[13:57] <slashtom> do i detect a lack of enthusiasm? http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-ie/1278/detail/
[13:58] <slashtom> we could do with people signing up to this one if they're going to come along, as we need to book tables
[14:01] <czajkowski> slashtom: harass on the ML I guess :/
[14:02] <slashtom> on the mailing list?
[14:02] <slashtom> mike has already posted
[14:02] <ebel> LD has a template / html / <table> display bug
[14:03] <ebel> :P
[14:03] <slashtom> i may report to the ILUG list in a couple of weeks
[14:03] <slashtom> repost*
[15:08] <tdr112> i will sign up when i get how , i dont have my password on this laptop
[15:08] <tdr112> home
[15:08] <tdr112> that is
[15:09] <czajkowski> tdr112: ello hows the job this week
[15:13] <tdr112> ok stoping at 6.30pm these days , had to work all weekend
[15:18] <ebel> o_O
[15:18] <ebel> sounds like you're working too hard.
[15:18] <slashtom> tdr112: unless you're arriving into work at 11am, they're taking the piss
[15:19] <ebel> Remember, you're soon enough out of college that you can just pretend this never happened on your CV.
[15:19] <slashtom> aye, 3 months out of college... you can write off the time and nobody would think anything of it
[15:20] <ebel> just pretend you took a few weeks off to relax after college
[15:20] <ebel> and look for a new job.
[15:20] <ebel> tell these chancers to feck off.
[15:20] <ebel> If you can walk away from the bargaining table, you are in a position of strength
[15:20] <slashtom> aye, unless they're paying well €80k+
[15:21] <slashtom> they're chances and really taking the piss
[15:21] <ebel> everyone goes through that. my ex-job was a PITA
[15:22] <Tribaal> hey, sorry to be jumping in, but I'll be moving to Ireland soon, and that seems like an appropriate discussion to ask this: what should I expect as "not taking the piss working hours"? :)
[15:23] <slashtom> yep, even yesterday i was sent a graduate job add for a position in england that wanted someone with a minimum 2:2 and paying less than my former salary (i was software team leader)
[15:23] <slashtom> Tribaal: nothing more than 40 hours per week
[15:23] <Tribaal> slashtom: really? Whow
[15:23] <slashtom> where are you moving from?
[15:23] <Tribaal> good to know
[15:23] <Tribaal> Switzerland
[15:23] <slashtom> graduate or with experience?
[15:24] <Tribaal> here the legal max is 42/week, and I currently do well over 50
[15:24] <Tribaal> with experience
[15:24] <Tribaal> (10+ years)
[15:24] <slashtom> aye, it depends on the company but IT skills are in short supply
[15:24] <Tribaal> ok
[15:24] <slashtom> anyone who wants to retain their employees treats them well
[15:25] <slashtom> those who don't, like ebel's former employer do badly (i don't think ebel has been properly replaced, and he left 12 months ago)
[15:25] <Tribaal> How come, by the way? Seems like there are lots of IT companies there - there should be schools etc... to match, so where do all the IT guys leave to? the US?
[15:25] <ebel> usually 'full time' means 9am → 5pm (or 5:30pm), Monday → Friday
[15:25] <ebel> legal max here is 48hrs per week IIRC
[15:26] <Tribaal> who did you work for ebel? :)
[15:26] <ebel> Ireland usually just uses the bare minimum of EU employee rights
[15:27] <slashtom> Tribaal: there's limited local resource, i work for a company with about 30 employee. in the past 18 months we have taken on about 5 new developers who the majority (including myself) are immigrants
[15:27] <ebel> don't think it's a case of people leaving, more like jobs coming in.
[15:27] <ebel> e.g. us companies.
[15:27] <Tribaal> oh, gotcha
[15:27] <ebel> but I've always worked for irish tech companies, and there are load of them.
[15:27] <ebel> usually small companies
[15:28] <Tribaal> what do other activity sectors look like in Ireland? My wife isn't a techie - and she'll probably be looking for something sooner or later...
[15:28] <ebel> lots of pharmacutial i think...
[15:28] <ebel> not a lot of construction.....
