[00:58] <benonsoftware> Hi all
[00:58] <benonsoftware> Sorry I missed the meeting
[17:35] <patrickdickey> I'll probably be sleeping when the meeting happens, but I'll check the channel out after I wake up.
[20:51] <godbyk> Hey, rickfosb
[20:55] <c7p> hello world !
[20:55] <godbyk> hey, c7p
[20:56] <c7p> how are you godbyk ?
[20:57] <rickfosb> Hello godbyk, c7p
[20:57] <godbyk> not too bad. and you, c7p?
[20:57] <c7p> godbyk: fine :)
[20:57] <c7p> hey rickfosb
[21:00] <rickfosb> godbyk, liked the pdf site.  I just glanced at it;  is it free use?
[21:00] <c7p> ηευ ChrisWoollard
[21:01] <c7p> hey*
[21:01] <ChrisWoollard> Hello
[21:01] <godbyk> rickfosb: Yeah, it's free for nonprofit use.
[21:01] <rickfosb> I like it!
[21:01] <c7p> yeah great tool
[21:01] <rickfosb> Hello ChrisWoollard
[21:01] <ChrisWoollard> Evening rick
[21:02] <godbyk> Hey, ChrisWoollard.
[21:02] <ChrisWoollard> Evening Godbyk
[21:03] <c7p> who is here for the meeting,  raise your hands !
[21:03] <ChrisWoollard> o/
[21:03] <rickfosb> Guys, only 5 signed up on the poll.  (I didn't vote)  HERE
[21:03] <ChrisWoollard> \o/
[21:03] <godbyk> I'm here.
[21:04] <rickfosb> ChrisWoollard, I'll need to look that one up  :-)
[21:04] <ChrisWoollard> two hands up :)
[21:04] <rickfosb> Hannie sent an apology, if I recall the email strings
[21:05] <godbyk> Is everyone who said they were available in the poll here?
[21:05] <rickfosb> Ah yes, I see it now!
[21:06] <rickfosb> agenda: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/tXtRXeYMKv
[21:07] <rickfosb> \two of you are
[21:07] <rickfosb> c7p and ChrisWoollard
[21:07] <c7p> meetingbot ?
[21:07] <godbyk> #startmeeting
[21:07] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:07. The chair is godbyk.
[21:07] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:07] <rickfosb> Bryan, Mario, and Ben signed up
[21:07] <godbyk> [TOPIC] Should the Natty release continue?
[21:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Should the Natty release continue?
[21:08] <ChrisWoollard> Any thoughts?
[21:09] <c7p> Natty release has many problems
[21:09] <rickfosb> My 2 cents:  I would rather not stop work. But perhaps we can try some new tools to help move along... like your pdf edit...  Maybe some additional advertisement via Planet Ubuntu
[21:09] <ChrisWoollard> I think that maybe not. Otherwise we are always playing catchup. It would be great to get the manual out at around release.
[21:10] <c7p> first, the natty manual will be out around when the oneiric will be released
[21:10] <c7p> who will be interested on an outdated manual ?
[21:10] <rickfosb> I'm ok with Halting Natty; assuming we work on the process to get our manual out at 'release'... Is that even possible?
[21:10] <godbyk> rickfosb: Well, we managed it with our first manual (lucid).
[21:11] <rickfosb> you probably had a better editor in chief (grin)
[21:11] <godbyk> rickfosb: And back then we were still inventing our tool chain and starting from scratch.
[21:11] <godbyk> rickfosb: (I guess I was also unemployed then and had more time to spend on it, too. :-))
[21:11] <c7p> rickfosb: no we hadn't even an editor
[21:11] <ChrisWoollard> It could be possible. Natty and Oneric don't look vastly different so therefore it might be possible to tweak it enough
[21:12] <rickfosb> So, IF we take what we have --> move directly to Oneric... what do we save?
[21:12] <godbyk> If skipping Natty and going straight to Oneiric would allow us to get back on track and release the Oneiric manual at the same time as the software, that'd be awesome.
[21:13] <c7p> godbyk: yeah
[21:13] <godbyk> I think we'd save some of the intermediary steps (various editing milestones, writing freezes, etc.).
