[11:10] <BluesKaj> Hey all
[16:43] <dscassel_> Moo.
[17:18] <BluesKaj> How Now Brown Cow , dscassel :)
[17:18] <BluesKaj> What's New With You ?
[18:08] <dscassel> BluesKaj: Busy. Work, Kwartzlab... not a lot of Ubuntu stuff since the Global Jam, sadly.
[18:11] <BluesKaj> desktop wars ?
[18:59] <dscassel> You mean like Gnome vs Unity vs KDE?
[18:59] <dscassel> ...vs Openbox vs LXDE vs monad...
[19:00] <genii-around> Did I drop into the middle of a desktop environment debate? ;)
[19:01] <dscassel> genii-around: twm forever!
[19:03] <genii-around> Thats a pretty old one! When I first saw linux, the main desktops were twm, fvwm, enlightenment, .... kde was at version 1.2
[19:05] <BluesKaj> dscassel, no unity vs gnome3 vs gnome shell vs classic gnome vs .... who knows what :)
[19:45] <cyphermox> dscassel: ratpoison!
[19:54] <genii-around> I keep meaning to try that one... gui without a mouse sounds interesting
[20:24] <dscassel> BluesKaj: Same thing. :)
[20:25] <BluesKaj> no dscassel , I meant within  gnome
[20:25] <dscassel> cyphermox: I like the *idea* of tiling window managers, but I'm a bit too wedded to my mouse.
[20:26] <cyphermox> make no mistake, I can't use it either
[20:26]  * cyphermox uses unity, and I consider it somewhat part of my contract to do so
[20:26] <dscassel> I've been using a mouse since 1988.  I *need* it.
[20:26] <dscassel> cyphermox: heh. :)
[20:26] <cyphermox> ;)
[20:27] <cyphermox> although that goes along with using xubuntu and kubuntu :)
[20:27] <dscassel> BluesKaj: Yeah, I know.  I just roll my eyes, really.
[20:27] <dscassel> People should use what they like. Full stop.
[20:27] <cyphermox> absolutely
[20:28] <cyphermox> just mentioning that all three installed at the same time on the same system is absolutely doable, and usually works pretty well
[20:28] <dscassel> Yeah.
[20:28] <cyphermox> with the exception that my notifications are horrendously disfigured in Unity if the xubuntu stuff is installed.. they start growing buttons and all
[20:28] <dscassel> It looks like gnome-panel is going to be pretty stock standard, though.
[20:29] <dscassel> It's a shame there's not an easy way to get back the "Classic" Ubuntu interface people are used to.
[20:29] <dscassel> I'm sure that'll come, though.
[20:29] <BluesKaj> yeah, I started , on the job with various instrument application control software that used guis ...and the lovely orange on black/blcak on orange monitor colours :)
[20:29] <genii-around> It's making it hard to convince people to use Ubuntu
[20:29] <cyphermox> oh, there is
[20:30] <dscassel> genii-around: What is? That it changes?
[20:30] <cyphermox> dscassel: install gnome-session-fallback; you get the "Classic" gnome thing, except it's the new fallback from gnome-shell, so it's the gnome-panel with clock in the middle and all of that
[20:30] <dscassel> It'll stop changing soon. Transitions are hard.
[20:30] <dscassel> cyphermox: Cool.
[20:30] <genii-around> dscassel: Unity for desktop choice mostly
[20:31] <dscassel> genii-around: I actually like Unity.  So I scratch my head at that one.
[20:31] <dscassel> I agree that presenting people with a choice straight off the bat is a turn-off.
[20:32] <dscassel> People don't know what a "desktop environment" is, far less how to pick one.
[20:33] <dscassel> The answer, I guess, is to talk to them first.  Find out what they want.  If they want to resurrect an old XP machine and don't like change, maybe lubuntu is the answer.
[20:33] <genii-around> Heh, yes.
[20:33] <dscassel> If they like flashy GUIs and Windows 7, maybe kubuntu.  If they're a Mac fan, Unity.
[20:33] <BluesKaj> a stable DE is best as default , not one that is as buggy as Unity
[20:34] <dscassel> BluesKaj: cyphermox would be interested in any bugs you might have.
[20:34] <cyphermox> probably, yes
[20:34] <dscassel> 11.04 unity is a 1.0 release.
[20:34] <dscassel> It's not going to stay buggy.
[20:34] <cyphermox> even saying it's buggy tends to be usage specific
[20:35] <dscassel> 11.04 unity users are, for better of for worse, beta testers.
[20:35] <cyphermox> I found it was usable, despite the issues
[20:35] <dscassel> I use it every day.  Even now, it's much better on 11.04 than at release.
[20:35] <genii-around> I couldn't get it on my netbook due to Intel graphics card
[20:35] <BluesKaj> dscassel, I don't rub gnome ...anymore ...tried it, but from the queries on #ubuntu about unity fixes . it's not difficult to see Unity has a lot of bugs
[20:36] <BluesKaj> run
[20:36] <dscassel> I'm not going to begrudge anyone running KDE if that's what they prefer.
