferential to xfce
[12:52] <shnatsel> scott-work: or, the application presenting the wallpaper should present it in a way that makes any wallpaper be like that ;)
[12:52] <scott-work> it's uncluttered in many ways and it has simple, but functional, window dressings for example
[12:52] <scott-work> shnatsel: good point
[12:52] <shnatsel> scott-work: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/pantheon-wallpaper/+spec/focus-blur
[12:52] <shnatsel> ;)
[12:53] <scott-work> ah, yes...this is like the windows 7 or vista or something
[12:53] <scott-work> my wife has a window laptop she refuses to let me change to linux and it does this
[12:53] <scott-work> i very, very rarely use it though
[12:54] <shnatsel> scott-work: huh? It's implemented somewhere already?
[12:55] <scott-work> i belive so, perhaps its the other windows that blur or the background...i suppose it could be both
[12:55] <scott-work> but i recall that on my wife's windows machine the stuff behind the active window is blurred, it could only be other windows but it could include the background as well
[12:55] <shnatsel> AFAIR only the window decoration blurs stuff beneath it
[12:56] <shnatsel> Compiz can blur inactive windows
[12:57] <shnatsel> that module crashes Compiz on my PC with default settings, though
[12:57] <shnatsel> I had to tweak it
[12:57] <shnatsel> and I don't like the effect anyway
[12:58] <shnatsel> Fading out inactive windows works better
[12:58] <shnatsel> it's Compiz's ADD helper module
[12:59] <scott-work> but this was on a windows machine
[12:59] <scott-work> they are copying linux anyways ;)
[13:00] <scott-work> shnatsel: i appreciate your suggestions and comments and would appreciate any help you are willing to provide
[13:01] <shnatsel> scott-work: does forking ubuntu studio and making elementary studio count as help? ;)
[13:01] <shnatsel> I want to make your liveDVD first :)
[13:01] <scott-work> if we can steal some of you stuff!
[13:01] <scott-work> hehe
[13:01] <shnatsel> scott-work: no problem :)
[13:01] <scott-work> shnatsel:  astraljava had a very good point last night about supporting another image
[13:02] <shnatsel> scott-work: huh?
[13:02] <shnatsel> scott-work: I think I missed it
[13:02] <scott-work> we have been struggling to just test the images we have currently
[13:02] <scott-work> and the team is already spread pretty thin
[13:02] <scott-work> so we have a few options that i can think of currently...
[13:02] <scott-work> 1. scrap the live dvd (not my preference)
[13:02] <scott-work> 2. build up the community more (yay!)
[13:03] <scott-work> 3. create an "unofficial" livedvd that is "community" supported (weird third option)
[13:03] <shnatsel> scott-work: I choose 3 for Oneiric
[13:03] <scott-work> shnatsel: i presume you meant to help us create an officially built livedvd that is created and hosted by canonical via the automated buildd system that already builds the other images
[13:04] <scott-work> is that correct?  or am i mistaken
[13:04]  * scott-work is often mistaken but can easily admit it ;)
[13:04] <shnatsel> scott-work: I'm OK with that too
[13:04] <shnatsel> scott-work: I have no idea about Canonical build systems, though
[13:04] <shnatsel> scott-work: I know I can build a livedvd right now
[13:05] <scott-work> the buildd daemon builds the image from our seed files automatically and can only use items in the repositories
[13:05] <scott-work> all the ubuntu studio team does is have the seeds in our code
[13:05] <scott-work> but it would appear that you are suggesting we build our live dvd manually?
[13:05] <shnatsel> scott-work: well, building from seeds is OK
[13:06] <scott-work> i'm not judging or stating preference, i just want to understand your suggested process for building a live dvd
[13:06] <shnatsel> scott-work: I'm OK with any process that's best for the project
[13:06] <scott-work> i think that different people have different expectations and perhaps perceptions
[13:07] <scott-work> shnatsel: but what would your original idea for building a live dvd?
[13:07] <scott-work> s/would/was
[13:07] <shnatsel> scott-work: making an unofficial one for Oneiric to test it out and make it official for LTS
[13:08] <shnatsel> that was my initial plan
[13:08] <scott-work> shnatsel:  can you describe what you meant by "official"?
