[02:11] <bigbash> ping Cheesehead
[02:17] <Cheesehead> bigbash: pong
[02:18] <bigbash> I was just going to leave a message for you
[02:18] <bigbash> I have a favor to ask please
[02:19] <bigbash> I am being summoned by my family to a baptism tomorrow and most likely won't' be back in time for the bug jam :( Do you think you might be able to be the facilitator/mentor?
[02:19] <Cheesehead> Consider it done.
[02:19] <bigbash> I'm not very happy I have to go, I'm still waiting to power to come back on at work so we can get our servers back up
[02:20] <bigbash> I appreciate it :)
[02:20] <Cheesehead> Are you asking for a just-in-case? Or do think it's pretty realistic you will be late/absent?
[02:20] <bigbash> pretty realistic
[02:20] <Cheesehead> No problem.
[02:21] <bigbash> I really appreciate it
[02:21] <Cheesehead> Family time is more important than anonymous internet geeks...
[02:21] <Cheesehead> ...or so my spouse keeps telling me.
[02:21] <Cheesehead> I believe her.
[02:21] <bigbash> ha, that's what my wife and parents said
[02:22] <Cheesehead> We can geek out on IRC anytime.
[02:22] <Cheesehead> Family time is rarer and wonderful.
[02:22] <bigbash> well I'll be reading the logs when I get back so I can learn from the master on how to facilitate a bug jam
[02:23] <Cheesehead> You'll need to watch a *real* master at work, then. I'm just the guy show showed up and lost the coin toss.
[02:23] <Cheesehead> /show/who
[02:24] <Cheesehead> And who apparently cannot spell
[02:24] <bigbash> I love the analogy
[02:24] <Cheesehead> If you saw the Brainstorm Jam, you'll see the participants did all the real work
[02:25] <bigbash> Thanks again, I'm going to head to bed, up early to check on the power situation for work before I get ready and head down to Milwaukee
[02:25] <Cheesehead> G'night
[02:25] <bigbash> I started reading the logs, but I didn't finish had to go to inlaws
[02:25] <bigbash> night everyone
[12:54] <Cheesehead> Event Reminder: Wisconsin LoCo is running an IRC Bug Jam, Sunday 1700 UTC (four hours from now), in this channel. Great training opportunity for people new to bugs. If you have a favorite bug, bring it along!
[14:08] <Cheesehead> Test: Bug 828346
[14:08] <Cheesehead> heh heh heh
[15:07] <trinikrono> bug jam?
[15:08] <trinikrono> i think i am 2 hours early lol
[15:18] <Cheesehead> trinikrono: Indeed, 1:42 from now
[15:44] <lostson>  hope you have a good turnout and squash some bugs
[16:01] <Cheesehead> lostson: Thanks
[16:33] <Cheesehead> Event Reminder: Bug Jam in this channel in 0:27
[16:46] <yotux> Cheesehead:  Thanks,  are we going to use two channels or just one like yesterday
[16:48] <Cheesehead> yotux: Let's start with one, and spread out as-needed
[16:48] <yotux> Cheesehead: okay
[16:50] <Cheesehead> We'll need to see how many new-to-bugs participants we have, and how many experienced-jump-right-in folks
[16:52] <yotux> Cheesehead: I understand it was fun yesterday,  bug are a little more scary to mean.  I am printing the triage guide at the moment to go over again
[16:52] <yotux> sorry I can't seem to type this morning  bugs are scary to me
[16:53] <Cheesehead> That's what makes the group-format nice. Nobody needs to know everything, and there's time to look stuff up
[16:53] <Cheesehead> ...and use the bathroom and eat lunch, etc
[16:54] <ashams> yotux: Hi, I never heared about such guide "the triage guide"
[16:54] <Cheesehead> ashams: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage
[16:55] <Cheesehead> You don't know about it until somebody tells you.
[16:55] <yotux> ashams:  as cheeshead said https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage/
[16:55] <EgyParadox> did the ugj start?
[16:55] <Cheesehead> Not really, we're all just eager!
[16:55]  * Cheesehead goes to #ubuntu-bugs to give the 5-minute warning
[16:56] <ashams> Cheesehead: thanx, I assumed they finally made a consistent PDF :D
[16:56] <yotux> ashams:  it fits nicely into 10 pgs
[16:56] <yotux> I used lib office to paste and print
[16:57] <Cheesehead> The types of bugs change over time, so it's a dynamic guide.
[16:57] <Cheesehead> A few years ago, there were a lot more X and pulseaudio and printing bugs
[16:58] <trinikrono> i just got hggh to edit it
[16:59] <trinikrono> so it has a new piece in the section invaliditing
[16:59] <Cheesehead> trinikrono: Great! That's changed since I last invalidated a bug...I learn more about bugs each time I touch one.
[17:00] <Cheesehead> ..
[17:00] <Cheesehead> Hello, everyone here for the Wisconsin Bug Jam.
[17:00] <Cheesehead> Activity in this channel is logged - you can get the logs at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/04/%23ubuntu-us-wi
[17:00] <Cheesehead> All abilities are welcome, no experience necessary!
[17:00] <Cheesehead> ..
[17:00] <Cheesehead> Let's see how many participants we have here. Could everyone active in this channel please give a response?
[17:00] <trinikrono> +1
[17:00] <yotux> Here +2
[17:01]  * Cheesehead laughs
[17:01] <Cheesehead> I know we have more than that. Lag, perhaps.
[17:01] <Cheesehead> Everybody else, feel free to jump in!
