[11:16] <benonsoftware> Hi all
[11:16] <benonsoftware> Sorry but I don't think I'll be able to come to tomarrows meeting
[20:10] <c7p> hello all
[21:01] <rickfosb> hello all.  sorry I'm late
[21:01] <hannie> hi everyone
[21:02] <hannie> 1 second late, shame on you ;)
[21:02] <godbyk> hey, rickfosb, hannie.
[21:02] <hannie> hi godbyk
[21:02] <rickfosb> godbyk: hey!
[21:02] <hannie> hi c7p
[21:04] <rickfosb> hi c7p
[21:04] <hannie> rickfosb, I have added a few things to the spreadsheet's proposed outline (ubunru-desktop)
[21:04] <hannie> *ubuntu
[21:04] <rickfosb> great, hannie, I'll take a look
[21:05] <rickfosb> I think I'm going to be ready for winter: way too many things going on around here. :-)
[21:05] <godbyk> do you want this to be a formal meeting (i.e., using MootBot) or an informal one?
[21:05] <rickfosb> We have an agenda, lets log this one.
[21:05] <godbyk> 'kay.
[21:06] <godbyk> #startmeeting
[21:06] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:06. The chair is godbyk.
[21:06] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:06] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Status of 11.04 Ubuntu Manual
[21:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Status of 11.04 Ubuntu Manual
[21:06] <godbyk> So... what is our status?
[21:07] <rickfosb> I see that we made some progress a week or so back, especially with our working sessions. ...,
[21:07] <rickfosb> However,  I realized that some of the actions noted in the spreadsheet, dont' seem to have been 'pushed'
[21:07] <godbyk> Right now we're still working toward M3?
[21:07] <godbyk> [LINK] Meeting agenda: http://ietherpad.com/lxgwiK08tE
[21:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  Meeting agenda: http://ietherpad.com/lxgwiK08tE
[21:08] <rickfosb> godbyk: yes M3
[21:08] <c7p> hey all
[21:08] <godbyk> Hey, c7p.
[21:08] <hannie> hi c7p
[21:09] <rickfosb> I 'think' we're down to 7 or 8 regulars and some of the authors and editors that are shown, did some early work 'in the spreadsheet' at least, but not in the tex files we have.
[21:09] <rickfosb> hey c7p
[21:10] <godbyk> rickfosb: Do you have the link to the spreadsheet handy?
[21:10] <c7p> rickfosb: have you any feedback from the authors ? you sent them all an email
[21:10] <rickfosb> sure standby
[21:11] <hannie> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CNDambUJ&key=0AtkeORuPIMxsdGtWRXlvdHB4bktTNkF5LTNwWU5KQnc&hl=en_US&authkey=CNDambUJ#gid=6
[21:11] <rickfosb> none;  I sent two mails, one to ubuntu-manual, and one to the individuals
[21:11] <rickfosb> thanks hannie
[21:11] <godbyk> rickfosb: thanks.
[21:12] <hannie> rickfosb, you did not get feedback on those emails?
[21:12] <c7p> :/
[21:12] <rickfosb> for instance, if you look at hardware preferences, there are lots of notations, but unless I'm missing it, I don't see it in the tex files.  No, hannie,  no feedback
[21:13] <rickfosb> We had a couple of folks, formally leave for work load reasons.
[21:14] <hannie> I see no names on the Hardware Preferences sheets, does that mean nobody is working on those subjects?
[21:14] <godbyk> I've been out of the loop for a little bit.  So people are making suggestions/reporting bugs in this spreadsheet, but no one has corrected the .tex files.  Is that correct?
[21:15] <c7p> this is getting frustrating
[21:15] <rickfosb> the names are in the first tab.  I don't generally 'type' on the chapter tabs so the original team made those remarks... godbyk, correct
[21:15] <c7p> godbyk: yes
[21:16] <hannie> I see Chris as one of the authors. It's a pity he is not here
[21:16] <rickfosb> I suppose, we could tackle a chapter a week (the small group); but I hate to do it that way...,
[21:17] <godbyk> Has all of the content been written?