[13:08] <shnatsel> scott-work: no idea tbh
[13:08] <scott-work> lol, okay :)
[13:08] <shnatsel> scott-work: I have no idea about your processes
[13:08] <scott-work> i think i understand though
[13:09] <scott-work> perhaps you meant "unofficial" is that we build it and then just test it, we don't announce it publicly as an available image
[13:09] <scott-work> then for the LTS we build it and then announce it to the public as an available image
[13:09] <shnatsel> that's up to you actually
[13:09] <shnatsel> I build the image
[13:09] <shnatsel> you do the announcements you want
[13:09] <scott-work> sh
[13:09] <scott-work> shnatsel: how would you build the image?
[13:09] <shnatsel> I'm not the PR guy of the project
[13:10] <scott-work> i'll explain in a minute why i'm so curious about how you will build and the term "official" in a minute
[13:10] <shnatsel> scott-work: whatever process you prefer. I can build it locally. I can write a script that builds it. Whatever.
[13:10] <scott-work> again, this goes with expectation and perceptions
[13:10] <scott-work> okay, i'll explain why i was asking
[13:10] <shnatsel> It's a matter of apt-get install ubuntustudio-desktop && pack image
[13:11] <scott-work> like i said before, we currently use the automated buildd daemon from canonical, the same one ubuntu uses to build their images
[13:11] <scott-work> this doesn't make it the "right" way or the preferred way, it just is _the_ way it is done currently
[13:11] <scott-work> to some this is the "official" image
[13:12] <shnatsel> I guess it's handy
[13:12] <scott-work> and to some the logic goes the other way as well....it is the "official" image because it's built by the buildd system
[13:12] <scott-work> which infers that it cannot be "official" if it isn't built using the buildd system
[13:13] <scott-work> again, not passing judgement or saying this is right or "proper", just stating how some feel
[13:13] <scott-work> my thoughts are...we choose what image we want to call "official"
[13:13] <scott-work> it's an arbitrary decision
[13:13] <scott-work> and choosing to say the buildd images are "official" is arbitrary decision as well
[13:14] <scott-work> but here's a nice dileneation....
[13:15] <scott-work> currently we follow canonical's QA system for the images and are required to participate in the montly image testing
[13:16] <scott-work> but if we offer an alternative image that we build then we might avoid that mandatory involvement in the QA testing
[13:16] <falktx> shnatsel: hey
[13:16] <falktx> hey there everyone
[13:16] <shnatsel> hi falktx 
[13:16] <scott-work> not to say we wouldn't test it, but we wouldn't need to test two basically identical images and double our workload on a monthly basis
[13:16] <falktx> shnatsel: the last package had a small error, I forgot cmake
[13:16] <falktx> and section still seems to be kde
[13:17] <falktx> no kde3/kde4 difference I guess
[13:17] <scott-work> we could test our current image montly, then after release we could make the livedvd, test is specifically for the "live" aspect, then make it available for people :)
[13:17] <scott-work> shnatsel: do you have any objections, suggestions, comments, etc to what i described?
[13:19] <scott-work> falktx: you mentioned hosting a livedvd on your sourceforge page, is that still a valid offer?
[13:19] <falktx> scott-work: yes!
[13:20] <shnatsel> scott-work: I'm OK with that, except for the LiveDVD needs some testing too, and I think it's better to do it before the release, not after
[13:20] <falktx> scott-work: but making it takes a lot of time, so I think it's better to wait until final release, then make one
[13:20] <shnatsel> falktx: not that much
[13:20] <falktx> hm?
[13:21] <shnatsel> falktx: I've apt-built my squashfs-tools, so now I can build live Ubuntu images in ~30 minutes
[13:21] <shnatsel> compression stage takes 2-4 minutes
[13:21] <shnatsel> AuFS mount of squashfs - 1 minute
[13:21] <shnatsel> or less
[13:21] <falktx> shnatsel: 2-4 minutes? what cpu do you have??
[13:22] <falktx> it takes ~30 mins to compress the squash fs for me...