[17:01] <ashams> o/
[17:01] <Cheesehead> There are a few goals here today:
[17:01] <Cheesehead> 1) Meet new people and have fun
[17:01] <Cheesehead> 2) If you brought a bug along, work it together
[17:01] <Cheesehead> 3) Learn how to Triage some of the wide variety of bugs
[17:01] <Cheesehead> 4) If you're new to bugs, learn the life cycle of bugs, the tools, and where to begin
[17:02] <Cheesehead> You *don't* need to be a bug guru already! The great thing about working together is that everybody learns
[17:02] <Cheesehead> ..
[17:02] <Cheesehead> SETTING UP
[17:02] <Cheesehead> A couple questions to gauge the expertise level in the room - feel free to throw out answers:
[17:02] <Cheesehead> Question: Did anybody bring a favorite bug that they want to work?
[17:02] <Cheesehead> Question: Does anybody here consider themselves pretty experienced with any kind of bugs?
[17:02] <Cheesehead> Question: Is anybody here interested in any particular kind of bug?
[17:03] <trinikrono> i just applied to bug control
[17:03] <trinikrono> o.o
[17:03] <yotux> didn't bring a bug,  new / some apport experience, open minded
[17:04]  * trinikrono goes looking for a bug
[17:05] <Cheesehead> ashams: How much bug experience do you want to have?
[17:05] <ashams> Cheesehead: a lot
[17:05] <Cheesehead> All right! I can just go sleep on the couch then!
[17:06] <Cheesehead> Does anyone want to see the text on (simplified) bug-life-cycle?
[17:06] <Cheesehead> Does anyone not know what a Launchpad Account is?
[17:07] <Cheesehead> Everyone ready to jump in the pool? (Shallow end first)
[17:07] <ashams> Cheesehead: Have a nice dreams :D
[17:08] <yotux> I know what a lauchpad account is
[17:08] <trinikrono> go ahead
[17:08] <Cheesehead> Let's start with an easy one: Bug 828346
[17:08] <Cheesehead> Jump in and share your thoughts.
[17:08] <trinikrono> ok
[17:09] <Cheesehead> We'll reach a consensus before acting
[17:09]  * trinikrono raises hand
[17:09] <Cheesehead> trinikrono: go ahead anytime
[17:09] <trinikrono> no apport info!
[17:09] <Cheesehead> Is it a crash?
[17:09] <Cheesehead> (apport usually only generates a report during a crash)
[17:10] <yotux> seems the package is wrong
[17:10] <Cheesehead> yotux: Good eyes!
[17:10] <Cheesehead> It indeed lacks a package!
[17:10] <Cheesehead> What else?
[17:10] <ashams> lacks files
[17:10] <yotux> also the doc bar is not directly controlled by nvidia package.
[17:11] <Cheesehead> yotux: Great spotting!
[17:11] <yotux> what package did the user install?
[17:11] <Cheesehead> Perhaps we have an inexperienced reporter?
[17:11] <yotux> I would ask what package was installed
[17:11] <Cheesehead> What package would an inexperienced user claim 'recommends' a proprietary video driver?
[17:12] <yotux> I would assume this
[17:12] <yotux> but we can't send assumptions to devs / upstream
[17:12] <trinikrono> jockey?
[17:12] <Cheesehead> trinikrono: Yes!
[17:13] <yotux> I would says ask for me info.  wait a while and then possible invalid
[17:13] <Cheesehead> Possible.
[17:13] <Cheesehead> Let's explore Jockey for a second.
[17:13] <Cheesehead> Imagine you are the user.
[17:14] <Cheesehead> Jockey tells you to install NVIDAI proprietary
[17:14] <Cheesehead> You restart, and video is great...
[17:14] <Cheesehead> But now your FN-hotkeys  stop working
[17:14] <Cheesehead> Could this be what the user is trying to say?
[17:15] <yotux> It could be,   the screen shot makes it look like even gui stopped working
[17:15] <Cheesehead> trinikrono, ashams: What do you think?
[17:16] <trinikrono> i think
[17:16] <trinikrono> it sounds the same
[17:16] <trinikrono> but wont the nvidia package be at fault
[17:16] <trinikrono> and not jockey?
[17:16] <ashams> Cheesehead: don't know, maybe Xorg needs reconfig?
[17:17] <Cheesehead> trinikrono: Excellent point!
[17:17] <Cheesehead> How can we help the user narrow the possible problems?
[17:17] <trinikrono> try the nouveo driver :D
[17:18] <Cheesehead> Let's try something else - somebody try a quick Google search for the keywords. See if any similar complaints pop up.
[17:19] <Cheesehead> SOmebody else, try searching the Launchpad bugs, see if this might be a duplicate of an already-reported issue
[17:19] <trinikrono> you mean to search for similar bugs
[17:19] <Cheesehead> trinikrono: Correct!
[17:19] <ashams> Cheesehead: Why did he think that changing system name would help?
[17:20] <trinikrono> yes i wondered about that also
[17:20] <Cheesehead> ashams: People do all kinds of strange stuff.
[17:20]  * trinikrono needs to goto the grocery for 20mins brb sorry!
[17:20] <Cheesehead> trinikrono: See you back soon!
[17:21] <Cheesehead> When I have a problem, I do strange stuff, too.
[17:21] <Cheesehead> Then, later, I wonder - why did I do that?
[17:21] <Cheesehead> Another great place to check is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
[17:22] <Cheesehead> to see if any similar class of bugs already has a prepared response
[17:23] <yotux> I have something close bug 128452
[17:25]  * Cheesehead is reading it...
[17:26] <ashams> Cheesehead: found a lot on lp, but none of them the same as ours
[17:27] <Cheesehead> Okay, so seems like nothing close enough to be considered a duplicate yet.
[17:27] <Cheesehead> What's your impression - is this really a bug? Or is it a support request?
[17:28] <yotux> I would lean toward support
[17:28] <ashams> Support reques
[17:28] <ashams> request*
[17:28] <ashams> is it in acpi pkg?
[17:28] <Cheesehead> Could it be a bug in the NVIDIA driver?
