[01:05] <ScottL> oh hi, TheMuso i missed your reply
[01:06] <ScottL> astraljava, but shnatsel was saying that recommends will be required for ubiquity for the live dvd
[01:06] <ScottL> so how will the packages behave if we change?
[01:06] <TheMuso> ScottL: Re the recommends/depends stuff its rather subjective as to how people think it should behave when you remove packages,.
[01:06] <ScottL> will they install install the same and the ISO's build the same?
[01:07] <TheMuso> ScottL: Re live install only copies files, and removes installer related packages afterwards.
[01:08] <ScottL> i suppose i am less of a purist on package behavior and more about can we accomplish our goals and not confuse users
[01:09] <ScottL> i think the current situation confuses users with removing of meta packages and fearing it will remove all the applications in the meta
[01:11] <ScottL> astraljava, can you explain your comment about -desktop fulfilling after removal?
[01:12] <ScottL> perhaps i don't have a good understanding of the difference between depends and recommends
[01:14] <TheMuso> ScottL: Depends means that a package directly depends on another package in order to function. Recommends means that the package is not directly required, but is a nice addition to the package being installed.
[01:14] <TheMuso> In the case of metapackages, depends means that if you remove the metapackage or one of its direct dependnecies, the metapackage is removed. If a package is recommended, the recommended package is installed, but can be removed later without removing the metapackage.
[01:20] <TheMuso> scott-upstairs: Not sure if you got my recent posts to the channel.
[01:20] <scott-upstairs> TheMuso, i'll run back down and look quick like
[01:20] <TheMuso> heh ok
 ScottL: Depends means that a package directly depends on another package in order to function. Recommends means that the package is not directly required, but is a nice addition to the package being installed.
 In the case of metapackages, depends means that if you remove the metapackage or one of its direct dependnecies, the metapackage is removed. If a package is recommended, the recommended package is installed, but can be removed later without removing the metapackage.
[01:22] <scott-upstairs> i'm slow sometimes
[01:23] <scott-upstairs> a meta package really is a container that "depends" on other packages, a nice way to bunch things together....like a task perhaps
[01:23] <TheMuso> Yep
[01:23] <scott-upstairs> take ubuntustudio-audio (old meta)....
[01:23] <scott-upstairs> if i remove ardour, what happens?
[01:24] <scott-upstairs> it removed the meta, right?
[01:24] <scott-upstairs> but it leaves the other "depends"? (e.g. jack, hydrogen et al)
[01:26] <scott-upstairs> using CLI i tried to remove ardour and it only wanted to remove ardour, not the meta nor any other packages
[01:26] <TheMuso> Right.
[01:27] <TheMuso> In the seed files, a package is recommends if it has brackets around it.
[01:27]  * scott-upstairs is looking up a few things in synaptic for the -generation (new meta) package
[01:27] <scott-upstairs> oh, i thought that the brackets meant it was included but not installed
[01:27] <TheMuso> No.
[01:28] <TheMuso> To include but not install is to include in the ship seed file.
[01:28] <scott-upstairs> right, okay
[01:28] <scott-upstairs> pigdin is in the ship file i believe
[01:28] <scott-upstairs> along some other packages
[01:28] <scott-upstairs> synaptic shows that the -generation meta does depend on ardour
[01:29] <scott-upstairs> how would the behavior just described be different if we switched to "recommends" instead of "depends"
[01:29] <scott-upstairs> ?
[01:30] <scott-upstairs> oh, i just realized also that i don't currently have the -generation meta installed :/
[01:30] <scott-upstairs> i might have run 'apt-get autoremove' before to purge some kernel packages
[01:30] <scott-upstairs> so when i tried to remove ardour it might have tried to pull the -generation meta if it was installed
[01:32] <scott-upstairs> and perhaps this is a preferred behavior, that when one part of the meta is removed that it would be preferred that the meta itself is removed, i suppose since it is "incomplete"?
[01:32] <scott-upstairs> TheMuso, ^^^
[01:33] <scott-upstairs> which ties in with your comment about the live install removing the installing files (i.e. meta's)
[01:33] <TheMuso> scott-upstairs: So if we change to recommends, the following would happen. The meta will get installed, pulling in the recommended packages, as installing recommends is enabled by default. If a user wants to remove one or more of those packages, they can do so, and the entire meta will not be removed.
[01:33] <scott-upstairs> or maybe not, because i think i can obviously remove the meta currently (even with "depends") without pulling the packages in the meta
[01:35] <scott-upstairs> TheMuso, and the leaving of the meta package when one or more packages is removed is considered undesirable or inelegant ?
