[00:01] <jasoncwarner_> robert_ancell and htorque that seemed to make a huge diff
[00:01] <jasoncwarner_> http://paste.ubuntu.com/694113/ u-g log
[00:01] <jasoncwarner_> I still had no mouse movement at the beginning...but that was for a second or two (which I think was X catching up)
[00:09] <mdeslaur> This is weird: bug 855171
[00:09] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 855171 in ca-certificates "libnss3.so went missing after upgrade" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/855171
[00:09] <mdeslaur> whoops, wrong channel
[00:36] <bryceh> jasoncwarner_, excellent, thanks for confirming that
[01:33] <cyphermox> hmm
[01:35] <cyphermox> would adding GNOME to NotShowIn cover just the Gnome Shell cases, or also break fallback and others? :)
[01:38] <jbicha> GNOME is Shell & Fallback
[01:41] <cyphermox> jbicha: yeah, that's the problem probably ;)
[01:41] <cyphermox> going to test this now
[01:42] <jbicha> like gnome-datetime-panel.desktop shows in Fallback g-c-c but it's OnlyShowIn=Gnome;
[01:43] <jbicha> echo $XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP
[01:45] <cyphermox> oh, I know about all of this, just "saying out loud" that I'm pretty much screwed either way
[01:46] <cyphermox> jbicha: see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager-applet/+bug/852961 :)
[01:46] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 852961 in network-manager-applet "nm-applet is wrongly started with Gnome Shell" [Undecided,New]
[01:47] <cyphermox> I can't add it to NotShowIn without breaking something, and if I don't add it, something's still going to be broken
[01:47] <cyphermox> but I think Shell > fallback; so I'll add it.
[01:48] <jbicha> but I don't have nm-applet in my Shell session, just Fallback or Unity
[01:48] <stgraber> cyphermox: shell isn't shipped by default by a derivative...
[01:48] <cyphermox> really?
[01:48] <cyphermox> also, really?
[01:48] <cyphermox> gah
[01:48] <cyphermox> stgraber: so edubuntu ships fallback?
[01:48] <stgraber> cyphermox: fallback is an option at install time in edubuntu
[01:48] <cyphermox> mkay
[01:48] <jbicha> my notifications area is blank on new start & I have the normal Shell network menu
[01:49] <cyphermox> jbicha: that's weird
[01:49] <cyphermox> why would this bug be open then?
[01:49] <jbicha> perhaps he's using an old shell version
[01:49] <cyphermox> maybe
[01:50] <cyphermox> alright, thanks for clearing that up
[01:55] <jbicha> oh wait, he sees notifications in both shell style & an uglier style when the network disconnects for instance
[01:55] <jbicha> I can duplicate that
[02:00] <cyphermox> oh
[02:00] <cyphermox> well then yeah, this is because nm-applet is getting started
[02:00] <cyphermox> fixing this is going to be painful, because we're obviously limited by what's being run
[02:00] <cyphermox> and shell / fallback sharing the same desktop value doesn't help
[02:01] <jbicha> I think gnome-shell uses nm-applet, just with a different frontend
[02:01] <cyphermox> jbicha: no
[02:01] <cyphermox> it uses its own frontend in js
[02:01] <jbicha> also the latest gnome-shell (not in the archives yet) doesn't show network notifications for connections/disconnections
[02:01] <cyphermox> mkay
[02:01] <jbicha> so it's at least visually fixed with that
[02:02] <cyphermox> urgh
[02:02] <cyphermox> is that going to be shipped?
[02:02] <jbicha> just waiting for GNOME to get around to releasing the new gjs which gnome-shell silently depends on
[02:03]  * cyphermox cries
[02:03] <cyphermox> I just won't touch this and sleep on the issue
[02:03] <jbicha> they just assume that you're going to be using the latest gjs & mutter & don't bother updating the configure.ac to reflect that
[02:20] <broder> cyphermox: i thought i remembered dcbw saying that nm-applet didn't actually provide ui with shell these days
[02:21] <cyphermox> broder that's what I remember too
[02:21] <cyphermox> nm-applet shouldn't be running in shell, that's most likely the problem because it currently gets started in /etc/xdg/autostart
[02:21] <broder> cyphermox: no, no - i thought he said it runs but only does...something minor and invisible
[02:22] <cyphermox> broder: maybe
[02:23] <cyphermox> AIUI it's just used for the wireless/mobile dialogs
[02:23] <cyphermox> something that might be fixed by the new n-m-applet package with libnm-gtk split out
[02:23] <broder> cyphermox: http://paste.ubuntu.com/694185/ - from about a week ago
[02:24] <cyphermox> right
[02:24] <cyphermox> I'll need to setup something with gnome-shell and mess around with it to see
[02:24] <broder> oh, it sounds like maybe the only problem is notifications?
[02:25] <jbicha> broder: yes I believe so
[02:26] <cyphermox> sounds like it now
[02:26] <cyphermox> jbicha: I just updated the bug, could you try figuring out what sends the notifcation that looks wrong?
[02:27] <cyphermox> or if they have a different text, just a screenshot of each may be enough :)
[02:27] <broder> we don't patch how nm-applet does its notifications - how would this not be broken anywhere that's using gnome-shell?
[02:28] <jbicha> I expect that Fedora would have the same problem
[02:29] <broder> err...wait, i was looking at n-m, not nm-applet :)
[02:30] <cyphermox> broder: actually, I think it was lightly patched, but I don't think it would affect this
[02:30] <cyphermox> it might be caused by differences in the notification themes, I've seen something getting broken in notifications if I install xubuntu-desktop on top of ubuntu-desktop, notifications start looking different, getting buttons, etc.
[02:31] <broder> is gnome-shell a notification daemon? i guess...if notify-osd grabbed the dbus name, but gnome-shell short-circuited notifications internally to keep them from hitting dbus...
[02:32] <jbicha> when I try to connect to a random encrypted wifi network, I get 2 popups to enter the password, one from gs, one from nm-applet
[02:33] <cyphermox> yuck
[02:33] <jbicha> not sure if the second one is just because I canceled the first one though
[02:33] <broder> dcbw said that should happen around gnome 3.2 or so - is that what we're at at this point?
[02:33] <cyphermox> pretty much
[02:34] <cyphermox> "should" happen?
[02:34] <jbicha> we're on 3.1.90 and current is 3.1.92 though
[02:35] <broder> well...gnome-shell definitely looks like it ships a secret agent
[02:36] <broder> (look at src/shell-network-agent.{h,c} and js/ui/networkAgent.js)
[02:37] <jbicha> cyphermox: getting screenshots is a bit tricky since this is my web connection :)
[02:37] <jbicha> I'm going to reboot into Fedora
[02:37] <cyphermox> ok
[02:37] <cyphermox> broder: jbicha: I really should be going to bed
[02:38] <jbicha> ok, it's not a big issue anyway
[02:38] <broder> jbicha: does gnome-shell set any useful environment variables so we could patch nm-applet to check those and exit immediately if they're set?
[02:38] <cyphermox> you want to ping me if you find something ? :)
[02:38] <cyphermox> you guys seem to be getting more progress than I do
[02:38] <broder> cyphermox: it looks to me like nm-applet just shouldn't be running under gnome-shell anymore
[02:39] <jbicha> I think you could sniff dbus to check if you're in gshell or not
[02:40] <cyphermox> broder: I kind of got that feeling but I think you still need it for some dialogs at least
[02:41] <broder> cyphermox: does nm-applet (not nm-connection-editor) do anything besides secret prompts?
[02:41] <cyphermox> broder: that no, I don't think so
[02:42] <broder> cyphermox: then just have nm-applet exit(0) if it's running under gnome-shell...however you determine that
[02:42] <cyphermox> not sure how the more complex wifi connections are done
[02:43] <broder> well, i've got an oneiric machine, and infrastructure for 802.1x and wpa enterprise , so i can try to do some experimentation at some point
[02:44] <broder> but from my quick skim of the gnome-shell code, i see code for 802.1x, PPPoE, and modem connections
[02:44] <broder> only thing i don't see offhand is vpn
[02:45] <cyphermox> I'll look again in the morning
[02:50] <jbicha> Fedora 16 doesn't show notifications for nm-applet so they only have the enter wifi password double dialog part of the bug
[02:59] <cyphermox> ok
[03:00] <cyphermox> maybe it's caused by one of those old patches we carry and I keep having to fix
[03:02] <jbicha> well I think we want connection notifications in Unity though
[03:09] <cyphermox> yeah
[03:11] <cyphermox> jbicha: which still means there is no easy fix, I'll setup gnome-shell tomorrow on my system and try to make sense of what sends what
[08:03] <kamstrup> mvo: morning - I need you help on some popcon related stuff
[08:03] <kamstrup> mvo: how is the #stars computed from the popcon rating?
