=== winut_ is now known as winut === testguy349687369 is now known as Tohuw === Tohuw is now known as Guest9413 === Guest70407 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest72591 [00:38] hi, so im looking at 11.10 Additional Drivers and I see two AMD drivers to install [00:38] the first one says 2D display drivers and the second one says 2d & 3D. but what's the real difference? [00:39] do i get both? [00:42] xsacha: obviously, one of them will provide you with 3D acceleration. useful for running desktop effects and games [00:43] well the first one says 2D and opengl acceleration (which would be 3D). [00:43] and they are both proprietary drivers. not sure what the first one is meant to be [00:44] Even the opensource driver provides 3D hardware acceleration. So is there 3 different drivers now? Or is jockey listing opensource drivers as well? [00:45] and..? [00:45] no, you cannot have both active at the same time.. try out.. let us know [00:46] i'm just wondering what the first one is [00:46] if it's not opensource and it's not the ATI/AMD one .. what is 'Video driver for the AMD graphics accelerator' [00:47] it is a known bug(?).. no one seems to be exactly sure what's with that really [00:48] oh ok [00:48] thx [00:48] i have not enabled anything so i assume i must be using the opensource one, which does have limited 3D capabilities [00:50] runs the desktop effects well enough (like blur) [00:51] (i have radeon hd5450 here) [00:51] 5650 here [00:52] works well with unity2d.. but i have no problems with unity3d either [00:53] kinda confusing, i agree [00:54] i'm mostly concerned about the opensource driver's battery-life though [00:55] laptop only goes for 1.5 hours :( P.S. when i come back from hibernate (due to dead battery), the battery life is stuck on 0% even though charge is increasing. it finally changed when charge got to 80% [00:56] well.. yer in time for some testing then [00:58] perhaps you could file a bug against power management on lauchpad if you are so inclined [00:59] k [01:00] you need to register and all that, but one could learn a few things about how opensource works as well, and it's free [01:04] how would i switch to classical gnome? [01:04] instead of unity [01:04] corecode, at the login scree, [01:04] screen [01:04] what do i select? [01:04] Ubuntu 2D? [01:05] corecode, click your user then hit the popup actually in Oneiric thre is no classic [01:05] ahem.. there is only unity and unity2D for fallback, if you want 'classic gnome' you're going to have to use something else [01:05] there [01:06] gnomie: what does that mean? [01:06] that means beta1 doesnt offer what you want [01:06] all gnome packages got removed? [01:06] 11.04 might still have 'classic gnome' option [01:07] it does [01:08] but that's just a matter of which session manager i use, no? [01:08] this channel is for discussion of 11.10 only though.. [01:08] exactly [01:08] i am on 11.10 [01:10] Natty has classic [01:11] yes, yes [01:11] but i am on oneiric [01:11] classic gnome NOT available under oneiric [01:12] so there is fluxbox and fvwm2, but no classic gnome? [01:12] that's odd [01:13] you can install what you will.. that's on you though [01:14] do you know what i'd need for that? [01:14] luck [01:14] how so? [01:29] aptitude doesn't seem to register the "(F)orget new packages" [01:29] every time i quit aptitude they pop up again === Guest72591 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest71085 === Pilif12p is now known as [^_^] === [^_^] is now known as Pilif12p [02:01] hm, that didn't work at all. Installed proprietary drivers and it couldn't recognise my video card and stuck me in 2d mode. [02:02] So i uninstalled fgkrx in jockey ->remove. But now the opensource drivers aren't working:( === chris_ is now known as Guest13289 === Guest71085 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest80476 === Guest80476 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest94709 [04:32] Some questions, what "Online accounts" does, looks promising and i get to sing on my google account but i can't see the difference, secondly what is the default calendar app for oneiric? === Guest94709 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest71068 [04:43] allu2: there's a small amount of info at https://live.gnome.org/Design/SystemSettings/OnlineAccounts basically it will allow [04:44] for easy setup of your apps with your online accounts, only Google was turned on so far, but Twitter & Facebook are planned [04:45] and there is no included calendar app in 