[02:15] <ojwb> hmm, is there anything happening for software freedom day in wellington this year?
[02:16] <ojwb> http://softwarefreedomday.org.nz/Wellington is kind of vague, and the feeds seem to have last updated just under a year ago
[02:21] <ibeardslee> ojwb: there was some discussion at the NZOSS agm about what could be done.  There was talk of a gathering of some sort .. but not to the same scale as previous years
[02:22] <ajmitch> is it like asking when the ubuntu-nz loco is going to do something?
[02:23] <ojwb> the events the last few years have been pretty substantial
[02:23] <ibeardslee> yeah .. but feel free to step in
[02:23] <ojwb> though I realise it's a significant effort to pull them together
[02:24] <ajmitch> ibeardslee: that requires imagination & some effort
[02:24] <ibeardslee> which I lack to some degree
[02:24] <ajmitch> you're not the only one
[02:25] <ajmitch> if someone does have loco ideas, I'm sure we'd support them :)
[02:27] <ojwb> come on baby, do the loco motion!
[02:28] <ibeardslee> .. .. except ojwb's idea
[02:44] <chilts> lol
[03:25] <karora> Yeah, SFD has had a couple of capable organisers for the last few years, but it does seem to burn them out!
[03:54] <snail> is there a link to how to upgrade a desktop to 11.10 before the official release? I want the graceful upgrade by GUI tools rather than the CD image
[03:54] <snail> d'oh. found it.
[03:55] <ibeardslee> the CD is gui installable
[03:55] <ibeardslee> it'd pick up there are new packages and check to see if you want to upgrade
[03:57] <ajmitch> ibeardslee: isn't that just for the alternate cd?
[03:58] <ibeardslee> don't think so .. I'm sure when I had a oneiric desktop iso for one of the betas it asked me if I wanted to update natty
[03:59]  * ajmitch could be wrong, but had thought that only the alternate image contained .debs, which would make upgrading from the desktop image a bit harder
[04:00] <ajmitch> I very rarely see the installer these days
[04:06]  * ibeardslee could be wrong as well .. so many isos
[10:35]  * karora just downgraded to 11.04...
[10:35] <karora> Well, for Heather's new laptop.
[10:36] <karora> 11.10 just turned into instantly into a whole pile of fail.
[10:39] <ajmitch> what blew up?
[19:40] <ibeardslee> morning
[19:51] <snail> morning
[20:22] <ajmitch> morning
[20:25] <Atamira> morena
[21:05] <mwhudson> morning
[21:21] <thumper> morning
[21:22] <thumper> karora: what happened?
[21:27] <karora> The unity-2d thing was just totally useless.
[21:27] <karora> Things were crashing every 20 seconds or so, repeatedly.
[21:27] <ojwb> morning
[21:28] <karora> I had to use the 'nomodeset' option in order to boot, so there was no 3d driver active.
[21:28] <ojwb> karora: my impression was that unity wasn't really ready to be pushed out to the world in 11.10
[21:28] <karora> It was strange though, even things like icons were missing until I installed some of the icon packages from gnome.
[21:28] <ojwb> you can just uninstall it and get a more normal gnome environment though
[21:29] <karora> I tried using the fglrx drivers and just got a big square piece of screen corruption for a cursor.
[21:29] <ibeardslee> ojwb: 11.04 or 11.10 ?
[21:29]  * ojwb sshes in to check
[21:30] <ojwb> oh, 11.04, yeah
[21:30] <ojwb> 11.10 isn't released yet of course
[21:30] <ojwb> sorry for the confusion
[21:30] <ojwb> can you not get normal gnome in 11.10?
[21:30] <ibeardslee> I'm finding that although signs of being incomplete, the 11.10 unity (2d) is behaving fairly well.
[21:31] <ibeardslee> the 'ubuntu standard' has been removed from the default options
[21:31] <ibeardslee> unity is growing on me
[21:31] <ojwb> hmm, I think I might be switching the old machines to debian then
[21:32] <ibeardslee> Mint is another option to consider
[21:32] <ajmitch> removed from default options != removed from archive, afaik
[21:32] <ibeardslee> it uses a bunch of ubuntu repos, but puts a gnome interface on it
[21:32] <ojwb> tbh unity didn't get much of a chance to impress me given it didn't really seem to work
[21:32] <ajmitch> they've apparantly tried to keep the 'classic' interface still working
[21:33] <ojwb> but I'm not sure I want a major change in how my desktop works
[21:33] <ibeardslee> ajmitch: oh, I thought there was a plan to remove it with 11.10
[21:34] <ajmitch> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2011-September/012885.html
[21:37] <ojwb> so apparently canonical invested "multiple hours" in keeping it working
[21:38] <ajmitch> one frustrated developer replying to people's misinformation & miscommunication
[21:39] <ojwb> yeah, it just seemed a slightly underwhelming amount of time
[21:41] <ojwb> it is good that they haven't just dropped support for it though
[21:42] <ajmitch> did you expect weeks of work put in to make the non-default desktop work?
[21:42] <ajmitch> this is ubuntu, there are only about 13 weeks from UDS to feature freeze :)
[21:44] <ojwb> well, that's calendar weeks not man weeks
[21:44] <ajmitch> right, and the desktop team is relatively small compared to the team that actually works on unity
[21:44] <ajmitch> it's a bit of an odd split
[21:45] <ojwb> not sure I really expect anything particularly, but I think dropping support would have been a strategic misstep on their part
[21:45] <ajmitch> yeah, I think it would have pissed off a few people to just drop it altogether
[21:45] <ajmitch> I don't know how much love gnome-panel & friends are getting upstream these days
[21:48] <snail> maybe it's part of a sekret plan to drive desktop users back to debian...
