[02:11] ping Cheesehead [02:17] bigbash: pong [02:18] I was just going to leave a message for you [02:18] I have a favor to ask please [02:19] I am being summoned by my family to a baptism tomorrow and most likely won't' be back in time for the bug jam :( Do you think you might be able to be the facilitator/mentor? [02:19] Consider it done. [02:19] I'm not very happy I have to go, I'm still waiting to power to come back on at work so we can get our servers back up [02:20] I appreciate it :) [02:20] Are you asking for a just-in-case? Or do think it's pretty realistic you will be late/absent? [02:20] pretty realistic [02:20] No problem. [02:21] I really appreciate it [02:21] Family time is more important than anonymous internet geeks... [02:21] ...or so my spouse keeps telling me. [02:21] I believe her. [02:21] ha, that's what my wife and parents said [02:22] We can geek out on IRC anytime. [02:22] Family time is rarer and wonderful. [02:22] well I'll be reading the logs when I get back so I can learn from the master on how to facilitate a bug jam [02:23] You'll need to watch a *real* master at work, then. I'm just the guy show showed up and lost the coin toss. [02:23] /show/who [02:24] And who apparently cannot spell [02:24] I love the analogy [02:24] If you saw the Brainstorm Jam, you'll see the participants did all the real work [02:25] Thanks again, I'm going to head to bed, up early to check on the power situation for work before I get ready and head down to Milwaukee [02:25] G'night [02:25] I started reading the logs, but I didn't finish had to go to inlaws [02:25] night everyone === bigbash is now known as bigbash_away [12:54] Event Reminder: Wisconsin LoCo is running an IRC Bug Jam, Sunday 1700 UTC (four hours from now), in this channel. Great training opportunity for people new to bugs. If you have a favorite bug, bring it along! [14:08] Test: Bug 828346 [14:08] Launchpad bug 828346 in Ubuntu "unable to use volume control and brightness control" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/828346 [14:08] heh heh heh [15:07] bug jam? [15:08] i think i am 2 hours early lol [15:18] trinikrono: Indeed, 1:42 from now [15:44] hope you have a good turnout and squash some bugs [16:01] lostson: Thanks [16:33] Event Reminder: Bug Jam in this channel in 0:27 [16:46] Cheesehead: Thanks, are we going to use two channels or just one like yesterday [16:48] yotux: Let's start with one, and spread out as-needed [16:48] Cheesehead: okay [16:50] We'll need to see how many new-to-bugs participants we have, and how many experienced-jump-right-in folks [16:52] Cheesehead: I understand it was fun yesterday, bug are a little more scary to mean. I am printing the triage guide at the moment to go over again [16:52] sorry I can't seem to type this morning bugs are scary to me [16:53] That's what makes the group-format nice. Nobody needs to know everything, and there's time to look stuff up [16:53] ...and use the bathroom and eat lunch, etc [16:54] yotux: Hi, I never heared about such guide "the triage guide" [16:54] ashams: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage [16:55] You don't know about it until somebody tells you. [16:55] ashams: as cheeshead said https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage/ [16:55] did the ugj start? [16:55] Not really, we're all just eager! [16:55] * Cheesehead goes to #ubuntu-bugs to give the 5-minute warning [16:56] Cheesehead: thanx, I assumed they finally made a consistent PDF :D [16:56] ashams: it fits nicely into 10 pgs [16:56] I used lib office to paste and print [16:57] The types of bugs change over time, so it's a dynamic guide. [16:57] A few years ago, there were a lot more X and pulseaudio and printing bugs [16:58] i just got hggh to edit it [16:59] so it has a new piece in the section invaliditing [16:59] trinikrono: Great! That's changed since I last invalidated a bug...I learn more about bugs each time I touch one. [17:00] .. [17:00] Hello, everyone here for the Wisconsin Bug Jam. [17:00] Activity in this channel is logged - you can get the logs at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/04/%23ubuntu-us-wi [17:00] All abilities are welcome, no experience necessary! [17:00] .. [17:00] Let's see how many participants we have here. Could everyone active in this channel please give a response? [17:00] +1 [17:00] Here +2 [17:01] * Cheesehead laughs [17:01] I know we have more than that. Lag, perhaps. [17:01] Everybody else, feel free to jump in! [17:01] o/ [17:01] There are a few goals here today: [17:01] 1) Meet new people and have fun [17:01] 2) If you brought a bug along, work it together [17:01] 3) Learn how to Triage some of the wide variety of bugs [17:01] 4) If you're new to bugs, learn the life cycle of bugs, the tools, and where to begin [17:02] You *don't* need to be a bug guru already! The great thing about working together is that everybody learns [17:02] .. [17:02] SETTING UP [17:02] A couple questions to gauge the expertise level in the room - feel free to throw out answers: [17:02] Question: Did anybody bring a favorite bug that they want to work? [17:02] Question: Does anybody here consider themselves pretty experienced with any kind of bugs? [17:02] Question: Is anybody here interested in any particular kind of bug? [17:03] i just applied to bug control [17:03] o.o [17:03] didn't bring a bug, new / some apport experience, open minded [17:04] * trinikrono goes looking for a bug [17:05] ashams: How much bug experience do you want to have? [17:05] Cheesehead: a lot [17:05] All right! I can just go sleep on the couch then! [17:06] Does anyone want to see the text on (simplified) bug-life-cycle? [17:06] Does anyone not know what a Launchpad Account is? [17:07] Everyone ready to jump in the pool? (Shallow end first) [17:07] Cheesehead: Have a nice dreams :D [17:08] I know what a lauchpad account is [17:08] go ahead [17:08] Let's start with an easy one: Bug 828346 [17:08] Launchpad bug 828346 in Ubuntu "unable to use volume control and brightness control" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/828346 [17:08] Jump in and share your thoughts. [17:08] ok [17:09] We'll reach a consensus before acting [17:09] * trinikrono raises hand [17:09] trinikrono: go ahead anytime [17:09] no apport info! [17:09] Is it a crash? [17:09] (apport usually only generates a report during a crash) [17:10] seems the package is wrong [17:10] yotux: Good eyes! [17:10] It indeed lacks a package! [17:10] What else? [17:10] lacks files [17:10] also the doc bar is not directly controlled by nvidia package. [17:11] yotux: Great spotting! [17:11] what package did the user install? [17:11] Perhaps we have an inexperienced reporter? [17:11] I would ask what package was installed [17:11] What package would an inexperienced user claim 'recommends' a proprietary video driver? [17:12] I would assume this [17:12] but we can't send assumptions to devs / upstream [17:12] jockey? [17:12] trinikrono: Yes! [17:13] I would says ask for me info. wait a while and then possible invalid [17:13] Possible. [17:13] Let's explore Jockey for a second. [17:13] Imagine you are the user. [17:14] Jockey tells you to install NVIDAI proprietary [17:14] You restart, and video is great... [17:14] But now your FN-hotkeys stop working [17:14] Could this be what the user is trying to say? [17:15] It could be, the screen shot makes it look like even gui stopped working [17:15] trinikrono, ashams: What do you think? [17:16] i think [17:16] it sounds the same [17:16] but wont the nvidia package be at fault [17:16] and not jockey? [17:16] Cheesehead: don't know, maybe Xorg needs reconfig? [17:17] trinikrono: Excellent point! [17:17] How can we help the user narrow the possible problems? [17:17] try the nouveo driver :D [17:18] Let's try something else - somebody try a quick Google search for the keywords. See if any similar complaints pop up. [17:19] SOmebody else, try searching the Launchpad bugs, see if this might be a duplicate of an already-reported issue [17:19] you mean to search for similar bugs [17:19] trinikrono: Correct! [17:19] Cheesehead: Why did he think that changing system name would help? [17:20] yes i wondered about that also [17:20] ashams: People do all kinds of strange stuff. [17:20] * trinikrono needs to goto the grocery for 20mins brb sorry! [17:20] trinikrono: See you back soon! [17:21] When I have a problem, I do strange stuff, too. [17:21] Then, later, I wonder - why did I do that? [17:21] Another great place to check is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses [17:22] to see if any similar class of bugs already has a prepared response [17:23] I have something close bug 128452 [17:23] Launchpad bug 128452 in gnome-power-manager (Ubuntu) "brightness control usability issues." [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/128452 [17:25] * Cheesehead is reading it... [17:26] Cheesehead: found a lot on lp, but none of them the same as ours [17:27] Okay, so seems like nothing close enough to be considered a duplicate yet. [17:27] What's your impression - is this really a bug? Or is it a support request? [17:28] I would lean toward support [17:28] Support reques [17:28] request* [17:28] is it in acpi pkg? [17:28] Could it be a bug in the NVIDIA driver? [17:28] Or int he way the kernel uses the driver? [17:28] Nvidia works fine [17:29] when the Nvidia got installed it changed some config [17:29] maybe in xorg or acpi I assume! [17:29] So perhaps he should revert to the open driver and see if the issue goes away? [17:29] ashams: Excellent point! [17:29] agree [17:30] let's order him