11.10, you can install lightning in Software Center to extended Thunderbird, or you can just use Evolution [04:45] Evolution still integrates into the clock menu if you install it === Guest71068 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest26904 === Guest26904 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest51914 [07:28] What was the predecessor of rsyslogd? [07:36] Hello, anyone tried using bluetooth under gnome-shell ? === Guest51914 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest54588 [07:37] AntAnt: I have once tried it successfully in Ubuntu 11.10 Alpha. [07:39] s/AntAnt/AnAnt/ [07:47] jbicha: ? === Guest54588 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest25697 === Guest25697 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest74250 === Guest74250 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest50282 === rigved is now known as Guest80315 [09:42] hi, guys can anyone advise on how i can get some traction on this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/774385 so i can use my sd card reader again :) [09:42] Launchpad bug 774385 in linux (Ubuntu) "dell studio 1749 sd reader not working " [Undecided,Confirmed] === LjL-Temp` is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest55684 [09:45] When I attempted to upgrade from 11.04 to 11.10 using a CDRW burnt using the 64-bit alternative image (ubuntu-11.10-beta1-alternate-amd64.iso), I get errors indicating that the i386 package files can't be read , and the upgrade aborts. The Package.gz files are 20 byes, and gzip reports a zero-length uncompressed file. Is this a known bug with the 64-bit ISO for beta1? If it is new, what package should I log the bug against, and h [09:46] it still relevant in 11.10 i updated yesterday to test it, [09:47] timfrost, is the Natty a 32 bit? [09:47] urlin2u: no. 64-bit. [09:48] timfrost, 1386 is 32 bit [09:49] i386 [09:51] urlin2u: the ISO has the 64-bit main and restricted packages in the pool/.... tree, but has these empty 32-bit i386 Package.gz files as well [09:53] I can only say that makes no sense lol [09:54] not doubting you but a alternative 64 bit with files so it can't work is well starnge. [09:55] Is there a "I can't find X" FAQ for Oneiric? [09:57] urlin2u: recent announcements indicate that the 64-bit systems should now have 'built-in support' for installing 32-bit applications. I wonder if this is intended to be a step towards getting the 32-bit compatibility libraries onto the 64-bit CD [09:58] timfrost, not sure you have alink for that info. [09:59] urlin2u: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricOcelot/TechnicalOverview/Beta1#Improved_handling_of_32-bit_compatibility_on_amd64_systems [10:03] rbasak: that is one of the references that I have seen. There are others in the mailing lists as well. [10:05] timfrost, hard to say I never upgrade myself, it would be strange for this to be the case in this part of development, but anything is possible I guess. [10:06] urlin2u: I will take my original question to the development discussion mailing list, or maybe to the devel IRC channel [10:07] rbasak: what is your problem? [10:07] I have a suggestion, presently nautilus gksu when applied to opening a file normally opened by gedit will open said file plus an empty file, I believe its due to the %U associated with gedit.desktop as a default, this issue did not occur in 11.04, perhaps there is a simple solution? [10:07] timfrost, yeah go for it. :D [10:08] timfrost: the one that comes to mind right now is that my laptop goes to standby on lid close. There used to be an option to disable this under power settings, but now there isn't [10:08] * rbasak has failed to find a bug on this [10:08] (but I'm not sure if it's a bug or there's been a decision to move or change how this works) [10:11] Just received a partial update regarding compiz,It tries to remove compiz,compiz-gnome,or even ubuntu-desktop and unity but update compiz-core and compiz-plugins-default and decoration lib [10:12] knightstalker: I have that too [10:13] Aha,I hope this thing goes away,last time I was idiot enough to let it ruin my installation [10:13] rbasak: you want the laptop lid to be ignored? [10:13] Thanks rbasak,for confirming =) [10:13] rbasak: I am not sure either. I don't run Ubuntu on a laptop (several desktop or tower PC models which aren't good references for behaviour of a laptop won't count here) so I can't offer any meaningful advice [10:14] almoxarife: yes, I do! My laptop sometimes crashes on resume from suspend, but