[21:13] <c7p> also we need some new authors, cause ours have gone. New authors would be interested on releasing a manual that will be read
[21:14] <rickfosb> So, how about doing on ly 1 release a year... same release each time X.10
[21:14] <rickfosb> or XX.04  which ever
[21:15] <ChrisWoollard> I think it depends what changes
[21:15] <rickfosb> good point
[21:15] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I agree.  I think it'd be nice to have manuals for the LTS releases, at a minimum.
[21:15] <ChrisWoollard> Unity required quite a big change
[21:15] <c7p> i don't think the 2 releases is the problem, the problem is that we don't keep authors motivated :/ (maybe)
[21:16] <godbyk> If we had people working on writing and editing, I think we could manage the six-month releases.  But we'll need to continually recruit new members to replace the ones that have left.
[21:16] <ChrisWoollard> It would also be nice to have the manual for the one prior to LTS also.
[21:16] <rickfosb> yea, they (we) all start out strong and then life happens
[21:16] <godbyk> ...Or find a way for anyone to easily do that drive-by editing/writing.
[21:16] <c7p> godbyk: +1
[21:17] <c7p> on this subject Kevin i think we can deploy google docs
[21:17] <c7p> it's online, it's easy
[21:17] <rickfosb> I really like the pdf site as a way to get people to help out.  Especially if one of our ubuntu members (hint) could post to the planet every so often
[21:17] <godbyk> At some point we should probably survey our team members and get an idea of what does prevent them from helping.  Is our tool chain too cumbersome?  Do they just not have time? Are all the tasks too boring?
[21:17] <c7p> or any relevant service*
[21:18] <rickfosb> Well, I like the tool chain; but I do find that I'm 'fixing' latex after a revision from some of the authors... like they don't run make...
[21:19] <ChrisWoollard> That has always been an issue
[21:19] <rickfosb> so it may be an issue for some =-- tool chain that is
[21:19] <ChrisWoollard> I have been doing the same
[21:20] <c7p> i think we need one who will be in charge of this getting new people, motivating them, getting feedback from them etc
[21:20] <rickfosb> so, if we used google docs; or a pdf annotation tool, and did continuous outreach.... that might help us make the major revisions on time...
[21:20] <godbyk> Would it be better if there were a two-stage editing process then?  Something more accessible (wiki, Google docs, Etherpad) that the authors and editors could work with.  Then another stage for the LaTeX geeks to handle the nit-picky LaTeX markup and layout?
[21:21] <rickfosb> Maybe reach some of the folks who are making the code changes to annotate
[21:21] <rickfosb> godbyk +1
[21:21] <c7p> +!
[21:21] <c7p> +1
[21:22] <rickfosb> c7p is really excited about it  ;)
[21:22] <c7p> i can handle the Latex markup
[21:22] <ChrisWoollard> +1 I think
[21:22] <c7p> xD
[21:23] <ChrisWoollard> What would happen if once the google doc had been latexed and the author wanted to make changes?
[21:23] <rickfosb> The trick with two stage is keeping the updates linear... I've had that problem when getting text in the same chapter from multiple sources...
[21:23] <rickfosb> exactly ChrisWoollard
[21:23] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I think after it was LaTeX'd, the changes should be noted on the PDF and the LaTeX editors would make them.  (We'd also need to track the changes in the original doc for future versions, too, I guess.)
[21:24] <c7p> btw i want to share something with you
[21:24] <rickfosb> back to our current toolchain to help with version control...
[21:24] <godbyk> It seemed like there was also a problem figure out what we needed to update and write about this time, too.  Maybe there should be some initial meetings where we do some research and establish a clear and detailed outline of what's new, what's different, etc. so we know exactly what needs to be written.
[21:25] <godbyk> Then the assignments to the authors could be more specific.
[21:26] <rickfosb> godbyk: agree,  since I'm not running a beta... i've no real clue..  guess I'll have to learn how to run two versions
[21:26] <ChrisWoollard> True
[21:26] <rickfosb> c7p was going to share? what?
[21:26] <ChrisWoollard> http://www.ubuntu.com/testing usually has release notes about what has changed
[21:26] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/testing usually has release notes about what has changed
[21:27] <rickfosb> I'll book mark that now (while I'm thinking about it)
[21:27] <c7p> rickfosb: i'm talking with the guys from the greek community that are involved to a community magazine. We have exactly the same problems as projects. EXACTLY !