to uninstall Nvidia then install open driver [17:31] * ashams brb after 10 mins, sorry [17:31] ashams: See you back in 10 [17:31] ! [17:31] (oh, no, everybody's leaving!) [17:32] * Cheesehead laughs [17:32] Sorry I'm still here [17:32] Well, what do you think we ought to do with the poor fellow? [17:33] I would say he need to revert to open source driver [17:33] See if this help out [17:33] I also noticed he install a custom doc bar on the button [17:33] I missed that! [17:33] Other software could be effecting configs. Start with open source driver [17:34] https://launchpadlibrarian.net/77473344/Screenshot-3.png [17:34] Volume doesn't appear disabled just muted [17:34] He heh. A doc bar that undoes all the Unity design work... [17:34] hi, komputes! [17:35] hi Cheesehead [17:35] we were just admiring bug 828346 [17:35] Launchpad bug 828346 in Ubuntu "unable to use volume control and brightness control" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/828346 [17:36] yotux: Do you think it's possible that one of tose other cusomizations may be trapping the FN-keys? [17:36] Cheesehead: I not sure how the dock bar works [17:36] Cheesehead: looking... [17:36] Cheesehead: it could change the way gnome interacts [17:37] Nor I. If it were my system, I would revert to working, and install one-at-a-time untill it breaks... [17:37] A few iterations in different order until I caould isolate the culprit [17:37] Cheesehead: I would agree [17:38] ...assuming that installing something really is the culprit [17:39] Cheesehead: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CairoDock [17:39] looks like this is the doc bar he installed [17:40] Cheesehead: would be useful to get the hardware info. assign to linux and ask for apprt-collect bugnumber [17:40] komputes: Is there a clue that this is a kernel issue? [17:41] Cheesehead: I was saying that just to get the hardware info, in fact these should be two seperate bugs AFAICT [17:42] komputes: Whew. I questioned my grip on reality there for a moment! [17:43] so we need more info to proceed [17:43] I would say leave user a comment for more info, possible even give instruction on how to get more info [17:44] yotux: Agreed. I always try to hand-hold the user along the next step if more info is needed. [17:44] If the user is new to the process (and who han;t been?), then how are they supposed to knw? [17:45] I myself am not sure what commands to tell him to run [17:45] I use apport to report most / all of my bugs [17:46] it's highly likely this is hardware specific [17:46] Well, for the hardware data collection, I suppose 'apport-collect 828346' [17:47] komputes: Do you think it's worthwhile for the user to check for an install conflict? The NVIDIA driver? Cairo-dock? [17:48] ask for apport info, mark incomplete. [17:48] and subscribe for the follow-up [17:48] Cheesehead: hey there [17:48] crog: Welcome! [17:48] crog: Just arrived? Or been following? [17:48] just arrived, but read everything up to now... [17:49] I would check (if the user has many customizations) to see if it's reproducable in a neutreal testing environment such as a USB installation or LiveCD (latter causing issues if testing nvidia binary) [17:50] So apport info, check for reproducability, mark incomplete, assign to Linux, subscribe for follow-up? [17:50] ...advise submitter to check for reproducability... [17:50] Cheesehead: agree [17:51] newbie question: Does apport help if there wasn't a crash? [17:51] Apport can be run manually [17:51] It helps in some situations other than crashes [17:51] Like gathering hardware info [17:52] Ready for the next one? [17:52] got it - we need to ask the submitter to run it on his machine, and we'll get config details.... [17:52] .. [17:52] Next: Bug 831647 [17:52] Launchpad bug 831647 in Ubuntu "Unable to change language from System settings" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/831647 [17:53] This seems like a pretty easy one at first glance. [17:54] Cheesehead: Hi again, Ready for the next one [17:55] Welcome back! We're admiring Bug 831647 [17:55] Launchpad bug 831647 in Ubuntu "Unable to change language from System settings" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/831647 [17:55] 3rd posted text file: couple local settings are set to gl_ES, but LANG still shows en_US. [17:56] Is next step to try an reproduce? (or possibly some searching first?) [17:57] first set would be to reproduce [17:57] I think that he's not using the right way, so let's advice him first [17:57] also first sentence says: "trying to set language, and havn't found a proper way" [17:57] So probably look for documentatoin... [17:58] also this is alpha distro so how important is this [17:58] suggest doc, but doc may not be done yet if doc team hasn't gotten to it [17:58] crog: I think you