[00:04] <highvoltage> ScottK: ah that was a previous one (which I couldn't attend either)
[01:45] <ScottK> highvoltage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/CC seems to be missing that one.
[01:54] <ScottK> http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ too.
[01:54] <ScottK> pleia2: Where are the minutes/logs of the CC meeting where this change in membership requirements was decided?
[02:10] <pleia2> ScottK: there wasn't such a meeting (and there weren't any CC meetings in August), it was mostly a discussion with the boards and general reaffirmation in blog posts by several community members that upstream counts if the intent/inspiration of the work helps ubuntu and they are working closely with others in the ubuntu community
[02:11] <pleia2> that's how it always was, I think it just became a bit unclear
[02:11] <ScottK> How is it reaffirmation to do something we've never done?
[02:11] <pleia2> my debian work counted when I became a member in 2007
[02:11] <ScottK> How many Launchpad developers got membership in Ubuntu via their work on LP?
[02:11] <pleia2> I don't know
[02:12] <ScottK> None.
[02:12] <ScottK> The first one applying was one of the inspirations for the topic.
[02:12] <pleia2> but if they're working with the community and have testimonials speaking to that then they should
[02:13] <ScottK> If they are working with the Ubuntu community, sure, but not for code they write in Launchpad.
[02:14] <pleia2> if you don't think the question was answered satisfactorily, can you email the CC? I can't really speak for everyone here
[02:14] <ScottK> I'd like for someone to document what was decided.
[02:14] <ScottK> Until that's done, there's nothing to have an opinion on.
[02:15] <pleia2> I don't know there is much of a specific statement beyond mark's blog post that summed up the discussions
[02:16] <ScottK> It seems very odd to have something on a CC agenda for a month and then when the next meeting rolls around have it have already been decided with no community discussion.
[02:16] <ScottK> Every blog post Mark writes doesn't constitute policy for the project.
[02:16] <ScottK> I'd like to know what that is.
[02:16] <pleia2> there were multiple very long threads on the -devel list and several private discussions that led up to his post
[02:17] <ScottK> OK.  It sounds to me like not special casing Canonical the same way Congress doesn't write tax breaks for specific companies.
[02:18] <pleia2> it's really more complicated than upstream vs non-upstream, there has to be some kind of desire to work with the wider community and improve ubuntu (even if you want to improve everything else too)
[02:18] <pleia2> so it's very hard to write specific rules, it's more making sure the boards keep intent in mind when they review applications
[02:19] <ScottK> Kernel hackers want to improve everything.  So are they all eligible?
[02:19]  * pleia2 sighs
[02:19] <pleia2> this is going to turn into the same discussion that's been hashed out several times and I don't have the time for it right now, the short answer is "it depends"
[02:20] <ScottK> I'd like to see a policy statement that described the "it depends".
[02:20] <pleia2> does the kernel developer handle launchpad bugs in ubuntu because they see a need to improve the experience? do they work with the ubuntu kernel team?
[02:20] <ScottK> I know several DDs that qualify on that basis.
[02:20] <pleia2> ok, I'll write the email to the rest of the CC asking for such a statement
[02:21] <ScottK> Thanks.
[11:04] <barry> jelmer_: hi.  i saw poolie is not feeling well.  do we have enough people for a meeting today?
[11:04] <jelmer_> barry: jam is sprinting so he probably won't be around either
[11:05] <barry> jelmer_: so, let's just postpone it for 2 weeks.  we can continue to discuss on the mlist
[11:05] <jelmer_> hi jacob
[11:05] <jelmer_> sorry, jacob
[11:05] <jelmer_> barry: ok
[11:06] <barry> jelmer_: just to leave you on a high note, i *love* the new status output for branching a source branch
[11:06] <jelmer_> barry: Thanks. it's all jam, though :)
[11:06] <barry> :)
[13:18] <highvoltage> ScottK: I think you're right, proposed changes in membership should be documented and there should be some opportunity for feedback. I'm not sure where it was discussed by the CC. I was under the impression that it was at a CC meeting, but that doesn't seem to be the case
[14:19] <ScottK> highvoltage: No, it turns out it was in private.
[14:19] <ScottK> I've asked the CC for some policy statement so we can at least know what they decided.