[08:04] <kamstrup> digging through the S-C code only confused me more :-)
[08:04] <kamstrup> my guess is that we normalize the score with the "max_popcon_desktop" metadata from the xapian index and multiply by 5... but I can't find that calculation anywhere
[08:06] <kamstrup> also, I am not sure whether that makes sense at all :-)
[08:07] <seb128> hey
[08:08] <pitti> bonjour seb128
[08:08] <seb128> hey pitti, how are you?
[08:09] <pitti> seb128: furiously debugging ubiquity problems :)
[08:09] <pitti> quite well, thanks
[08:09] <pitti> just really concerned about the release time now
[08:09] <seb128> pitti, "fun" ;-)
[08:09] <seb128> is it worth testing the installer?
[08:09] <seb128> or is it "known buggy"?
[08:09] <pitti> it crashes if you are offline
[08:10] <pitti> should work fine, just look a bit ugly if you are online and don't use the live session
[08:10] <pitti> so, still worth testing if you want to
[08:10] <mvo> kamstrup: *pfff* ;) we don't use the popcon for the stars, we use the ratings data
[08:10] <mvo> kamstrup: what is the use-case, do you want to show it in unity?
[08:10] <kamstrup> mvo: lol, that explains my inability to find it :-D
[08:10] <seb128> pitti, let's see, I usually use the 10v as a test box and the wifi doesn't work out of the box
[08:11] <kamstrup> mvo: the dash allows you to filter by the S-C rating
[08:11] <kamstrup> mvo: so it's not in the xapian index?
[08:11] <pitti> seb128: right, it'd fail there, unless you have an ethernet cable plugged in
[08:11] <pitti> I did a test install on that one yesterday, with success
[08:12] <kamstrup> mvo: hit super-a and unfold the "Filter results" expander, and you'll see what I mean
[08:12] <mvo> kamstrup: no, because its so dynamic. we store it currently in a extra file
[08:13] <mvo> kamstrup: but that sounds like that needs some re-thinking
[08:13] <kamstrup> mvo: a fudge...
[08:13] <kamstrup> mvo: yeah, probably means we need to pull that feature from the dash...
[08:13] <rodrigo_> oh, everyone back :)
[08:13] <mvo> kamstrup: aha, I was totally unaware of this feature in the dash
[08:13] <rodrigo_> there were only 20 people or so when I woke up, I guess freenode had problems?
[08:14] <kamstrup> mvo: yeah, it's not exactly a prominent place, hidden away inside the expander
[08:14] <pitti> rodrigo_: yes, it did; should be fixed now, though
[08:15] <mvo> kamstrup: so we currently use a xapian.KeyMaker and throw that as the sorter to the db
[08:15] <seb128> robert_ancell, hey
[08:15] <seb128> robert_ancell, what are you still doing online? ;-)
[08:15] <robert_ancell> seb128, hey, just logged on to bug you...
[08:15] <kamstrup> mvo: ah, so a KeyMaker that pulls the ratings from the file in order to generate the collation key?
[08:15] <seb128> robert_ancell, oh great, it has been a while I didn't catch you (part due to the fact I was on holidays ;-)
[08:15] <mvo> kamstrup: and the review stats (star rating plus wilson-score based "score" of the ratings) are stored in a pythin pickle
[08:15] <mvo> kamstrup: yeah
[08:15] <seb128> robert_ancell, what's up?
[08:16] <robert_ancell> seb128, can you try / find victims to try lightdm + unity-greeter master today and check they're good?  I've been using them today, and I think everything's ok, but being this close to release a second opinion would be good
[08:16] <kamstrup> mvo: hehe, a pickle, that puts me in a pickle (wow, worst pun ever)
[08:16] <mvo> kamstrup: now of course we can make this a c++ friendlier format for you, thats easy
[08:16] <mvo> kamstrup: lol, indeed
[08:16] <seb128> robert_ancell, I'm happy to test those
[08:16] <seb128> robert_ancell, did you see the translation bug I commented on?
[08:16] <mvo> kamstrup: if this software stuff does not work out, just do standup commedy ;)
[08:17] <robert_ancell> seb128, there's one remaining bug 845549 which I had a solution for but a commenter says it should be done better with the alternatives.  So could you follow up on those changes then undo mine if they're better
[08:17] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 845549 in lightdm "Do not ship /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/845549
[08:17] <kamstrup> mvo: out only option is prettymuch json I guess... but I don'tknow if that kills performance... I gues it'll be a very large file
[08:17] <seb128> robert_ancell, ok
[08:18] <mvo> kamstrup: would a libdb format work for you too?
[08:18] <robert_ancell> seb128, yes, I fixed that.  it was gettext not being initialized correctly
[08:18] <seb128> robert_ancell, great
[08:18] <kamstrup> mvo: libdb? you mean bdb, or?
[08:18] <seb128> robert_ancell, ok, I will test both trunks, review open bugs and drop you an email at the end of my day
[08:18] <robert_ancell> seb128, there will still be bugs with PAM messages not being localized, but they're more unlikely to occur
[08:18] <mvo> kamstrup: yeah
[08:19] <robert_ancell> seb128, thanks!
[08:19] <seb128> robert_ancell, yw, great job btw, lightdm really works great for me ;-)
[08:19] <kamstrup> mvo: do we ship a bdb lib on the cd?
[08:19] <seb128> well the current version does, let's see trunk :p
[08:19] <robert_ancell> seb128, :)
[08:20] <robert_ancell> seb128, There's still more bugs cropping up, but I think we're on top of the most important ones.
[08:20] <mvo> kamstrup: need to check, I can also play a bit with json. alternatively I could provide you a dbus service
[08:20] <mvo> kamstrup: but that does not is speedy enough I guess
[08:20] <kamstrup> mvo: hmm, we can't depend on a running s-c
[08:20] <seb128> robert_ancell, yeah, I've not seen a lot of "important to fix for oneiric" ones, out of the ones assigned to you
[08:21] <seb128> robert_ancell, I will review the bugs today though just to be sure
[08:21] <kamstrup> mvo: json is easy, but scares me because I've seen how slow it is in gwibber
[08:21] <mvo> kamstrup: it would be something extra, not part of main s-c, but its probably a bad idea even then
[08:21] <mvo> kamstrup: yeah, exactly
[08:21] <kamstrup> mvo: it takes >1s 100% CPU churn to parse ~1k messages in gwibber
[08:21] <mvo> kamstrup: s-c is already pretty slow to startup, I don't want to make it worse :/
[08:21] <kamstrup> granted, that's some complex json, but still
[08:22] <kamstrup> mvo: lol, right :-)
[08:22] <robert_ancell> seb128, thanks.  there will be some things that will be annoying, but I guess we can put in the release notes "use gdm if this particular feature is important" (assuming it works in GDM)
[08:22] <kamstrup> mvo: a mmap()able db format should make it faster than a pickle for S-C as well I guess
[08:23] <mvo> kamstrup: let me check the CD to see if dbm might work, we just need to be careful with the layout so that there are no interoperatable issue. but I think that should be ok as the data is really just a mapping of str -> (int, int, int)
[08:23] <kamstrup> mvo: yeah, sounds fit for a keystore
[08:24] <seb128> robert_ancell, right
[08:24] <mvo> kamstrup: I think for next cycle we need to talk some more and we need to provide you proper APIs
[08:26] <kamstrup> mvo: I have libdb5.1 providing /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libdb-5.1.so here... i don't know if that's on the cd...
[08:26] <kamstrup> but i guess so
[08:28] <robert_ancell> jasoncwarner_, so bug 828112 is fixed?  Using packages from the standard repos?
[08:28] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 828112 in unity-greeter "Password field feedback slow at times" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/828112
[08:28] <mvo> kamstrup: both 4.8 and 5.1 are installed for me on the live-cd so we should be fine
[08:29] <seb128> robert_ancell, the updates I mentioned there are not in the standard repo but in the ubuntu-desktop ppa
[08:29] <robert_ancell> seb128, is there a bug I can merge this with?
[08:30] <jasoncwarner_> robert_ancell: I had to manually create an /etc/X11/xorg.conf file to stop the HDMI probe
[08:32] <pitti> robert_ancell: right, we need a wrapper around gnome-session for the lightdm guest account that we can hook the AA profile to
[08:32] <robert_ancell> pitti, yeah, annoying!