[01:36] <TheMuso> No I don't think it is.
[01:41] <scott-upstairs> sorry was helping son with wii star wars
[01:42] <scott-upstairs> okay i think i am beginning to understand some of this
[01:46] <scott-upstairs> which i think i can understand astraljava 's comments better about it being about the experience...why have the -desktop meta installed if one package is removed?  you are not experiencing the intended result of the -desktop meta
[01:46] <scott-upstairs> although i think the user experience will remain the same with the exception of the meta package being removed, no?
[01:47] <scott-upstairs> OTOH, while it may confuse the user that the meta is being removed (and fearing that ALL the packages are removed), the user may equally be confused when the meta is still installed by isn't seeing expected behavior because he/she removed a package
[01:47] <scott-upstairs> s/by/but
[01:48] <scott-upstairs> i think i will need some time to think about this more and consider it against moving to a live medium
[01:52] <TheMuso> ok
[02:04] <TheMuso> Does UI freeze include universe non-seeded packages?Just noticed that ubuntustudio ships pavucontrol...
[02:04] <TheMuso> ah crap
[02:04] <TheMuso> Just noticed that ubuntustudio ships pavucontrol...
[02:05] <TheMuso> Was starting to write a question for another channel but forgot to remove it.
[02:20] <scott-upstairs> TheMuso, yes i believe we currently do, but we did remove one recently i believe also
[02:21] <scott-upstairs> TheMuso, is shipping pavucontrol problematic?
[02:22] <TheMuso> No
[02:22] <TheMuso> I am just surprised that studio ships it.
[02:23] <micahg> TheMuso: xubuntu considered shipping it, but I think audio started working again
[02:23] <TheMuso> heh right.
[02:23] <TheMuso> Xubuntu doesn't ship pulse afaik.
[02:23] <ScottL> since we use pulse still by default we decided to keep it because it is handy to adjust some settings
[02:23] <ScottL> micahg, do you really remove pulse?
[02:24] <ScottL> i would like for studio to do the same actually
[02:24] <micahg> TheMuso: no, we ship pulse
[02:24] <ScottL> :(
[02:24] <TheMuso> micahg: oh ok didn't know that.
[02:24] <micahg> TheMuso: so does kubuntu
[02:24] <TheMuso> ScottL: Its harder to remove pulse when many GNOME bits depend on it heavily.
[02:24] <TheMuso> micahg: I knew kubuntu did.
[02:24] <ScottL> micahg, isn't the xfce4-mixer being reworked though
[02:24] <TheMuso> I just thought xfce/xubuntu didn't use any pieces that rely on pulse.
[02:24] <micahg> ScottL: it controls pulse fine for me
[02:25] <ScottL> TheMuso, yes, that was mentioned earlier
[02:25] <ScottL> TheMuso, did you expect another package to control audio for studio in lieu of pavucontrol?
[02:26] <TheMuso> ScottL: Well not having looked at your seeds, I don't know.
[02:26] <ScottL> i ask because perhaps i an unaware of a package
[02:26] <micahg> TheMuso: we ship speech-dispatcher
[02:27] <TheMuso> micahg: speech-dispatcher doesn't rely on pulse to function. If you want me to break the audio drivers up a bit more, I can certainly do that for future releases.
[02:27] <micahg> TheMuso: do you want less things shipping pulse?
[02:28] <TheMuso> micahg: No, but I don't want to force pulse on derivatives if they don't want it.
[02:28] <TheMuso> Kubuntu worked fine for a while without it, even though Ubuntu was shipping it.
[02:28] <micahg> TheMuso: ok, we're fine with it ATM, will keep in mind though in case it comes up later
[02:29] <TheMuso> Ok.
[03:02] <ScottL> micahg, do you remember which package xubuntu uses to set the xsession to xfce?
[03:11] <micahg> ScottL: should be xubuntu-default-settings
[06:16] <astraljava> Hmmm... why are we pulling in gnome-screensaver in ubuntustudio-screensaver?
[06:16] <astraljava> Ahh...
[06:17] <astraljava> So discussion; do we want that, or can we just use xscreensaver?
[08:19] <jussi> Does anyone actually use screensavers anymore? apart from "blank screen"?
[09:11] <astraljava> doesn't matter, that's the app that provides the blank screen anyway.
[11:54] <ScottL> astraljava, i'd rather eliminate gnome-screensaver
[11:56] <ScottL> i can see where cory was saying a lot of xubuntu's settings are in xml files
[11:57] <ScottL> last night i looked through xubuntu-default-settings and saw xml files for the panel and other things, looks fairly straight forward if tedious
[12:17] <astraljava> ScottL: Right. So we just need to see now how we can set those with our session.