[14:21] <highvoltage> ScottK: Ok, I'm not sure that any decisions have been layed in stone though. As far as I'm aware it's an ongoing process.
[14:23] <ScottK> I'd like to understand where the CC is on it because my assessment of the results of their conversation are that they decided to not make any changes, but also to do the opposite of what we've done.  Hence I'd like to understand their position better.
[14:24] <ScottK> Considering people who have to make such decisions (I'm one of them on Kubuntu Council) are unclear on the rule, I think the need for some kind of documentation is clear.
[14:32] <highvoltage> ScottK: Indeed, I can understand why the CC would want to discuss it in private initially, but I can't find any public communication about it from the CC. Will do something about that today...
[14:33] <ScottK> I already talked to one of the CC members and they said they'd write the CC list and ask for a public statement.
[14:33] <ScottK> I don't think further action is needed right now.
[14:35] <highvoltage> Ok, if someone is already taking care of it then that's great. I'll wait until next week then before nudging anyone.
[15:00] <cjwatson> Hi folks
[15:01] <bdmurray> hi
[15:01] <barry> hi
[15:01]  * stgraber waves
[15:01] <jhunt> o/
[15:02] <cjwatson> #startmeeting
[15:02] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep  7 15:02:15 2011 UTC.  The chair is cjwatson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[15:02] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[15:02] <cjwatson> so I believe that mvo and slangasek are on holiday and ev is at Plumbers
[15:03] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] lightning round
[15:03] <cjwatson> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko stgraber jhunt bdmurray)
[15:03] <cjwatson> jhunt stgraber bdmurray doko barry cjwatson
[15:03] <cjwatson> not rigged, honest
[15:03] <jhunt> Fix for bug 834813 now in upstream libnih. Finishing tests for Upstart
[15:03] <jhunt> job logging (written 82 new Upstart tests so far!).
[15:03] <jhunt> ☕
[15:03] <doko> argh, missed mumble
[15:03] <stgraber> - This past week
[15:03] <stgraber>  - Monday was a public holiday (labour day)
[15:03] <stgraber>  - Spent most of last Wednesday and Thursday doing ISO testing and bug fixes for beta1
[15:03] <stgraber>  - Did quite a bit of ubiquity debugging and bug fixing
[15:03] <stgraber>  - Started poking at friendly recovery.
[15:03] <stgraber>    - Got it running from /lib (though /usr will be required for whiptail).
[15:04] <stgraber>    - Still need to add some fallback code for when /usr isn't there.
[15:04] <stgraber>    - Asked James for some ideas on how to start friendly recovery really early in the boot sequence.
[15:04] <stgraber>    - Between his e-mail and our mumble discussion, I have enough ideas to start poking at possible implementations.
[15:04] <stgraber>  - Continued working on IPv6 testing. Got the code to generate all the VMs done, just need to work on preseeding now.
[15:04] <stgraber>  - Gave a session on the ARB at the Ubuntu App Developer week
[15:04] <stgraber>  - Worked on a few bugfixes for Arkose and tried to get it translated
[15:04] <stgraber>  - Started setting up an iSCSI test environment for bug 838809
[15:04] <stgraber> - TODO
[15:04] <stgraber>  - Debug that iSCSI bug
[15:04] <stgraber>  - Get a new friendly-recovery released fixing bug 234409 and bug 575469 (and probably some others)
[15:04] <stgraber>  - Finish implementing IPv6 testing
[15:04] <stgraber>  - TPM stuff
[15:04] <stgraber> (done)
[15:04] <cjwatson> stgraber: in some ways I rather liked Lennart's idea that if /usr is separate then the initramfs should deal with mounting it too; although it potentially has boot time implications
[15:04] <bdmurray> bug triage of foundation's bug reports
[15:04] <bdmurray> iso-testing bug review and triage
[15:04] <bdmurray> usb-creator bug review and testing
[15:05] <bdmurray> UDD querying for standard output apport package install failures
[15:05] <bdmurray> blog post regarding using UDD when Launchpad text searches are inadequate
[15:05] <bdmurray> investigation into ubiquity version tagging in the source package hook
[15:05] <bdmurray> wrote a bug bot function to deal with failures running update-initramfs on LiveMedia which results in package install failures
[15:05] <bdmurray> created a duplicate siganture for dkms driver failures
[15:05] <bdmurray> review of dkms bug report duplicate signatures
[15:05] <bdmurray> email to bug control regarding filtering bugpattern-needed mailing list bug reports
[15:05] <bdmurray> review of and email to dholbach regarding Bugs/Testing progress tracking
[15:05] <bdmurray> replaced power supply in desktop system
[15:05] <bdmurray> hp touchsmart tm2 troubleshooting and debugging (updated BIOS to resolve boot failure)
[15:05] <bdmurray> holidays (half of Thursday, all of Friday and Monday)
[15:05] <bdmurray> done
[15:05] <barry> bdmurray: is your blog post on voices?