[21:50] <ajmitch> where people get to use gnome-shell?
[21:50] <ojwb> it would also seem odd to support KDE and XFCE as choices but not Gnome
[22:31] <chilts> morning :)
[22:59]  * thumper laments
[22:59] <thumper> the whole unity in 11.04 thing was very political
[22:59] <thumper> which code shouldn't be
[22:59] <thumper> but often gets caught up with
[22:59] <thumper> I can attest to unity being better in oneiric
[22:59] <thumper> at least on the memory side
[22:59] <thumper> as I've spent most of the last two months fixing memory leaks
[22:59] <thumper> and I've run out of ones to find for now
[23:00] <thumper> as long as no one commits, or does things I didn't think of :)
[23:01] <snail> thumper: the thing is to stop people committing...
[23:01] <thumper> :-)
[23:02] <thumper> I have to say that my initial response to the new alt-tab was WHY?
[23:02] <thumper> but I'm used to it now
[23:02] <thumper> and I kinda like it
[23:02] <thumper> especially when you use it in conjunction with alt-`
[23:04] <ibeardslee> hmm it hides behind my windows
[23:05] <thumper> that has hopefully been fixed now
[23:05] <thumper> it is a compiz bug
[23:05] <ajmitch> thumper: does this mean you get to relax for a month or so if there are no leaks left? :)
[23:05] <thumper> our compiz person is pretty confident with it
[23:06]  * ibeardslee just finished updating and rebooting
[23:06] <thumper> ajmitch: no... not yet
[23:06]  * ajmitch has his laptop at hom eat the moment upgrading to maverick
[23:06] <thumper> ibeardslee: I'm pretty sure it hasn't been packaged yet
[23:06] <ojwb> are the non-LTS releases essentially to be regarded as "development snapshots" these days?
[23:06] <ajmitch> & maybe I'll upgrade to natty tonight
[23:06] <ibeardslee> thumper: ahh ok
[23:06] <ajmitch> ojwb: I'd hope not
[23:06] <thumper> ojwb: they shouldn't be
[23:07] <ajmitch> much effort does go into making them work still
[23:07] <ajmitch> it's just never enough to make all the bugs disappear :)
[23:07] <thumper> heh, aint that the truth
[23:07] <thumper> although I have to admit that the dx team is getting more time to fix bugs this cycle
[23:08] <ojwb> it does seem there are too many live releases for the man power
[23:08] <thumper> apparently there was no bug fix time last time due to rushing it in
[23:08] <thumper> ojwb: we're growing :)
[23:08] <thumper> which isn't a quick fix
[23:08] <thumper> any strong C++ people looking for work?
[23:09] <ajmitch> I wonder if scott's writeup of his vision for the release cycle will get much discussion at UDS :)
[23:09] <thumper> I'm looking for more people in my TZ :)
[23:09] <thumper> I didn't read it
[23:09] <thumper> care to summarise?
[23:10] <ajmitch> 6-month release cycle is bad due to how canonical's performance bonuses encourage people to get stuff in by feature freeze
[23:10] <ajmitch> his proposal seems to be for more of a rolling release
[23:11] <ajmitch> & that time-based releases shouldn't mean trying to jam as much into each release that's half-done as possible
[23:11] <ojwb> thumper: well, my C++ is good, but I think I'd probably find canonical more frustrating from the inside than the outside
[23:11] <ojwb> not really sure I want a real job either
[23:11] <thumper> ojwb: heh
[23:12] <ajmitch> my c++ skills are poor, as you know :)
[23:12] <mwhudson> my c++ skills have spent at least a decade rusting
[23:12] <thumper> ojwb: what do you do now?
[23:12] <mwhudson> which is quite a frightening thing to realize
[23:12] <thumper> mwhudson: you don't count
[23:12] <ojwb> thumper: xapian stuff
[23:12] <ibeardslee> I never learnt c++
[23:12] <mwhudson> thumper: heh, why not? :)
[23:13] <ajmitch> mwhudson: you've probably done more than the few weeks I did with it at uni
[23:13] <thumper> mwhudson: unless you want to move to dx?
[23:13] <thumper> mwhudson: I'd have you
[23:13] <mwhudson> thumper: not really, no
[23:13] <thumper> we could brush that rust off
[23:13] <ajmitch> though at one point I did actually do some C++ with Qt for fun
[23:13] <thumper> mwhudson: didn't think so
[23:13] <ajmitch> back in the kde 1.x/2.x days
[23:15] <ibeardslee> thumper: another bunch of updates landed .. seeing the alt-tab seems to work now
[23:15]  * ajmitch will probably try & upgrade to oneiric this week to see what's broken
[23:16] <thumper> my freaking touchpad is still broken
[23:17]  * ibeardslee was impressed that his graphics tablet 'just works' now
[23:17] <mwhudson> my touchpad doesn't seem to work in natty, but it sucks anyway
[23:17] <mwhudson> (luckily i have a thinkpad i guess)
[23:19]  * ajmitch rarely uses a touchpad, it's so annoying
[23:20] <karora> ajmitch: I didn't find so much stuff broken when I upgraded to Oneiric.
[23:20] <karora> It was when I installed it from scratch that everything seemed borked.
[23:20] <ajmitch> I expect that at least a few things will break for me
[23:22] <ibeardslee> I had problems with the upgrade until I removed gdm
[23:38] <ojwb> thumper: I saw this and thought of you: http://fairfaxmedia.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx
[23:38] <ojwb> or your avatar rather
[23:43] <thumper> ojwb: that link isn't very useful
[23:43] <ojwb> oh sorry: http://fairfaxmedia.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx?newspaper=the+hutt+news&cid=1829
[23:48] <thumper> :)