[12:44] there's still quite a bit of stuff to try to fix for oneiric which we also talked about in the last meeting [12:44] if i made a blueprint to give it some organization would people still be interested in getting it done [12:44] astraljava: shnatsel holstein falktx scott-work ? [12:45] hmm? [12:45] i think this still includes icons, finding and implementing a theme, testing menu & lightdm fix, xubuntu session as default [12:46] shnatsel: the two sentences before i pinged people [12:46] lightdm - on my radar, needed both for elementary and US [12:46] scott-work: are the menu and lightdm packages updated in the repos now? [12:46] scott-work: live dvd builds - totally undocumented and build system just changed [12:47] scott-work: I can't set it up locally because there are no docs [12:47] scott-work: the blueprint about docs: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-o-live-build [12:47] scott-work: also needed for UGR and elementary [12:47] shnatsel: WOAH! either i had a dream or i really read this, but it seemed like i found out how to do the seed building thing [12:48] you just made me kinda remember this (must have been a dream then) [12:48] scott-work: the system I was aware of is obsolete [12:48] ah [12:48] scott-work: they changed it to debian-live [12:48] falktx: i don't know, i was waiting for astraljava to poke me when it was done [12:49] scott-work: they were using https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/debian-cd/ubuntu [12:49] i also gave him the new package names to include in the seeds per our meeting and mailing list discussion [12:49] scott-work: but now they're using debian-live, UGR guy did a nice research on that: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ugr-live/+spec/ugr-live-build [12:50] scott-work: the menu fix is not pushed to the repos yet :( [12:50] scott-work: I pinged infinity (the assignee) about blueprint status, no luck [12:51] shnatsel: would you be available to help resolve either the 'xubuntu as default session' issue or the 'get icons working in oneiric' issue? [12:51] i _think_ i have a line on the default xubuntu session fix [12:51] i had done something similar with 'ubuntu classic' vs 'ubuntu' (i.e. gnome-panel vs unity) [12:51] scott-work: default session [12:51] scott-work: I know how to fix it [12:52] scott-work: don't worry [12:52] shnatsel: cool and sweetness :) [12:52] scott-work: I have all the info from the horse's mouth [12:52] lol, which horse? [12:52] scott-work: didrocks [12:52] he does rock, he was the one who helped me before as well [12:52] very cool dude [12:52] yes [12:52] very patient with some as ignorant about that stuff as i was [12:53] scott-work: what can I do to help right now? [12:53] falktx: do you think you can help with getting the icons up and running well along with helping with the theme issues? [12:53] ah, icons [12:54] scott-work: let me push the code and see what's missing [12:54] falktx: also when we start getting a website demo created and working can you help with researching iframes and see if we can pull the wiki information into the website? [12:54] thanks both shnatsel and falktx [12:55] as soon as astraljava pushes code i'm waiting to test [12:55] yes [12:55] scott-work: knome is working on the site, right? [12:56] scott-work: If I were you, I'd just use elementary or some other decent pre-made theme. Xubuntu and lubuntu already use variations of it, + ubuntu uses a variation of elementary icons. [12:56] shnatsel: is the elementary theme in launchpad and in the official repos? otherwise we can't use them :( [12:56] scott-work: of course in official repos [12:56] even better :) [12:57] falktx: did you see what shnatsel said about the elementary theme/icons ? [12:57] ^^^ [12:57] scott-work: they also have lots of XFCE symlinks [12:57] scott-work: what's so bad about the current US icon theme? [12:57] scott-work: I'm not sure if it's sufficient though [12:58] falktx: if you switch to elementary icons, you get XFCE symlinks for free, + consistency with other ubuntu flavours [12:58] oh, sorry...are we talking about the theme or the icon set? i might be confusing myself and everyone else [12:59] the elementary xfwm theme might be not in