[15:06] <bdmurray> barry: no just on planet.ubuntu.com
[15:06] <stgraber> cjwatson: yeah, I guess /usr is important enough that the initramfs should take care of mounting it, though for the recovery mode, the least file systems we depend on the better (as your /usr partition can be corrupted)
[15:06] <cjwatson> stgraber: yes, true
[15:07] <cjwatson> doko:
[15:07] <doko> - GCC update (should be final for anything but ARM)
[15:08] <doko> - NBS whole week, in need of anti-depressives now
[15:08] <doko> ..
[15:08] <barry> i guess that's my cue...
[15:08] <barry> short week due to usa holiday.  bug 832864 (pyside ftbfs); ffe attained and uploaded new versions of apiextractor, generatorrunner, shiboken, and pyside.  sbuild hackery fun: <http://tinyurl.com/3b2uewn>.  patch pilot, bugs: 770752, 835763, 835763, 835765, 831411, 829078, bug 831411 (zope packages to dhpy2).  xorg crash diagnostics.  bug 407862 (rsyslog - still investigating, can't reproduce).  working on lts ppa for lp.  done.
[15:09] <cjwatson> Quite a bit more work on NBS/FTBFS.
[15:09] <cjwatson> Prepared transitional openssl098 package based on Debian's (but we had a non-trivial set of patches against openssl which needed to be ported, so it took a while).
[15:09] <cjwatson> Uploaded a few grub2 fixes and a Debian merge (bdmurray, one of the things fixed here was bug 537123 - a Debian developer noticed a problem in the previous fix which I think accounts for something you were asking me about at the rally).
[15:09] <cjwatson> Found a strchr bug on ARM, rather to my surprise!  (Bug 842258)
[15:09] <cjwatson> Patch piloted today.
[15:09] <cjwatson> Worked on bug 420080.  I think I have this almost done; still needs a little work to ensure that /etc/crypttab is written correctly.
[15:09] <cjwatson> Some work on packaging OpenSSH 5.9.
[15:09] <cjwatson> Got my Debian kilt :-)
[15:09] <cjwatson> done
[15:10] <doko> have to forward the ARM report to linaro ...
[15:11] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Bugs
[15:11] <cjwatson> bdmurray: anything we should be paying attention to this week?
[15:11] <bdmurray> I was looking at usb-creator bugs a bit as it made the 5 packages
[15:12] <bdmurray> and I ran across bug 826716 which seems rather important
[15:13] <barry> wibni the oserror included the file name?
[15:13] <stgraber> I "think" I got that bug at the global jam on Sunday. Ended up just dding the ISO image to the usb stick ;)
[15:14] <cjwatson> bleh, my line numbers don't match
[15:15] <cjwatson> I don't get it, why would mkfs.ext3 not be there?
[15:15] <cjwatson> missing /sbin in PATH maybe?
[15:16] <cjwatson> I guess usb-creator could force /sbin:/usr/sbin onto the PATH
[15:16] <bdmurray> oh, I've personally ran into some /sbin not in path issues
[15:16] <cjwatson> that suggests a problem elsewhere; /sbin is supposed to have been on everyone's default PATH for years now
[15:16] <cjwatson> at least in Ubuntu
[15:17] <cjwatson> usb-creator probably ought not to assume that anyway
[15:17] <cjwatson> I'm pretty tempted to blame something desktopy
[15:17] <bdmurray> right this happened to me somewhat recently on an oneiric system
[15:17] <cjwatson> ps auxewww plus a lot of patience can help to track down the root of such problems
[15:18] <bdmurray> cjwatson: did you mean blame something desktopy for messing up PATH?