[13:22] <shnatsel> falktx: use apt-build :P
[13:22] <shnatsel> falktx: Core2Quad Q6600
[13:22] <falktx> ah
[13:22] <shnatsel> falktx: I bet Gentoo would build it even faster
[13:22] <falktx> quad
[13:22] <falktx> I have dual core 2.1Ghz
[13:23] <shnatsel> falktx: 2.4 here
[13:23] <falktx> makes sense
[13:23] <shnatsel> falktx: I don't have 100% CPU usage anymore
[13:23] <falktx> shnatsel: have you looked at my script?
[13:23] <shnatsel> falktx: after I apt-built squashfs-tools
[13:23] <shnatsel> now the bottleneck is the hard disk
[13:23] <shnatsel> falktx: which one?
[13:23] <falktx> to make a live iso
[13:24] <shnatsel> falktx: nope. never heard of it.
[13:24] <falktx> http://kxstudio.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=kxstudio/kxstudio;a=blob;f=scripts/kxstudio-create-iso;h=45a71bd0caa04359986fbb5e4989feee05abc9d5;hb=refs/heads/master
[13:24] <shnatsel> gah
[13:24] <shnatsel> one more reinvention of the wheel
[13:24] <falktx> shnatsel: well, it's for personal use
[13:24] <shnatsel> elementary has a similar thing when I came
[13:24] <falktx> but shared as all-is-opensource spirit
[13:25] <shnatsel> falktx: this is a sure overkill. Just use UCK.
[13:25] <falktx> shnatsel: I used that script to build previous KXStudio ISOs
[13:25] <falktx> I like to have control, using an app to make things for me it's not what I want here
[13:26] <shnatsel> falktx: UCK does all the boring  stuff and lets you script the rest
[13:26] <shnatsel> falktx: but, really, the ISO build script should be "uncompress minimal ISO, install metapackage, build ISO"
[13:27] <falktx> my script creates a new empty chroot and builds from there
[13:27] <shnatsel> falktx: UCK does the same.
[13:28] <shnatsel> falktx: but UCK is popular and polished
[13:28] <shnatsel> falktx: and you don't have to care about working around upstream bugs
[13:29] <shnatsel> falktx: moreover, it doesn't stupidly uncompress the base image - it uses an AuFS mount when possible, which speeds up base image uncompression several times
[13:29] <shnatsel> falktx: reinventing it is not a good idea.
[13:29] <falktx> I don't think I'm reinventing, I'm just doing things as I know
[13:30] <falktx> I never used UCK
[13:30] <shnatsel> OK, as you wish
[13:30] <shnatsel> I tried that in elementary and had to give up this approach because debugging and maintaining it took too much time
[13:31] <shnatsel> so I switched to UCK
[13:32] <falktx> shnatsel: consider it this way - I made that script (which are basically the command-line stuff I need to run, just packed), so I'm very confortable with it
[13:32] <shnatsel> then I switched installing separate packages to Germinate-based seeds, because apt-get lines left too much unwanted stuff after them, or pulled it back in on updating some packages
[13:32] <shnatsel> and I got tired of debugging it
[13:33] <falktx> debugging?
[13:33] <shnatsel> falktx: sure
[13:33] <falktx> creating an ISO is simple, it's just take takes a lot of cpu and disk usage
[13:33] <falktx> and my disk already broke once
[13:33] <shnatsel> falktx: lol
[13:33] <falktx> my laptop no longer has warranty, so I need to be extra careful
[13:33] <shnatsel> falktx: bug 799375
[13:34] <shnatsel> falktx: do you know how many times I tracked those recommends and removed them just to get unity back in the ISO in a week?
[13:35] <falktx> shnatsel: ahaha, I never had that problem
[13:35] <falktx> it's all about meta-packages
[13:35] <shnatsel> falktx: yep
[13:35] <falktx> kxstudio meta-packages are simple and clean
[13:35] <shnatsel> falktx: so, elementary build script now looks like "call uck to unpack image, install metapackage, call uck to pack image"
[13:36] <shnatsel> because there's no point in maintaining custom build functions
[13:36] <shnatsel> uck already does it and does it very well
[13:36] <falktx> I believe in you
[13:36] <falktx> but
[13:37] <falktx> "don't fix what ain't broken"
[13:37] <shnatsel> falktx: time will break it.