ubuntu repos yet (I haven't checked tbh) [13:00] what about oxygen icons? [13:00] (the ones from kde) [13:00] falktx: i'm not opposed to the ubuntu studio theme or icon set, i just want something that will be easy to implement and maintain at this point [13:01] scott-work: btw, here's how kx theme looks like - http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr017.png [13:02] well, that's KDE [13:02] falktx: which theme is that? [13:02] mine [13:02] kx theme, sorry i see that in the text now [13:02] shnatsel: not just kde, it's kde, qt4, gtk2 and qt3 [13:02] falktx: is that in the ubuntu repos? otherwise we can't directly use it [13:03] scott-work: the required dependencies are (qtcurve), we would just need the config [13:03] but I guess this is too much dark for most people [13:05] it's great to have a brand, some visual element that immediate designates who and what we are, but some of the releases have been shite (IMO) [13:05] and it's kinda weird to have a good looking release that is falling apart and not performing as well as it could [13:06] scott-work: is this the branch - https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-icon-theme/UbuntuStudio ? [13:06] i'm not dictating which theme we go for but i'd rather invest the time into fixing things and using an existing theme that is just simple and clean and even gray everywhere [13:06] falktx: yes, i believe that is [13:07] falktx: let me get an example of what i'm talking about [13:07] look at the third screenshot: http://ubuntu-art.org/content/show.php/Ambiance+dark?content=132875 [13:07] i think we've seen this before [13:08] but dont' focus on any one particular feature or color.... [13:08] i'm not saying "steal this color" or "use this decoration" [13:08] gee, ugly [13:08] what i'm saying is that this is clean and elegant...simple and direct [13:08] really? [13:08] yes, it all looks the same [13:09] it might look cool in the first instance, but I seriously believe you'll get tired of that theme pretty quick [13:09] no colors... [13:10] i'm not worried about colors so much, i don't think one of the goals for ubuntu studio is to provide a beautiful desktop but rather an extremely functional desktop that gets out of the way and allows user to create [13:10] to pervert a shuttleworth saying "beauty is not a feature" [13:10] if we get beauty as well, that's great then :) [13:11] scott-work: let me try and check what can be done about the icons [13:11] falktx: okay, but just to make the point, i wouldn't necessarily oppose the kx theme as it has many of the qualities i describe as desirable [13:12] although the only thing i would immediate suggest is the differentiate between the black background and the black windows more [13:12] scott-work: the problem with dark themes is that many apps don't repect them, so some text becames unreadable [13:12] falktx: very true [13:13] some of my thoughts have been revolving around a light gray and slighly dark gray theme [13:13] scott-work: the difference should be visible with a brighter shadow [13:13] from what i've seen of elementary, i like it [13:14] falktx: look at the 'midori' page here: http://elementaryos.org/discover [13:14] i'm not suggesting we replicate this, but that window dressing is amost clinically clean and simple [13:14] ok [13:15] scott-work: so, do you prefer to keep the US icon, fixed for xfce, or use a new one? [13:15] sorry falktx, i'm probably confusing you with all this :) [13:15] hm? [13:16] falktx: my completely main and overriding concern right now is finding the easiest to implement and maintain at this moment [13:16] confusing = describing very intangible (and sometimes seemingly contrary) qualities about a desktop theme [13:17] without actually telling you what it looks like [13:17] scott-work: we should just get a working theme for now [13:17] absolutely [13:17] scott-work: next release, I truly believe qtcurve should be used [13:17] no more cross-desktop problems [13:17] falktx: i say let's head that direction at that time then [13:20] shnatsel: can you help me understand a little more about elementary? [13:20] scott-work: let me post some screens using qtcurve. [13:20] http://kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/112688-1.png [13:21] scott-work: sure, what do you want to know? [13:21] falktx: that has some very pleasing qualities [13:21] shnatsel: looking at the 'midori' page on the http://elementaryos.org/discover page... [13:22] http://kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/126954-1.jpg [13:22] shnatsel: the window dressings on midori make me want to understand how it was accomlished [13:22] shnatsel: is elementary a complete DE? is it based on XFCE? [13:24] scott-work: elementary is a name of the project. It produces a DE called Pantheon, that is based on some GNOME libraries. It also uses some GNOME components while they work well or we don't have the manpower to replace them. [13:24] i'm sorry, i now remember you talking about pantheon [13:24] we also have a DE-independent desktop shell [13:24] Pantheon Shell [13:25] you might include some of that information in the 'discover' pages somewhere or is it there and i didn't see it? [13:25] we generally follow the principle that our apps should be as DE-independent as possible, if it doesn't hurt the UX [13:25] scott-work: it might be in the journal [13:26] ah [13:26] scott-work: all this stuff is in development [13:26] oh, shnatsel , have you considered how you will make changes to the ubuntu studio code for the session fix? [13:26] scott-work: elementary OS v0.2 "Luna" has been postponed to 12.04, but the shell and other apps probably will be released earlier [13:26] i don't believe you are part of the ubuntustudio-devel team [13:27] scott-work: I'll just upload the code somewhere and give you a link :) [13:27] cool [13:27] shnatsel: would you like to be on the ubuntustudio-devel team? [13:27] scott-work: no idea [13:29] shnatsel: we can talk about it further if you are interested, just let me know [13:30] scott-work: do you have a package that ships your default settings? [13:30] yes...hold on a sec [13:30] https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio [13:31] wow, a project... [13:31] OK [13:31] I'll base off that thing then [13:31] falktx: i'm sorry, but to clarify, are you working on the icon set and the theme as well? [13:31] shnatsel: i'm not sure a understand, are you saying there is a lot of work to do or that it's a lot of code? [13:32] scott-work: i'm trying to find the missing symlinks [13:32] ah, okay :) [13:32] brb [13:33] why doesn't he just grab elementary theme, nautilus, and ctrl+f "xfce" ? [13:33] that should do it [13:33] or better, some native XFCE theme [13:35] scott-work: from elementary you might be also interested in http://danrabbit.deviantart.com/art/Desktop-Log-In-251559180 [13:35] scott-work: but that's for 12.04 [13:37] shnatsel: that looks nice! [13:37] very svelte [13:37] shnatsel: i don't know why falktx doesn't do what you are suggesting [13:37] scott-work: especially in comparison with ubuntu's plain login screen [13:37] part of the problem is that i'm so ignorant about so many aspects of this still :( [13:38] the coding time i've spent has been to fix stuff that ubuntu has "broken" and just generaly upkeep [13:38] i've done almost no theming or messing with icon sets [13:39] i recognize that blue haried girl from scott pilgrim [13:39] I don't [13:39] hi all [13:40] scott-work: I don't see the US wallpapers on xfce configs [13:41] hi craigs63 , i'm going to respond to your email someday :P really! [13:42] no worries, it turned into more of an essay than it should've [13:42] falktx: shnatsel was suggesting grabing the elementary theme, nautilius, and ctrl+f "xfce" or use a native XFCE theme, does that make sense? [13:42] scott-work: yes [13:43] i like essays, most of my emails and posts and blogs turn into them which is why i end up doing so few of them it seems :/ [13:43] that gives all the symlinks at once [13:43] sudo updatedb && locate xfce | grep /path/to/some/xfce/theme [13:43] shnatsel: yes, then maybe we can change the icons a bit, added the US logos and whatnot [13:44] falktx: if you're speaking of elementary, of course you can [13:44] scott-work: I agree with shnatsel [13:45] falktx: ubuntu did it, xubuntu did it, lubuntu did it [13:45] falktx: good! because i don't really still understand all this [13:46] scott-work: am I ok to make this change then? [13:48] falktx: sure :) [13:48] we need a working theme and icon set [13:49] scott-work: I can work the icons [13:49] scott-work: the theme already works fine [13:51] it's missing a gtk3 variant though [13:51] scott-work: which engine does the US theme uses? [13:52] i think it used to be metacity but i can't be sure right now [13:52] nah, the theme engine, not deco [13:52] i don't know then and i'm not sure who would know right now [13:52] deco is metacity yes, but the theme itself, what is it? [13:52] I'll check it then [13:52] would the -desktop seed have it? [13:53] looks like murrine [13:53] 133 * gtk2-engines # DanielHolbach (gtk2-engines were merged into one package) 134 * gtk2-engines-murrine # UbuntuStudio's theme. 135 * tango-icon-theme 136 * tango-icon-theme-common [13:53] from the -desktop seed [13:55] is murrine being ported to gtk3 yet? [13:55] falktx: yes [13:55] falktx: uh... [13:55] falktx: no, it won't be ported [13:55] falktx: the guy who wrote murrine writes Unico for GTK3 [13:55] falktx: cimi [13:56] falktx: he's employed by canonical [13:56] i saw some ubuntu package... [13:56] nah, it's empty [13:56] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk3-engines-murrine [13:56] falktx: ambiance uses murrine for gtk2 and unico for gtk3 [13:57] falktx: same for elementary gtk [13:57] shnatsel: but theme would need to be ported [13:57] falktx: there's no such option [13:58] hm? [13:59] falktx: there's no murrine for gtk3 [13:59] falktx: there's unico which is murrine with CSS syntax and cooler features [14:00] shnatsel: yes, so it needs porting to work on gtk3 [14:00] (the us theme) [14:00] falktx: porting or replacement [14:01] shnatsel: if we port it, will it still work on gtk2? [14:02] falktx: you'll have to provide 2 different GTK themes under one DE theme [14:02] falktx: one for gtk2 and one for gtk3 [14:02] sucks [14:02] falktx: c'est la vie [14:03] would finding and using an XFCE theme be easier to do? [14:03] scott-work: it won't help [14:03] ah, okay [14:03] scott-work: XFCE engine won't work for GTK3 [14:03] AFAIK [14:04] XFCE is still GTK2, ugh [14:04] i wonder what engine xubuntu is using [14:04] scott-work: xfce [14:04] heh, didn't know there was an xfce engine [14:05] i remember reading something about compositing by default wiht their engine though [14:05] didn't need metacity or something or other because of it [14:05] scott-work: that's window manager [14:05] scott-work: xfwm can do compositing, metacity also can and e17 rocks at it [14:05] scott-work: the US theme is just fine for xfce [14:06] scott-work: the problem is gtk3 apps. but that not even qtcurve handles right now [14:06] shnatsel: gtk3 still have a hedious default theme! [14:06] errrg [14:06] falktx: if you want consistency, AFAIK you have 4 theming options: [14:06] scott-work: let me know if i can test any UI elements folks [14:07] 1) Adwaita (has a GTK2 port) [14:07] 2) Ambiance [14:07] im behind whatever you guys choose asthetically [14:07] 3) Radiance [14:07] 4) elementary [14:07] yikes [14:07] gtk3 kinda sucks [14:08] * falktx tries to build murrine-gtk3-git [14:08] also dAwaita [14:09] I need a gtk3 app... [14:09] falktx: compile widgetgallery [14:10] shnatsel: latest murrine-gtk3 builds and install [14:10] falktx: or the new twf [14:10] ah? [14:10] falktx: I guess it hardly works - it's not supported by cimi [14:10] falktx: the widget factory was finally ported to gtk3 [14:15] ah, gnome3 stuff don't work at all in xfce [14:15] even with the proper settings [14:16] in order for gtk3 to work on non-gnome DEs, seems like 'gnome-settings-daemon' is needed [14:16] shnatsel: do you confirm this^ ? [14:16] falktx: no idea [14:17] shnatsel: I just installed gnome-tweak-tool, but it doesn't make/change anything [14:17] theme is just ugly as win95 was [14:17] falktx: sure [14:18] falktx: not sure about environments, but in GNOME it needs the settings daemon [14:18] falktx: when it crashes, everything goes win95 [14:18] shnatsel: explain me please - isn't gtk3 != gnome3 ? [14:18] then why gtk3 depends on gnome? [14:19] gtk3 != gnome 3 [14:19] returns true [14:19] IDK, GTK2 requires the settings daemon too [14:19] yes [14:20] it