[08:32] <pitti> robert_ancell: but that can be a simple two-liner (she-bang and exec gnome-session "$@"), as in gdm
[08:33] <pitti> jjardon: good morning
[08:33] <pitti> jjardon: out of interest, what's the advantage of i-power talking to gnome-settings-daemon instead of upower directly?
[08:33] <robert_ancell> pitti, right, but there's no concept of sticking one in in lightdm, so we need to work out the right place to do it
[08:34] <kamstrup> mvo: ok, cool. I've no idea, but I assume we should use 5.1...
[08:37] <seb128> jasoncwarner_, bug #855350 is the bug dholbach opened about the output probbing issue
[08:37] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 855350 in xorg "long reprobes slow down boot/login" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/855350
[08:38] <seb128> jasoncwarner_, if you want to comment on it
[08:42] <jjardon> pitti: gnome-settings-daemon parse all the devices info for me, so I get a list of available devices with all their info only with a dbus call
[08:42] <pitti> jjardon: that makes it slightly dependent on GNOME, though?
[08:43] <pitti> jjardon: I just noticed because I'm currently debugging bug 854717, and it's indicator-power which dbus-launches g-s-d
[08:43] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 854717 in ubiquity "Broken panel icons and dialog style during ubiquity-dm and OEM install/final user configuration" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/854717
[08:43] <pitti> (a broken g-s-d)
[08:43] <pitti> jjardon: that's not directly i-power's fault, of course, but it made me wonder why it uses g-s-d
[08:44] <chrisccoulson_> RAOF, Sarvatt - is the eDP slowness likely to affect changing the screen brightness via xrandr?
[08:44] <chrisccoulson_> i noticed this morning that the new kernel fixes a huge lag i was also seeing when adjusting the brightnes
[08:44] <chrisccoulson_> s
[08:45] <chrisccoulson_> unless that's just my imagination ;)
[08:45] <pitti> chrisccoulson_: if xrandr --verbose contains a "BACKLIGHT", then we are using xrandr calls for the brightness keys, yes
[08:45] <pitti> the old gnome-power-manager had a fallback to poke the values into the ACPI files in /proc/, but I guess that's gone these days
[08:46] <pitti> we now rely on the XBACKLIGHT extension, which I believe goes through XRandR
[08:46] <pitti> (I have no idea where this ends up at the kernel level, though)
[08:46] <chrisccoulson> pitti - oh, no BACKLIGHT on my machine here :/
[08:46] <jjardon> pitti: well, gsd is a core part of GNOME, I really do not think that you can run a Unity session without it. Also, I'd have to duplicate a lot of code that Its already in gsd, so I chooosed to use gsd directly
[08:46] <pitti> jjardon: I mean for XFCE and the like
[08:47] <pitti> jjardon: I was just wondering if g-s-d's power module provides any functionality which upower doesn't, or whether it just offers a more convenient API
[08:47] <jjardon> pitti: XFCE has is own power indicator
[08:47] <pitti> because if g-s-d is adding functionality, I'd rather move that down to upower
[08:49] <jasoncwarner_> seb128 and didrocks, can I reschedule our talks tonight? have a conflicting music lens discussion at the same time...
[08:49] <didrocks> jasoncwarner_: sure
[08:49] <seb128> jasoncwarner_, "no" ;-)
[08:51] <jjardon> pitti: gsd uses upower to get all the info about power devices. It parses it and you get all the info with a dbus call. So, yes, It's a much more convenience api and you save a lot of code
[08:53] <pitti> jjardon: fun, I thought it would be a lot more convenient to use e. g. up_client_get_devices() and teh libupower-glib API than fiddling with dbus calls yourself
[08:53] <pitti> jjardon: so if libupower-glib sohuld have an API that you would like to have and is missing, I'm still interested in hearing about it; we can just add it
[08:53] <jasoncwarner_> hmmm...is mumble not working for anyone else right now? setting up on my recent reinstall and it hangs configuring it...have to force quit it...
[08:54] <pitti> jasoncwarner_: WFM
[08:54] <seb128> jasoncwarner_, works here
[08:55] <mvo> kamstrup: proof of concept lp:~mvo/software-center/review-stats-as-dbm-for-unity-with-best-regards
[08:55] <pitti> jjardon: we just noticed that we can't use indicator-power in ubiquity-dm for that reason (see my last comment on bug 854717)
[08:55] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 854717 in ubiquity "Broken panel icons and dialog style during ubiquity-dm and OEM install/final user configuration" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/854717
[08:55] <jjardon> pitti: sure. have to go now, I'll follow the discussion later ;)
[08:55] <mvo> kamstrup: exports (iii) ratings_average, ratings_total, dampended_rating, the last one is what you want to use as the key, its calculated using a wilson score on the ratings spread
[08:56] <mvo> kamstrup: well, I guess not necssarily, depends on your UI needs, but that is what we use
[08:58] <mvo> kamstrup: I guess it would be nice to export it to a tool for you too so that you can trigger updates on the stats yourself instead of relying on s-c doing it
[09:00] <kamstrup> mvo: I don't think generally the dash should cause changes to local data
[09:00] <kamstrup> mvo: it's for lookups and access
[09:01] <mvo> 'k
[09:01] <kamstrup> mvo: usage logging hapens indirectly via zeitgeist then
[09:01] <mvo> kamstrup: if you need the review spread (10 x 1 star, 4 x 2 stars) etc, just let me know, that can be added as well
[09:02] <kamstrup> mvo: ok - not for O definitely
[09:02] <mvo> kamstrup: and we might need a bugreport if that should make it into the archive for reference for the release team, uploads are hand-approved currently
[09:03] <kamstrup> mvo: ok...
[09:03] <kamstrup> mvo: what format do you want to use for the payload?
[09:03] <kamstrup> mvo: A GVariant "(iii)" would be extraordinarily handy for me :-)
[09:04] <kamstrup> dunno how easy they are to serialize in Python though... lemme see
[09:05] <mvo> kamstrup: I already use python struct
[09:06] <mvo> kamstrup: so you should be able to just use something like struct { int , int, int } in your c(++) code
[09:06] <kamstrup> mvo: oh? you sure?
[09:07] <mvo> kamstrup: well, that is what the python struct module is all about, I haven't written a test C client for this yet, but it should just work(tm)
[09:08] <mvo> kamstrup: let me quickly verify this
[09:13] <davidcalle> pitti, or someone else, when is the new pygobject supposed to enter the archives?
[09:14] <pitti> davidcalle: 3.0.0? after b2
[09:15] <davidcalle> pitti, thanks, I'm worried about it. Looks like it makes python lenses segfault.
[09:15] <seb128> seems like a bug for kamstrup ;-)
[09:16] <pitti> davidcalle: that's why I didn't push it into b2 yet; I tested it with apport, jockey, software-center etc., but not with everything yet; I did notice a regression in gtimelog, but I got that fixed now
[09:16] <pitti> davidcalle: you can test it from the PPA, maybe you can get a stack trace and file a bug?
[09:17] <davidcalle> pitti, I'm on the PPA. I will file a bug, thanks.
[09:27] <kamstrup> davidcalle: you have the ppa url, I can debug the crasher
[09:28] <pitti> kamstrup: add-apt-repository ppa:ubuntu-desktop/ppa
[09:28] <kamstrup> pitti: thanks
[09:28] <pitti> kamstrup: you'll also get a faster startup from that, for bonus :)
[09:30] <pitti> jasoncwarner_: want to skip our 1-on-1, too?
[09:30] <davidcalle> kamstrup, thanks :) Was learning how to get stack traces.
[09:31]  * didrocks reboots
[09:35] <jasoncwarner_> pitti: I'm good for a bit if you have a couple of minutes...want to catch up on a couple quick things...
[09:36] <jasoncwarner_> i got mumble working as well (took a reboot)
[09:39] <didrocks> waow, that was… weird
[09:39] <didrocks> libnss3 package installed, but no /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libnss3.so
[09:40] <didrocks> network-manager and nm-applet didn't appreciate :)
[09:41] <geser> didrocks: see topic in #ubuntu-devel
[09:41] <didrocks> geser: argh, ok… thanks for the pointer
[09:45] <mpt> pitti, hi. If an application wants to discourage you from logging out or shutting down while it finishes a task (e.g. burning a CD, defragmenting a disk, installing a package), what's the appropriate way to do that? Is it a ConsoleKit API? (I tried reading the CK docs but didn't understand them)
[09:45] <chrisccoulson> mpt - gnome-session
[09:45] <chrisccoulson> that has an inhibit API
[09:46] <chrisccoulson> (for logging out, anyway)
[09:46] <mpt> chrisccoulson, ah, <http://live.gnome.org/SessionManagement/GnomeSession#A8._QueryEndSession>?