[15:28] <Tribaal> (sorry - I don't mean to hijack the discussion, please tell me if I'm being a troll)
[15:28] <czajkowski> Tribaal: what area does she work in
[15:28] <slashtom> you're grand
[15:29] <ebel> things like nursing, teaching and a lot of public sector jobs have not been hiring anyone for years....
[15:29] <Tribaal> well she's into banking/finance (project management mostly)
[15:29] <czajkowski> well banking sector possibly not so
[15:29] <czajkowski> given ireland current woes with the banks
[15:29] <Tribaal> yeah
[15:29] <czajkowski> so PM work elsewhere possible
[15:29] <ebel> i don't know how many banking/finance jobs there are, but the banking industry kinda went downhill a bit
[15:29] <czajkowski> though BOI has a lot of contract PM work atm
[15:30] <Tribaal> yeah sounds reasonable
[15:30] <Tribaal> good to know for BOI (I assume Bank Of Ireland)
[15:31] <ebel> that's an interesting observation, you never really heard lots of techies going off to the USA to get work
[15:31] <ebel> recently or in the celtic tiger years...
[15:31] <Tribaal> here it's the big thing
[15:31] <Tribaal> most graduates dream of going to silicon valley to make it big
[15:32] <ebel> yes, there is some who'd do that....
[15:32] <Tribaal> and most end up doing shitty jobs there instead of staying and earning a relatively good living
[15:33] <czajkowski> Tribaal: where are you based now ?
[15:33] <Tribaal> in Zurich, Switzerland
[15:34]  * ebel has been in the canton of zurich
[15:34] <ebel> (or maybe it was bern)
[15:34] <Tribaal> hehe
[15:35] <czajkowski> Tribaal: so you do realise the wages in ireland are a lot lower than  Switzerland by a long shot as well
[15:35] <slashtom> i don't think we went as far north as zurich
[15:35] <slashtom> but living costs are much lower
[15:35] <ebel> czajkowski: price is much less in .ie than .ch
[15:35] <czajkowski> a lot of my mates are in Google Switzerland
[15:35] <Tribaal> Bern looks like a castle (all made of stone, plenty of medieval-looking structures), Zurich is more cosmopolitan/modern
[15:35] <slashtom> it would be like moving from .ie to .uk
[15:35] <ebel> Tribaal: me and slashtom were riding motorbikes over the alps
[15:35] <czajkowski> slashtom: they've said different which is why one is leaving and 3 are staying for various reasons
[15:36] <Tribaal> czajkowski: yeah, Google has a big R&D center here
[15:36] <czajkowski> indeed
[15:36] <Tribaal> ebel: nice :)
[15:36] <ebel> Tribaal: get used to things not really working as well, and things not being as tidy.
[15:36] <czajkowski> yeah that's their big complaint when they come back visiting
[15:36] <ebel> I'm going to assume in switzerland things (e.g. busses/trains) work well and reliably. In Ireland things are a bit more... flexible.
[15:36] <Tribaal> ebel: we don't mind :) That's partly why we're leaving this place - too orderly, not enough room for opportunities
[15:36] <czajkowski> Tribaal: are you irish and want to move back ?
[15:36] <Tribaal> czajkowski: nope
[15:37] <czajkowski> Tribaal: so why Ireland ?
[15:37] <Tribaal> we're Swiss and French, and want to see the world, after living in a very tidy and boring country
[15:37] <slashtom> ireland is deadly, of course :D
[15:37] <Tribaal> Well, we're not completely hippies yet, so we decided to move wherever one of us would have a job offer first
[15:37]  * slashtom tries to presuade czajkowski to move back :)
[15:37] <Tribaal> :)
[15:38] <Tribaal> (some of my friends went what I call the hippie way and "dropped everything and went to Africa" or something)
[15:38] <czajkowski> slashtom: no chance and I don't mind it here seeing as I'm half English and dad is English. I mean dads dad left england and went back to poland to his country
[15:38] <Tribaal> (didn't work out so well for them)
[15:39] <czajkowski> it's not as if I went to another country with no relationship with
[15:39] <czajkowski> Tribaal: aye we've had mates from Oz who did the EU thing and are now back in OZ
[15:39] <Tribaal> sorry, but what is OZ?