[21:17] <c7p> yea
[21:17] <hannie> By the time we're finished we will be in Oneiric
[21:17] <rickfosb> I think prologue just needs a re read and done, same with chap 1 and 2
[21:18] <godbyk> If most of the items in the spreadsheet are just 'change this text to this other text', then I can modify the .tex files fairly quickly.
[21:18] <rickfosb> The other chapters probably need less work; but I've not gone through them like i did with 1 and 2
[21:18] <godbyk> I don't know that I have time to write new content at the moment, though.
[21:18] <c7p> i have some time, but my ubuntu pc is broken :/
[21:19] <rickfosb> godbyk: same problem here...  real job is taking 10 - 11 hours / day... so, I've been stretched recently
[21:20] <rickfosb> the writers show trouble shooting as finished;  I'll need to verify their text. maybe they pushed it very early
[21:21] <c7p> maybe we could "cut" the advanced topics so the manual will become more viable
[21:21] <hannie> rickfosb, do we need a reshuffle of tasks?
[21:21] <c7p> troubleshooting needs a section for unity btw
[21:21] <rickfosb> hannie, we could try that with a note to the mail list.
[21:22] <c7p> i think hannie is right, since authors don't seem alive :P
[21:23] <godbyk> There have only been 40 commits to the repository so far: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/natty/changes
[21:23] <rickfosb> OK,  I will send one on one emails tonight to each of the 'missing in action' folks.  Those who do not respond, I'll move to the 'quiet' list. and See about re assigning those of us who do respond
[21:23] <hannie> I wanted to suggest to let editors of one chapter read chapters of others
[21:23] <hannie> but I think we do not have enough active people to do so
[21:24] <rickfosb> Did you guys see this: http://netsplit.com/2011/09/08/new-ubuntu-release-process/
[21:25] <rickfosb> Disscusses shortened release process...  talk about between a rock and a hard place
[21:25] <rickfosb> :)
[21:26] <rickfosb> I'll take the action of doing one on one emails to authors and editors to see whose 'alive';  I'll use the mailing list to inform you guys of movement on the chapters.  hannie, have you pushed the changes to ch2 you wanted to make?
[21:27] <godbyk> That'd certainly make things more... interesting. :)
[21:27] <c7p> seems interesting i've read the half article
[21:27] <godbyk> rickfosb: If you need someone to go through that spreadsheet and push bug fixes to the .tex files, I'm happy to help with that.
[21:27] <hannie> rickfosb, I sent you the .tex file because I wanted to let a "native speaker" have a look at my suggestions
[21:28] <rickfosb> for us to get on a six month cycle, we'd need to leverage our work; make the manual highly linked to existing text elsewhere i suspect
[21:28] <godbyk> rickfosb: I think that's a good idea.  I think that we also need to do a lot better job of (a) getting a lot more people involved, and (b) making it a lot easier for people to write and edit the content.
[21:28] <rickfosb> godbyk Sure, pick a chapter and we'll leave as is until you're ready for some help
[21:29] <rickfosb> godbyk; agree with making it easy to submit content
[21:29] <hannie> +1
[21:30] <godbyk> rickfosb: I can take a look at the hardware chapter first.
[21:30] <c7p> +1
[21:30] <rickfosb> What about a wiki version of the manual - that we would use as source for the actual tex files?  people seem to love 'tweaking' wiki pages... might be a mess thought
[21:31] <godbyk> Toward the goal of making it easier to submit/edit content, I think that moving to a web-based editing system would be helpful.  Unfortunately, this entails finding some competent web developers to help us out.
[21:31] <rickfosb> *though
[21:31] <hannie> godbyk, what about having people send in just plain text and let others do the fancy things like adding code and the like?
[21:31] <godbyk> rickfosb: Ben Humphrey and I had originally thought of having a wiki system that was moderated and also imposed a little structure.  We never got around to implementing any of it, though.
[21:31] <rickfosb> godbyk agree.  and the hosting
[21:32] <godbyk> hannie: That'd be fine, too.  I'm happy to handle the market.
[21:32] <godbyk> I think we need to find ways to enable drive-by editing and commenting.
[21:32] <c7p> godbyk: could we use google docs somehow ?
