benonsoftwareHi all11:16
benonsoftwareSorry but I don't think I'll be able to come to tomarrows meeting11:16
c7phello all20:10
rickfosbhello all.  sorry I'm late21:01
hanniehi everyone21:01
hannie1 second late, shame on you ;)21:02
godbykhey, rickfosb, hannie.21:02
hanniehi godbyk21:02
rickfosbgodbyk: hey!21:02
hanniehi c7p21:02
rickfosbhi c7p21:04
hannierickfosb, I have added a few things to the spreadsheet's proposed outline (ubunru-desktop)21:04
rickfosbgreat, hannie, I'll take a look21:04
rickfosbI think I'm going to be ready for winter: way too many things going on around here. :-)21:05
godbykdo you want this to be a formal meeting (i.e., using MootBot) or an informal one?21:05
rickfosbWe have an agenda, lets log this one.21:05
MootBotMeeting started at 16:06. The chair is godbyk.21:06
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]21:06
godbyk[TOPIC] Status of 11.04 Ubuntu Manual21:06
MootBotNew Topic:  Status of 11.04 Ubuntu Manual21:06
godbykSo... what is our status?21:06
rickfosbI see that we made some progress a week or so back, especially with our working sessions. ...,21:07
rickfosbHowever,  I realized that some of the actions noted in the spreadsheet, dont' seem to have been 'pushed'21:07
godbykRight now we're still working toward M3?21:07
godbyk[LINK] Meeting agenda: http://ietherpad.com/lxgwiK08tE21:07
MootBotLINK received:  Meeting agenda: http://ietherpad.com/lxgwiK08tE21:07
rickfosbgodbyk: yes M321:08
c7phey all21:08
godbykHey, c7p.21:08
hanniehi c7p21:08
rickfosbI 'think' we're down to 7 or 8 regulars and some of the authors and editors that are shown, did some early work 'in the spreadsheet' at least, but not in the tex files we have.21:09
rickfosbhey c7p21:09
godbykrickfosb: Do you have the link to the spreadsheet handy?21:10
c7prickfosb: have you any feedback from the authors ? you sent them all an email21:10
rickfosbsure standby21:10
rickfosbnone;  I sent two mails, one to ubuntu-manual, and one to the individuals21:11
rickfosbthanks hannie21:11
godbykrickfosb: thanks.21:11
hannierickfosb, you did not get feedback on those emails?21:12
rickfosbfor instance, if you look at hardware preferences, there are lots of notations, but unless I'm missing it, I don't see it in the tex files.  No, hannie,  no feedback21:12
rickfosbWe had a couple of folks, formally leave for work load reasons.21:13
hannieI see no names on the Hardware Preferences sheets, does that mean nobody is working on those subjects?21:14
godbykI've been out of the loop for a little bit.  So people are making suggestions/reporting bugs in this spreadsheet, but no one has corrected the .tex files.  Is that correct?21:14
c7pthis is getting frustrating21:15
rickfosbthe names are in the first tab.  I don't generally 'type' on the chapter tabs so the original team made those remarks... godbyk, correct21:15
c7pgodbyk: yes21:15
hannieI see Chris as one of the authors. It's a pity he is not here21:16
rickfosbI suppose, we could tackle a chapter a week (the small group); but I hate to do it that way...,21:16
godbykHas all of the content been written?21:17
hannieBy the time we're finished we will be in Oneiric21:17
rickfosbI think prologue just needs a re read and done, same with chap 1 and 221:17
godbykIf most of the items in the spreadsheet are just 'change this text to this other text', then I can modify the .tex files fairly quickly.21:18
rickfosbThe other chapters probably need less work; but I've not gone through them like i did with 1 and 221:18
godbykI don't know that I have time to write new content at the moment, though.21:18
c7pi have some time, but my ubuntu pc is broken :/21:18
rickfosbgodbyk: same problem here...  real job is taking 10 - 11 hours / day... so, I've been stretched recently21:19
rickfosbthe writers show trouble shooting as finished;  I'll need to verify their text. maybe they pushed it very early21:20
c7pmaybe we could "cut" the advanced topics so the manual will become more viable21:21
hannierickfosb, do we need a reshuffle of tasks?21:21
c7ptroubleshooting needs a section for unity btw21:21
rickfosbhannie, we could try that with a note to the mail list.21:21
c7pi think hannie is right, since authors don't seem alive :P21:22
godbykThere have only been 40 commits to the repository so far: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/natty/changes21:23
rickfosbOK,  I will send one on one emails tonight to each of the 'missing in action' folks.  Those who do not respond, I'll move to the 'quiet' list. and See about re assigning those of us who do respond21:23