[15:39] <ebel> Tribaal: mailing lists (e.g. ILUG, python-ireland etc.) are good places to find job postings.
[15:40] <czajkowski> Australia
[15:40] <ebel> as well as the usual ones like moster.ie, and recruiters
[15:40] <Tribaal> (I'll have to upgrade my slang terms I think :) )
[15:40] <slashtom> that's where myself and czajkowski differ, i consider it a promotion to have moved from England to Ireland :)
[15:40] <czajkowski> :)
[15:40] <Tribaal> hehe
[15:40] <czajkowski> I was born here first remember
[15:40] <slashtom> aye, i used monster.ie
[15:40] <czajkowski> and have relations here
[15:40] <ebel> since companies can spend ages looking for a job, enquire about all job postings. I've gotten a job from a 6 month old job posting and an interview with a 1 year old job posting.
[15:41] <slashtom> recruiters will pick you up as soon as you sign up to monster.ie
[15:41] <czajkowski> Tribaal: also look at linkedin
[15:41] <Tribaal> good to know
[15:41] <Tribaal> yeah linkedin was what got me that job in Ireland
[15:41] <czajkowski> Tribaal: are you involved in the swiss or french loco ?
[15:41] <Tribaal> hopefully my wife will get something too :)
[15:41] <ebel> Tribaal: slashtom (being a recent immigrant) can teach you all about slang :P
[15:41] <slashtom> :P
[15:41] <Tribaal> czajkowski: yea, the Swiss one
[15:41] <Tribaal> but it's kind of boring :)
[15:41] <czajkowski> Tribaal: so will you come along to the release party in ireland now
[15:42] <Tribaal> I mean everything is super difficult to organise for the Swiss loco since we speak 3 national languages...
[15:42] <Tribaal> czajkowski: probably not, I'll start working on the 1st of Nov (and before that I'll have to do the moving etc... in Switzerland)
[15:43] <Tribaal> but I'll definitely be there for the next one however :)
[15:43] <Tribaal> or for drinkups etc... in the mean time
[15:43] <ebel> Ah you already have a job, cool.
[15:43] <Tribaal> ebel: yeah, that was the "why Ireland"
[15:43] <slashtom> in dublin?
[15:44] <Tribaal> then my wife will probably want to get one too if possible
[15:44] <ebel> cool. what sorta tech do you work at?
[15:44] <Tribaal> yeah Dublin
[15:44] <slashtom> deadly!
[15:44] <Tribaal> ?
[15:44] <ebel> if you haven't found a place to live, remember that ireland has had a massive property crash. rents are falling rapidly. it's a renters-market.
[15:44] <Tribaal> oh? good to know
[15:44] <ebel> apartment prices (to buy) are down about 50% in 3 years.
[15:44] <ebel> ("deadly" = "brilliant" )
[15:45] <Tribaal> ebel: oh ok :) Like in French then :)
[15:45] <Tribaal> I wasn't sure :)
[15:45] <ebel> le deadly
[15:45] <Tribaal> lol
[15:45] <Tribaal> "mortel" :)
[15:45] <slashtom> daft.ie is good for rentals
[15:45] <Tribaal> good to know
[15:46] <Tribaal> thanks guys (and gals)
[15:46] <slashtom> http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/ - useful information
[15:46] <Tribaal> whow
[15:46] <Tribaal> the one link to rule them all
[15:46] <Tribaal> :)
[15:47] <slashtom> http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/introduction_to_the_irish_system/
[15:47] <Tribaal> deadly, thanks :)
[15:51] <Tribaal> ebel, also since you asked, I'm a (mostly) Python developer
[15:51] <ebel> Cool. Me too.
[15:55] <czajkowski> Tribaal: so where will you be working
[16:35] <dstaar> Hi. I am probably wrong in this channel but I rely on the OS community. I'm looking for a good source about the irish job market which explains what exactly e.g. contract means in detail. For the curious one i would like to work in dublin and need some background information.