[21:27] <c7p> people are leaving, the process of writing is too technical, project misses its goals etc
[21:28] <godbyk> c7p: that makes me feel a little better. :-)  have they found any solutions?
[21:28] <c7p> no we are searching :P
[21:28] <c7p> what i've concluded is that we have to keep the writing process as easy as possible
[21:29] <rickfosb> how about this; what is our goal here?  If we are just a printed version of help, then we're duplicating effort.  If the goal is to provide user friendly information, then maybe we've added too much content
[21:30] <c7p> also we have to motivate contributors constantly, everyone has little free time, but with no motivation, rewards people lose their passion
[21:30] <rickfosb> trim it down and point to online help when it gets 'too technical'
[21:30] <rickfosb> (I hear ya! c7p;  I could use a week off too! )
[21:31] <ChrisWoollard> As far as was aware we are aimed at non techies. So there shouldn't be anything to technical
[21:31] <godbyk> The original aim of the project was to produce a printed and bound book for new Ubuntu users.
[21:31] <c7p> rickfosb: the documentation for the too techy stuff exists but the process is still complex
[21:32] <godbyk> We assume that the readers have some basic computer knowledge (how to use a mouse and keyboard, etc.).
[21:32] <rickfosb> ChrisWoollard, has the document gotten to 'fat'?
[21:32] <rickfosb> *too
[21:32] <godbyk> The printed book aspect is important for new users because it's something they can scribble notes in as they learn, something they can set on their desk alongside them as they work through a procedure.
[21:33] <rickfosb> I like the book aspect; otherwise, why bother just do help.ubuntu...
[21:33] <ChrisWoollard> I don't think the size has changed much. 154 pages is quite slim really
[21:33] <godbyk> We actually have fewer pages now, but I think the bulk of that change is because I shrank the screenshots.
[21:34] <rickfosb> ChrisWoollard, if we keep the same structure then (chapters) and target LTS releases, and significant interim releases, is that doable (given a constant flow of help)
[21:34] <c7p> i think we have to rethink the whole content of the manual, but it's not subject now. we have to look on it of course later
[21:35] <c7p> on a coming meeting
[21:35] <rickfosb> ok
[21:35] <godbyk> Right now we have a couple topics that are somewhat conflated:
[21:35] <godbyk> (1) Do we cancel the Natty release in favor of starting work on the Oneiric release (so it can be published on time)?
[21:36] <godbyk> (2) What can we do to improve our workflow and project's chance of success.
[21:36] <rickfosb> I'm inclined to vote yea on item 1
[21:37] <godbyk> I'm loathe to take a vote with so few voters, but at this point, I think we're the only active project members. :-/
[21:37] <rickfosb> #2 (I like providing content for the 'world' to comment on and let us do the latex)
[21:37] <ChrisWoollard> (1) +1
[21:38] <rickfosb> godbyk +1  I know
[21:38] <godbyk> I'm also inclined to vote +1 to canceling the Natty release and moving straight to Oneiric.
[21:38] <c7p> me too
[21:39] <godbyk> I guess we can make it official...
[21:39] <c7p> even if we don't have enough authors i have the time and energy to pull this release
[21:39] <godbyk> [VOTE] Cancel the Natty release and move on to the Oneiric cycle.
[21:39] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Cancel the Natty release and move on to the Oneiric cycle..
[21:39] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[21:39] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-manual
[21:39] <ChrisWoollard> +1
[21:39] <MootBot> +1 received from ChrisWoollard. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[21:39] <c7p> +1
[21:39] <rickfosb> +1
[21:39] <MootBot> +1 received from c7p. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[21:39] <MootBot> +1 received from rickfosb. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[21:39] <godbyk> +1
[21:39] <MootBot> +1 received from godbyk. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[21:40] <godbyk> I think that's all of us, right?
[21:40] <rickfosb> yes
[21:40] <godbyk> [AGREED] Cancel the Natty release and move on to the Oneiric cycle.
[21:40] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Cancel the Natty release and move on to the Oneiric cycle.