hannieI wanted to suggest to let editors of one chapter read chapters of others21:23
hanniebut I think we do not have enough active people to do so21:23
rickfosbDid you guys see this: http://netsplit.com/2011/09/08/new-ubuntu-release-process/21:24
rickfosbDisscusses shortened release process...  talk about between a rock and a hard place21:25
rickfosbI'll take the action of doing one on one emails to authors and editors to see whose 'alive';  I'll use the mailing list to inform you guys of movement on the chapters.  hannie, have you pushed the changes to ch2 you wanted to make?21:26
godbykThat'd certainly make things more... interesting. :)21:27
c7pseems interesting i've read the half article21:27
godbykrickfosb: If you need someone to go through that spreadsheet and push bug fixes to the .tex files, I'm happy to help with that.21:27
hannierickfosb, I sent you the .tex file because I wanted to let a "native speaker" have a look at my suggestions21:27
rickfosbfor us to get on a six month cycle, we'd need to leverage our work; make the manual highly linked to existing text elsewhere i suspect21:28
godbykrickfosb: I think that's a good idea.  I think that we also need to do a lot better job of (a) getting a lot more people involved, and (b) making it a lot easier for people to write and edit the content.21:28
rickfosbgodbyk Sure, pick a chapter and we'll leave as is until you're ready for some help21:28
rickfosbgodbyk; agree with making it easy to submit content21:29
godbykrickfosb: I can take a look at the hardware chapter first.21:30
rickfosbWhat about a wiki version of the manual - that we would use as source for the actual tex files?  people seem to love 'tweaking' wiki pages... might be a mess thought21:30
godbykToward the goal of making it easier to submit/edit content, I think that moving to a web-based editing system would be helpful.  Unfortunately, this entails finding some competent web developers to help us out.21:31
hanniegodbyk, what about having people send in just plain text and let others do the fancy things like adding code and the like?21:31
godbykrickfosb: Ben Humphrey and I had originally thought of having a wiki system that was moderated and also imposed a little structure.  We never got around to implementing any of it, though.21:31
rickfosbgodbyk agree.  and the hosting21:31
godbykhannie: That'd be fine, too.  I'm happy to handle the market.21:32
godbykI think we need to find ways to enable drive-by editing and commenting.21:32
c7pgodbyk: could we use google docs somehow ?21:32
rickfosbgodbyk +121:32
godbykI should be able to quickly fix errors, point out bugs, suggest new content, etc. as I'm reading the manual.21:32
godbykAt the same time (as long as I'm dreaming), I'd like to see this tightly coupled to a translation system that works much better than our current translation process.21:33
rickfosbI dont' want to loose site of this, and yet want to complete natty...,  Are there any 'launchpad' type tools to help kick off the wiki?21:33
rickfosbor a wiki like page?21:34
godbykrickfosb: I'm not aware of any Launchpad tools for wiki stuff, though they may exist.21:34
c7pgodbyk: i have a plan in my mind about the translation system what can be done, i'll share them soon as long as they become a complete answer21:34
hannieI have a very weird idea: why don't we skip Natty and inmediately start working on Oneiric?21:34
godbykI don't think we want to just have a wiki site, either, as then we're just duplicating help.ubuntu.com.21:35
rickfosbI'll go peek around and see what's there.  I don't even mind 'hosting' the site if that's what it takes.21:35
rickfosbDo we want to vote on hannie's weird idea?  (not all that weird)21:35
godbykrickfosb: Something else we can do to get comments/edits on our PDF is to upload it to http://a.nnotate.com/.21:36
rickfosbI noted that there will be no Dutch translation due to lateness of our work here.21:36
godbykThat site allows people to view the PDF via the website and click to add a comment on the PDF pages.  Then we can incorporate those into the .tex files.21:36
c7pto be honest, ignore translations, who will read a manual of a previous Ubuntu release ?21:37
rickfosbgodbyk I've not seen that before.  easy to implement?  c7p :-))21:37
c7poneiric is right on the corner21:37
hanniec7p and who will read natty when we are almost in oneiric21:37
c7phannie: that's what is said :P21:38
godbykrickfosb: I'm not sure what the costs are now, but it's something they host. So you just sign up, upload the pdf, and let people point out all your typos.21:38