[09:46] <seb128> didrocks, mhr
[09:46] <chrisccoulson> for shutting down, i'm not sure if there is an inhibit API
[09:46] <seb128> didrocks, mhr3 and cyphermox got that bug as well this week
[09:47] <seb128> didrocks, cyphermox tried to figure why the file had been cleaned, not sure they figured it though
[09:47] <didrocks> yeah, seems ca-certificates being a little bit more too drastic in his pick :)
[09:47] <kamstrup> davidcalle: don't stop then :-)
[09:47] <didrocks> seb128: what geser told, topic of #ubuntu-devel
[09:47] <seb128> ok
[09:47] <kamstrup> davidcalle: did you have a bug report?
[09:47] <didrocks> ca-certificates eats system libraries, DO NOT UPDATE (bug #855171)
[09:47] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 855171 in nss "libnss3.so went missing after upgrade" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/855171
[09:47] <seb128> ;-)
[09:47] <seb128> I got lucky it didn't eat mine
[09:48] <didrocks> indeed, well, I just lost 3 minutes…
[09:48] <didrocks> fortunatly, I had it still in cache and --reinstall worked
[09:48] <davidcalle> kamstrup, I'm filing one in a few minutes.
[09:48] <didrocks> otherwise, I would have to hunt for an usb key, and that would have took more time :)
[09:49] <mpt> thanks chrisccoulson
[09:51] <seb128> stupid tb, stop marking the selected message as read when entering a mailbox! ;-)
[09:52] <davidcalle> kamstrup, https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/855402
[09:52] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 855402 in unity "Python lenses segfault with pygobject3" [Undecided,New]
[09:53] <kamstrup> davidcalle: tanks
[09:53] <kamstrup> thanks
[09:53] <didrocks> seb128: +1
[10:04] <rodrigo_> chrisccoulson, your g-s-d package is indeed much quicker
[10:05] <rodrigo_> chrisccoulson, I was looking though at making those patches upstreamable, and I think it would be better, for the share-the-gnome-rr-screen one, to have some code in gnome-settings-daemon/gnome-settings-daemon/gnome-settings-screen.[ch] or something
[10:05] <chrisccoulson> rodrigo_, yeah, i planned to do it that way at some point
[10:05] <rodrigo_> that just returns a shared instance of GnomeRRScreen, instead of using the property on the GdkScreen
[10:05] <rodrigo_> chrisccoulson, ok, cool
[10:05] <chrisccoulson> yeah, that would probably be better actually
[10:05] <rodrigo_> chrisccoulson, I can do it if you want
[10:06] <chrisccoulson> rodrigo_, sure, feel free :)
[10:06] <chrisccoulson> i'll push the current branch to bzr in a moment
[10:06] <rodrigo_> about the media keys one, not 100% sure, so better to file a bug for hadess to review it
[10:06] <chrisccoulson> rodrigo_, did you see my notes on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/11.10/BootSpeedAnalysis ?
[10:07] <rodrigo_> chrisccoulson, no, looking
[10:08] <rodrigo_> chrisccoulson, yes, we can have the patches as they are for oneiric, I'll prepare the patch for git master
[10:08] <chrisccoulson> thanks :)
[10:09] <tjaalton> chrisccoulson: firefox sometimes opens tabs on a wrong window here, as if the focus is not on the window where I want it to be. known issue or not?
[10:10] <chrisccoulson> tjaalton, no, i've not seen that before. is this using compiz?
[10:10] <chrisccoulson> actually, i'm not sure if that would matter
[10:10] <tjaalton> chrisccoulson: yes, and happens only with fullscreen windows, it seems
[10:10] <chrisccoulson> how are you opening the new tab?
[10:10] <tjaalton> ctrl-t
[10:11] <chrisccoulson> that should open in the window that gets the event :/
[10:11] <tjaalton> well, all the kbd shortcuts end up in the wrong window, so ctrl-w might close tabs behind my back :)
[10:11] <chrisccoulson> i've seen focus issues with compiz like this ;)
[10:12] <chrisccoulson> eg, bug 838625
[10:12] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: speaking of which, did you upgrade using the ppa?
[10:12] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 838625 in compiz "Unpredictable focusing after switching viewports with the keyboard" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/838625
[10:12] <chrisccoulson> didrocks, yeah. i didn't see any issues afterwards
[10:12] <didrocks> great :-)
[10:14] <tjaalton> chrisccoulson: oh, if it's related to the stacking bug then I'll just wait for the updates
[10:14] <didrocks> tjaalton: you can try the ubuntu-desktop ppa
[10:14] <tjaalton> happens with fullscreen windows that are on separate viewports, one on top of the other
[10:14] <tjaalton> didrocks: ppa:ubuntu-desktop?
[10:14] <didrocks> tjaalton: ppa:ubuntu-desktop/ppa indeed :)
[10:15] <tjaalton> didrocks: thanks, adding
[10:15] <didrocks> tjaalton: keep us in touch :)
[10:15] <chrisccoulson> i should try the 3d session again to see if the stacking fixes fix the focus issues i was seeing too
[10:16] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: oh, you didn't try it? wasn't the purpose of installing the ppa :-)
[10:16] <tjaalton> it's possible to fix the focus by going to another viewport with a non-fullscreen ffox window
[10:16] <chrisccoulson> didrocks, yeah, i didn't notice any stacking issues (like, mouse clicks going to the wrong windows and the dash appearing underneath everything else)
[10:17] <chrisccoulson> but i didn't use it for long enough to see if there were other focus issues. i wasn't sure if that was all related to the stacking bugs
[10:26] <chrisccoulson> rodrigo_, i've pushed the gsd changes to bzr btw
[10:27] <chrisccoulson> remember also that there is a gnome-desktop change
[10:27] <rodrigo_> chrisccoulson, ok
[10:28] <rodrigo_> chrisccoulson, for the gnome-desktop change, I'll let you do the upstreaming :)
[10:28] <chrisccoulson> rodrigo_, sure, no problem
[10:31] <seb128> didrocks, can we drop your gwibber upload to the desktop ppa? it's the same version than oneiric and 2 weeks old
[10:32] <seb128> bah, tb
[10:32] <seb128> "Thunderbird is already running, but is not responding. To open a new window, you must first close the existing Thunderbird process, or restart your system."
[10:33] <didrocks> seb128: yes
[10:33] <seb128> didrocks, thanks
[10:33] <didrocks> yw
[10:44] <chrisccoulson> rodrigo_, gnome bug 659689
[10:44] <ubot2> Gnome bug 659689 in libgnome-desktop "gnome_rr_config_apply_from_filename_with_time does an unnecessary XRR roundtrip if the config file doesn't exist" [Normal,Unconfirmed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=659689
[10:44] <rodrigo_> chrisccoulson, ok thanks
[11:02] <jjardon> pitti: after some research, I think the best solution here is wait until the gsd dbus service is ready and then use it from indicator-power, so we do not have conflicts. Working on a patch
[11:05] <pitti> jjardon: i. e. not activate it yourself?
[11:06] <pitti> jjardon: we have an alternative proposal for ubiquity to start g-s-d earlier, wait for it to appear on the bus, and then start its panel
[11:06] <pitti> but of course the two don't exclude each other :)
[11:07] <jjardon> pitti: yeah. Use g_bus_watch_name() to start to use the service when It appears
[11:13] <chrisccoulson> gutted - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-14998964
[11:13] <chrisccoulson> just think of all that wasted cheese
[11:15] <seb128> hum, cheese! ;-)
[11:15] <seb128> well, uk cheese, it's probably not real cheese ;-)
[11:15] <didrocks> indeed, it's not cheese
[11:16] <didrocks> I tried that in Ireland, "white sheddar" looks like "gruyère"
[11:16] <didrocks> not at all the same on pasta :p
[11:16] <chrisccoulson> heh
[11:18] <seb128> chrisccoulson, will we get a stable tb before oneiric?
[11:18] <seb128> it's weird to be greeted by a "welcome to thunderbird beta" ;-)
[11:19] <chrisccoulson> seb128, yes ;)
[11:19] <seb128> great ;-)
[11:52] <jjardon> pitti: just committed this patch. Maybe you can verify that It solves the problem for you? http://paste.ubuntu.com/694409/
[11:52] <pitti> jjardon: you can link that to bug 854717, BTW
[11:52] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 854717 in ubiquity "Broken panel icons and dialog style during ubiquity-dm and OEM install/final user configuration" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/854717
[11:53] <pitti> jjardon: nice!
