[15:42] <joanie> Hi kids. :-)
[15:43] <joanie> I'm vaguely curious what the status if of this bug:
[15:43] <joanie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk+3.0/+bug/769256
[15:43] <ubot2`> Ubuntu bug 769256 in gtk+3.0 "Gdk enumerations do not contain GType info in GIR" [Undecided,New]
[15:43] <joanie> As I just added as a comment, Orca ain't gonna run in Oneiric 
[15:46] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: is that one of the bugs that you were coming up against in testing?
[15:50] <joanie> Pendulum: regardless of what charlie-tca has or has not run up against whilst testing.... Whom must we poke to get this critical bug (from April!!) fixed?
[15:50]  * joanie sharpens a stick. :-P :-P
[15:51] <Pendulum> joanie: well my next question to him was if it was one of the bugs he'd seen, if he knew if it was one of the ones being worked on by TheMuso or not :)
[15:51] <joanie> Pendulum: in terms of whether or not it was one of those bugs....
[15:52] <joanie> It would not have been clearly seen during Accessibility testing if what was being tested did not use introspection
[15:52] <joanie> Orca's introspection port was completed as part of 3.1.90
[15:52] <joanie> ditto for Accerciser's
[15:52] <joanie> For whatever reason, until the 3.1.91 release (last night), the downstream Orca package was 3.1.5
[15:53] <joanie> I wouldn't be surprised if that were due to the package deps I had to bump in Orca
[15:53] <joanie> to ensure Orca using introspection would run
[15:53] <Pendulum> *nods*
[15:54] <joanie> in other words, that's my really verbose way of saying that unless charlie-tca is building upstream ATs (along with all their major dependencies including glib and gobject-introspection and pygobject and gtk+ 3 and ....) then he's likely not yet encountered this bug
[15:54] <charlie-tca> I have not had much time to test orca
[15:54] <joanie> :-)
[15:54] <joanie> charlie-tca: No worries
[15:55] <charlie-tca> It has been failing in Unity, from what I have seen
[15:55] <joanie> What's of interest now is that you no longer *can* test Orca.
[15:55] <charlie-tca> So, it won't work at all in Unity or in Gnome3?
[15:55] <joanie> Not until someone fixes your downstream Gdk introspection packaging issue. 
[15:55] <joanie> That was filed in April
[15:55] <Pendulum> joanie: well, that's helpful since jono asked about a11y in Unity recently so I think we can pretty safely say 'very borked for Orca users'
[15:55] <charlie-tca> It has been working, though
[15:56] <joanie> charlie-tca: scroll up a tad
[15:56] <joanie> or lemme try again
[15:56] <joanie> The bug in question impacts ATs which use gobject introspection
[15:56] <joanie> due to some upstream changes we upstream ATs suddenly (very) had to start using it (like NOW)
[15:57] <charlie-tca> I am not a developer, can you say that in terms I, as a user, can understand?
[15:57] <joanie> charlie-tca: sorry
[15:57] <joanie> sure
[15:57] <joanie> GNOME upstream made a change two or three weeks ago
[15:57] <joanie> as a result Orca and Accerciser had to make a change a couple of weeks ago
[15:57] <charlie-tca> That would explain it breaking bad recently, then
[15:57] <joanie> to use a different set of libraries
[15:57] <charlie-tca> I got it now.
[15:58] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: yes, that means orca is very broken in Oneiric
[15:58] <joanie> But the kicker is that Eitan (Caribou developer) found and reported this NOT-AT bug, which breaks ATs, back in April
[15:58] <joanie> and it has remained ignored
[15:58] <charlie-tca> and just fixing the python/py-ati bugs won't fix it
[15:59] <joanie> and to be clear: Orca works just fine in Fedora
[15:59] <joanie> this is some debian thing
[15:59] <charlie-tca> Um, that is filed against gtk3, which really doesn't get looked at as breaking a11y.