also as a developer I often have background stuff going and network connections open that I don't want closed. [10:15] rbasak: look at the last line of /etc/UPower/UPower.conf [10:16] almoxarife: thanks, I'll try that. Although I do want the system to lock on lid close, it'll be a good enough workaround. [10:20] Last time when I install KDE desktop on Ubuntu 11.10(I had unity and Gnome shell installed),I broke my system,any known bugs about that? [10:21] I do not have more information,but the system didn't boot and the last thing on the screen was 'Checking battery state [OK]" === Guest55684 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest59876 [10:58] So, after a failed upgrade I can get to a root prompt (from the recovery mode from grub) but I have no network (I chose the "root prompt with networking"). I have tried "ifup eth0" and have added "auto eth0 ... iface eth0 inet dhcp" to my /etc/network/interfaces. Any suggestions for getting it working? [10:59] I'm trying to get network so I can retry a dis-upgrade [11:01] huwshimi: Is the driver loaded for the eth card? [11:01] astraljava: hmm... I'm not sure. I guess it would be if it's showing up in "ifconfig" right? [11:02] huwshimi: I guess so too. Sorry, I have no idea, then. [11:02] astraljava: No problems :) [11:03] It's not showing an ip address though [11:07] ah added a static ip [11:08] can ping router but not google [11:10] gateway problem? or not finding the dns? What's in /etc/resolv.conf? [11:13] astraljava: Nothing (well a comment) [11:16] astraljava: Nevermind, just managed to get a gui and wireless :) [11:17] huwshimi: Sure. But I do think that you'd have needed an entry for dns server for pinging google. Tried using plain IP address? [11:18] astraljava: No, [11:18] astraljava: No, I didn't [11:19] astraljava: Thanks heaps for your help anyway [11:37] hiyas all [11:38] Hey === Guest59876 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest26680 [11:41] hi knightstalker...new kernel version this morning [11:41] Yeah,and now I am stuck with Partial Upgrade :p [11:42] reboot yet ? [11:42] sure [11:42] Rebooted once after kernel upgrade [11:42] BluesKaj,did you update your apt cache? [11:42] do a dist-upgrade [11:42] you don't have Partial upgrade? [11:43] nah thats not smart,its going to remove unity and ubuntu-desktop to begin with [11:43] no . I usually dist-upgrade right afterwards , the kernel didn't install with plain upgrade , only after dist [11:44] "Linux knightstalker 3.0.0-11-generic #17-Ubuntu SMP Fri Sep 9 17:44:13 UTC 2011 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux" [11:44] Kernel seems to be upgraded to me [11:44] remove unity and ubuntu-desktop ..? [11:45] Yeah,Synaptic says that new compiz update wants unity and ubuntu-desktop and dozen others to be removed :p [11:45] yup, looks like it is alright [11:45] hmm, so KDE does have some stability ...so far [11:46] Could never try it,when I installed KDE through repositories,my system broke :( [11:46] but Kubuntu from what I heard only has bluetooth issues [11:55] knightstalker, I think the bluetooth issue was fixed , but I don't use it so... [11:55] ;) [11:56] my wireless KB and mouse work fine tho [11:57] ok, power interruption scheduled for 8AM here , so I'm going to logoff for now [12:01] good afternoon [12:02] does xfce-panel can use global menu and/or the appmenu from canonical ? [12:17] hello. I've installed Gnome 3 in oneric nightly and whenever I reboot/log out it still logs me into Unity (auto-login) rather than remembering what I was using last. Is there a solution to this? If not, can I change the default? === Guest26680 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest16390 [12:51] Hello all! :) [12:52] Okay so I just did a reboot and after running updates yesterday and today... I now don't have regular Unity has a login option... just Unity 2d... anyone else have this issue? [13:00] mvo: hi, just stumbled over this problem in oneiric: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/687595 Any way to overcome this problem with i386 vs amd64 packages yet? [13:00] mvo: and welcome back, hope you had a great vacation! [13:02] TeTeT: I think there is a pending patch for this, I will upload a new apt today that hopefully fixes it [13:16] Hi all, I updated my system 2 days ago and since then lightdm fails to start. Anyone else getting this problem? [13:17] boot process stops on "checking battery state" === Guest16390 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest43108 [13:47] How do the