[11:53] <pitti> jjardon: once it's built, I can try that with an older ubiquity version, that'll double-check
[11:58] <jjardon> pitti: great :). Just added a comment to the bug pointing to the commit
[12:13] <rodrigo_> lunch, bbl
[12:20] <pitti> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/20110921.1/ up for testing
[12:21] <seb128> pitti, great
[12:36] <pitti> seb128, didrocks: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricOcelot/TechnicalOverview#Ubuntu_Desktop seems current to me; can you think of anything which we introduced after b1 which ought to be described?
[12:36] <pitti> didrocks: oh, oneconf perhaps?
[12:37] <didrocks> pitti: yeah, as syncing is now on, I can put a sentence about it
[12:37] <seb128> pitti, nothing I can think offhand but I will tell you if I figure one
[12:37] <didrocks> nothing for unity
[12:37]  * pitti will review our meeting pages
[12:38] <pitti> didrocks: I'll add CJK support for the dash search
[12:39] <pitti> hm, we really need to fix versions.py to take the unapproved queue into account
[12:39] <seb128> pitti, i've updated the etherpad for the todo list, but yes
[12:40] <seb128> looking into it
[12:40] <pitti> seb128: ooh, new g-i? /me grabs
[12:40] <seb128> it should check the queue but maybe it's only the new one, not "unapproved"
[12:40] <didrocks> pitti: indeed, adding
[12:40] <seb128> for upload in distro_series.getPackageUploads(status='Unapproved'):
[12:40] <seb128> no, it checks for Unapproved, weird
[12:40] <pitti> doing glib-network as well
[12:41] <seb128> pitti, danke
[12:43]  * didrocks doesn't like people getting a traceback, and then uploading it only after dist-upgrading…
[12:45] <seb128> didrocks, you hate users, just say it! ;-)
[12:45] <didrocks> seb128: you teached me so! :p
[12:46]  * didrocks looks if apt has the info of when the package was installed
[12:46] <didrocks> maybe apport can check the timestamp in /var/crash and when the package was installed
[12:46] <seb128> didrocks, what do you try to prevent? apport should not let you report bugs where the versions listed are outdated
[12:47] <pitti> didrocks: yes, that's been on my TODO list for quite long, I  hope I can do that in perky penguin
[12:47] <didrocks> seb128: basically, someone got a crash, then apt-get upgrade, then run apport to report the bug
[12:48] <seb128> retracing will fail for those usually, but yeah it creates noise
[12:48] <didrocks> seb128: apport will tell "I have the latest and greatest" and upload :)
[12:48] <didrocks> seb128: not on python!
[12:48] <didrocks> pitti: that would be excellent ;)
[12:48] <seb128> the ones I would really like to block is those happening at session closing and showing at next login ;-)
[12:48] <pitti> didrocks: this can be done cheaply with comparing the time stamp of the executable file at crash and at GUI time
[12:48] <didrocks> seb128: indeed
[12:48] <pitti> seb128: bug 460932, but need to sit down for a while to see how we can prevent it
[12:48] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 460932 in apport "Do not catch crashes which happen at logout" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460932
[12:48] <didrocks> pitti: hum? yeah, that's a cheap and nice idea :)
[12:49] <pitti> didrocks: faster than md5sum'ing etc.
[12:49] <didrocks> pitti: let me put that on my TODO
[12:49] <pitti> didrocks: bug 132904
[12:49] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 132904 in apport "Ignore crashes for running programs whose package got updated underneath" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/132904
[12:49] <pitti> didrocks: I'll assign it to me and tag it pet-bug
[12:49] <pitti> didrocks: one of my goals for next cycle is to fix pet-bugs again :)
[12:50] <didrocks> pitti: oh, a really recent bug :)
[12:50] <didrocks> pitti: great! :-)
[12:50] <seb128> pitti, one way would be to not spawn dialogs for things not from the current boot
[12:50] <seb128> i.e anything older than dmesg stamps
[12:50] <pitti> hah, it is already
[12:50] <mdeslaur> bug 853951 is _really_ beginning to irk me
[12:50] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 853951 in unity "Workspace switcher makes windows lose decorations" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/853951
[12:51] <seb128> smspillaz, ^
[12:51] <seb128> mdeslaur, never got this one
[12:51] <pitti> seb128: hmm, that's worth thinking through indeed
[12:51] <didrocks> mdeslaur: urgh? doesn't happen here.
[12:51] <smspillaz> mdeslaur: didrocks it's a known issue, I'm going to work on it when I get a chance
[12:51] <mdeslaur> didrocks, smspillaz, seb128: thanks
[12:51] <seb128> I wonder what the "test drive" button in usb-creator does
[12:51] <didrocks> mdeslaur: smspillaz: targetting it then
[12:51] <seb128> it's on the dialog after the iso recording
[12:54] <pitti> didrocks: thanks for the wiki update; I did some cleanups, and signing off now
[12:55] <didrocks> pitti: great, thanks :)
[13:16] <chrisccoulson> i've just been trying to debug another issue with the volume notifications, and this time i don't think it is the fault of g-s-d
[13:17] <chrisccoulson> according to pulseaudio indicator-sound-service responds to each volume change by setting the volume again
[13:17] <chrisccoulson> and it ends up cancelling the mute when g-s-d initially sets it
[13:17] <mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: lol
[13:18] <chrisccoulson> ie, g-s-d sets muted and displays it on screen, but indicator-sound-service immediately unmutes it again
[13:18] <chrisccoulson> so the next time you press the volume down media-key, you get the same "muted" icon without the throbbing effect
[13:18] <chrisccoulson> time to report an indicator-sound bug ;)
[13:19] <chrisccoulson> that's been bugging me for weeks now
[13:31] <seb128> vuntz, can you review a gnome-desktop patch from chrisccoulson?
[13:32]  * pitti grabs gtk+3.0
[13:35] <chrisccoulson> nice, i'm glad i narrowed down bug 855557, that's been annoying me for ages :)
[13:35] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 855557 in indicator-sound "indicator-sound-service interferes with gnome-settings-daemon" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/855557
[13:35] <seb128> chrisccoulson, bounce it to dx, or ted, ronoc is on leave
[13:35] <seb128> hum, ok who understand launchpadlib?
[13:35] <seb128> ubuntu_series = launchpad.distributions['ubuntu'].getSeries(name_or_version='oneiric')
[13:35] <seb128> print ubuntu_series.getPackageUploads()
[13:35] <seb128> that gives me
[13:35] <seb128> <lazr.restfulclient.resource.Collection object at 0x929fb4c>
[13:36] <seb128> what I can do from it?
[13:36] <seb128> version tries to iterate through it with a "for upload in ubuntu_series.getPackageUploads():"
[13:36] <seb128> but that seems to not work
[13:36] <pitti> iteration usually works
[13:37] <pitti> what doesn't here?
[13:37] <seb128> ubuntu_series = launchpad.distributions['ubuntu'].getSeries(name_or_version='oneiric')
[13:37] <seb128> for upload in ubuntu_series.getPackageUploads():
[13:37] <seb128>     print "unapproved:", upload
[13:37] <seb128>  
[13:37] <seb128> -> empty output
[13:37] <seb128> pitti, ^
[13:37] <seb128> it seems to hang
[13:38] <pitti> seb128: erm, just getPackageUploads()?
[13:38] <pitti> isn't that going to give you a bazillion results?
[13:38] <seb128> getPackageUploads(status='Unapproved')
[13:38] <seb128> pitti, ubuntu_series.getPackageUploads(status='Unapproved'):
[13:38] <seb128> rather
[13:38] <seb128> when I dropped the status to see if that was the issue
[13:39] <pitti> >>> up.total_size
[13:39] <pitti> 30
[13:39] <pitti> that seems fine
[13:39] <pitti> and iteration works here
[13:39] <seb128> ok
[13:39] <seb128> ubuntu_series = launchpad.distributions['ubuntu'].getSeries(name_or_version='oneiric')
[13:39] <seb128> for upload in ubuntu_series.getPackageUploads(status='Unapproved'):
[13:39] <seb128>     print "unapproved:", upload
[13:39] <seb128> -> empty
[13:39] <seb128> for me
[13:39] <seb128> like it returns without printing anything
[13:40] <pitti> >>> for u in up:
[13:40] <pitti> ...     print u.display_name
[13:40] <pitti> ...
[13:40] <pitti> pygobject
[13:40] <pitti> gobject-introspection
[13:40] <pitti> eucalyptus
[13:40] <pitti> [...]