[13:37] <shnatsel> falktx: unfortunately :(
[13:37] <falktx> shnatsel: if my script stops working, I'll definitely try uck
[13:37] <falktx> but, except maybe for US, I dont plan to build any more ISOs
[13:42] <scott-work> shnatsel: sorry, i probably didn't explain myself properly about testing and a live dvd
[13:42] <scott-work> we would do all the expected testing for the alternative image throughout the cycle, this validates the image and applications
[13:43] <shnatsel> falktx: if you ever plan to do it again, apt-build your squashfs-tools, or even use a compiler that optimizes better than GCC :)
[13:43] <scott-work> then after the "official" (i.e. the buildd built image) is released then we create the "community" image
[13:43] <scott-work> then we test the "community" live dvd only for the "live" aspect, we don't need to reaffirm the packages work, etc 
[13:45] <shnatsel> scott-work: OK
[13:45] <shnatsel> np
[13:46] <shnatsel> whatever is best for you
[13:48] <scott-work> i just wanted to point out that we would test the live dvd, but just a select aspect of it
[13:49] <scott-work> shnatsel: this isn't a firm decision yet and the team really needs to discuss this further on how a live dvd would be created, supported, etc
[13:49] <shnatsel> scott-work: I hope this is none of my business :) Alert me when you make a decision.
[13:49] <scott-work> i think we should also discuss _which_ images we might want, some might suggest eliminating the alternate image completely
[13:50] <shnatsel> yep
[13:50] <shnatsel> it makes even more sense if the ubiquity patch will be a success
[13:50] <shnatsel> s/will be/is/
[13:50] <kubotu> shnatsel meant: "it makes even more sense if the ubiquity patch is a success"
[13:51] <scott-work> shnatsel:  lol, i think we would appreciate your involvment if only to inform us of the available methods and their advantages
[13:51] <scott-work> kubotu: are you a bot?
[13:51] <charlie-tca> kubotu is the bot normally found only in Kubuntu channels
[13:52] <scott-work> charlie-tca: yeah, i know, but sometimes i try to get him to say something
[13:52] <scott-work> but i forgot, i though jussi muted him a while back...hmmm, i wonder what changed
[13:52] <scott-work> that bot used to spout all kinds of crap at random intervals and seemed to be responding to other conversations in other channels :/
[13:53] <charlie-tca> I wish the rest of the bots could give the corrections the way kubotu does
[13:53] <scott-work> lol
[13:53] <shnatsel> elementary's RabbitBot is clever enough to respond to greetings, praise and calling names :)
[13:56] <shnatsel> I don't think that an alternate image is a good idea really
[13:57] <shnatsel> if you don't want to support two images, use livedvd :)
[13:57] <shnatsel> but, let's first make one and see if it works at all
[13:58] <shnatsel> So, I wrote some docs on edubuntu's ubiquity: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JinRIl_hYWJA4L0COe9r5uAX4ZgmfqyIYmC5Tdhfn3o/edit?hl=ru
[13:58] <shnatsel> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JinRIl_hYWJA4L0COe9r5uAX4ZgmfqyIYmC5Tdhfn3o/edit
[13:58] <shnatsel> actually
[13:59] <holstein> yup... +1 live disc
[13:59] <holstein> but, maybe not this cycle
[13:59] <scott-work> shnatsel: did you help edubuntu develop this?
[14:00] <shnatsel> scott-work: nope
[14:00] <shnatsel> scott-work: I just went and questioned stgraber
[14:00] <shnatsel> and then wrote this doc
[14:00] <scott-work> cool
[14:00] <scott-work> cory had mentioned talkign to the edubuntu guys about this
[14:01] <shnatsel> btw, me and stgraber work in some close areas, e.g. he wrote Arkose and I wrote Glimpse. I guess it could be a good idea to team up.
[14:01] <shnatsel> Well, now we have the info :)
[14:04] <shnatsel> So, to get that we need the following:
[14:05] <shnatsel> 1) fix bug 840144
[14:06] <shnatsel> 2) customize edubuntu-live package and make ubuntustudio-live
[14:06] <shnatsel> 3) viola, build the ISO
[14:07] <shnatsel> btw, you have an enormous amount of [needs-packaging] bugs... I'd really want to see darktable in Ubuntu repos
[14:09] <shnatsel> oh, it's available in Oneiric! Yay!