[15:59] <joanie> Pendulum: and jono: To get back to the Unity-specific a11y, last time I checked that was progressing reasonably well
[15:59] <jono> joanie, cool :-)
[16:00] <joanie> but code freeze meant that certain changes might not make it in on time (in Unity or Nux or something)
[16:00] <Pendulum> joanie: yeah, I knew it was progressing, we're just in process of compiling an overall report
[16:00] <charlie-tca> It was working somewhat until a couple of weeks ago, actually
[16:00] <joanie> But the guy doing the Unity a11y work happens to be our upstream a11y team lead
[16:00] <joanie> and he and I have been working on ensuring that Orca and Unity play happily together
[16:01] <joanie> we've even made a few upstream changes in Orca to ensure that it works well with Unity
[16:01] <Pendulum> except now we have this bug and I honestly have no idea who to poke about it
[16:01] <joanie> but jono and others: If this NON-Orca, NON-Unity bug doesn't get fixed, it will all be for naught.
[16:01] <charlie-tca> We poke TheMuso about it. He has been working the pyatspi stuff recently
[16:02] <jono> cool
[16:02] <joanie> charlie-tca: it is not a pyatspi bug
[16:02] <Pendulum> jono: bug in question is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk+3.0/+bug/769256
[16:02] <ubot2`> Ubuntu bug 769256 in gtk+3.0 "Gdk enumerations do not contain GType info in GIR" [Undecided,New]
[16:02] <Pendulum> jono: any idea who should be poked?
[16:02]  * joanie sharpens another stick and smiles sweetly
[16:02] <joanie> ;-)
[16:03] <jono> Pendulum, so this causes pyatspi not to load?
[16:03] <joanie> jono no
[16:03] <joanie> it causes Gdk from introspection to not load after pyatspi was imported
[16:04] <joanie> and ATs need to import pyatspi and Gdk
[16:04] <jono> what is the effect of this on Unity?
[16:04] <joanie> Unity will not be accessible by Orca
[16:04] <joanie> because Orca will not run
[16:04] <jono> right
[16:04] <charlie-tca> apparently, orca / screen reader will not work at all
[16:04] <jono> you should post to ubuntu-desktop about this
[16:05] <jono> and ensure Luke is aware of it
[16:05] <Pendulum> yeah, we've poked Luke :)
[16:05] <Pendulum> just wasn't sure who else
[16:05] <joanie> jono: Oh TheMuso is being poked by me in multiple channels so I suspect he'll be aware of it when he looks at his screen. :-)
[16:05] <jono> Pendulum, as I say, post to ubuntu-desktop
[16:05] <joanie> is there a particular channel I should be poking in since this is not an a11y bug, but rather one that impacts a11y?
[16:06] <jono> joanie, ^
[16:06] <charlie-tca> joanie: #ubuntu-desktop
[16:06]  * joanie nods
[16:06] <jono> you can also ask in #ubuntu-desktop too
[16:06] <jono> but post to the list too
[16:06] <joanie> thanks guys :-)
[16:06] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[16:06] <joanie> jono: I'll leave posting to the list to Pendulum (thanks in advance!)
[16:06] <jono> np, thanks for all your efforts :-)
[16:07] <joanie> it's crazy enough dealing with upstreams. ;-)
[16:07] <joanie> thank you for all of yours jono!
[16:07] <Pendulum> joanie: thanks
[16:07] <jono> :-)
[16:07] <Pendulum> jono: thanks
[16:07] <Pendulum> err... joanie I meant that as 'thanks for poking us here so we knew to poke'
[16:08] <joanie> Pendulum: Ah. :-) Well, I know where the friends of a11y live. :-)
[16:08]  * joanie sharpens a third stick and wanders off to meet new "friends" :-P
[16:08] <Pendulum> joanie: you still need to come visit :P
[16:08] <joanie> I know, I know. But you know this is my "volunteer job"
[16:08] <charlie-tca> I have to go poke them too, since the only thing that can now have printers is Unity, according to changes to the /usr/share/applications/system-config-printer.desktop file
[16:08] <joanie> and life upstream is insane
[16:09] <Pendulum> joanie: fair enough :) I actually meant your Southern MA/Northern CT tour you were talking about doing at some point ;)
[16:09] <joanie> this latest introspection requirement (as a requirement) was a complete suprise
[16:09] <joanie> Aha. True. 
[16:09] <joanie> I shall make a point of doing that, hopefully in the months to come
[16:09] <Pendulum> :D
[16:09] <joanie> I think I've got some guest lecturing to do in Springfield Mass
[16:10] <Pendulum> \o/
[16:10] <Pendulum> if they'll let me in, I'll come to your lecture :)
[16:10] <maco> charlie-tca: what package provides that file?