[21:40] <godbyk> (I'm not sure if that closed the voting or not. I hope so.)
[21:41] <rickfosb> what is the release Date for Oneiric
[21:41] <rickfosb> +1
[21:41] <rickfosb> yep
[21:41] <godbyk> October 13.
[21:41] <ChrisWoollard> 13th October
[21:41] <godbyk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule
[21:42] <godbyk> We've already passed the UI freeze date, so things should be fairly settled.
[21:42] <rickfosb> So we go through the release notes and try to get the natty text updated?
[21:42] <godbyk> If you're not already, you might wish to subscribe to the ubuntu-docs mailing list.  They send UI freeze exception requests to that list so you can track the things that are still in flux.
[21:42] <ChrisWoollard> Godbyk: Can you transfer the natty branch to a new oneric one?
[21:43] <c7p> i'm from 11.10 now, i can track all the changes that need to be done
[21:43] <godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Yeah, I can set up the bzr branch.
[21:43] <c7p> good
[21:44] <godbyk> What was remaining on the to do list for the Natty release?
[21:44] <godbyk> We'll need to transfer those items over.
[21:44] <ChrisWoollard> Not sure, but I did think that some editting was required
[21:44] <c7p> i will make a complete todo list maybe tomorrow, by tracking the changes
[21:44] <godbyk> And we should get a few people to read through the various parts of the manual and ensure that they're up to date with Onieric.
[21:45] <godbyk> (That, in my mind, involves reading a section and clicking on whatever it says to click on.. ensuring that the text is the same and that the process still works as written.)
[21:45] <c7p> godbyk: +1, the tool that you shared with us would totally help us
[21:46] <godbyk> c7p: Once I get the oneiric branch created, I'll upload a new 11.10 PDF and we can start passing the link around.
[21:46] <rickfosb> Reading the worksheet; the last three chapters showed lots of potential changes; but I never saw revisions to indicate that they'd actually done them.
[21:46] <rickfosb> c7p +1
[21:46] <rickfosb> i mean godbyk +1
[21:48] <rickfosb> ChrisWoollard do you post your blog to planet ubuntu?  I've seen your name.. might help once we get the link to the pdf to get the word out?
[21:48] <ChrisWoollard> I do sometimes. It is my choice if it goes there
[21:49] <ChrisWoollard> just tell me what you want and i can arrange it
[21:50] <rickfosb> ChrisWoollard thanks!  I think once we get the branch built, and the first pdf built, we might want to blog about what we're up to... get a bigger audience?
[21:50] <rickfosb> rickfosb is shamelessly using ChrisWoollard
[21:50] <ChrisWoollard> np
[21:51] <c7p> i think we must have the 11.10 pdf in a good status before sharing it with the planet
[21:51] <rickfosb> I would agree to that... talk about a firestorm.. :-))
[21:51] <godbyk> heh.. no doubt!
[21:52] <c7p> maybe we can share every chapter when it's almost finished
[21:52] <rickfosb> the vote may not be closed; I have a private message that I already voted
[21:52] <rickfosb> smile
[21:54] <rickfosb> c7p; just take the pdf by chapter?
[21:54] <c7p> :D, nevermind, the decision has been taken. the bot wants to sabotage us
[21:54] <godbyk> We've been writing and editing the chapters in parallel, not in serial.
[21:55] <godbyk> So we haven't all been focusing on, say, chapter 2 until it was finished and then moving on to chapter 3.
[21:55] <c7p> yeah, i'm talking for the sharing the pdfs for proofread and comments before the mani release of the whole book
[21:55] <rickfosb> I think 1 - 3 are in decent shape;  we'd need to review the release notes. not sure about the screen shots
[21:55] <rickfosb> Most are done, I thought;
[21:56] <c7p> i think so
[21:57] <rickfosb> godbyk, when do you think you could have time to create the new branch?
[21:57] <godbyk> rickfosb: I can probably get it done later today.
[21:58] <c7p> cool
[21:58] <rickfosb> After the meeting, I'll work up an email to ubuntu-manual and let them know what we're up to, along with the raw meeting log, etc.
[21:58] <godbyk> 'kay
[21:58] <c7p> are we done ?