rickfosbhey i bought maverick!   (but my names in the index :)) )21:38
godbykrickfosb: It's easy to add notes to the PDFs on the site. I've used it when I was helping edit a textbook.21:38
hanniec7p I mean the English version, not the translation21:38
rickfosboh.. -- think we'd need a more Ubuntu specific group of readers!21:38
c7phannie: me too21:39
godbykas far as translations go, I think the biggest problem is that our tools basically invalidate the previous editions translated text because they're not smart enough to point out that some of the changes are minor and may not even require re-translation.21:39
rickfosbSemi-fearless leader here:  what do we want to do21:39
godbykWell, if we decide to skip the natty release, when can we start on onieric?21:40
c7pmaybe we shouldn't rush :D21:41
hanniegodbyk, it works (partly) with the ubuntu-docs, I mean transferring translations to a newer version21:41
rickfosbgodbyk: wouldn't we need to start, now? with the current tex files and some sort of view to the new software21:41
c7pi think first we have to change somehow the function of the project/the process of writing21:41
rickfosbc7p +/-121:42
hanniegodbyk, it only needs installation of the beta version of oneiric21:42
c7pgodbyk and rickfosb through some ideas before21:42
rickfosbcan i triple boot? I'm already dual21:42
godbykrickfosb: certainly we'd need to bring things up to date that are still written for maverick.  is oneiric at a state where things have settled enough that we're comfortable writing about it?21:42
hannierickfosb, how about virtualBox?21:42
rickfosbhannie virtualBox?21:43
c7pyeah virtualbox is a good solution if your machine is strong21:43
rickfosboh! gotcha21:43
hannierickfosb, you can install oneiric beta in a virtual machine21:43
godbykI think that if we skip the natty release, we should spend some of that time fixing our project's structure (e.g., finding participants, improving the process, etc.).  otherwise I fear we'll be in the same boat again a few months later.21:44
rickfosbI might could push the old box to do that...,21:44
rickfosbgodbyk +121:44
c7ptotally ! +121:45
rickfosbTo that end: we need a process that allows for moderated drive by authoring/editing21:45
c7peven if we published natty we would have to look on these issues21:45
rickfosbsome 'key' individual die hards that we can trust to stay on top of things21:45
godbykrickfosb: agreed.21:46
rickfosband the promise of all the ice cream you can eat for completing your content on time :)21:46
c7pwell i think everyone here has ideas21:46
rickfosbIt'd melt by the time I ship from Texas21:47
rickfosbmy kind of girl!  ;)21:47
godbykSo I guess the current question is: Do we drop natty?21:47
c7pmaybe we could write them down organise them a bit and concetrate them on the next meeting21:47
hannieI suggested it, so I am for it21:47
godbykI'm fairly ambivalent about it, to be honest.21:48
rickfosbI agree;21:48
hanniegodbyk, what's your problem?21:48
rickfosbI hate to 'lose' the work done, but dont' want to spend the next 5 years 1.5 releases behind21:48
godbykhannie: No problem. I just don't have an opinion on the matter one way or another.21:49
godbykI'm eager to try to reboot/revitalize the project, however. I still think it has a lot of merit.21:50
hannieI think at this moment we ask too much of a very small group of people (especially Rick)21:50
rickfosbgodbyk, is there an html to latex tool?  I love the look and feel of the pdf and am concerned that drive by could break that21:50
godbykrickfosb: There are ways to convert from html to latex, yeah.21:50
rickfosbnot me;  I'm just hearding cats most of the time... (smile)21:50
rickfosbthanks, godbyk, just thinking ahead21:51
hanniegodbyk, doesn't LibreOffice writer has the possibility to write pdf?21:51
godbykI think when the project first started, we had a lot of excitement and momentum because, well, it was new.  Lots of people love writing new content and being able to claim they're a writer/author.21:51
godbykBut now that a lot of text has been written, no one wants to take on the boring job of merely editing/updating it.21:52
rickfosbthen it gets to be work21:52
godbykhannie: I think it does, though I don't think the result is as good as latex generates.21:52
c7pbtw authors dont have to write in latex, i can convert their content/text to latex21:53
godbykRight now if someone notices a typo in the manual or a section that's out of date, they have to install TeX Live (a 2 GB download), grab our code from bzr, learn latex, modify the .tex file, and push the changes back.  That's a *lot* of work.21:53