[21:32] <rickfosb> godbyk +1
[21:32] <godbyk> I should be able to quickly fix errors, point out bugs, suggest new content, etc. as I'm reading the manual.
[21:33] <godbyk> At the same time (as long as I'm dreaming), I'd like to see this tightly coupled to a translation system that works much better than our current translation process.
[21:33] <rickfosb> I dont' want to loose site of this, and yet want to complete natty...,  Are there any 'launchpad' type tools to help kick off the wiki?
[21:34] <rickfosb> or a wiki like page?
[21:34] <godbyk> rickfosb: I'm not aware of any Launchpad tools for wiki stuff, though they may exist.
[21:34] <c7p> godbyk: i have a plan in my mind about the translation system what can be done, i'll share them soon as long as they become a complete answer
[21:34] <hannie> I have a very weird idea: why don't we skip Natty and inmediately start working on Oneiric?
[21:35] <godbyk> I don't think we want to just have a wiki site, either, as then we're just duplicating help.ubuntu.com.
[21:35] <rickfosb> I'll go peek around and see what's there.  I don't even mind 'hosting' the site if that's what it takes.
[21:35] <rickfosb> Do we want to vote on hannie's weird idea?  (not all that weird)
[21:36] <godbyk> rickfosb: Something else we can do to get comments/edits on our PDF is to upload it to http://a.nnotate.com/.
[21:36] <rickfosb> I noted that there will be no Dutch translation due to lateness of our work here.
[21:36] <godbyk> That site allows people to view the PDF via the website and click to add a comment on the PDF pages.  Then we can incorporate those into the .tex files.
[21:36] <hannie> true
[21:37] <c7p> to be honest, ignore translations, who will read a manual of a previous Ubuntu release ?
[21:37] <rickfosb> godbyk I've not seen that before.  easy to implement?  c7p :-))
[21:37] <c7p> oneiric is right on the corner
[21:37] <hannie> c7p and who will read natty when we are almost in oneiric
[21:38] <c7p> hannie: that's what is said :P
[21:38] <godbyk> rickfosb: I'm not sure what the costs are now, but it's something they host. So you just sign up, upload the pdf, and let people point out all your typos.
[21:38] <rickfosb> hey i bought maverick!   (but my names in the index :)) )
[21:38] <godbyk> rickfosb: It's easy to add notes to the PDFs on the site. I've used it when I was helping edit a textbook.
[21:38] <hannie> c7p I mean the English version, not the translation
[21:38] <rickfosb> oh.. -- think we'd need a more Ubuntu specific group of readers!
[21:39] <c7p> hannie: me too
[21:39] <godbyk> as far as translations go, I think the biggest problem is that our tools basically invalidate the previous editions translated text because they're not smart enough to point out that some of the changes are minor and may not even require re-translation.
[21:39] <rickfosb> Semi-fearless leader here:  what do we want to do
[21:40] <godbyk> Well, if we decide to skip the natty release, when can we start on onieric?
[21:41] <c7p> maybe we shouldn't rush :D
[21:41] <hannie> godbyk, it works (partly) with the ubuntu-docs, I mean transferring translations to a newer version
[21:41] <rickfosb> godbyk: wouldn't we need to start, now? with the current tex files and some sort of view to the new software
[21:41] <c7p> i think first we have to change somehow the function of the project/the process of writing
[21:42] <rickfosb> c7p +/-1
[21:42] <hannie> godbyk, it only needs installation of the beta version of oneiric
[21:42] <c7p> godbyk and rickfosb through some ideas before
[21:42] <rickfosb> can i triple boot? I'm already dual
[21:42] <godbyk> rickfosb: certainly we'd need to bring things up to date that are still written for maverick.  is oneiric at a state where things have settled enough that we're comfortable writing about it?
[21:42] <hannie> rickfosb, how about virtualBox?
[21:43] <rickfosb> hannie virtualBox?
[21:43] <c7p> yeah virtualbox is a good solution if your machine is strong
[21:43] <rickfosb> oh! gotcha
[21:43] <hannie> rickfosb, you can install oneiric beta in a virtual machine
[21:44] <godbyk> I think that if we skip the natty release, we should spend some of that time fixing our project's structure (e.g., finding participants, improving the process, etc.).  otherwise I fear we'll be in the same boat again a few months later.