[16:11] <charlie-tca> which one?
[16:11] <maco> charlie-tca: the broken desktop file
[16:11] <maco> i can make a debdiff and annoy a patch pilot
[16:11] <charlie-tca> should be system-config-printer
[16:12] <charlie-tca> That bug should affect almost everyone that is not using unity, too
[16:12] <maco> charlie-tca: got a bug report?
[16:12] <maco> kde has its own one, but... does xfce?
[16:12] <charlie-tca> bug 841817
[16:12] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 841817 in system-config-printer "system-config-printer missing from menus" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/841817
[16:12] <charlie-tca> We use that to install the printer
[16:12] <maco> ok
[16:13] <maco> so it should be available in gnome, unity, xfce.... lde?
[16:13] <maco> bah, lxde?
[16:13] <charlie-tca> yes, please
[16:13] <charlie-tca> To only show in Unity is a recent change
[16:13] <maco> ah NotShowIn, thats a handy one
[16:14] <maco> i'll make it NotShowIn kde since kde has its own printer config doodad
[16:14] <charlie-tca> Thanks
[16:30] <charlie-tca> Pendulum: I copied the log to try and explain this to pitti, if I need to
[16:31] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: okay, I've got it took and am happy to help
[16:33] <charlie-tca> We can at least bug him. I will add it to my release team meeting notes, too
[19:01] <maco> charlie-tca: bryce sponsored a patch for it
[19:01] <charlie-tca> Thank you very much for doing that!
[20:00] <Pendulum> TheMuso: just to bug you more, the menus being hidden thing that jono blogged about today, will that impact people who use Orca at all or will keyboard shortcuts still work without the menu being 'visible'?
[21:53] <TheMuso> Pendulum: Menus being hidden?
[21:55] <Pendulum> TheMuso: the windows buttons are now hidden until you mouseover them
[21:56] <TheMuso> Pendulum: oh ok
[21:56] <Pendulum> I guess by your response it shouldn't be an issue with people who use keyboard shortcuts? (since it's something that's in beta 1)
[22:01] <TheMuso> No it shouldn't be, however keyboard shortcuts to the panel in both 2d and 3d are currently non-functional.
[22:01] <TheMuso> A bug has been filed.
[22:08] <paul_h1> TheMuso: is that why my desktop appeared to lock up when I booted the Oneric beta1 CD yesterday and chose the live session option? I heard "welcome to orca, desktop", but then couldn't make anything happen
[22:09] <TheMuso> paul_h1: Partly due to the fact that you went into Unity 3D.
[22:09] <TheMuso> Assuming you have the hardware to use that of course.
[22:09] <TheMuso> and your hardware works with free drivers.
[22:10] <charlie-tca> TheMuso: did you catch the discussion on bug 769256
[22:10] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 769256 in gtk+3.0 "Gdk enumerations do not contain GType info in GIR" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/769256
[22:10] <charlie-tca> supposed to have broken orca completely in Unity
[22:10] <TheMuso> charlie-tca: Yes I did.
[22:11] <TheMuso> charlie-tca: Its broken orca period.
[22:11] <charlie-tca> Okay
[22:11] <TheMuso> As well as accerciser.
[22:11] <charlie-tca> Will press pitti tomorrow about trying to get it fixed
[22:14] <TheMuso> I will talk to him about it when he comes on in my afternoon.
[22:14] <charlie-tca> Great
[22:14] <paul_h1> TheMuso: didn't you tell me that the screen reader profile was going to make the system boot into unity 2D?
[22:14] <charlie-tca> You probably understand it much better than I do
[22:16] <TheMuso> paul_h1: Yes, but that code didn't land by beta 1.
[22:18] <paul_h1> TheMuso: oh okay. well one good thing is that my USB braille display is now being detected and brltty is started automatically and orca is using it. oh, didn't the code to have a sound played at the try it/install screen land either?
[22:18] <TheMuso> paul_h1: yes it did but its not working. Its on my "to debug" list.
[22:18] <TheMuso> to debug
[22:20] <paul_h1> TheMuso: not a major issue as you can simply wait until the CD drive spins down
[22:20] <TheMuso> paul_h1: Yes, but the sound will still be useful.
[23:37] <AlanBell> handy for booting from USB in particular