[13:40] <pitti> and just printing u gives me "https://api.launchpad.net/1.0/ubuntu/oneiric/+upload/3198332" [...]
[13:41] <seb128> mueuh
[13:41] <pitti> ooh
[13:41] <seb128> pitti, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/694454/
[13:41] <seb128> is what I'm trying to run
[13:41] <pitti> seb128: it seems it doesn't work with login_anonymously()
[13:41] <pitti> WTH
[13:41] <pitti> darn, seems we need to login authenticated again
[13:41] <seb128> why?!
[13:42] <pitti> i. e. login_with(), and supply a cookie the first time
[13:42] <pitti> I don't know
[13:42] <seb128> I don't want to start having to maintain a cookie for version
[13:42] <seb128> I guess I should ask on #launchpad, seems a bug
[13:43] <seb128> pitti, well in any case that's why the versions queue use is broken
[13:43] <pitti> ah, ok
[13:43] <seb128> since that's what it does to list items in the queue
[13:43] <pitti> seb128: we could just leave the cookie on ~/.launchpadlib/ on people, and give it a readonly priv?
[13:43] <seb128> pitti, wfm
[13:44] <seb128> but we need an account to use?
[13:44] <seb128> or do you want to use the retracer one?
[13:44] <pitti> I'm happy for it to use my creds, as long as it's readonly and public
[13:44] <seb128> pitti, want to set it up?
[13:44] <pitti> seb128: sure
[13:44] <seb128> thanks!
[13:51] <pitti> seb128: done, next cron job should get it
[13:51] <pitti> in 15 ins
[13:51] <seb128> pitti, danke! ;-)
[14:04] <cyphermox> seb128: would I need an FFE for the libnm-gtk split (what is needed for g-c-c) ?
[14:04] <seb128> pitti, ^
[14:04] <cyphermox> I'm about to write one for NM 0.9.1.90 too.
[14:04] <pitti> cyphermox: they split a source pakcage?
[14:04] <cyphermox> yeah
[14:04] <pitti> seems fine
[14:04] <pitti> cyphermox: any difference in the binary packages?
[14:05] <cyphermox> wait no
[14:05] <cyphermox> they split the binary package
[14:05] <pitti> i. e. source only split, or does it create new library packages?
[14:05] <cyphermox> new library
[14:05] <seb128> is there an easier way to specify configure option to dh rules than using "override_dh_auto_configure:"?
[14:05] <pitti> that'll mean a transition with potentially many rebuilds, so we should have an FFE
[14:05] <seb128> i.e should I
[14:05] <pitti> seb128: I don't think there is
[14:05] <seb128> override_dh_auto_configure:
[14:05] <seb128> 	dh_auto_configure --disable-icon-update
[14:05] <cyphermox> pitti: nothing was using any of it before :)
[14:05] <seb128> 	dh_auto_configure --  --disable...
[14:05] <seb128> rather
[14:05] <seb128> pitti, ok, thanks
[14:06] <cyphermox> pitti: it's been split to make wifi/mobile dialogs available to other apps instead of relying on nm-applet
[14:06] <pitti> cyphermox: seems fine
[14:18] <cyphermox> pitti: my ffe for NM is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/855592
[14:18] <ubot2> Ubuntu bug 855592 in network-manager "FFE: NetworkManager 0.9.1.90" [Undecided,New]
[14:21] <pitti> cyphermox: updated
[14:21] <cyphermox> thanks
[14:24] <pitti> seb128: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/desktop/versions.html> darn, no difference
[14:24] <seb128> pitti, "Last updated: Wednesday September 21 2011 13:50:06 +0000"
[14:24] <seb128> pitti, it was before your change
[14:24] <pitti> oh, versions.py stopped running, weird
[14:25]  * pitti runs in foreground, perhaps it crashed
[14:25] <seb128> maybe it's waiting for lplib authentification?
[14:25] <seb128> or something went wrong with the cookie
[14:25] <pitti> no, I did that already, and checked
[14:25] <seb128> there is a reason I prefer anonymous ;-)
[14:25] <seb128> ok
[14:25] <pitti> temporarily disabling cronjob (in case I forget)
[14:26] <dobey> pitti: can we go back to the old, non-broken, python-gojbect? :)
[14:26] <pitti> dobey: what is broken?
[14:27] <pitti> seb128: running in foreground now; lp login etc. went fine
[14:27] <dobey> pitti: requiring people to use introspection, when all the APIs they need to use are not introspected, and some of the APIs they need, don't have static bindings
[14:28] <pitti> dobey: how was the latter any different?
[14:28] <pitti> e. g. Soup didn't have static bindings, so you couldn't use it before either
[14:28] <dobey> pitti: back when we could mix static bindings and gi bindings, we could actually have software that works reliably
[14:28] <pitti> that actually never worked reliably
[14:28] <dobey> pitti: right, but we could mix static/gi with old gobject
[14:28] <pitti> it was a source of weird crsahes
[14:30] <dobey> i'd rather have a million bugs depending on upstream getting their act together, than having them tell me i'm not allowed to write applications using APIs I need to use, because they haven't been bound in GI :-/
[14:32] <dobey> and my particular points of pain right now are Unity and twisted
[14:32] <dobey> not Soup
[14:32] <pitti> dobey: you can still do it by importing all GI bits first, and then the static ones
[14:32] <pitti> but you get to keep both halves when it breaks
[14:32] <pitti> $ python -c 'import gobject; from gi.repository import Gtk'
[14:33] <pitti> -> ImportError('When using gi.repository blabla')
[14:33] <pitti> $ python -c 'from gi.repository import Gtk; import gobject'
[14:33] <dobey> unfortunately not possible
[14:33] <pitti> -> no complaint
[14:33] <pitti> but even this simple one already breaks in glib
[14:33] <pitti> (Warning: g_boxed_type_register_static:..)
[14:35] <pitti> $ python -c 'from gi.repository import Soup; import twisted'
[14:35] <pitti> dobey: ^ that particular combination might work?
[14:36] <pitti> ah, twisted itself doesn't use gobject, that was just a particular submodule
[14:37] <seb128> chrisccoulson, is ureadahead working for you? is it supposed to do something on a ssd? on my chart it doesn't stop any other loading and the bar has no io color, seems weird
[14:37] <pitti> dobey: is there a particular library you need? building a gir is not exactly rocket science, so we can help upstream to build one
[14:37] <dobey> pitti: from twisted.internet.glib2reactor import install
[14:37] <chrisccoulson> seb128, yeah, it seems to work ok here
[14:37] <dobey> pitti: the problem isn't that the .gir/typelib is missing; the problem is that glib/gio/gobject stuff isn't totally bound yet
[14:37] <seb128> chrisccoulson, hum ok, I'm testing on the 10v with an install I just did an hour ago
[14:38] <chrisccoulson> seb128, actually, maybe not - https://launchpadlibrarian.net/80459240/farnsworth-oneiric-20110920-16.png
[14:38] <chrisccoulson> that doesn't make a lot of sense ;)
[14:38] <seb128> your changes in the ppa won 1s on the boot there
[14:38] <chrisccoulson> nice :)
[14:38] <chrisccoulson> seb128, is that a fresh install?
[14:38] <dobey> pitti: or well, i'm trying to port the glib2/gtk2 reactor to gi/gtk3 APIs with gir, but alas, lack of upstream bindings
[14:38] <seb128> chrisccoulson, well "fresh", rebooted 10 times with some minutes in session
[14:39] <seb128> chrisccoulson, i.e it should have done the ureadahead caching
[14:39] <chrisccoulson> there's still the case where it regresses if you've ever changed your monitor settings, which sucks
[14:39] <chrisccoulson> (ie, it adds back another reprobe)
[14:39] <chrisccoulson> which there isn't really any need for :)
[14:39] <seb128> it's "down" to 26.8s on the 10v
[14:41] <chrisccoulson> seb128, what was it in lucid?
[14:42] <seb128> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/11.10/BootSpeedAnalysis
[14:42] <seb128> 12s...