[21:44] <rickfosb> I might could push the old box to do that...,
[21:44] <rickfosb> godbyk +1
[21:45] <c7p> totally ! +1
[21:45] <rickfosb> To that end: we need a process that allows for moderated drive by authoring/editing
[21:45] <c7p> even if we published natty we would have to look on these issues
[21:45] <rickfosb> some 'key' individual die hards that we can trust to stay on top of things
[21:46] <godbyk> rickfosb: agreed.
[21:46] <c7p> yeah
[21:46] <rickfosb> and the promise of all the ice cream you can eat for completing your content on time :)
[21:46] <godbyk> heh
[21:46] <c7p> well i think everyone here has ideas
[21:47] <rickfosb> It'd melt by the time I ship from Texas
[21:47] <hannie> discipline!
[21:47] <rickfosb> my kind of girl!  ;)
[21:47] <godbyk> So I guess the current question is: Do we drop natty?
[21:47] <c7p> maybe we could write them down organise them a bit and concetrate them on the next meeting
[21:47] <hannie> I suggested it, so I am for it
[21:48] <godbyk> I'm fairly ambivalent about it, to be honest.
[21:48] <rickfosb> I agree;
[21:48] <hannie> godbyk, what's your problem?
[21:48] <rickfosb> I hate to 'lose' the work done, but dont' want to spend the next 5 years 1.5 releases behind
[21:49] <godbyk> hannie: No problem. I just don't have an opinion on the matter one way or another.
[21:50] <godbyk> I'm eager to try to reboot/revitalize the project, however. I still think it has a lot of merit.
[21:50] <hannie> I think at this moment we ask too much of a very small group of people (especially Rick)
[21:50] <rickfosb> godbyk, is there an html to latex tool?  I love the look and feel of the pdf and am concerned that drive by could break that
[21:50] <godbyk> rickfosb: There are ways to convert from html to latex, yeah.
[21:50] <rickfosb> not me;  I'm just hearding cats most of the time... (smile)
[21:51] <rickfosb> thanks, godbyk, just thinking ahead
[21:51] <hannie> godbyk, doesn't LibreOffice writer has the possibility to write pdf?
[21:51] <hannie> *have
[21:51] <godbyk> I think when the project first started, we had a lot of excitement and momentum because, well, it was new.  Lots of people love writing new content and being able to claim they're a writer/author.
[21:52] <godbyk> But now that a lot of text has been written, no one wants to take on the boring job of merely editing/updating it.
[21:52] <rickfosb> then it gets to be work
[21:52] <godbyk> hannie: I think it does, though I don't think the result is as good as latex generates.
[21:53] <c7p> btw authors dont have to write in latex, i can convert their content/text to latex
[21:53] <godbyk> Right now if someone notices a typo in the manual or a section that's out of date, they have to install TeX Live (a 2 GB download), grab our code from bzr, learn latex, modify the .tex file, and push the changes back.  That's a *lot* of work.
[21:53] <godbyk> (Alternatively, they could file a bug, but I don't think many people have been doing that.)
[21:53] <rickfosb> not many
[21:53] <godbyk> Have many of our authors been taking us up on that option, c7p?
[21:54] <godbyk> Our process and toolchain is a bit of hack.  We just mashed together the tools we could find at the time that would get the job done.
[21:54] <c7p> i dont think they know that i offer to do this
[21:55] <c7p> +1
[21:55] <rickfosb> Do we want to take the issue to the 'greater' team at large or make a decision on natty here?
[21:55] <godbyk> I think that, at some point, we should clearly define the goals of our project and then spend some time and effort into creating a process and toolchain that helps us most easily achieve those goals.
[21:55] <rickfosb> godbyk +1
[21:55] <hannie> Is this a formal meeting where everyone is supposed to be present?
[21:55] <c7p> godbyk: +1
[21:56] <rickfosb> How about a 'formal' meeting with that as the agenda: retool, reboot, and get started?
[21:56] <hannie> rickfosb, +1
[21:56] <rickfosb> Might take more than one meeting.