[16:39] <ebel> hehe, we were telling someone else about jobs in ireland earlier today (sorta)
[16:39] <ebel> what exactly do you not understand? what sort of job is it? (I assume some technology job?) Where are you coming from? UK? USA?
[16:39] <ebel> germany?
[16:40] <ebel> a "contract job" is not a permanent job, but would be similar. it's a job that's limited in time, and you are only employed to work for (say) X months, after that you are not employed anymore
[16:41] <ebel> it's like a freelancer job, or temporary job.
[16:41] <ebel> (However practically jobs (include permanent jobs) will have an employment contract)
[16:42] <ebel> dstaar: does that help?
[16:44] <dstaar> i come from germany at the moment i study in a masters program applied computer science.
[16:45] <dstaar> before writing my master thesis I would like to work in dublin for half a year that is my intention
[16:45] <dstaar> contract based offers seem to be very popular
[16:46] <ebel> cool. There are a lot of technology jobs in dublin now.
[16:46] <ebel> there are still a lot of permanent jobs, not just contract jobs.
[16:46] <ebel> But if you only want to work 6 months, then a contract job might be best.
[16:46] <ebel> since then the employer knows you will not be around after 6 months.
[16:47] <dstaar> it is also very flexible in germany permanent is more usual
[16:47] <ebel> if you go for a job interview, tell them that you want to quit the job in 6 months. be kind :)
[16:48] <ebel> permanent job is probably more common than contract job. there are probably more people working in a permanent job than a contract job.
[16:48] <dstaar> germans are always kind :D
[16:48] <ebel> Some people don't want a permanent job and go from contract job to contract job.
[16:49] <dstaar> what about insurance and tax issues by a contract jobs, how is that handled?
[16:50] <ebel> I am not sure.... http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/introduction_to_the_irish_system/
[16:50] <ebel> http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/ has lots of good information.
[16:50] <dstaar> great source thank you.
[16:51] <dstaar> do you know something about job chances. I mean there are a lot of job offerings in the it sector twitter is full of that.
[16:51] <ebel> there are a lot of technology/programming jobs in dublin now.
[16:52] <dstaar> i got a bachelor degree, several years working experience and "some" english knowledge
[16:52] <dstaar> do you live in dublin ebel?
[16:54] <ebel> for open source technologies you can try mailing lists, (e.g. ILUG), they often have job postings.
[16:54] <ebel> I live in Dublin.
[16:54] <ebel> Remember that some education qualification levels are different in different countries, but experience is always very helpful to you.
[16:55] <ebel> Dublin, being the capital city, and ~ 20% → 30% of the population has lots of technology jobs.
[16:57] <dstaar> my plans are to come in autumn next year to dublin together with my girlfriend. A flat seems to cost about 600€ but i couldn't find anything about electricity and internet costs et cetera.
[16:58] <ebel> ireland had a big property crash (that's why the IMF/ECB bailout), so in 1 year, property might be less.
[16:58] <ebel> internet is about €30 per month for ~ 8Mbit broadband (aka DSL)
[16:58] <ebel> electricity is roughly similar per month.
[16:59] <dstaar> just 8 Mbit, oh dear … no, just kidding  :D
[16:59] <ebel> Some houses/flats have gas heating, some don't.
[16:59] <ebel> we don't (yet) pay council taxes or water rates. you may have to pay for rubbish collection (or if you live in a big apartment block you might not)
[17:00] <dstaar> ok is it possible to get internet for 6month or there will be longe contracts?
[17:00] <ebel> usually contracts would be for 1 year. You can get prepaid 3G / mobile internet
[17:00] <ebel> so you can pay month by month for that. you might be able to get only 6 months of internet. maybe
[17:01] <dstaar> i already did some research for 3G it's about 20€ for 7.5GB traffic.
[17:01] <ebel> wait, you might be able to get 6 months of broadband/dsl internet. You can definitly get only 6 months of mobile phone internet
[17:01] <ebel> yes, 3G wouldn't be as fast, or allow you to download as much.
[17:02] <Tribaal> sorry, irccloud went down for a while
[17:02] <dstaar> i know bit it will be enough.
[17:02] <Tribaal> czajkowski: I'll be working with Dell
[17:02] <dstaar> it's just for keeping contact to family.