[20:36] <dscassel> I'd hear it from txwikinger if I did anyway. :)
[20:37] <txwikinger> dscassel: what did you do now? ;)
[20:37] <dscassel> I'm telling people Unity isn't so bad. :)
[20:38]  * txwikinger does not give opinions on things he does not use
[20:38] <dscassel> genii-around: Unity 2D is coming.  Driver support for compiz isn't really unity's fault...
[20:39] <genii-around> It's just frustrating, mostly.
[20:39] <dscassel> Yeah. Beta testing often is. :)
[20:39]  * txwikinger thinks Gnome and Unity are going through the same user issue as KDE did when changing to KDE4
[20:44]  * txwikinger wonders how long desktop wars will go on... aren't we getting into the age of the cloud?
[20:45] <BluesKaj> google is working on that...wonder when it will be officilaly released
[20:45] <txwikinger> Not only google
[20:50] <BluesKaj> who else ?
[20:51] <genii-around> Amazon for one
[20:52] <BluesKaj> what does amazon call their cloud OS?
[20:53] <cyphermox> Amazon allows you to choose the OS you put on the instances
[20:53] <cyphermox> otherwise I guess it's just called AWS
[20:53] <txwikinger> rackspace does a lot of cloud stuff
[20:53] <txwikinger> Canadian Cloud Computing
[20:55] <txwikinger> Well.. and then there is Ubuntu server with lots of cloud stuff
[20:56]  * txwikinger also does cloud stuff
[21:02] <dscassel> Then there's tablets and smartphone OSes.
[21:02] <dscassel> As I see it, everything is up for grabs.
[21:02] <khoover> ...isn't cloud computing what people left behind to go to the desktop model?
[21:03] <dscassel> The only thing for certain is computing a few years from now won't look anything like it does now.
[21:03] <khoover> server-client?
[21:03] <dscassel> khoover: It's the circle of life. :)
[21:03] <khoover> dscassel, i dislike it already
[21:04] <khoover> my hardware is my hardware, no sharing it with god knows how many other people.
[21:05] <dscassel> khoover: I, for one, am glad that free software allows one to tailor their computing any way they want. :)
[21:05] <dscassel> Mac users, for example, don't have the option of saying "Nuts to all this cloud stuff!"
[21:05] <dscassel> They're getting it whether they like it or not.
[21:06] <txwikinger> dscassel: No.. there was no cloud
[21:06] <txwikinger> there was only one server
[21:06] <khoover> dscassel, see, that i can agree on.
[21:06] <txwikinger> and the communication lines were very expensive
[21:07] <txwikinger> I think the cloud has a lot more opportunities for free software
[21:07] <txwikinger> Most cloud stuff is linux
[21:07] <khoover> txwikinger, weren't clients, for the most part, either local to the server or run over dial-up?
[21:07] <dscassel> *nods*
[21:08] <txwikinger> khoover: well.. first it was always one server.. and dumm terminals
[21:08] <txwikinger> dumb
[21:08] <txwikinger> with very long lines
[21:08] <txwikinger> very slow.. very unreliable
[21:08] <txwikinger> well.. before that were punch cards actually
[21:08] <txwikinger> even slower and even more unreliable
[21:09]  * txwikinger ask for a roll call who all has used the kermit terminal software before
[21:09] <txwikinger> Or who has ever use EBSDIC
[21:09] <txwikinger> +d
[21:10] <khoover> in all likelihood, i wasn't born then.
[21:10] <txwikinger> young crowd :D
[21:11] <genii-around> txwikinger: Yes, used kermit :)
[21:12] <txwikinger> genii-around: ;)
[21:12] <genii-around> In fact our FreeNet server here still has CLI login for users where they can use Lynx, Pine, etc
[21:12] <dscassel> txwikinger: I got on at vt100.
[21:12] <txwikinger> kermit was fantastic.. implicit EBSDIC <-> ASCII conversion and everything
[21:12] <dscassel> Probably vt220 or something, actually.
[21:13] <txwikinger> dscassel: Ever wrote software for an IBM 360?
[21:13] <genii-around> Bleh, batches
[21:13] <dscassel> txwikinger: Nope.
[21:13] <khoover> txwikinger, i believe i tried to make one in minecraft once.
[21:13] <txwikinger> that was a drag.. those system call were criminal
[21:13] <dscassel> All SunOS/Solaris in school.
[21:14] <genii-around> Our school had a few cool old computers like a PDP9 and PDP11
[21:14] <txwikinger> Also. only block devices.. and those registers ... awful
[21:14] <genii-around> Later on my other school had IRIX/SGI
[21:15] <txwikinger> we were all happy when we got the first risc computer.. but we had to rewrite all the software to be able to run on risc
[21:15] <khoover> sorry, i tried to make EDVAC in minecraft
[21:15] <khoover> couldn't finish reading the specification. >_<