[17:28] <Cheesehead> Or int he way the kernel uses the driver?
[17:28] <ashams> Nvidia works fine
[17:29] <ashams> when the Nvidia got installed it changed some config
[17:29] <ashams> maybe in xorg or acpi I assume!
[17:29] <Cheesehead> So perhaps he should revert to the open driver and see if the issue goes away?
[17:29] <Cheesehead> ashams: Excellent point!
[17:29] <yotux> agree
[17:30] <ashams> let's order him to uninstall Nvidia then install open driver
[17:31]  * ashams brb after 10 mins, sorry
[17:31] <Cheesehead> ashams: See you back in 10
[17:31] <Cheesehead> !
[17:31] <Cheesehead> (oh, no, everybody's leaving!)
[17:32]  * Cheesehead laughs
[17:32] <yotux> Sorry I'm still here
[17:32] <Cheesehead> Well, what do you think we ought to do with the poor fellow?
[17:33] <yotux> I would say he need to revert to open source driver
[17:33] <yotux> See if this help out
[17:33] <yotux> I also noticed he install a custom doc bar on the button
[17:33] <Cheesehead> I missed that!
[17:33] <yotux> Other software could be effecting configs.  Start with open source driver
[17:34] <yotux> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/77473344/Screenshot-3.png
[17:34] <yotux> Volume doesn't appear disabled just muted
[17:34] <Cheesehead> He heh. A doc bar that undoes all the Unity design work...
[17:34] <Cheesehead> hi, komputes!
[17:35] <komputes> hi Cheesehead
[17:35] <Cheesehead> we were just admiring bug 828346
[17:36] <Cheesehead> yotux: Do you think it's possible that one of tose other cusomizations may be trapping the FN-keys?
[17:36] <yotux> Cheesehead: I not sure how the dock bar works
[17:36] <komputes> Cheesehead: looking...
[17:36] <yotux> Cheesehead:  it could change the way gnome interacts
[17:37] <Cheesehead> Nor I. If it were my system, I would revert to working, and install one-at-a-time untill it breaks...
[17:37] <Cheesehead> A few iterations in different order until I caould isolate the culprit
[17:37] <yotux> Cheesehead: I would agree
[17:38] <Cheesehead> ...assuming that installing something really is the culprit
[17:39] <yotux> Cheesehead:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CairoDock
[17:39] <yotux> looks like this is the doc bar he installed
[17:40] <komputes> Cheesehead: would be useful to get the hardware info. assign to linux and ask for apprt-collect bugnumber
[17:40] <Cheesehead> komputes: Is there a clue that this is a kernel issue?
[17:41] <komputes> Cheesehead: I was saying that just to get the hardware info, in fact these should be two seperate bugs AFAICT
[17:42] <Cheesehead> komputes: Whew. I questioned my grip on reality there for a moment!
[17:43] <yotux> so we need more info to proceed
[17:43] <yotux> I would say leave user a comment for more info,  possible even give instruction on how to get more info
[17:44] <Cheesehead> yotux: Agreed. I always try to hand-hold the user along the next step if more info is needed.
[17:44] <Cheesehead> If the user is new to the process (and who han;t been?), then how are they supposed to knw?
[17:45] <yotux> I myself am not sure what commands to tell him to run
[17:45] <yotux> I use apport to report most / all of my bugs
[17:46] <komputes> it's highly likely this is hardware specific
[17:46] <Cheesehead> Well, for the hardware data collection, I suppose 'apport-collect 828346'
[17:47] <Cheesehead> komputes: Do you think it's worthwhile for the user to check for an install conflict? The NVIDIA driver? Cairo-dock?
[17:48] <komputes> ask for apport info, mark incomplete.
[17:48] <komputes> and subscribe for the follow-up
[17:48] <crog> Cheesehead: hey there
[17:48] <Cheesehead> crog: Welcome!
[17:48] <Cheesehead> crog: Just arrived? Or been following?
[17:48] <crog> just arrived, but read everything up to now...
[17:49] <komputes> I would check (if the user has many customizations) to see if it's reproducable in a neutreal testing environment such as a USB installation or LiveCD (latter causing issues if testing nvidia binary)
[17:50] <Cheesehead> So apport info, check for reproducability, mark incomplete, assign to Linux, subscribe for follow-up?
[17:50] <Cheesehead> ...advise submitter to check for reproducability...
[17:50] <yotux> Cheesehead:  agree
[17:51] <crog> newbie question:  Does apport help if there wasn't a crash?
[17:51] <Cheesehead> Apport can be run manually
[17:51] <Cheesehead> It helps in some situations other than crashes
[17:51] <Cheesehead> Like gathering hardware info
[17:52] <Cheesehead> Ready for the next one?
[17:52] <crog> got it - we need to ask the submitter to run it on his machine, and we'll get config details....
[17:52] <Cheesehead> ..
[17:52] <Cheesehead> Next: Bug 831647
[17:53] <Cheesehead> This seems like a pretty easy one at first glance.
[17:54] <ashams> Cheesehead: Hi again, Ready for the next one
[17:55] <Cheesehead> Welcome back! We're admiring Bug 831647
[17:55] <crog> 3rd posted text file: couple local settings are set to gl_ES, but LANG still shows en_US.
[17:56] <crog> Is next step to try an reproduce?  (or possibly some searching first?)
[17:57] <yotux> first set would be to reproduce
[17:57] <ashams> I think that he's not using the right way, so let's advice him first
[17:57] <crog> also first sentence says: "trying to set language, and havn't found a proper way"
[17:57] <crog> So probably look for documentatoin...
[17:58] <yotux> also this is alpha distro so how important is this
[17:58] <yotux> suggest doc,  but doc may not be done yet if doc team hasn't gotten to it
[17:58] <Cheesehead> crog: I think you found a vital piece of evidence in that text file.