[12:46] <ScottL> astraljava, i had already put some code into ubuntustudio-default-session (i think) to set the session last cycle
[12:46] <ScottL> i put code somewhere :P   just not sure it was ubuntustudio-default-setting
[12:47] <ScottL> astraljava, sorry, was answering what i _thought_ you said...been digging into stuff this morning and i'm a little off
[12:48] <ScottL> astraljava, if our goal is to completely replicate our current settings, then this shouldn't be to hard, just tedious because it will be a bunch of manual editing of config files
[12:49] <ScottL> looking at xfce-look there are some really sexy themes already existing, maybe we should to do like shnatsel suggested and not spend our time making a theme but find one that we like
[12:49] <ScottL> or even one that is closer
[13:02] <falktx> hm, I think xfce can use gtk2 themes
[13:22] <ScottL> i saw many places where they were talking about editing gtk2 files so that certainly makes sense
[13:22] <ScottL> good afternoon (?) falktx
[13:22] <ScottL> only 8:22 here :)
[13:22] <falktx> hey
[13:22] <falktx> 2:22 pm here
[13:22] <ScottL> in da morning
[13:22] <ScottL> i think this is cool!
[13:22]  * falktx just finished eating a big mac, hm...
[13:23] <ScottL> there is some serious hacking going on these days for ubuntu studio :)
[13:23] <ScottL> i have head cory and per.sia and the.muso talk about the old days when studio first started and i imagine it was like this
[13:23] <ScottL> hi shnatsel 
[13:23] <shnatsel> hi ScottL 
[13:24] <ScottL> astraljava, when i said i was "a little off" it's because i'm trying to figure out a solo i did
[13:25] <shnatsel> ScottL: we gotta replace multi-instrument recording in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows with Jokosher
[13:25] <ScottL> i'm getting really close to finishing this song
[13:25] <ScottL> shnatsel, lol
[13:25] <shnatsel> bad wording, sorry
[13:25] <ScottL> it's one of these solos that i improvised and it turned out really good except the last part
[13:26]  * shnatsel googles for ScottL's songs
[13:26] <ScottL> shnatsel, i thought you were making a joke to replace ardour with jokosher
[13:26] <ScottL> the last part of the solo was very fast but i flubbed many of the notes and i've spent a while trying to figure it out again
[13:26] <shnatsel> ScottL: not Ardour
[13:26] <ScottL> but i did this morning
[13:27] <shnatsel> ScottL: Audacity and GNOME Sound Recorder
[13:27] <ScottL> turns out it was much simplier that i was trying to make it
[13:27] <ScottL> shnatsel, ah!  that makes more sense
[13:28] <ScottL> oh, if you actually google my name you will get some jazz guy who does iron maiden covers...seriously
[13:28] <ScottL> it's not me though
[13:31] <ScottL> shnatsel, you prefer jokosher over audacity and/or sound recorder?
[13:32] <shnatsel> ScottL: never tried tbh, I don't record audio :)
[13:32] <shnatsel> ScottL: audacity is kind of a swiss knife and GNOME Sound Recorder is just damn simple
[13:32] <shnatsel> ScottL: so, I don't REALLY know if Jokosher is good for multi-track recording
[13:33] <shnatsel> ScottL: but it seems to me that its developers knew what they're doing
[13:33] <ScottL> eh, that could be argued with jokosher
[13:34] <ScottL> perhaps i'm confused now, but what are you suggesting is changed?