[15:18] <cjwatson> yeah, because the thing that opens the PAM session is supposed to deal with this, and that's probably lightdm
[15:19] <cjwatson> I can't see a problem here, but my .bashrc has been adding /sbin and /usr/sbin to PATH for a decade or so which probably masks it
[15:19] <bdmurray> if I ssh to localhost PATH is properly set
[15:19] <cjwatson> ssh does its own PAM handling which gets this right
[15:20] <cjwatson> look for the gnome-session process and see what its PATH is
[15:20] <cjwatson> (in ps auxewww)
[15:20] <stgraber> The switch to lightdm broke my path at some point. Though I think that got fixed
[15:20] <bdmurray> I'm using gdm on both the systems I just looked at
[15:20] <cjwatson> anyway, I'll volunteer to fix usb-creator to tolerate this
[15:20] <stgraber> (but at the same time my .bashrc still contains ". /etc/environment" so I wouldn't notice ;))
[15:20] <cjwatson> assigned/milestoned
[15:21] <bdmurray> There is also bug 818177 which seems to be missing some info from apw
[15:21] <cjwatson> not volunteering for that
[15:21] <bdmurray> heh
[15:22] <cjwatson> though I agree with Steve, simply moving the race isn't a solution
[15:23] <bdmurray> Is having it assigned to the team sufficient?
[15:23] <cjwatson> I think somebody needs to take it and discuss with upstream
[15:24] <jhunt> I started to look into this, but couldn't recreate the prob.
[15:25] <jhunt> I'll ping apw (at Plumbers I think) re the further info and see what we can find.
[15:25] <cjwatson> mm, being a race it may be difficult to reproduce directly; a reproduction case would involve getting a udev event into the queue, making sure it isn't processed before udevadm control --exit, and then checking that the event is processed somehow
[15:26] <cjwatson> I suppose flooding udev with events just before the control --exit might do it
[15:26] <cjwatson> err - checking that the event is lost, I mean
[15:26] <cjwatson> the udev_exit case in udevd.c does:
[15:26] <cjwatson>                         /* discard queued events and kill workers */
[15:26] <cjwatson>                         event_queue_cleanup(udev, EVENT_QUEUED);
[15:26] <cjwatson>                         worker_kill(udev, 0);
[15:27] <cjwatson> which is probably fine if udevd has been SIGTERMed, but shouldn't it be a bit more careful in the control --exit case (i.e. graceful exit)?
[15:28] <cjwatson> also I'm surprised that udev in the real root doesn't catch up with the lost events
[15:29] <cjwatson> perhaps we assume that the device for the real root exists by the end of the initramfs
[15:30] <cjwatson> jhunt: anyway, I think you're closest to this; can I assign it to you for the time being, and you can see what you and apw can work out?  feel free to ask me for ideas for debugging methods if need be
[15:30] <jhunt> cjwatson: count on my calling on you at some point :-)
[15:31] <bdmurray> finally there is bug 835625 which steve seems to be watching
[15:31] <cjwatson> yep; it's a messy one, not expecting anything immediately
[15:31] <bdmurray> however it is milestoned and unassigned
[15:32] <cjwatson> yes, I think that's best left to Steve; I'll assign him for the time being
[15:32] <bdmurray> okay, that's all I've got
[15:33] <cjwatson> OK, thank you
[15:33] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] AOB
[15:33] <cjwatson> anything else?
[15:34] <bdmurray> I'm guessing pitti is at plumbers too?  I could use a second pair of eyes regarding the ubiquity apport package hook
[15:34] <cjwatson> I'm not sure; he has been on IRC today
[15:34] <cjwatson> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-11.10-beta-2 isn't looking too bad, but obviously needs continuing attention
[15:39] <cjwatson> sounds like that's a wrap; thanks all
[15:39] <cjwatson> #endmeeting
[15:39] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep  7 15:39:17 2011 UTC.