[17:59] <Cheesehead> Many locale settings were changed, but the system language was still en_us, not gl_es
[17:59] <yotux> I now see that
[17:59] <crog> regarding docs - I suspect something like "how to change your language" doesn't really change much from version to version
[18:00] <crog> community docs:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingLanguages
[18:01] <Cheesehead> I don't see the language-support-gl package in his list of installed packages
[18:01] <crog> This says.... this language will be used for newlyl created users, but not for your future sessions.
[18:01] <crog> To change for your next session, you need to change it from your login screen.
[18:02] <crog> I have 11.10 in a virtual machine.  Is it worth taking the time to follow these steps and see if there are any problems?
[18:02] <yotux> the names have changed and the structure has changed also
[18:03] <crog> Or should we just point the user to this wiki page?
[18:03] <yotux> I would say refer to wiki
[18:03] <yotux> its easy to get to the right place from there
[18:03] <yotux> system settings -> lang. support
[18:03] <yotux> This is the new unity was
[18:04] <Cheesehead> Launchpad has a feature to convert support requests into Launchpad Answers
[18:04] <yotux> was = way sorry
[18:04] <yotux> I read something about that
[18:04] <Cheesehead> Right-hand-column: Convert to a question
[18:04] <crog> Cheesehead: Yeah - seems like that's the way to go..
[18:05] <yotux> I agree
[18:05] <Cheesehead> So, the consensus is convert to a Launchpad Question, and the answer explains and points to the wiki?
[18:06] <yotux> Cheesehead:  since the wikik direction are from back in 2009 do we also need to make a doc request to update?
[18:06] <ashams> Cheesehead: wait
[18:06] <ashams> we need to ask him to use the right way before converting to a request
[18:06] <ashams> we're not sure if it's abug of not
[18:06] <Cheesehead> yotux: Most wiki updates are user-created. So you and I can do that.
[18:07] <Cheesehead> ashams: That's an excellent point!
[18:07] <crog> before updating wiki, I'd verify the steps, and try out another language for a session or two.
[18:07] <Cheesehead> crog: Definitely!
[18:08] <ashams> crog: gr8
[18:08] <Cheesehead> So the consensus is to:
[18:08] <Cheesehead> 1) Ask the user to try it the right way - confirm if it's a bug or not
[18:08] <Cheesehead> 2) If it's not a bug, convert to a question
[18:09] <Cheesehead> 3) Spend a bit of time updating the Wiki (submitter may want to help?)
[18:09]  * ashams agrees
[18:09] <Cheesehead> 4) Subscribe to the bug for follow-up, of course
[18:10] <Cheesehead> Any final comments on this bug?
[18:11] <Cheesehead> ..
[18:11] <crog> nope - sounds good
[18:11] <ashams> nope, sounds very good
[18:11] <Cheesehead> Here's one I had a second look at: Bug 86896
[18:12] <Cheesehead> Before trying to figure out the problem...
[18:12] <Cheesehead> ...see if there is anything strange going on.
[18:13] <crog> submitter changed to confirmed...
[18:13] <Cheesehead> crog: Yes indeed. Confirmiong your own bug is a big no-no
[18:14] <crog> other than that - this is for Jaunty - need to have him try on a current version
[18:15] <crog> I havne't had a chance to review the Triage guide in full, but I'd look for a way to mark it invalid
[18:15] <crog> If it's a problem, it can be resubmitted.
[18:15] <Cheesehead> Yeah, it's 4 years old.
[18:16] <Cheesehead> But, um...what's the problem?
[18:16] <crog> well, since you said not to look at that yet...  (jk)
[18:16] <ashams> Why would apt-get hang, bad connection, broken packages, a crash?
[18:17] <crog> might it be waiting for a lock as well?
[18:17] <crog> ahhh - any in his post marked "repeating"
[18:18] <crog> His apt is looking for a feisty file, and not finding it.
[18:18] <Cheesehead> crog: AWESOME spotting!
[18:18] <Cheesehead> Is this really a bug at all?
[18:19] <crog> small chance it could be, but most likely a confirguration issue
[18:19] <crog> man... irc lets through a whole lot more typos and mispellings than email.
[18:20] <Cheesehead> crog: Sure does.
[18:20] <ashams> crog: Excellent
[18:20] <ashams> It is a bug
[18:21] <crog> I don't know that it's a bug
[18:21] <ashams> because apt isn't updated by system update
[18:21] <Cheesehead> Is this issue (bug or misconfiguration) going to be reproducable?
[18:22] <ashams> I think it's not a misconfig, because it was made auto
[18:22] <crog> it's logging the reason
[18:22] <crog> ashams: do we know that?
[18:22] <ashams> crog: Not sure :P
[18:23] <crog> Cheesehead: not on those versions
[18:23] <Cheesehead> Shouldn't /var/lib/apt/lists be cleaned during a release-upgrade?
[18:23]  * ashams has no idea
[18:24] <crog> Cheesehead: perhaps... Again, it maybe something that has already been fixed.
[18:24] <crog> may also be that apt was fine, and there was a power outage when he upgraded from Feisty to Jaunty
[18:25] <Cheesehead> Or some other non-critical error that prevented the cleaning
[18:25] <crog> Someone with the expertise could re-read through the install scripts to see whether such a cleanup step exists
[18:25] <crog> to confirm whether it's a bug.
[18:26] <crog> brb...
[18:26] <Cheesehead> Since it's 4 years old, should we check with the submitter to see if it's still a issue?
[18:27] <ashams> Cheesehead: yep
[18:28] <Cheesehead> A response like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses#Old_untouched_bugs ?
[18:28] <Cheesehead> and mark incomplete, and subscribe to the bug for follow-up?