[21:56] <godbyk> rickfosb: We could open up the topic on the mailing list for a week or so to get an idea for how others feel about it.  I'm a bit hesitant to take a vote on the topic when there are only four of us present, but then it seems that there aren't many other active participants to ask anyway.
[21:56] <c7p> i think this meeting is formal too
[21:56] <godbyk> rickfosb: I think that'd be a good idea.
[21:57] <rickfosb> godbyk agree, there are too few of us today to make this particular change.  I'll work up a nice letter and state our case.
[21:58] <hannie> I think for an important decision like this we have to get as many people as possible together
[21:58] <c7p> whatever
[21:58] <godbyk> c7p: feeling ambivalent, too? :-)
[21:59] <rickfosb> c7p  what would you like?
[21:59] <hannie> ambivalent = do not know ;)
[21:59] <godbyk> Shall we set a meeting for next weekend to take a formal vote?
[21:59] <godbyk> hannie: ambivalent: Having mixed feelings or contradictory ideas about something
[21:59] <c7p> nah,i agree we have to talk about the core/function of the project
[22:00] <godbyk> hannie: or "I don't care"
[22:00] <c7p> im sure that even if we have to vote on a formal meeting others will agree on this
[22:00] <rickfosb> is next weekend enought time?
[22:00] <rickfosb> I'll put the poll into the letter to the mailing list if you want
[22:00] <godbyk> rickfosb: Probably.  I don't see a lot of point in dragging out.  The sooner we can make a decision the sooner we can either get natty released or move on to oneiric.
[22:01] <godbyk> rickfosb: that's a good idea.
[22:01] <rickfosb> ok, c7p hannie?
[22:01] <hannie> next weekend fine with me
[22:01] <c7p> even tomorrow is fine for me :P
[22:01] <hannie> I am away from sept21-oct3
[22:02] <c7p> i think we can set a poll that will close mid week
[22:02] <rickfosb> ok, I'll work up an email with a meeting poll and agenda... you guys get some sleep, its still early here
[22:02] <rickfosb> Sure!
[22:02] <c7p> the options could be: continue natty, not continue
[22:02] <c7p> then we can see the subject of the next meeting
[22:02] <hannie> thanks, rickfosb, godbyk, c7p
[22:03] <hannie> see you all next time
[22:03] <godbyk> thanks for staying up late, hannie and c7p!
[22:03] <rickfosb> thanks guys!
[22:03] <c7p> hannie: cya
[22:03] <hannie> You're welcome
[22:03] <godbyk> #endmeeting
[22:03] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:03.
[22:04] <c7p> rickfosb godbyk do you need me for anything ?
[22:04] <godbyk> c7p: I don't at the moment.  You should get some sleep! :)
[22:05] <rickfosb> No c7p, I'm just reading the notes
[22:05] <c7p> oke
[22:05] <rickfosb> I do appreciate your help
[22:05] <c7p> good evening
[22:05] <rickfosb> both of you
[22:05] <c7p> thx
[22:05] <rickfosb> good evening
[22:05] <c7p> send me mail for whatever you need
[22:05] <rickfosb> yes sir
[22:05] <godbyk> thanks, c7p!
[22:06] <rickfosb> I always do!!!1
[22:06] <godbyk> heh
[22:06] <rickfosb> :)
[22:06] <rickfosb> i'd better get a beverage... this needs to be cogent..  (laugh)
[22:07] <godbyk> rickfosb: ha!
[22:07] <godbyk> rickfosb: btw, here are some of the notes that humphreybc and I made eons ago about creating a new website for the ubuntu manual project: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-support-and-learning-center
[22:08] <godbyk> I think that the Ask Ubuntu site may cover some of this ground now, but the manual/wiki editing stuff is probably still valid.
[22:08] <rickfosb> k thanks,  I'm looking at the help site as well... want to see what they publish
[22:09] <rickfosb> I think if we had a larger audience, and a place to work (google docs, is ok, but ... not) we could get a lot more done
[22:10] <rickfosb> especially, if we could still output to printed matter...
[22:10] <rickfosb> have a good one godbyk,  I'm going to wander off for a few...
[22:10] <godbyk> see ya later, rickfosb.