[15:39] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-07-15.02.moin.txt
[15:39] <stgraber> thanks!
[15:39] <barry> thanks!
[15:39] <doko> bye
[15:40] <jhunt> thanks
[16:57]  * charlie-tca waves
[16:58] <pedro_> hola :-)
[16:59] <nuclearbob> howdy
[16:59] <nuclearbob> gema had some things to take care of today, so we traded weeks
[17:00] <nuclearbob> #startmeeting
[17:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep  7 17:00:17 2011 UTC.  The chair is nuclearbob. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[17:00] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[17:00] <nuclearbob> #meetingtopic Previous Actions
[17:01] <nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
[17:01] <nuclearbob> anything left over from last week?
[17:01] <charlie-tca> Nothing I can remember
[17:01] <nuclearbob> all right
[17:02] <nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Community Efforts/Testing
[17:03] <nuclearbob> any updates for this since yesterday's status emails?
[17:05] <nuclearbob> sounds like no
[17:05] <nuclearbob> I guess we can move on
[17:05] <nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
[17:06] <nuclearbob> bjf, are you still with us or have you rotated back to the kernel team?
[17:07] <nuclearbob> I guess while I'm at it, who is here today?
[17:07] <charlie-tca> o/
[17:08] <pedro_> o/
[17:09] <nuclearbob> I've been working with patrickmw and bjf on automated testing, we're trying to get ltp results created in a virtual machine inserted into a database so they'll be automatically pulled out before the vm is destroyed and then they can be logged by jenkins
[17:09] <charlie-tca> Well, that makes your first time as chair harder
[17:09] <nuclearbob> yeah
[17:10] <nuclearbob> I think bjf will soon be or already is rotated back to the kernel team, so I'll be picking up the work he was doing
[17:10] <nuclearbob> anything else on Automated/Systems Testing?
[17:11] <nuclearbob> all right
[17:11] <nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Odds & Ends
[17:13] <nuclearbob> Gema has been going over possible use case configurations and trying to narrow down a good subset of them to test
[17:13] <nuclearbob> different factors were network connectivity, os layout, partition layout, memory, available disk space, and file systems in use
[17:14] <nuclearbob> bjf created some bug tracking reports here:
[17:14] <nuclearbob> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/iso-testing-open-oneiric.html
[17:14] <nuclearbob> and here:
[17:14] <nuclearbob> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/oneiric-milestone-bugs.html
[17:15] <nuclearbob> anything else?
[17:15] <pedro_> are those being updated regularly?
[17:15] <nuclearbob> the last bugs
[17:16] <nuclearbob> I see are from the 1st, so I'm not sure if they are
[17:16] <pedro_> ah it says : "2011-09-02 00:27:54.043914"
[17:17] <nuclearbob> I'll get information from Brad on what needs to be done to get those up to date and see about taking over that process
[17:17] <pedro_> nuclearbob, awesome, thanks
[17:17] <nuclearbob> any other odds or ends?
[17:18] <nuclearbob> all right
[17:18] <nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Next Chait
[17:18] <nuclearbob> [TOPIC] Next Chair
[17:18] <nuclearbob> last week we planned for Gema to take this meeting and I was going to take next week, but Gema was unavailable today, so we swapped
[17:18] <nuclearbob> unless anyone objects, Gema will chair the next meeting
[17:18] <pedro_> heh sounds like a plan then ;-)
[17:19] <charlie-tca> great
[17:19] <nuclearbob> all right
[17:19] <nuclearbob> [ACTION] gema to chair next meeting
[17:19] <meetingology> ACTION: gema to chair next meeting
[17:19] <nuclearbob> anything else?
[17:20] <nuclearbob> all right, thanks everybody, see you next week
[17:20] <nuclearbob> #endmeeting
[17:20] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep  7 17:20:15 2011 UTC.
[17:20] <meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-07-17.00.moin.txt
[17:20] <charlie-tca> nuclearbob: thank you for chairing
[17:20] <nuclearbob> no problem
[17:20] <pedro_> nuclearbob, thank you for chairing
[17:20] <nuclearbob> it's pretty easy when there aren't very many people here :)
[17:21] <pedro_> indeed :-)
[21:19] <falantino1> hi all