[14:42] <chrisccoulson> still a way to go then ;)
[14:42] <seb128> but it was 37s 1 week ago on oneiric
[14:42] <seb128> so 10.2s in a week is already something ;-)
[14:42] <chrisccoulson> :)
[14:43] <seb128> it's not only us
[14:43] <seb128> gnome-session used to start 6s into the boot, it starts at 9s now
[14:43] <chrisccoulson> ah, so it's not all our fault then ;)
[14:44] <seb128> I need to debug nautilus
[14:44] <seb128> it was taking 3 seconds of cpu, it's taking like 10s now
[14:44] <seb128> and I've moved all the .so out, so it's not the u1 integration or something else being stupid
[14:44] <chrisccoulson> ouch, that's quite a bit
[14:45] <seb128> the other offender is compiz,unity
[14:45] <chrisccoulson> yeah, i think those are a lost cause for oneiric ;)
[14:45] <seb128> also we use to run the wm directly
[14:45] <seb128> not delay it to after g-s-d
[14:45] <seb128> i.e on http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/bootcharts/daniel-lucid-20100305-1.png
[14:46] <seb128> lot of small things taking 1s as well
[14:46] <seb128> the helper to detect if we should run 3d or not
[14:46] <pitti> seb128: hm, who knows -- http://people.canonical.com/~platform/desktop/versions.html worked now
[14:46] <pitti> heisenbug
[14:46] <seb128> zg taking over a second cpu
[14:46] <seb128> pitti, looks better ;-)
[14:47] <didrocks> seb128: the helper souldn't take any time now, (at least, you should pay the price before gnome-session is there)
[14:47] <seb128> didrocks, it's autologin
[14:47] <didrocks> seb128: even with autologin
[14:47] <pitti> seb128: indeed, much more useful again \o/
[14:47] <didrocks> seb128: it's run *before* gnome-session
[14:47] <seb128> didrocks, so it's buggy, it takes 2s of blue bar
[14:47] <chrisccoulson> so, we'll all be discussing boot speed at UDS then ? :)
[14:48] <seb128> didrocks, not on my charts
[14:48] <pitti> seb128: ah, it marks the unapproved ones with a little "Q"
[14:48] <seb128> pitti, right
[14:49] <didrocks> seb128: can you upload your chart?
[14:49] <seb128> didrocks, yeah, I'm copying them over
[14:50] <didrocks> if you are on autologin
[14:50] <didrocks> you should see it running twice
[14:50] <didrocks> one before gnome-session, paying the price
[14:50] <didrocks> and a short time after gnome-session (just checking a file)
[14:51] <didrocks> seb128: ls /tmp/unity_support_test*
[14:51] <pitti> didrocks: oh, I was going to ask you about this -- what creates /tmp/unity_support_test.0 ?
[14:51] <pitti> didrocks: it's a predictable file name, so whatever creates it must be *very* careful to not make this a symlink attack vector
[14:52] <didrocks> pitti: unity_support_test creates it :)
[14:52] <didrocks> (/usr/lib/nux/unity_support_test)
[14:52] <didrocks> pitti: hum, it runs under the user or lightdm name, indeed
[14:52] <pitti> didrocks: does it need to be in /tmp/ ?
[14:52] <didrocks> pitti: it needs to be somewhere where it's removed at startup
[14:52] <seb128> didrocks, doh, ok, my fault
[14:53] <didrocks> pitti: basically, that's the speed improvment I made last week i discussed on the team report
[14:53] <seb128> didrocks, there is a gnome-fallback... on the chart, I though it was the fallback 3d session upstream thing
[14:53] <didrocks> pitti: when unity-greeter is running, the support tool test is ran and drop that file depending on the result
[14:53] <seb128> but it seems it's gnome-fallback-mount-helper from g-s-d
[14:53] <didrocks> seb128: ahah! :-)
[14:54] <seb128> didrocks, pitti, chrisccoulson: http://people.canonical.com/~seb128/oneiric-Inspiron-1011-oneiric-20110921-6.png
[14:54] <didrocks> pitti: then the scripts in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ before logging try to pick it
[14:54] <seb128> 10v beta2 chart with the desktop team ppa
[14:54] <pitti> seb128: oh, wow, on mine it was 2 s faster even without the PPA: http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/bootcharts/daniel-oneiric-20110914-disable-indicator-session.png
[14:55] <pitti> seb128: however, the desktop PPA should make little difference
[14:55] <seb128> why does it call modprobre and blkid in serie?
[14:55] <pitti> as both CPUs are fully used all the time, the extra wait time doesn't matter
[14:55] <seb128> pitti, it makes a ~1s difference there
[14:56] <pitti> nice
[14:56] <didrocks> pitti: I'm happy with any better solution, basically, the test tool should be able to cache its result and we need to have a fast check even if we restart it upon reboot
[14:57] <pitti> didrocks: so it can't go into ~, and it needs to be predictable
[14:57] <didrocks> pitti: knowing that it can be run from multiple users on the machcine (and even lightdm)
[14:57] <pitti> didrocks: and needs cleaning up on boot?
[14:57] <didrocks> pitti: indeed, if you install a new driver or whatever
[14:57] <pitti> didrocks: then the only locations are /tmp/ and /run/lock/, both of which are world-writeable
[14:57] <didrocks> I picked /tmp for that reason
[14:57] <pitti> didrocks: so we indeed need to be careful; I'll have a look at the code, I guess it's in lp:unity?
[14:58] <didrocks> pitti: no, it's lp:nux
[14:58] <didrocks> pitti: my code is pretty silly, but yeah, I will leave a second look :)
[14:58] <pitti> didrocks: I can just run that tool without harm, right?
[14:58] <pitti> didrocks: what's .0, the $DISPLAY?
[14:58] <didrocks> pitti: yeah, it won't hurt you, I promess!
[14:58] <didrocks> pitti: no, it's the result (0 for ok, 1 for ko)
[14:59] <pitti> ah
[14:59] <pitti> right, it's not user specific
[14:59] <chrisccoulson> nice - http://chevrel.org/temp/Capture-trailer_400p.png :)
[14:59] <didrocks> pitti: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~unity-team/nux/trunk/view/head:/tools/unity_support_test.c
[14:59] <pitti> didrocks: dang, it's vulnerable
[15:00] <pitti> $ ln -s pwned /tmp/unity_support_test.0
[15:00] <pitti> $ /usr/lib/nux/unity_support_test
[15:00] <pitti> $ ls /tmp/pwned
[15:00] <pitti> /tmp/pwned
[15:00] <pitti> didrocks: I'll create a branch
[15:00] <didrocks> pitti: thanks, can push it in next nux release
[15:00] <didrocks> pitti: I just fopen(resultfilename, "w+") and then fclose it
[15:01] <pitti> didrocks: right, you need to use the Unix open() with O_CREAT|O_EXCL
[15:01] <pitti> the latter is the important bit here, to atomically guard against symlink attacks
[15:02] <didrocks> pitti: ok, not really good at security on this, will look at some documentation with your branch :)
[15:02] <didrocks> ok, basically, the idea is to fail is the file is already there?
[15:03] <pitti> didrocks: yes
[15:03] <pitti> didrocks: the attach scenario is that you can overwrite/kill any file which is owned by the user who calls support_test
[15:03] <seb128> didrocks, how busy are you? feel free to grab some GNOME updates this week when you have a slot ;-) (hint, gnome-session for example) ;-)
[15:03] <pitti> i. e. lightdm or you
[15:03] <pitti> didrocks: you can e. g. point it to your keyring, or the lightdm configuration, etc.
[15:03] <pitti> didrocks: I'll create a branch/MP
[15:03] <didrocks> pitti: oh ok, so some kind of "nullify" attack
[15:04] <didrocks> pitti: but to detect if the file exists, I just test resultfile = fopen("/tmp/unity_support_test.0", "r"); (and fclose it if it's there, nothing to read and such). This has no security implication, isn't it?
[15:04] <didrocks> seb128: will do
[15:04] <seb128> didrocks, thanks
[15:05] <didrocks> seb128: still some compiz churn, but will be ok afterwards, I hope
[15:05] <seb128> didrocks, no hurry, I doubt we will unfreeze before friday morning
[15:05] <seb128> didrocks, but feel free to claim on the pad for later ;-)
[15:06] <didrocks> yeah, I'm afraid of that too, I'll try have some iso testing as well tomorrow morning
[15:06] <mdeslaur> didrocks, pitti: is there a possibility of someone malicious creating the file and breaking the GUI on a multiuser system?
[15:07] <didrocks> mdeslaur: well, define "breaking"
[15:08] <mdeslaur> didrocks: ie: saying the hardware supports 3d, when in fact it doesn't, so desktop sessions don't come up?