[14:09]  * shnatsel installs in in Glimpse to try it out
[14:16] <shnatsel> wow, darktable is super-cool indeed
[14:17] <scott-work> shnatsel: i offer two comments about [needs-packaging] bugs...
[14:17] <holstein> there was a really nice email on the list too
[14:17] <scott-work> 1. we haven't really had someone to package things
[14:17] <holstein> about xsane
[14:18] <holstein> some other stuff more opinion bases...
[14:18] <holstein> based*
[14:18] <scott-work> 2. REVU (the ubuntu process for new packages) seems to be quite slow and unrepsonsive to audio/graphical/video packages
[14:18] <holstein> is there a REVU channel?
[14:18] <scott-work> holstein: i read that last night or this morning while walking dogs, it's good information
[14:18] <scott-work> holstein: i don't know about a REVU channel
[14:19] <scott-work> shnatsel: but we have found that submitting bugs, or appending launchpad bugs for debian, tends to move things along well
[14:19] <holstein> i think its just *-motu
[14:19] <holstein> scott-work: im going to hang with pete graner today :)
[14:19] <holstein> its his Bday too
[14:19] <scott-work> cool :)
[14:20] <scott-work> he's still with the kernel team, right?
[14:20] <holstein> AFAIK
[14:20] <scott-work> it was JFo that was dropped or quit or whatever
[14:20] <holstein> i havent talked to him in years
[14:20] <holstein> he came to a gig i played in his neighborhood
[14:20] <scott-work> that's awesome
[14:21] <holstein> i havent seen Jfo in a while either
[14:35] <shnatsel> hmm... how do I report a bug in SourceForge?
[14:43] <craigs63> http://sourceforge.net/support       anything on here look like it fits your problem?
[14:43] <craigs63> (I know nothing)
[14:46] <shnatsel> sorry, I meant reporting a bug in an app that is hosted on SourceForge
[14:50] <craigs63> Hard to tell who is "away" on here, or is that the lighter grey user names?
[14:52] <scott-work> craigs63:  depends on your irc client, but in xchat the light gray is away
[14:52] <scott-work> btw, hi craigs63 and christof 
[14:53] <craigs63> using XChat 2.8.8.  Thanks
[14:53] <craigs63> Is there a torrent version of the beta Oneiric dvd? I have better luck with those vs. regular d/l on my laptop.
[14:57] <shnatsel> Wow, darktable is so freaking awesome
[14:58] <shnatsel> you gotta replace shotwell with darktable in ubuntu studio for sure
[15:04] <shnatsel> well, maybe tnot replace, but include it as well for sure
[15:28] <scott-work> craigs63: torrents do not generally exist for images until they are officially released
[15:29] <scott-work> craigs63: you can zync or rzync with some of the daily images however to reduce downloads
[15:29] <scott-work> shnatsel: all that i ask for including applications is to adjust or add to the work flows
[15:30] <shnatsel> scott-work: OK
[15:30] <scott-work> shnatsel: of course if a work flow is made for some task that only 0.01% of users might use then we probably won't include that apps though ;)
[15:30] <scott-work> just a sanity check is all we use
[15:31] <scott-work> shnatsel: you seem very interested in the graphical applications, i am very receptive to your input on creating a more comprehensive grapichical application set
[15:32] <shnatsel> scott-work: I'll try to add more workflows there, but, as I said, I suck at paperwork :(
[15:32] <scott-work> it's kinda funny to see people talk about the ubuntu studio theme because it is old and kinda broken in some ways
[15:33] <scott-work> shnatsel:  the form of the work flows isn't set in stone, it's jsut what i created when i first started them, please feel free to use what is comfortable
[15:33] <craigs63> I installed regular ubuntu, then the studio stuff, so I am not sure I have the "real" themes.
[15:33] <scott-work> shnatsel: also, i'd be happy to assist you with them, if an email to me is better then do that and then i'll write it up
[15:34] <shnatsel> scott-work: OK :)
[15:34] <shnatsel> scott-work: darktable seems to embrace the whole photographic workflow
[15:35] <shnatsel> scott-work: from importing photos from the camera to uploading them to online galleries
[15:35] <shnatsel> I think I'll write this up myself
[15:41] <shnatsel> I think I'll make a PPA for the custom ubiquity and other stuff
[15:42] <shnatsel> anybody willing to work on bug 840144?