DEB program packages libreoffice-core and libreoffice-core:386 differ? The associated descriptions are identical. [14:10] bullgard4: I don't think they should differ muchly, I'm only seeing differences in size, checksums, and the Architecture field of course. [14:14] Hello, is there a way to allow users to login without a password in LightDM (11.10) ? [14:23] miles: yes, you can most easily rip it from the live cd configuration [14:24] Hi I am trying to install ubuntu-11.10-beta1-server-i386 on my Dell Optiplex GX260 and the install stops after dhcpv6 have run during regular install. Is there a bug or something? [14:24] *not* autologin ? [14:24] miles: sorry, misunderstood then [14:32] miles: take a look here https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/accountsservice/+bug/815271 [14:32] Launchpad bug 815271 in accountsservice (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Cannot login if user account does not have a password" [High,Fix released] [14:32] Thanks [14:32] User does have a password, though :p [14:33] miles: so they have a password, but you don't want to use it for login? [14:33] yes. [14:33] miles: erm... why? :o) [14:33] could do that in GDM [14:34] that's a Media-Center specific session I wish to open that way (and the password still allows to elevate rights if needed) [14:34] miles: ah ok [14:34] miles: I'm not aware of any way to do that currently [14:35] miles: please raise a bug if there's not one that already describes your requirement [14:35] See that: http://productivegeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/user-password.png "don't ask for pw on login" [14:35] used to be in the user account settings === Guest43108 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest93010 [14:49] Hi all... trying to download updates in 11.10, keep getting error message "Failed to fetch... 404 Not Found" [14:50] Anyone else experiencing this? [14:51] syrinx_priest: Are you using a mirror? [14:53] hi [14:53] astraljava: Not that I'm aware of. Installed 11.10 in a VM and went to get updates. [14:53] somehow in gnome forced fallback i can't disable the menu bar in gnome-terminal [14:53] anybody seen that? [14:53] basically the terminal is created without menu bar [14:53] but then quickly adds the menu bar back [14:54] Heh, and of course now it's working fine. The power of IRC ;) Thx [14:54] syrinx_priest: Finnish mirror works. [14:54] Oh okay. :) [14:55] Thanks though astral! [14:55] NP. :) [14:57] hello i have a sony laptop with an i3-2310M CPU. ubuntu doesn't recognize my intel graphics card. [14:59] can somebody help me please? or is it probably a bug? [14:59] I have a general question about 11.10 usage... if this isn't the place then I apologize, please let me know. [14:59] When clicking the Dash and then choosing "More Apps", is a list of Apps supposed to show, as in 11.04? Or is it supposed to remain blank until you type something in the Search box? [15:03] i tried and it shows me apps syrinx_priest [15:04] Ah, interesting. Thanks for looking thotz! [15:08] 'more apps' is blank here too [unity2D] [15:10] on second look. all categories are blank. except 'find files' [15:13] then again, i have used 'find files' before. it be odd if it did not show cached files from previous searches [i guess]. [15:15] astraljava: If they did not differ, there was no need for two packages. [15:15] dash search isn't all that great really :-/ looks nice and all.. but falls short in execution [15:16] hi everyone. i am using the latest beta. i was using a app called workrave. one day it acted wierd, (the interface was blank). so, i killed it. then next day, i tried to start it again and i could not find it anywhere in the system. even software center says that there is no app named workrave. can anyone help? [15:16] bullgard4: Oh, hehe. :) Pardon me, I'm on an amd64 system. :D [15:16] so many search choices within it and yet cannot find a simple file i know exists in my /home [15:19] or maybe i suck at using dash search. which poses another question about actual usability [15:22] astraljava: Me too. [15:22] for example: shouldnt thunderbird show under 'internet apps'? [regardless of whether it already shows up front] [15:24] bullgard4: Well then, I don't understand what you're asking. On your system, they're identical? [15:24] yes. [15:24] size even? [15:24] No. [15:24] whoa.. something happened. typed 'thunder..' and it got populated [15:25] my guess is one is architecture independent the other is for 386 [15:25] but like I said I'm guessing [15:25] try asking on ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com [15:25] libreoffice maintainers for ubuntu ^ [15:27] IdleOne: I hate to subscribe to yet another mailing list just for solving a simple question. I am subscribed to ~20 Linux mailing lists. [15:27] Umm... if the package was arch independent, there wouldn't be packages for different archs, right? [15:28] probably [15:29] * astraljava is seriously confused now [15:29] At the moment, the amd64 version is 1:3.4.3-1ubuntu1, while the i386 version is 1:3.4.2-2ubuntu3. [15:30] i think the list should be populated with some kind of 'default' search to avoid confusion. specially in cases where new user doesnt know what to look for and is just 'exploring' the dash [15:32] when i press the more apps lense, am expecting to see more apps .. not a blank tab [15:33] bullgard4: subscribe, get your answer, unsubscribe :) [15:34] hm [15:37] I don't get it. How can the same package be arch independent for one arch, but not for another? By definition, that's not possible, is it? === Guest93010 is now known as LjL-Temp [15:42] perhaps thats my problem, that i look at the dash as a nautilus replacement, when it isn't. bummer. we should learn from how kde plasma for netbook does things, and apply that to the dash === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest27309 [15:42] but nuu.. there is this 'design paradigm' to cope with.. ugh [15:49] hi. whats the new name of the volume-manager? [15:50] i want to auto-mount my volumes on plug in a awesome session === eyes_ is now known as EyesIsServer === yofel_ is now known as yofel === Guest27309 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest58757 [16:48] hi everyone. i am using the latest beta. i had installed an app called workrave. one day it's interface got stuck. then next day, the app had disappeared from my system. software center reports that the app workrave does not exist. can anyone help me? [16:51] fine, i was wrong. now stuff is showing up in dash with a behaviour more or less predictable [after working it a bit]. still cannot find some files though. [16:51] !workrave [16:53] rigved: I show workrave in natty, but not in oneiric today [16:55] rigved, charlie-tca: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/workrave/+publishinghistory says it was deleted. [16:55] Wonder if that is oversight or intentional, since it was in the last three releases? [16:55] charlie-tca, Pici: thanks! [16:56] charlie-tca, Pici: but will removing it from the software repos also delete it from my computer? [16:56] If an update removed it, yes [16:56] i see workrave here in software center [about some RSI thing].. but when i go check 'more info' i get 'there is no package .. in your current software sources' .. oddly enough it shows 12 ratings though [16:57] so, you might need to add a repo for it(?) [16:57] charlie-tca: oh ok. i understood now. it must have been an update. [16:58] gnomie: yes. it was there in the beta 1 cd as well in natty. so, it has the ratings. [17:00] Looks like the most recent version of the package in Debian would have fixed the gnome 2 applet issue :. [17:00] :/ [17:00] http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/w/workrave/workrave_1.9.4-2/changelog [17:01] yes, i was reading the same page. so, should i try to directly install the debian version? [17:02] I'd bug the person who removed it from Ubuntu [17:02] Or file a bug [17:02] i say softwarecenter is at fault here [17:02] it shows misleading info [17:03] Pici: ok. i will file a bug. [17:07] makes me wonder if there are other instances of removed programs which still show up in softwarecenter [17:08] rigved: you should just file a sync request for workrave, see requestsync in ubuntu-dev-tools [17:08] assuming it has been ported to the new applet API [17:09] micahg: hmmm. ok. [17:09] gnomie: no need to file a bug against software-center, app-install-data-ubuntu gets regenerated every so often to fix things like this [17:10] rigved: ah, nevermind about the API, a sync request is fine [17:12] "program not found, but hey, it used to be good! 12 ratings averaging 4 stars!" .. hope you're right, jbicha [17:14] gnomie: yes, that info gets updated: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/app-install-data-ubuntu/+changelog [17:14] 'every so often' should change to 'more often' then [17:14] it's never a problem in the stable release since it's impossible to remove packages from the archives after release [17:14] micahg: yes, i am install ubuntu-dev-tools