[18:28] <ashams> Cheesehead: I hate those tedious responses
[18:29] <Cheesehead> ashams: They do have their place.
[18:29] <ashams> Cheesehead: copy-n-paste reponses and reporters will fly away ;)
[18:30] <Cheesehead> It's nice to know that the pre-written response is polite, appropriate for the situation, and covers most use cases. You can always personalize it more.
[18:30] <Cheesehead> Perhaps "I've been looking this over, and I noticed that... and then a second paragraph incorparating the pre-written response."
[18:31] <Cheesehead> ashams: Great point - sometimes the pre-written response is mistaken nor not-caring.
[18:31] <Cheesehead> /nor/for
[18:32] <Cheesehead> I have seen copy-n-paste responses used inappropriately, too.
[18:32] <ashams> Cheesehead: I usually love to refine them before replying
[18:32] <ashams> Cheesehead: let's focus on triage :D
[18:32] <Cheesehead> Everyone having fun?
[18:33] <Cheesehead> Anyone learning anything?
[18:33] <crog> yep
[18:33] <crog> yep
[18:33] <ashams> yep, a lot
[18:33] <Cheesehead> How about Next: Bug 340417
[18:33] <yotux> yeah
[18:34] <Cheesehead> Here you see apport in action on a crash.
[18:35] <ashams> bad description:(
[18:35] <Cheesehead> ashams: What's bad about it?
[18:36] <ashams> Cheesehead: 1 line description, strange
[18:36] <Cheesehead> ashams: It can be hard to describe what's important, especially if you are too close ot the problem
[18:36] <Cheesehead> /ot/to
[18:37]  * ashams convinced
[18:37] <Cheesehead> In this case, when you get to the comments, you can see a triager has already been here.
[18:38] <crog> I think jdstrand has already asked the important questions
[18:38] <ashams> yeah, and no response since that
[18:38] <crog> based on the stacktrace - looks like it's mostly system calls
[18:38] <crog> Could be cron
[18:38] <crog> Could be kernel
[18:39] <crog> could be hard-ware dependant
[18:39] <Cheesehead> Question: When a triager asks a question, what change should you make to the bug to indicate that a reply is expected?
[18:39] <crog> It says this is in a virtual machine - so could be that
[18:39] <ashams> if HW-dependent, itmight be the VM
[18:39] <ashams> crog: bingo
[18:40] <Cheesehead> Anyone know how to mark a bug?
[18:40] <crog> Cheesehead: Change status to Incomplete...
[18:40] <Cheesehead> crog: ding ding ding!
[18:41] <crog> so for this one, we probbaly just do that and move on.
[18:41] <Cheesehead> That's right. So jdstrand didn't mark the bug Incomplete.
[18:42] <Cheesehead> What can we do about it?
[18:42] <Cheesehead> (Triage is all about people, and people make mistakes all the time. Just look at my spelling!)
[18:43] <crog> I think we should just mark the bug and go on...
[18:43] <ashams> YES
[18:43] <crog> we could (maybe should) send jdstrand an email
[18:44] <ashams> crog: why, he already did his job
[18:44] <Cheesehead> Or, perhaps, jump into #ubuntu-bugs, and see if he's there?
[18:44] <crog> I probably wouldn't
[18:44] <ashams> may be we need to remind the reporter
[18:44] <crog> because not everyone likes to see their errors pointed out.
[18:44] <crog> But... if we don't let them know, they may continue missing this important step.
[18:44] <ashams> 9.04 is almost at EOL
[18:45] <Cheesehead> "jdstrand: On bug 340417, is it okay if I mark the bug Incomplete?"
[18:45]  * trinikrono back :D
[18:45] <Cheesehead> welcome back!
[18:45] <Cheesehead> I generally recommend checking with a previous triager before trying to redo their work
[18:46] <Cheesehead> We have all been in a situation where two teachers try to teach the same thing...
[18:46] <crog> Cheesehead: Yes, Jamie is in that channel now - it's a good idea!
[18:46] <Cheesehead> and step all over each other.
[18:47] <Cheesehead> Or a restaurant or store where two people interfere with each other and give you (the customer) a bad experience
[18:47] <Cheesehead> and we have all had some work partner who made *more* work for us instead of less
[18:48] <Cheesehead> I predict 95% chance that jdstrand doesn;t remember this bug and has not problem with us going ahead and marking it incomplete...
[18:48] <crog> Cheesehead: a big factor is if you know the person...
[18:48] <Cheesehead> But in the Ubuntu community it's still polite to ask and check first
[18:49] <crog> if youre on the same page, it's probably find to just go ahead.
[18:49] <Cheesehead> crog: Well, now you'll know him.
[18:49] <crog> re: asking first - yes, great idea
[18:49] <crog> doh!
[18:50] <Cheesehead> heh heh. I just left a message fro crog in #ubuntu-bugs
[18:50] <trinikrono> lol
[18:50] <trinikrono> so what are we working on now
[18:50] <trinikrono> i see alot went on
[18:50] <Cheesehead> We're wrapping up 340417
[18:50] <crog> we're ready for another one, right?
[18:50] <Cheesehead> Is the consesnsus to check with jdstrand, then invalidate the bug?
[18:50] <Cheesehead> /invalidate/inccomplete
[18:51] <crog> righto
[18:51] <ashams> it's just a mistake, what can it be else?
[18:51] <ashams> jdstrand: made a simple mistake, no more, I assume
[18:51] <Cheesehead> Agreed, I'm sure it's a mistake. But it's polite to ask.
[18:52] <trinikrono> i think better to just mark it incomplete
[18:52] <trinikrono> unless you know jdstrand personally
[18:52] <Cheesehead> Is there a hurry? It's been open a year?
[18:52] <Cheesehead> I don't know jdstrand personally.