[13:35] <shnatsel> ScottL: it's just weird to see GNOME Sound Recorder and Audacity suggested to be used for recording audio on a studio distro
[13:36]  * shnatsel edits workflows that he knows well - graphics
[13:36] <ScottL> ah! i see what you are saying now
[13:36] <ScottL> i agree with you sentiments as well
[13:36] <ScottL> we don't currently ship audacity and i've taken a lot of flack for that too
[13:37] <ScottL> that is to say, several people have put work flows on the page but that doesn't mean we ship everything
[13:37] <ScottL> we still have to evaluate whether it is a well developed and supported work flow...AND if it really is something most users will want to do
[13:38] <ScottL> to be direct, i should have separated that page into two pages which are "supported or shipped work flows" with "extra work flows"
[13:38] <ScottL> the ones that we don't ship still are a valuable resource to those who will want to accomplish those tasks
[13:39] <ScottL> shnatsel, one goal i have had for ubuntu studio is to stream line the application set
[13:39] <ScottL> too many times it seems like we included things in the past because "it's a new app" or "it's neat"
[13:39] <ScottL> but it didn't support a whole work flow...it was just one component
[13:40] <ScottL> i would like to find work flows that a majority of our users are going to use and ship those packages
[13:41] <ScottL> i have been toying with making an applications (my first real foray into programing within ubuntu) to support installation of other alternative work flows
[13:41] <ScottL> including those not directly shipped currently
[13:41] <ScottL> for example, not every ubuntu studio user will want to do a podcast... and therefore we shouldn't ship all the tools for this
[13:42] <shnatsel> ScottL: here comes the patched Ubiquity again
[13:42] <ScottL> good point
[13:42] <ScottL> but that means that we have to ship in the image ALL the applications though
[13:42] <ScottL> that starts making a big image perhaps
[13:43] <shnatsel> ScottL: no, we don't
[13:43] <shnatsel> ScottL: we can make some workflows not shipped, but available for download instead
[13:43] <ScottL> lol, i'm trying to ask you why not without it sounding rude....and even "why" seems rude
[13:43] <ScottL> how can we do that?  (that's better)
[13:44] <shnatsel> ScottL: patch Ubiquity further
[13:44] <shnatsel> ScottL: it might support that already btw
[13:45] <ScottL> do you mean like how the installation already pulls stuff from apt-repositories?
[13:45] <ScottL> if that is the case then i'm on board :)
[13:46] <shnatsel> ScottL: yes, it already downloads updates and languages, why can't we make it download extra apps?
[13:46] <ScottL> shnatsel, i'm hoping that "why can't we make it download extra apps" is a rhetorical question ;)
[13:47] <shnatsel> ScottL: it is :)
[13:47] <ScottL> lol
[13:47] <ScottL> good :)
[13:47] <ScottL> i LIKE it
[13:47] <shnatsel> ScottL: in fact, it might already support it
[13:58] <ScottL> shnatsel, do you write for OMGUbuntu?
[13:59] <shnatsel> ScottL: no, it's them who write for me
[13:59] <shnatsel> MWAHAHA!!1
[13:59] <shnatsel> ;)
[14:01] <ScottL> oh..but LOL
[14:01] <ScottL> someone on google+ is positing that it is all Canonical employees who write there, kinda shady stuff is what he is insinuating
[14:02] <shnatsel> ScottL: AFAIK osho has little connection with Canonical... they do have good relationship, though
[14:02] <shnatsel> ScottL: pretty like elementary
[14:05] <ScottL> that is what i thought, but without any evidence...oh well
[14:06] <shnatsel> ScottL: ask akhatj in #elementary or #novacut
[14:06] <shnatsel> ScottL: he's not online atm though
[14:09] <ScottL> shnatsel, i've been reading about novacut...interesting, and controversial, project
[14:09] <shnatsel> ScottL: why controversial? o_O
[14:17] <ScottL> shnatsel, claims of vaporware, misappropriate or mismanagement of donations
[14:18] <shnatsel> O_o
[14:18] <ScottL> at least that some of the stuff i did when i googled it after klatuu's interview with one of the developers
[14:18] <ScottL> s/did/found
[14:18] <ScottL> i've seen some of the demos though, so it would seem that it's not vaporware
[14:18] <shnatsel> not vaporware for sure
[14:18] <shnatsel> after the demos
[14:19] <shnatsel> geez, a famous magazine called Unreal vaporware
[14:19] <shnatsel> all-time classics need time to be created :)
[14:20] <shnatsel> IMHO Novacut is developing very rapidly. Faster than I expected at least.
[14:20] <shnatsel> and donation management is always controversial.
[14:26] <falktx> hm, what did the novacut devs did so far?
[14:26] <shnatsel> flyer workflow expanded (from "?"s to 2 options)
[14:26] <falktx> heh, vacations...?
[14:26] <shnatsel> geez, paperwork!
[14:27] <shnatsel> falktx: let me google some demos
[14:27] <shnatsel> falktx: http://vimeo.com/groups/novacutartistdiaries
[14:32] <ScottL> shnatsel, add other tasks as well, don't feel constrained
[14:33] <shnatsel> ScottL: I know Scribus-NG is usually used for desktop publishing - books, etc
[14:33] <shnatsel> ScottL: I'm not sure how to write that, though
[14:33] <shnatsel> ScottL: AFAIK it's the only FOSS desktop publishing app
[15:08] <astraljava> ScottL: Oh, yes, it was like this, except that those guys actually knew what they were doing. :)
[22:29] <falktx3> shnatsel: ping
[23:26] <falktx3> shnatsel: you there?