now. i will file the sync request then. [17:15] rigved: thanks [17:15] micahg: :) [17:16] jbicha: fair enough then [17:16] rigved: you should use -e also, it'll need a release team ACK since it's techinically a new package at this point, but that should be easy to get [17:18] i have another problem. my mic is not working. in alsamixer, i can see that capture is set to max. in pulseaudio volume meter, i can see internal audio and monitor for internal audio in the input field. monitor for internal audio causes the output sound to get recorded; whereas internal audio does nothing. can anyone help? [17:19] micahg: ah. ok. i will use that option. [17:23] sorry, that is pulseaudio volume control and not pulseaudio volume meter. === Guest58757 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest40611 [18:25] micahg: i have filed the sync request: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/848147 [18:25] Launchpad bug 848147 in Ubuntu "FFe: Sync workrave 1.9.4-1 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,New] [18:33] is there a bug or is my problem? i cannot access unity, but only unity-2d. my video card has accellerated drivers fully working [18:33] nvidia proprietary drivers [18:34] when i launch unity session, i only have wallpaper and no panels [18:35] no way to launch programs via alt-f2 === Guest40611 is now known as LjL-Temp === LjL-Temp is now known as Guest81457 [18:47] hi [18:48] there is no opie-client/opie-server in oneiric; is that on purpose? [19:01] does wine work on kubuntu 11.10? thanks [19:01] we are trying it with the experimental 3d driver atm [19:01] but nothing happens [19:06] i just installed oneiric [19:06] and i could use wine [19:06] but i just tried a simple thing === Guest70252 is now known as Dink [19:54] winut, the experimental driver doesn't work too well on my nvidia 8400gs , thought I'd mention that [19:54] fixed: installed user is not member of audio group = wine fails to load -> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1627558 please fix [19:55] thanks Blueskaj [20:01] oias [20:01] anyone has on hand the devel ML link for the Rolling release proposal? [20:02] you mean the 1 month release cycle? [20:02] yep [20:02] I'm in favor of a faster release cycle [20:02] it was a bug post, you can find it in ubuntu planet [20:03] bug=blog [20:03] but want to read if anyone addressed the support stuff [20:03] cause you will face other problems [20:03] jtaylor: I've read the blog post [20:03] still have a few comments to read [20:03] expected it to be addressed to the devel-discuss ML to at least raise awareness [20:03] OR ELSE its vaporade [20:04] not much [20:04] it was only "big" outside of ubuntu, at least thats my perception [20:04] FYI for others to know what I'm talking about http://netsplit.com/2011/09/08/new-ubuntu-release-process/ [20:05] the few reactions I saw all were along the line, the problem is true, the solution will hardly work in practice [20:05] it's a shame [20:05] i like all the people under the misimpression that keybuk musing about release processes means we're turning into a rolling release distro tomorrow or something [20:05] current cycle is PITA [20:06] I'm getting to the point I don't like it [20:06] rww: yes, a few outside devel are starting to think is was a decision [20:06] a big headline in a few new sites haven't helped [20:06] the blogosphere is annoying [20:08] ehe [20:08] so what most of you POV on this subject? [20:08] do you feel we need to be set free of the *hard* 6 month cycle? [20:08] besides the problems mentioned in the post I quite like the 6 month/2year cycle [20:08] where actualy only a few weeks are for conding [20:09] allows for having these horrobly broken pre alphas :) [20:09] where the pressure is to provide new features, even if unfinihed rather then fix bugs, stabilize code, and dedicate more time to a new project? [20:10] Debian does releases properly. Nobody agrees with me on this, but it's true :P [20:10] there are two sides here, that Mark and early founders must have addressed but probably now should be re-evaluated [20:10] that seems to be a canonical management problem [20:10] debian has a great model [20:10] the need for Ubuntu to be of 6 months [20:10] was to get to MASS users newer versions [20:10] release the damn thing when it's ready, instead of releasing something buggy after six months so you need to wait another three months or more for all the bugs to be fixed and it's usable by non-technical users [20:10] while the hard date would guarantee