[18:52] <crog> Cheesehead: right, but if you don' change it, it will be another year
[18:53] <ashams> We can just reply again and mark it incomplete, thus we cover jdstrand ;)
[18:53] <trinikrono> it looks like it should of been marked incomplete in the first place
[18:53] <trinikrono> since it was questions he asked
[18:53] <Cheesehead> One more moment on this issue - this is actually pretty important.
[18:53] <trinikrono> i think the best thing
[18:53] <Cheesehead> In this case, I go back to the Code of Conduct
[18:53] <trinikrono> is to ask if the user still experiences the problem
[18:54] <ashams> what CoC can do?
[18:54] <Cheesehead> trinikrono: That's also a valid course of action.
[18:54] <ashams> can Coc do?*
[18:54] <Cheesehead> The Code of Conduct: Patience and Respect
[18:54] <Cheesehead> We don;t know the culture of either the submitter or jdstrand,
[18:54] <Cheesehead> so we should be as polite as possible
[18:55] <Cheesehead> There are cultures where it's okay to dive in (India), and other where it's not (Japan)
[18:55] <ashams> but if we told him about such a mistake, we may cause Embarrassment
[18:56] <Cheesehead> We can tell him in an indirect way, by asking if he approves this course of action.
[18:56] <Cheesehead> Every culture has a way of pointing out mistakes. Me must simply use an apprporate way
[18:57] <crog> Cheesehead: yes - your approach @ 13:45 is the best approach. In this case we know how to reach them.
[18:57] <Cheesehead> Ooh, lots of mispellings there!
[18:57] <crog> What if we didn't?  leave it open?
[18:57] <crog> I suspect this is not a huge important bug, or it would have been dealt with sooner.
[18:57] <Cheesehead> If we simply closed it, then we might be making extra wlor for somebody else.
[18:57] <crog> But a bug that sits in limbo doesn't healp anyone
[18:57] <Cheesehead> /wlor/work
[18:58] <crog> No - don't close it.
[18:58] <crog> make a best effort to ask first, and then mark incomplete
[18:58] <Cheesehead> crog: Agreed.
[18:58] <ashams> crog: I agree too
[18:58] <ashams> consensus ?
[18:58] <Cheesehead> We all make mistakes. We all want to be told nicely about them. We all want to improve.
[18:59] <Cheesehead> Consensus: Contact jdstrand, then makr Incomplete?
[18:59]  * Cheesehead curses his fumbly fingers
[19:00]  * Cheesehead laughs
[19:00] <crog> y
[19:00] <Cheesehead> Next: Bug 83389
[19:00] <Cheesehead> (Yes, a cron theme today)
[19:02] <Cheesehead> Is anyone unfamiliar with the apt-cache commands?
[19:03] <crog> eckhofer confirmed the bug, but the status is not confirmed
[19:03] <crog> Cheesehead: I am
[19:03] <crog> (unfamilar)
[19:03] <Cheesehead> crog: Good spotting of confirmation
[19:03] <Cheesehead> apt-cache is an incredibly handy little utility
[19:04] <Cheesehead> pop open a terminal and do a 'apt-cache search firefox'
[19:04] <Cheesehead> It will show you every package in the cache with the word firefox in the title or description
[19:04] <Cheesehead> Then, try apt-cache show firefox for the database entry for the package
[19:05] <Cheesehead> including description and dependencies
[19:05] <Cheesehead> Since it's all text, it's greppable (very handy)
[19:05] <Cheesehead> In this bug, do the comments indicate that we seem to have a missing dependency?
[19:06] <crog> right -  but I'd need to install htdig to check this.
[19:06] <Cheesehead> no, you just need apt-cache
[19:06] <crog> or I know synaptic lists the dependancies, so I'd probably go there.
[19:06] <crog> yeah - I see...
[19:06] <crog> thanks
[19:06] <Cheesehead> apt-cache and synaptic pull from the same source.
[19:07] <Cheesehead> Try 'apt-cache depends htdig'
[19:07] <crog> awesome tool then
[19:07] <Cheesehead> And then try 'apt-cache rdepends htdig', too.
[19:07] <Cheesehead> Very handy for looking for something specific, like packaged that handle dotty files: 'apt-cache search dotty'
[19:08] <Cheesehead> So, what are the current lockfile dependencies for htdig?
[19:08] <crog> the dependency is listed - so the problems' likely already fixed
[19:09] <Cheesehead> ashams: What do you think?
[19:09] <crog> Id' ask them to try again on a current version
[19:09] <Cheesehead> trinikrono: Any opinion?
[19:09] <crog> or better - track down the specific version that contains the fix
[19:09] <Cheesehead> crog: http://changelogs.ubuntu/com
[19:10] <Cheesehead> yotux: Still with us?
[19:10] <ashams> Cheesehead: I don't know why you check deps?
[19:11] <Cheesehead> ashams: Becasue of this comment: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/htdig/+bug/83389/comments/3
[19:11] <crog> ashams: the person that said they confirmed specifically mentioned that was the cause of the problem - a missing dependency
[19:11] <Cheesehead> But then they didn't do the next step...
[19:11] <Cheesehead> What is the next step?
[19:12] <crog> I think we want to assume they're correct - though its possible the submitter and confirmer are not looking at exactly the same problem, it's most likly the case
[19:12] <ashams> Cheesehead: Yeah, now I see, thanks :D
[19:12] <Cheesehead> ashams: That's way we do this together!
[19:13] <ashams> but why the daily runs when weekly does?
[19:13] <Cheesehead> Great question!
[19:14] <Cheesehead> Take a look at your crontabs. When do your daily and weekly run?
[19:15] <Cheesehead> One day each week, mine run 22 minutes apart.
[19:15] <Cheesehead> The daily has 22 minutes to finish before weekly runs.
[19:16] <ashams> yeah!