[21:59] <c7p> have we finished*
[21:59] <rickfosb> Once you get the pdf location arranged,,, is that something that any of us could upload, or would that be you after a bzr revision?
[22:00] <godbyk> rickfosb: Well, I figured I'd change the version number in the PDF to reflect 11.10 instead of 11.04 before uploading it.
[22:00] <rickfosb> yes sir.
[22:00] <godbyk> Otherwise, anyone can upload a PDF to the site (it's free) and share the link.
[22:01] <c7p> i'm happy that some things have been set in order
[22:01] <rickfosb> Its not to hard to do global search and replace on the chapters to fix the other version numbers... and names...
[22:01] <c7p> rickfosb: this have to be done on all tex files
[22:02] <c7p> if the branch will be up tomorrow, we have to do a lot of work :P
[22:02] <rickfosb> yes.. I've been using vi or gvim and stepping through the chapters when I found a global that needed work
[22:02] <c7p> nice
[22:02] <godbyk> I'll send you guys an email as soon as I get the branch created.  I'll also upload a PDF to that site and give you the link to it.
[22:02] <rickfosb> ok, what else tonight?
[22:03] <rickfosb> godbyk Great!
[22:03] <c7p> great all
[22:03] <godbyk> Something else I think we should do soonish it to create a simple, informal survey and email it to the list.
[22:04] <c7p> survey for what ?
[22:04] <godbyk> I'd like to get feedback from the team members to see how we can get them involved again, why they're not actively participating at the moment, how we can make things easier, etc.
[22:04] <rickfosb> godbyk; I'll put that in my email to the team!
[22:04] <rickfosb> if you want?
[22:05] <godbyk> rickfosb: sure!
[22:05] <c7p> so rickfosb will handle the survey ?
[22:05] <rickfosb> (its text... so not a 'formal' survey)
[22:05] <godbyk> I can rattle of a bunch of random questions I have for the team if you like.
[22:05] <rickfosb> did you have something else in mind?
[22:05] <rickfosb> perfect!
[22:06] <godbyk> I was thinking of just asking some rather open-ended questions and get some free-form answers.
[22:06] <godbyk> Nothing scientific or anything formal.
[22:06] <godbyk> I just want a better idea of where the sticking points are.
[22:06] <c7p> neat
[22:06] <rickfosb> you want to think about it and email me?  I'll do the email tomorrow
[22:07] <godbyk> rickfosb: that sounds like a plan.
[22:07] <rickfosb> cool, I'll use your email as my "go" to email the team
[22:07] <c7p> btw if that helps you, you can use forms from g docs
[22:07] <godbyk> 'kay.
[22:08] <c7p> thank you all
[22:08] <godbyk> c7p: that's not a bad idea. then all the responses can go in a spreadsheet that we can share.
[22:08] <rickfosb> forms?
[22:08] <c7p> godbyk: yeah you dont have to organize them :)
[22:09] <c7p> check goole docs, go create > forms
[22:09] <rickfosb> wow!  I never used a form... that alright
[22:09] <rickfosb> thanks!
[22:09] <c7p> create new*
[22:09] <c7p> g2g see you soon
[22:09] <godbyk> thanks for coming, c7p!
[22:10] <c7p> i hope to come up with the list of what needs to be done for 11.10 tomorrow or the day after tomorrow
[22:10] <rickfosb> see you and thanks c7p
[22:11] <rickfosb> godbyk, ChrisWoollard, any thing else tonight?
[22:11] <ChrisWoollard> not that i can think of
[22:11] <godbyk> rickfosb: not that I can think of
[22:11] <rickfosb> despite this, I am enjoying working with you guys
[22:12] <rickfosb> i'm looking forward to the pdf annotations;
[22:12] <godbyk> Guess I should do this before I forget...
[22:12] <godbyk> #endmeeting.
[22:12] <godbyk> #endmeeting
[22:12] <MootBot> Vote is in progress. Finishing now.
[22:12] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[22:12] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:12.
[22:12] <ChrisWoollard> :)
[22:12] <rickfosb> have a good evening, then.
[22:13] <rickfosb> :)
[22:13] <godbyk> Mootbot gets irked if you forget to end the meeting. :)