[17:03] <Tribaal> dstaar: what operator is that?
[17:03] <dstaar> wait.
[17:04] <dstaar> it was one of the smaller companies.
[17:04] <Tribaal> that sound spretty good
[17:04] <dstaar> meteor or 3 one of them.
[17:04] <ebel> you could get mobile data with your mobile phone plan. might be cheaper than a dongle. then use tethering to use the connection on your computer
[17:05] <dstaar> as long as i get a micro sim.
[17:05] <Tribaal> ebel, what would you suggest for a mobile phone operator?
[17:05] <Tribaal> also one of the smaller ones?
[17:06] <ebel> there are only a few mobile phone operators really
[17:06] <ebel> nearly all have fine coverage in dublin (unless you're going up the mountains)
[17:06] <ebel> 3 is newish and can have spotty coveragwe
[17:06] <ebel> otherwise they are all practically the same.
[17:06] <ebel> i have a phone with emobile.
[17:06] <dstaar> is 3 a real provider or just a reseller?
[17:07] <ebel> I think 3 are a real provider.
[17:07] <ebel> tesco mobile are a reseller. emobile is a reseller, but that's cause they (eircom) bought another mobile phone network (meteor), so it's the same company.
[17:08] <ebel> on eircom landline internet connection thepiratebay.org is censored and blocked.
[17:08] <ebel> (not on emobile or meteor, you can get to thepiratebay.org fine)
[17:08] <dstaar> that is something which shouldn't be supported is there any more censorship?
[17:08] <Tribaal> wait - three has *all you can eat data* plans?
[17:09] <Tribaal> geez
[17:09] <Tribaal> I have to pay more than 20 Swiss francs for *1Gb*/month
[17:09] <dstaar> i am paying 10€ for 1GB 3G the rest is transferred with GPRS
[17:09] <ebel> dstaar: no, tis only thepiratebay.org. The music industry asked them to block it, they did. :)
[17:10] <Tribaal> ebel - any landline operator know not to censor?
[17:10] <ebel> Ireland no longer blocks or censors books & films. (Go back 30 years and playboy was banned)
[17:10] <Tribaal> for instance in France they have "Free", who made a public statement saying they would not censor when asked to by the gov.
[17:10] <ebel> Tribaal: only eircom censor thepiratebay.org. everything else, is fine
[17:10] <Tribaal> ebel: ok
[17:11] <Tribaal> I should be ok to live with that
[17:11] <Tribaal> and can SSH tunnel anyway, if I *really* need to :P
[17:11] <dstaar> we got a huge community in germany fighting against censorship it is scarring to hear that other countries already using their infrastructure for those cases
[17:11] <ebel> Tribaal: there might be 'fair usage' policy on that. ie might not be unlimited.
[17:11] <dstaar> anyway using vpn or tor is the way to go
[17:12] <Tribaal> ebel, yeah but still :) There are such usage restrictions on mine too :)
[17:12]  * ebel has to go home, ttyl, this channel is usually pretty active.
[17:12] <Tribaal> hehe
[17:12] <Tribaal> ebel: take care
[17:12] <Tribaal> and thanks for all the info
[17:12] <dstaar> thank you ebel
[17:12] <dstaar> i'll be back … what a worse joke
[17:12] <dstaar> tribaal where are you from?
[17:12] <Tribaal> hehe
[17:13] <Tribaal> dstaar: moving into Ireland too?
[17:13] <Tribaal> Switzerland for now
[17:13] <dstaar> i want to move to dublin for half a year in 2012
[17:15] <Tribaal> ah cool
[17:16]  * Tribaal jogging time - TTYL
[17:16] <dstaar> actually i am studying but it seems hard to pay for university that's why i am looking for a job
[17:37] <czajkowski> Tribaal: ahh dell in dublin so in cherry wood ?
[17:41] <dstaar> is dell looking for programmers?
[20:01] <czajkowski> moonpie: ping
[20:43] <Tribaal> czajkowski: yeah, cherrywood
[20:44] <Tribaal> don't know how much they are looking for programmers, but I assume at least a little, yeah