[19:17] <Cheesehead> In this case, weekly cannot create a lockfile.
[19:17] <Cheesehead> Normally, that should happen only if daily is still running.
[19:18] <ashams> I see
[19:18] <Cheesehead> Anacron will also affect it
[19:18] <crog> Cheesehead: you mentioned http://changelogs.ubuntu.com
[19:18] <crog> I think it was faster to go to
[19:18] <crog> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/htdig/+changelog
[19:18] <crog> unless there's a good way to search  the changlogs site
[19:19] <Cheesehead> ashams: If you turn oun your computer, sometime around when they bothe run, anacron will reschedule them so they don;t try to run at the same time.
[19:19] <crog> This was fixed in feisty
[19:19] <Cheesehead> crog: Great point! I never though of that!
[19:19] <crog> closed but #364022
[19:19] <Cheesehead> Bug 346022
[19:19] <Cheesehead> Bug 364022
[19:20] <crog> I mean closes bug #  yeah, you know
[19:20] <Cheesehead> Was that a gnome bug?
[19:20] <crog> maybe a typo in the bug number in the change log?
[19:20] <ashams> Cheesehead: you are brilliant :D
[19:21]  * ashams brb in 10 mins, sorry :(
[19:21] <Cheesehead> No, I'm just the guy who showed up. You should meet my brother. *He's* incredible.
[19:21] <crog> if we could find the bug it really fixes, we could mark as duplicate, link them, close this one
[19:21] <crog> Or... just mark this as fix released.
[19:21] <Cheesehead> crog: Exactly
[19:22]  * Cheesehead is cruising, looking for that bug
[19:23] <crog> Cheesehead: might the bug number in the change log be an upstream number, or is that a Ubuntu-specific thing?
[19:23] <Cheesehead> I googled the string "htdig now depends on lockfile-progs"
[19:24] <Cheesehead> It's a Debian bug number
[19:24] <Cheesehead> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=364022
[19:24] <Cheesehead> Another option is to upstream thi bug to Debian.
[19:25] <Cheesehead> Launchpad will figure out that it's fixed and close the bug for us.
[19:25] <crog> nice
[19:26] <Cheesehead> Changelog link (for reference): https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/htdig/1:3.2.0b6-1
[19:26] <EgyParadox> Bug 1
[19:26] <Cheesehead> EgyParadox: Hello!
[19:26] <EgyParadox> Hii
[19:26] <EgyParadox> Hi*
[19:26] <Cheesehead> Funny that the 'bot didn;t pick it up
[19:26] <Cheesehead> Bug #1
[19:26] <EgyParadox> yeah lol
[19:26] <Cheesehead> Bug #0001
[19:27] <EgyParadox> the most important bug I believe
[19:27] <Cheesehead> Oh, well.
[19:27] <Cheesehead> True, working on it...
[19:27] <EgyParadox> Does anybody have issues with the document viewer?
[19:27] <EgyParadox> oneriic
[19:28] <Cheesehead> Well, mine doesn't make me a sandwich.
[19:28] <Cheesehead> But mine's not 11.10
[19:28] <Cheesehead> What sorts of problems?
[19:28] <ashams> Cheesehead: pick a bug for evince?
[19:29] <Cheesehead> Okay, one moment...
[19:29] <EgyParadox> it turns out the files are corrupt :S
[19:30] <Cheesehead> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evince
[19:30] <ashams> EgyParadox: it might be the doc itself
[19:30] <Cheesehead> EgyParadox: Do they open in other viewers? Or older versions?
[19:30] <EgyParadox> nope
[19:30] <ashams> EgyParadox: Files relly corrupted
[19:30] <ashams> really*
[19:32] <Cheesehead> Here we are: Bug 287646
[19:32] <Cheesehead> (I like that bot)
[19:33] <Cheesehead> You can see that we haven;t even *touched* real traiging, we're still just wading through non-bugs, and old, un-followed-up stuff
[19:34] <Cheesehead> That's why it's considered good practice to subscribe to the bugs you work, and follow up on them
[19:34] <Cheesehead> So nobody comes along a year or three later and asks "Why is this still open?"
[19:35] <Cheesehead> You can see that following up on bugs is a weakness in our community.
[19:35] <crog> I'm not even seeing what the problem is...
[19:36] <Cheesehead> EgyParadox, ashams: What do you think?
[19:37] <ashams> not evince at all
[19:38] <Cheesehead> What could it be?
[19:38] <ashams> compiz
[19:39] <ashams> bug 730495 is fixed, we should ask reporter if it still exists
[19:39] <Cheesehead> Commets #5 and #6 on that blocking bug seem related to this problem
[19:40] <Cheesehead> Agreed that asking the submitter if it's still an issue is the way to go.
[19:41] <Cheesehead> But why didn't the last triager (Martin Wildam) do that?
[19:42] <Cheesehead> Any ideas on why our bug was left hanging?
[19:43] <crog> as i read the description, and see the screenshot - i think it's not a bug
[19:43] <Cheesehead> Also, take a look at the original report date
[19:44] <Cheesehead> crog: What do you think it is?
[19:44] <crog> Cheesehead: ??  user expectation?
[19:45] <crog> re: reported dates 08/intrepid... "same behavior in natty 2011"
[19:46] <Cheesehead> In Ubuntu, behavior that is clearly wrong or unexpected can be safely considered a bug.
[19:46] <Cheesehead> The developer didn't intend for the evince window to be unusably small
[19:48] <ashams> mwildam is not a bug triager, probably he didn't know what to do
[19:48] <crog> I'm still not seeing it - even zooming in on the screenshot - where is the "small unreadable" evince?
[19:48] <Cheesehead> ashams: Good spot! He was probably new, and untrained.