found a vital piece of evidence in that text file. [17:59] Many locale settings were changed, but the system language was still en_us, not gl_es [17:59] I now see that [17:59] regarding docs - I suspect something like "how to change your language" doesn't really change much from version to version [18:00] community docs: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingLanguages [18:01] I don't see the language-support-gl package in his list of installed packages [18:01] This says.... this language will be used for newlyl created users, but not for your future sessions. [18:01] To change for your next session, you need to change it from your login screen. [18:02] I have 11.10 in a virtual machine. Is it worth taking the time to follow these steps and see if there are any problems? [18:02] the names have changed and the structure has changed also [18:03] Or should we just point the user to this wiki page? [18:03] I would say refer to wiki [18:03] its easy to get to the right place from there [18:03] system settings -> lang. support [18:03] This is the new unity was [18:04] Launchpad has a feature to convert support requests into Launchpad Answers [18:04] was = way sorry [18:04] I read something about that [18:04] Right-hand-column: Convert to a question [18:04] Cheesehead: Yeah - seems like that's the way to go.. [18:05] I agree [18:05] So, the consensus is convert to a Launchpad Question, and the answer explains and points to the wiki? [18:06] Cheesehead: since the wikik direction are from back in 2009 do we also need to make a doc request to update? [18:06] Cheesehead: wait [18:06] we need to ask him to use the right way before converting to a request [18:06] we're not sure if it's abug of not [18:06] yotux: Most wiki updates are user-created. So you and I can do that. [18:07] ashams: That's an excellent point! [18:07] before updating wiki, I'd verify the steps, and try out another language for a session or two. [18:07] crog: Definitely! [18:08] crog: gr8 [18:08] So the consensus is to: [18:08] 1) Ask the user to try it the right way - confirm if it's a bug or not [18:08] 2) If it's not a bug, convert to a question [18:09] 3) Spend a bit of time updating the Wiki (submitter may want to help?) [18:09] * ashams agrees [18:09] 4) Subscribe to the bug for follow-up, of course [18:10] Any final comments on this bug? [18:11] .. [18:11] nope - sounds good [18:11] nope, sounds very good [18:11] Here's one I had a second look at: Bug 86896 [18:11] Launchpad bug 86896 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt's daily cron job locks the apt lists against package managers" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/86896 [18:12] Before trying to figure out the problem... [18:12] ...see if there is anything strange going on. [18:13] submitter changed to confirmed... [18:13] crog: Yes indeed. Confirmiong your own bug is a big no-no [18:14] other than that - this is for Jaunty - need to have him try on a current version [18:15] I havne't had a chance to review the Triage guide in full, but I'd look for a way to mark it invalid [18:15] If it's a problem, it can be resubmitted. [18:15] Yeah, it's 4 years old. [18:16] But, um...what's the problem? [18:16] well, since you said not to look at that yet... (jk) [18:16] Why would apt-get hang, bad connection, broken packages, a crash? [18:17] might it be waiting for a lock as well? [18:17] ahhh - any in his post marked "repeating" [18:18] His apt is looking for a feisty file, and not finding it. [18:18] crog: AWESOME spotting! [18:18] Is this really a bug at all? [18:19] small chance it could be, but most likely a confirguration issue [18:19] man... irc lets through a whole lot more typos and mispellings than email. [18:20] crog: Sure does. [18:20] crog: Excellent [18:20] It is a bug [18:21] I don't know that it's a bug [18:21] because apt isn't updated by system update [18:21] Is this issue (bug or misconfiguration) going to be reproducable? [18:22] I think it's not a misconfig, because it was made auto [18:22] it's logging the reason [18:22] ashams: do we know that? [18:22] crog: Not sure :P [18:23] Cheesehead: not on those versions [18:23] Shouldn't /var/lib/apt/lists be cleaned during a release-upgrade? [18:23] * ashams has no idea [18:24] Cheesehead: perhaps... Again, it maybe something that has already been fixed. [18:24] may also be that apt was fine, and there was a power outage when he upgraded from Feisty to Jaunty [18:25] Or some other non-critical error that prevented the cleaning [18:25] Someone with the expertise could re-read through the install scripts to see whether such a cleanup step exists [18:25] to confirm whether it's a bug. [18:26] brb... [18:26] Since it's 4 years old, should we check with the submitter to see if it's still a issue? [18:27] Cheesehead: yep [18:28] A response like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses#Old_untouched_bugs ? [18:28] and mark incomplete, and subscribe to the bug for follow-up? [18:28] Cheesehead: I hate those tedious responses [18:29] ashams: They do have their place. [18:29] Cheesehead: copy-n-paste reponses and reporters will fly away ;) [18:30] It's nice to know that the pre-written response is polite, appropriate for the situation, and covers most use cases. You can always personalize it more. [18:30] Perhaps "I've been looking this over, and I noticed that... and then a second paragraph incorparating the pre-written response." [18:31] ashams: Great point - sometimes the pre-written response is mistaken nor not-caring. [18:31] /nor/for [18:32] I have seen copy-n-paste responses used inappropriately, too. [18:32] Cheesehead: I usually love to refine them before replying [18:32] Cheesehead: let's focus on triage :D [18:32] Everyone having fun? [18:33] Anyone learning anything? [18:33] yep [18:33] yep [18:33] yep, a lot [18:33] How about Next: Bug 340417 [18:33] Launchpad bug 340417 in cron (Ubuntu) "cron crashed with SIGSEGV in __kernel_vsyscall()" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/340417 [18:33] yeah [18:34] Here you see apport in action on a crash. [18:35] bad description:( [18:35] ashams: What's bad about it? [18:36] Cheesehead: 1 line description, strange [18:36] ashams: It can be hard to describe what's important, especially if you are too close ot the problem [18:36] /ot/to [18:37] * ashams convinced [18:37] In this case, when you get to the comments, you can see a triager has already been here. [18:38] I think jdstrand has already asked the important questions [18:38] yeah, and no response since that [18:38] based on the stacktrace - looks like it's mostly system calls [18:38] Could be cron [18:38] Could be kernel [18:39] could be hard-ware dependant [18:39] Question: When a triager asks a question, what change should you make to the bug to indicate that a reply is expected? [18:39] It says this is in a virtual machine - so could be that [18:39] if HW-dependent, itmight be the VM [18:39] crog: bingo [18:40] Anyone know how to mark a bug? [18:40] Cheesehead: Change status to Incomplete... [18:40] crog: ding ding ding! [18:41] so for this one, we probbaly just do that and move on. [18:41] That's right. So jdstrand didn't mark the bug Incomplete. [18:42] What can we do about it? [18:42] (Triage is all about people, and people make mistakes all the time. Just look at my spelling!) [18:43] I think we should just mark the bug and go on... [18:43] YES [18:43] we could (maybe should) send jdstrand an email [18:44] crog: why, he already did his job [18:44] Or, perhaps, jump into #ubuntu-bugs, and see if he's there? [18:44] I probably wouldn't [18:44] may be we need to remind the reporter [18:44] because not everyone likes to see their errors pointed out. [18:44] But... if we don't let them know, they may continue missing this important step. [18:44] 9.04 is almost at EOL [18:45] "jdstrand: On bug 340417, is it okay if I mark the bug Incomplete?" [18:45] Launchpad bug 340417 in cron (Ubuntu) "cron crashed with SIGSEGV in __kernel_vsyscall()" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/340417 [18:45] * trinikrono back :D [18:45] welcome back! [18:45] I generally recommend checking with a previous triager before trying to redo their work [18:46] We have all been in a situation where two teachers try to teach the same thing... [18:46] Cheesehead: Yes, Jamie is in that channel now - it's a good idea! [18:46] and step all over each other. [18:47] Or a restaurant or store where two people interfere with each other and give you (the customer) a bad experience [18:47] and we have all had some work partner who made *more* work for us instead of less [18:48] I predict 95% chance that jdstrand doesn;t remember this bug and has not problem with us going ahead and marking it incomplete... [18:48] Cheesehead: a big factor is if you know the person... [18:48] But in the Ubuntu community it's still polite to ask and check first [18:49] if youre on the same page, it's probably find to just go ahead. [18:49] crog: Well, now you'll know him. [18:49] re: asking first - yes, great idea [18:49] doh! [18:50] heh heh. I just left a message fro crog in #ubuntu-bugs [18:50] lol [18:50] so what are we working on now [18:50] i see alot went on [18:50] We're wrapping up 340417 [18:50] we're ready for another one, right? [18:50] Is the consesnsus to check with jdstrand, then invalidate the bug? [18:50] /invalidate/inccomplete [18:51] righto [18:51] it's just a mistake, what can it be else? [18:51] jdstrand: made a simple mistake, no more, I assume [18:51] Agreed, I'm sure it's a mistake. But it's polite to ask. [18:52]