[15:42] <scott-work> shnatsel: i would like to hear from either persia or TheMuso about making that change first
[15:42] <shnatsel> scott-work: fine
[15:43] <scott-work> they are some of the original plank owners (and ubuntu core-devs i believe) of ubuntu studio and value their input to make sure any unwanted effects will not occur
[15:44] <shnatsel> scott-work: AFAIK ubuntu have already switched half of its seed dependencies to recommends, edubuntu have switched to recommends completely, elementary uses recommends for the time being
[15:45] <scott-work> shnatsel: i also understand that this would be required for the live media changes via the ubuiqity patch
[15:45] <shnatsel> scott-work: yes
[15:46] <shnatsel> scott-work: this is a requirement for the user to be able to choose some of the packages provided by the metapackage, not all-or-none
[15:46] <scott-work> aye
[15:55] <shnatsel> OK updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
[15:56] <scott-work> awesome, thank you shnatsel !
[16:08] <craigs63> Some of the wiki docs are great, some are saying what the docs _should_ say in the future. 
[16:08] <holstein> i am at my LUG today
[16:08] <holstein> we are talking about the jam this weekend
[16:09] <holstein> i would like to JAM tomorrow on some of the US wikis
[16:09] <holstein> im not going to have time today
[16:12] <shnatsel> falktx: you gotta add packages from ppa:doctormo/wacom-plus to ppa:kxstudio-team/kernel
[16:12] <shnatsel> falktx: that enables recent Wacom tablets
[16:12] <falktx> shnatsel: oh, ok
[16:13] <shnatsel> falktx: btw, what's audio-thumbs in KXStudio-Team Main ?
[16:15] <falktx> shnatsel: thumbs for audio files (displays covers)
[16:15] <shnatsel> falktx: that python thing?
[16:15] <shnatsel> falktx: that fetches covers from amazon?
[16:15] <falktx> don't know if it's python
[16:15] <falktx> shnatsel: no
[16:16] <falktx> shnatsel: it's a small thumbnailer, gets images from music files
[16:16] <falktx> yes, musics have images inside
[16:16] <shnatsel> falktx: it works for individual files or for directories?
[16:16] <falktx> files
[16:16] <shnatsel> hmm
[16:16] <shnatsel> cool
[16:16] <falktx> shnatsel: but kde can thumbnails directories, so it's cool
[16:17] <shnatsel> I tried something similar in the past but it was too slow for general use: http://s59.radikal.ru/i163/1109/00/e335fb0dab52.png
[16:18] <shnatsel> falktx: does that thumbnailer work under xfce?
[16:18] <falktx> shnatsel: no, it's just for kde afaik
[16:19] <shnatsel> that's a pity
[16:20] <falktx> I really don't like nautilus
[16:20] <falktx> it's not that nautilus is not good, dolphin is just much better
[16:22] <shnatsel> falktx: agreed
[16:22] <shnatsel> falktx: we're making Marlin in elementary, it's similar to Dolphin in some aspects
[16:23] <falktx> but then dolphin is also advancing
[16:24] <shnatsel> falktx: yes, 2 years ago I hated it
[16:24] <shnatsel> falktx: now it's actually usable
[16:31] <shnatsel> nautilus-elementary was OK though
[16:31] <falktx> eeh, almost ok
[16:32] <falktx> top terminal didnt worked right
[16:32] <falktx> and I miss option when dragging files around
[16:32] <falktx> *options
[16:32] <falktx> like move, copy, link, extract, etc
[16:32] <falktx> dolphin has those, it's very handy
[16:33]  * falktx is creating a new team for audio plugin development
[16:33] <shnatsel> falktx: it has
[16:33] <falktx> shnatsel: what do you think about the website template? -> http://distrho.sourceforge.net/index.html
[16:33] <shnatsel> falktx: top terminal works fine for me, coverflow works if I tell Clutter not to sync to vblank
[16:34] <shnatsel> falktx: where's the website template?