a known date to all [20:10] s/all/enough. [20:11] rww: I agree with you [20:11] and so does the blog post [20:11] as do many of the commenters [20:11] those that don't, are the ones doing *actual* support [20:12] nothing can be worse then having someone call you and you have to guess which OS version / Package they have [20:12] the rigid *release* allows for you to control that better [20:12] Umm, no, releases in general allow you to do that. Debian's as much as Ubuntu's. [20:12] *but* then limits _common_ users in the seak of new features [20:12] you will ahve many many clueless users of the rolling release making bug triaging harder ._. [20:13] just compare the quality of ubuntu bugs compared to debian bugs [20:13] Ubuntu is Debian with version number chasing these days. It's a bit sad. [20:13] although it's always been that to an extent [20:13] I have to agree with mozilla and google teams on ONE thing: [20:14] it doesn't matter which version you have, as long as it is the latest [20:14] in this day and age of *instant* anything , of _Cloud_ , etc [20:14] what matters for most users isn't that they have a package from 2 years ago [20:14] that thinking does not apply to distributions [20:15] and even SysAdmins that want _stable_ (which really is arcaic) server versions [20:15] are an ongoing minority [20:15] jtaylor: big question: "Why not?" [20:15] isn't and OS nothing more than what allows you to be connectable ? [20:15] has the "lets update compiz and remove unity" been fixed yet? [20:15] to enjoy your digital life? [20:16] you only need a latest browser for that [20:16] the OS is there just to provide HW support and ease the connection to files, memories, web, friends [20:16] the whole base can be very old [20:16] and that is provided via ppa's [20:16] jtaylor: and that's what most users do this days [20:16] but *we* don't give them the lastest browser even [20:16] keep in mind that once fta support suporting chromium [20:17] we will stop having updated versions. no one is picking up that.... for now [20:17] and thats how its supposed to be, so far I know ppa improvments are planed (= "official" ppas) [20:17] ok... but why does the base need to be old? [20:17] why can't it be *fresh*? [20:17] why does it need to be new? [20:17] why can't it receive updates *as soon* as they are available? [20:17] why can't it be monthly instead of 6 months or 2 y? [20:18] because updating core packages is a huge abmount of works riddled with many many issues [20:18] jtaylor: newer apps bring not only fixes but also newer features [20:18] and new bugs [20:18] jtaylor: it is only cause we are used to let them go along for very long time [20:18] monthly makes no sense [20:18] afraid to touch them, and when we do, we have to touch a lot of stuff [20:19] urlin2u: http://netsplit.com/2011/09/08/new-ubuntu-release-process/ [20:19] jtaylor: with more rapid releases , with more packages being updated, even core packages, I believe it wouldn't be that much of a pain [20:20] lets go a bit back to debian [20:20] debian has the 4 pockets [20:20] stable, testing, unstable, experimental [20:20] for anyone that has uses testing, they know it is rather stable, with lots of new features [20:21] FernandoMiguel, I looked that over at see these posts, whatever happens I will adapt to but the idea is a muse of now. [20:21] yes but its also slower than ubuntu [20:21] but our model, even with PPAs, can't get you that [20:21] many transitions are first done in ubuntu and then in debian [20:21] jtaylor: what is? stable releases? or experimental? [20:21] as ubuntu is allowed to be broken during alphas [20:21] debian should not be [20:21] if it can be avoided [20:22] nor should we breack stables [20:22] and I really like that [20:22] and we do... for many of them [20:22] I can't recall the last good stable ubuntu release [20:22] can you ? [20:22] its my oppinion that ubuntus current model helps making debian unstable/testing so great [20:22] and all our devel and non lts release are unfinished [20:22] jtaylor: LOL but we are aimed for our own users [20:23] not to make Debian great [20:23] or maybe we are, and I was fooled [20:23] maybe I should go back to debian testing [20:23] those goals can be archived at the same time [20:23] which is an idea getting stronger and stronger by the day with this so problmatic 11.10 cycle [20:23] its just like the cycle before [20:23] only worse [20:23] broken until beta [20:24] 11.04 was bad [20:24] its working quite well now [20:24] my machine doesnt power off [20:24]