seems like gtk3 is still the same shit as gtk2 was, no offense [14:20] falktx: you prefer Qt? [14:20] as time goes by, I'm happy I choose qt for development [14:20] yes [14:20] shnatsel: I also like JUCE [14:21] falktx: what about EFL? [14:21] wtf is that? [14:22] falktx: enlightenment foundation libraries [14:23] falktx: enlightnenment WM provides smooth compiz-like animations (e.g. workspace switching) on 10-year-old PCs with no 3D [14:23] falktx: and the foundation libs do the same for GUIs [14:23] shnatsel: is it a toolkit like Qt? [14:24] falktx: a toolkit like GTK+, Qt is a rather bloated framework [14:24] that's why I love juce [14:24] demo scrernshot - http://dspfilterscpp.googlecode.com/files/dspfiltersdemo.png [14:24] shnatsel: I can build JUCE static in 40 secs [14:25] and it provides full blown c++ classes, cross-desktop [14:25] GPL too [14:25] falktx: JUCE doesn't look user-friendly [14:25] depends on what you do with it [14:26] you can just subclass some juce stuff and add more functionality [14:26] falktx: what I care about is simplicity and consistency, not more functionality [14:27] juce it's more used for audio stuff though [14:27] shnatsel: take it this way - juce provides you (freely) some cross-platform c++ classes to base your work with. you can then remove/add stuff as you need [14:28] it's like building a webpage from a template [14:30] falktx: yeah, I get the idea [14:34] scott-work: hm, can't we just depend on elementary and override a couple of icons? [14:38] sure...is this easy to implement and maintain? [14:40] scott-work: yes, no doubt [14:40] I guess it's goodbye old icons! [14:41] then if it doesn't look like with complete shite (and i don't think that will be the case) then let's do it :) [14:41] the old icons don't do any good if half of the theme is broken though [14:41] i think cory is going to shit when he hears but nothing is getting done otherwise currently [14:41] * holstein waves good-bye to old icons [14:41] lol holstein [14:42] scott-work: o/ [15:02] falktx: does this mean that the icons and theme will be resolved (at least for oneiric) ? [15:02] shnatsel: when do you think you will have the code for the default xubuntu session ? [15:02] scott-work: no idea [15:02] scott-work: maybe tomorrow [15:03] within a week would be fine as well, i just want to make sure things are progressing so we're not at beta2 and still working through this [15:03] scott-work: I think it's already done (by me here) [15:03] I'm testing [15:03] falktx: exeptional ! [15:06] scott-work: it works! [15:07] scott-work: I can push (which will delete all old icons)... [15:09] falktx: i believe we can still get the old icons from previous version of the code [15:09] yes, indeed [15:09] * falktx pushes [15:09] yay! [15:10] scott-work: done [15:10] want a deb? [15:10] falktx: not right now, but after i get home i might :) [15:11] anyway, save the link for later [15:11] http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/ubuntustudio-icon-theme_0.12_all.deb [15:12] holstein: shnatsel: wanna test ^ ? [15:12] * falktx opens a bug [15:13] let me check on the state of my 11.10 install of xubuntu [15:14] wait. I think I did lightdm stuff already. [15:19] falktx: let me update this install, bring it current [15:19] falktx: send link to myself in email, will test when i get home [15:20] does this just replace the icons or does it update the theme as well? [15:20] icons only [15:22] roger that [15:22] * falktx is happy to help again [15:23] scott-work: so now we just need the final seeds, tweaks, and a xfce deco theme [15:23] oh, and website [15:25] falktx: you are indespensable! [15:25] i don't think we will have the website ready for oneiric release though... [15:25] yeah? [15:25] in what way scott-work ? [15:26] my argument is, the current one is ready for nothing [15:26] its old, out of date and broken [15:26] even if knome already had a new site ready (just saying, no pressure, not trying to push ;) ) we would still need to get stuff through canonical [15:26] holstein: this would include a few steps [15:26] even if the new one just looked good, i think it would be an improvement [15:26] 1. we would need to push new code to the bzr branch [15:27] scott-work: you are against pushing what we have? [15:27] no [15:27] we would have access to go in and tweak links for ISO's and whatnot right? [15:27] but if knome can replicate it and even enhance it then we're better off [15:27] holstein: i could go in and probably tweak what we have for the short time [15:28] holstein: hold on a minute and let me explain [15:28] sure [15:28] take your time :) [15:28] when the site is ready to "go live" there's still numerous steps invovled... [15:28] 1. we push code to bzr branch [15:28] yeah, i bet [15:28] i was just thinking it might be ready to go [15:29] 2. we file an RT ticket [15:29] 3. someone at canonical sets up a staging site [15:29] 4. IS (internal security?) reviews the code and plugins we want and if approved pushes to the site [15:30] 5. i am unclear what is required during staging area cycle but aftwards i expect it to get pushed to official site [15:30] i've already started talking to pleia2 since she helped xubuntu with their site (which apparently is still int he staging cycle) [15:30] but this process may take months [15:31] therefore allowing knome several weeks to make a more complete website isn't really much in the whole schedule [15:31] okay, i'm done :) [15:32] as long as knome keeps developing the website we should be better off without much more work [15:32] and i feel having someone involved who has already been down this route would benefit getting the right stuff pushed to the bzr branch [15:33] scott-work: we can safely update the current website anytime though, right? [15:33] holstein: i should add that i believe knome is basically replicating what jorge did minus perhaps the flash stuff (although he might be able to reimplement this in html5?) [15:33] falktx: i supposedly have access to webiste now so i should be able to do simple edits and such [15:34] ah, good [15:34] I need to learn how to make a xfce deco theme now [15:34] perhaps even create new pages, although this is unproven yet, and i don't know how restricted the security is for me as an "admin" whatever title i will have [15:34] sure, i just think we should put a date on this [15:34] i mean, its been *years* of that site being dead [15:35] i think it should be like in 2 weeks, whatever that is gets sent in [15:35] otherwise we could just wait and wait for perfection [15:35] and id like to shoot for 'better' right now, and get to 'perfect' later :) [15:37] holstein: i don't expect that we will be able to control the schedule once we are filing the RT ticket and staging [15:37] sure, and thats fine [15:37] however, i will follow up with knome about what schedule he feels he can devlier and the scope [15:38] but i would certainly be willing to wait three or four weeks to get a better and more expansive website (especially if we can't add pages) [15:38] sure, and i guess what im saying is, im not sure if im willing [15:39] id like to have this pre 11.10 [15:39] but, i feel like it wont take much waiting, and we'll be missing 12.04 [15:39] and that would sux [15:40] i'm not sure even if we already had a site and the RT ticket filed we could make 11.10 :( [15:40] sure [15:40] let's ask charlie about the timeline for his experiences [15:40] and thats the way it is [15:41] the drop dead date is absolutely for the LTS [15:41] thats something i can do too [15:41] but i certainly don't want to wait that long though [15:41] just pester someone daily about it [15:41] :) you could [15:41] * scott-work actually smiled when you typed that [15:41] hehe [15:42] will bad things happen if i install ubuntustudio-desktop? [15:43] is that XFCE now? [15:43] i bet i have to RTFM to see how to apply an icon theme in XFCE [15:51] holstein: it might depend on whether the changes have been pushed to the bzr branches and whether the packages have been rebuilt overnight [15:51] almost forgot [15:51] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-icon-theme/+bug/846483 [15:51] Launchpad bug 846483 in ubuntustudio-icon-theme (Ubuntu) "icons do not play nice with XFCE" [Undecided,New] [15:52] scott-work: holstein: please mark as "affects me" [15:52] astraljava: can you do your magic there^ ? [15:52] falktx: what do you want astraljava to do? [15:52]