[16:34] <shnatsel> falktx: there's such a lot of stuff in that page
[16:34] <falktx> shnatsel: top terminal does not handle "ctrl+KEY" events properply
[16:34] <shnatsel> falktx: it does
[16:35] <falktx> shnatsel: it's just the template for now, I'll edit later
[16:35] <falktx> shnatsel: try ctrl+R
[16:35] <shnatsel> falktx: I use Ctrl+C, Ctrl+O and Ctrl+X
[16:35] <shnatsel> falktx: never tried +R
[16:35] <falktx> R is for "history"
[16:35] <falktx> so I don't type the same commands over and over again
[16:36] <shnatsel> falktx: try Ctrl+Shift+R
[16:36] <falktx> can't
[16:36] <falktx> no longer running elementary-mautilus
[16:36] <shnatsel> falktx: I use up arrow
[16:36]  * falktx is on oneiric
[16:36] <falktx> shnatsel: I guess nautilus-elementary is not available for gnome3, or is it?
[16:37] <shnatsel> falktx: Ctrl+Shift+R works
[16:37] <shnatsel> falktx: no, it's not. Marlin is for GNOME3.
[16:37] <falktx> ctrl+r
[16:37] <falktx> not ctrl+shift
[16:37] <shnatsel> falktx: Ctrl+Shift+R does exactly what Ctrl+R does in usual terminal
[16:37] <falktx> shnatsel: on kde, terminal takes full control of keyboard when selected
[16:38] <falktx> for nautilus, keyboard is not grabbed, so some combos are send to the nautilus window itself
[16:39] <shnatsel> falktx: I use open terminal extension instead of embedded terminal if I need something big
[16:40] <falktx> I just got so used to dolphin
[16:40] <falktx> F4, do-this, done
[16:41] <falktx> shnatsel: how far is merlin from being beta/try.out version?
[16:42] <shnatsel> falktx: mArlin
[16:42] <shnatsel> falktx: Not sure. It works, it even does that quite well, but it's not complete yet
[16:42] <shnatsel> falktx: I use it from time to time
[16:43] <falktx> shnatsel: what are the diffs from nautilus? or is it a new product from scratch?
[16:43] <shnatsel> falktx: new product from scratch
[16:43] <falktx> nice
[16:46] <shnatsel> falktx: elementary actually has LOTS of projects, all written from scratch now: https://launchpad.net/elementary
[16:48] <shnatsel> falktx: https://launchpad.net/glimpse is mine, not officially elementar [yet]
[16:49] <falktx> you already know mine, https://launchpad.net/kxstudio
[16:49] <shnatsel> :)
[16:50] <falktx> it's also on sourceforge too, for the hosting and website
[16:50] <falktx> launchpad should allow website hosting
[16:50] <falktx> glimpse.lp.net
[16:51] <shnatsel> falktx: why duplicate sf?
[16:51] <shnatsel> falktx: sf already provides that
[16:51] <falktx> shnatsel: so you can have your project in 1 place only
[16:52] <shnatsel> falktx: huh... doesn't make much sense to me.
[16:52] <shnatsel> I don't need web hosting for my projects anyway.
[16:53] <falktx> hm, how do I make a gtk status icon double-click aware?
[16:54] <shnatsel> falktx: what's a status icon?
[16:54] <falktx> systray
[16:54] <shnatsel> ah
[16:54] <falktx> shnatsel: I have a python class that handles systray cross-desktop
[16:54] <shnatsel> isn't it xembed-based?
[16:54] <falktx> qt and kde works well, but I don't know much about gtk
[16:54] <shnatsel> GNOME Panel used to use xembed
[16:55] <shnatsel> AFAIK
[16:55] <falktx> nope, app-indicator
[16:55] <shnatsel> which sucked
[16:55] <falktx> for xembed I use plain qt
[16:55] <shnatsel> app indicator? It's an api from KDE, isn't it?
[16:55] <shnatsel> falktx: I guess there's no way to do it (there shouldn't be at least)
[16:56]  * falktx looks around
[17:27] <falktx> no way to do this
[18:40] <ScottL> astraljava, ping
[18:40] <ScottL> i'm out and about, but i'll check in from time to time
[23:12] <astraljava> ScottL: pong
[23:12] <ScottL> astraljava, aye