godbyk(Alternatively, they could file a bug, but I don't think many people have been doing that.)21:53
rickfosbnot many21:53
godbykHave many of our authors been taking us up on that option, c7p?21:53
godbykOur process and toolchain is a bit of hack.  We just mashed together the tools we could find at the time that would get the job done.21:54
c7pi dont think they know that i offer to do this21:54
rickfosbDo we want to take the issue to the 'greater' team at large or make a decision on natty here?21:55
godbykI think that, at some point, we should clearly define the goals of our project and then spend some time and effort into creating a process and toolchain that helps us most easily achieve those goals.21:55
rickfosbgodbyk +121:55
hannieIs this a formal meeting where everyone is supposed to be present?21:55
c7pgodbyk: +121:55
rickfosbHow about a 'formal' meeting with that as the agenda: retool, reboot, and get started?21:56
hannierickfosb, +121:56
rickfosbMight take more than one meeting.21:56
godbykrickfosb: We could open up the topic on the mailing list for a week or so to get an idea for how others feel about it.  I'm a bit hesitant to take a vote on the topic when there are only four of us present, but then it seems that there aren't many other active participants to ask anyway.21:56
c7pi think this meeting is formal too21:56
godbykrickfosb: I think that'd be a good idea.21:56
rickfosbgodbyk agree, there are too few of us today to make this particular change.  I'll work up a nice letter and state our case.21:57
hannieI think for an important decision like this we have to get as many people as possible together21:58
godbykc7p: feeling ambivalent, too? :-)21:58
rickfosbc7p  what would you like?21:59
hannieambivalent = do not know ;)21:59
godbykShall we set a meeting for next weekend to take a formal vote?21:59
godbykhannie: ambivalent: Having mixed feelings or contradictory ideas about something21:59
c7pnah,i agree we have to talk about the core/function of the project21:59
godbykhannie: or "I don't care"22:00
c7pim sure that even if we have to vote on a formal meeting others will agree on this22:00
rickfosbis next weekend enought time?22:00
rickfosbI'll put the poll into the letter to the mailing list if you want22:00
godbykrickfosb: Probably.  I don't see a lot of point in dragging out.  The sooner we can make a decision the sooner we can either get natty released or move on to oneiric.22:00
godbykrickfosb: that's a good idea.22:01
rickfosbok, c7p hannie?22:01
hannienext weekend fine with me22:01
c7peven tomorrow is fine for me :P22:01
hannieI am away from sept21-oct322:01
c7pi think we can set a poll that will close mid week22:02
rickfosbok, I'll work up an email with a meeting poll and agenda... you guys get some sleep, its still early here22:02
c7pthe options could be: continue natty, not continue22:02
c7pthen we can see the subject of the next meeting22:02
hanniethanks, rickfosb, godbyk, c7p22:02
hanniesee you all next time22:03
godbykthanks for staying up late, hannie and c7p!22:03
rickfosbthanks guys!22:03
c7phannie: cya22:03
hannieYou're welcome22:03
MootBotMeeting finished at 17:03.22:03
c7prickfosb godbyk do you need me for anything ?22:04
godbykc7p: I don't at the moment.  You should get some sleep! :)22:04
rickfosbNo c7p, I'm just reading the notes22:05
rickfosbI do appreciate your help22:05
c7pgood evening22:05
rickfosbboth of you22:05
rickfosbgood evening22:05
c7psend me mail for whatever you need22:05
rickfosbyes sir22:05
godbykthanks, c7p!22:05
rickfosbI always do!!!122:06
rickfosbi'd better get a beverage... this needs to be cogent..  (laugh)22:06
godbykrickfosb: ha!22:07
godbykrickfosb: btw, here are some of the notes that humphreybc and I made eons ago about creating a new website for the ubuntu manual project: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-support-and-learning-center22:07
godbykI think that the Ask Ubuntu site may cover some of this ground now, but the manual/wiki editing stuff is probably still valid.22:08
rickfosbk thanks,  I'm looking at the help site as well... want to see what they publish22:08
rickfosbI think if we had a larger audience, and a place to work (google docs, is ok, but ... not) we could get a lot more done22:09
rickfosbespecially, if we could still output to printed matter...22:10
rickfosbhave a good one godbyk,  I'm going to wander off for a few...22:10
godbyksee ya later, rickfosb.22:10

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