[19:49] <Cheesehead> ashams: Lots of new, untrained people hanging around, and he perhaps didn't ask for advice in #ubuntu-bugs
[19:49] <crog> agree w/ ashams
[19:50] <ashams> I just checked his lp profile, https://launchpad.net/~mwildam
[19:50] <ashams> he's not amember of bugsquad
[19:50] <ashams> :P
[19:50] <ashams> may be GreaseMonkey scripts can help on this
[19:50] <Cheesehead> When you run across somebody like this, interested but unskilled...
[19:51] <Cheesehead> we have all been in that position, too.
[19:51] <Cheesehead> And we will see many more as Ubuntu grows
[19:51] <ashams> yeah, just had to
[19:51] <Cheesehead> What can we do about this bug?
[19:52] <ashams> https://launchpad.net/launchpad-gm-scripts does the job every time i need to know some about reporters/commenters
[19:52] <Cheesehead> Yes it does!
[19:52] <Cheesehead> You can also just click on their name.
[19:53] <ashams> Cheesehead: If we're sure it's a dup of bug 730495, let's just mark it
[19:53] <Cheesehead> It may not be a dupe.
[19:53] <Cheesehead> Or, rather, I am not skilled enough to say that it's a dupe.
[19:53] <ashams> so...
[19:54] <Cheesehead> We could ask in #ubuntu-bugs if they think the two are dupes
[19:54] <ashams> nice idea, let's do it
[19:54] <ashams> ok?
[19:54] <Cheesehead> ashams: Go for it!
[19:55] <Cheesehead> ..
[19:55] <Cheesehead> Whoa! Look at the time!
[19:55] <Cheesehead> Has everyone had a good time?
[19:55] <Cheesehead> Learned anything?
[19:55] <crog> much! - thanks Cheesehead
[19:56] <ashams> MUCH
[19:56] <Cheesehead> crog: What do you think of bugs now?
[19:56] <Cheesehead> I hope you got something out of it.
[19:56] <ashams> Cheesehead: Thank you very nuch :D
[19:56] <crog> yes indeed
[19:56] <Cheesehead> ashams: Thanks for coming by and contributing so much!
[19:57] <ashams> Cheesehead: :D
[19:57] <ashams> crog: :D
[19:57] <Cheesehead> crog: Thanks for SIX HOURS of your holiday weekend!
[19:57] <crog> 5 1/2
[19:57] <crog> and as you say - no work tomorrow!!!
[19:57] <ashams> thanks all
[19:58] <Cheesehead> Thanks so much for a successful bug jam!
[19:58] <Cheesehead> #endevent!
[19:58]  * Cheesehead heads out to the atrium for a drink
[19:59] <ashams> Cheesehead: go to #ubuntu-bugs
[20:01] <Cheesehead> ashams: I saw
[20:02] <Cheesehead> I'll contact the previous triager, and ask the original submitter if it's still an issue.
[20:03] <ashams> Cheesehead: correct step
[20:03] <ashams> good luck
[20:04] <Cheesehead> You saw that the #ubuntu-bugs people are friendly and helpful.
[20:04] <Cheesehead> A great resource when you get stuck!
[20:06] <Cheesehead> komputes, trinkono, crog, ashams, EgyParadox, yotux: Thanks for coming by, contributing, and making this jam a success!
[20:06] <komputes> woohoo \0/
[20:06] <ashams> Cheesehead: thanks to you
[20:07] <crog> yeah - thanks a bunch
[20:10] <EgyParadox> thanks alot :D
[20:11] <EgyParadox> when will the ubj end?
[20:13] <ashams> It have just ended
[20:14] <EgyParadox> globally?
[20:18] <Cheesehead> Philospohy: Does anything ever truly end?
[20:19] <Cheesehead> (not including hardware warranties, which really do end)
[20:24] <EgyParadox> I mean
[20:24] <crog> ubj event site says Sept 2-4
[20:25] <crog> The WI loco event was today from 12-3pm (CST).
[20:25] <EgyParadox> The Ubuntu Global Jam is an incredible opportunity for the Ubuntu community to unite together around the weekend of 2 - 4 September 2011
[20:25] <EgyParadox> yeah
[20:25] <EgyParadox> oh ok
[20:25] <crog> I think EgyParadox  is asking if we're done in our channel... is there someplace else he can help out?
[20:25] <crog> Since the weekend isn't over yet...
[20:26] <crog> I don't know the answer...
[20:26] <crog> or maybe that's not what you were asking.
[20:26] <ashams> EgyParadox: In Egypt, we still have today, sept 4th, to do it again ;)
[20:27] <ashams> EgyParadox: 1 1/2 hrs left
[20:34] <Cheesehead> Hey, you don't need me. You guys did all the work anyway!
[20:36] <trinikrono>   thanks for having us :D
[20:36]  * Cheesehead goes to start preparing dinner for the family
[20:36] <trinikrono> not bread and cheese i hope
[20:37] <Cheesehead> September, so the in-deason foods are grilled corn and hamburgers.
[20:37] <Cheesehead> /deason/season
[20:40] <ashams> Cheesehead: Bon a Petit
[20:45] <ashams> bye guys, I had a real great time with you :D
[20:46] <ashams> Thanks for the gr8 session
[21:00] <EgyParadox> Cheesehead: Do you manage any projects on launchpad?
[21:01] <Cheesehead> EgyParadox: I do not. Why?
[21:01] <EgyParadox> just asking
[21:02] <Cheesehead> I spend quite a bit of time over at Brainstorm...
[21:02] <EgyParadox> brainstorm?
[21:03] <Cheesehead> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com
[21:03] <Cheesehead> The I-have-an-idea-and-don't-know-what-to-do-about-it website.
[21:07] <EgyParadox> I see
[21:10] <EgyParadox> oh that portal for suggestions/ideas
[21:10] <Cheesehead> That's the one.