[15:08] <didrocks> mdeslaur: the support test tool will say "go ahead", then unity needs to fallback if it can't load, which is a whishlist bug opened
[15:09] <didrocks> seb128: I'm maybe blind but I don't see the unity_support_tool being run on your bootchart?
 didrocks, doh, ok, my fault
 didrocks, there is a gnome-fallback... on the chart, I though it was the fallback 3d session upstream thing
 but it seems it's gnome-fallback-mount-helper from g-s-d
[15:09] <seb128> didrocks, ^
[15:10] <didrocks> seb128: yeah saw that, but still, we should it running
[15:10] <mdeslaur> the file should be in a non-user writable location, and maybe the timestamp could be checked to see if it's stale or something
[15:10] <seb128> oh
[15:10] <seb128> didrocks, well in the session it's normal, if it just checks a file it's too short to register on the chart
[15:10] <didrocks> mdeslaur: the file is created by the tool runned by the user though
[15:10] <didrocks> seb128: but that means that the initial check is fast as well?
[15:11] <mdeslaur> didrocks: I thought you said the tool is run by unity-greeter?
[15:11] <didrocks> mdeslaur: ok, so the tool *can* be run by the unity-greeter
[15:11] <didrocks> mdeslaur: there are two cases:
[15:12] <didrocks> - no autologin and unity-greeter -> the tool is run there, while the user is typing his password, the detection is done and cache the info in /tmp
[15:12] <seb128> didrocks, I don't really know, need to check, it seems weird indeed
[15:12] <didrocks> then, Xsession.d (under the new user) check if the file is there, and run the session
[15:13] <seb128> didrocks, it shows on my laptop manual login chart: http://people.canonical.com/~seb128/seb-e6410-oneiric-20110920-9.png
[15:13] <didrocks> mdeslaur: if the user is using something else or autologin, the Xsession.d won't find the file and will run the tool then
[15:13] <didrocks> seb128: hum, interesting
[15:15] <seb128> didrocks, it's running, the proc_ps.log has it
[15:16] <seb128> didrocks, it's like it was exiting immediatly
[15:16] <seb128> didrocks, maybe lightdm close and destroy the process directly in autologin
[15:16] <seb128> didrocks, I think lightdm does clean behind him
[15:16] <mdeslaur> didrocks: ok...hrm...
[15:17] <seb128> didrocks, lightdm is too light, the helper doesn't have time to run ;-)
[15:18] <didrocks> seb128: hum, try logging in slower please :)
[15:18] <didrocks> seb128: oh, what you can do
[15:18] <seb128> didrocks, it's *auto*login :p
[15:18] <didrocks> seb128: reboot, start unity-greeter
[15:18] <didrocks> ah, you mean, in the autologin case, not the bootchart :)
[15:18] <seb128> right
[15:18] <didrocks> so, in the autologin case, lightdm doesn't start it
[15:18] <seb128> didrocks, it does
[15:19] <seb128> it shows with one tick in the bootchart log
[15:19] <didrocks> seb128: unity-greeter is run?
[15:19] <seb128> no
[15:19] <seb128> it's autologin
[15:19] <didrocks> so, it's not lightdm
[15:19] <seb128> no greeter
[15:19] <didrocks> well, it's lighdm in same way
[15:19] <didrocks> but not *the* lightdm :)
[15:19] <didrocks> it's run by /etc/X11/Xsession.d/50_check_unity_support
[15:19] <didrocks> so, it should do the full check and drop the file
[15:21] <seb128> well it drops the file
[15:23] <seb128> didrocks, it seems fast, it takes 0.1s (user time) (0.04s system time) to run on a session after flush caches
[15:23] <seb128> ie echo 3 >  /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches
[15:24] <seb128> didrocks, so maybe it's fast enough to not be picked by the bootchart, the graphic filter out "noise"
[15:24] <pitti> open("/tmp/unity_support_test.0", O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_EXCL, 0666) = -1 EEXIST (File exists)
[15:24] <pitti> yep
[15:28] <didrocks> seb128: weird that it's slower when the greeter is there though
[15:28] <seb128> didrocks, it's not the same box, the greeter login is my laptop not the 10v
[15:29] <seb128> could be that the intel probing is faster on the 10v
[15:29] <seb128> quite some people have slow probing issue on modern intel hardware it seems
[15:29] <didrocks> seb128: ok, so it seems that the cache (for your laptop) is still useful as winning 0.5s maybe?
[15:30] <seb128> didrocks, right
[15:33] <rodrigo_> desrt, when binding a GSettings key to a GtkAdjustment value that changes quick, is gsettings clever enough to just not write for every change?
[15:34] <pitti> didrocks, mdeslaur: https://code.launchpad.net/~pitti/nux/symlink-attack-fix/+merge/76434
[15:39] <mdeslaur> pitti: looks ok, thanks
[15:40] <pitti> so, good night everyone!
[15:40] <didrocks> +1 as well then :)
[15:40] <rodrigo_> bye pitti
[15:40] <mdeslaur> pitti: good night!
[15:40] <didrocks> pitti: merging, thanks a lot! good night
[15:44] <seb128> Laney, rodrigo_: do you hand with tomboy upstream on IRC or something? could you ask if they have any plan to fix https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=657180 for 1.8?
[15:44] <ubot2> Gnome bug 657180 in General "tomboy blocks shutdown" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
[15:44] <desrt> rodrigo_: no.  it's not.
[15:45] <rodrigo_> seb128, I am on #tomboy all day yes, but don't participate much
[15:45] <desrt> rodrigo_: it's a difficult problem to solve
[15:45] <rodrigo_> but yes, sure, asking now
[15:46] <seb128> rodrigo_, thanks
[15:46] <rodrigo_> desrt, right, I'm seeing evolution has a gconf-bridge object that does the binding thing that gsettings does
[15:46] <rodrigo_> desrt, they use a timeout, which not sure it's the best way
[15:46] <desrt> rodrigo_: a good approach may be to introduce a flag at the binding API layer
[15:46] <desrt> RATE_LIMIT or so
[15:47] <rodrigo_> yeah, like _DELAYED?
[15:47] <rodrigo_> right
[15:47] <desrt> or maybe apply the rate limiting by default
[15:47] <desrt> and have a flag to turn it off
[15:47] <desrt> it seems like a problem that's unique to property bindings
[15:47] <desrt> and solving the problem at lower layers is substantially more complicated
[15:47] <desrt> rodrigo_: i welcome a bug
[15:47] <rodrigo_> desrt, I'll file one, yes
[15:51] <rodrigo_> desrt, https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=659738
[15:51] <ubot2> Gnome bug 659738 in gsettings "Need a way to tell GSettings to delay writes for rapidly changing properties" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
[15:51] <rodrigo_> desrt, to be honest, I haven't seen any bug coming from that, so maybe it's not an issue as it was with GConf?
[15:52] <desrt> rodrigo_: it's a performance hit
[15:52] <rodrigo_> ok
[15:52] <desrt> particularly on ext4 with spinning disks
[15:52] <desrt> fsync() take a decade there
[15:52] <desrt> and dconf does fsync() on each write
[15:52] <desrt> (because it has to)
[15:52] <desrt> so 100 changes -> 100 fsync() round trips.  each takes like 40ms
[15:53] <desrt> even though it's async, your disk ends up active for a few seconds after you stop
[15:53] <desrt> that's bad
[15:53] <rodrigo_> yeah
[15:53] <seb128> tedg, hey
[15:53] <seb128> tedg, can you make sure bug #854292 and bug #855557 are assigned and tracked for Oneiric?
[15:53] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 854292 in indicator-session "indicator-session disappear after running update-manager" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/854292
[15:53] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 855557 in indicator-sound "indicator-sound-service interferes with gnome-settings-daemon" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/855557
[15:53] <desrt> seb128: so the mime database stuff in glib...
[15:54] <desrt> seb128: the latest version of the control center no longer uses this API, so it shouldn't be a problem (as i understand it)
[15:54] <seb128> desrt, well as commented on the bug the user bug is still the same
[15:54] <seb128> desrt, open the info capplet and see .local/share/applications/mimeinfo.list being created with random values
[15:55] <seb128> desrt, halfline and alex confirmed it's behaving weird also for them on their fedora with 3.1.92 yesterday so it's not Debian,Ubuntu specific
[15:55] <seb128> desrt, but the bug might be somewhere else...
[15:56] <desrt> seb128: odd.
[15:56] <desrt> seb128: i'll look again, in any case
[15:56] <seb128> thanks
[15:56] <desrt> since lxde and xfce are impacted as well
[15:56] <seb128> well, even for GNOME is seems a not-so-nice bug
[15:56] <seb128> open the control center and get gwibber to open photos, gedit to open calendars and another web browser than the one you used ;-)
[15:59] <mvo> hm, is it just me or does anyone lese find it confusing that "Guest session" is written in the same text / color as ubuntu 11.10 and yet you can click on it but you can't click on ubuntu 11.10
[16:02] <desrt> seb128: so i do as you say, and i get a file
[16:02] <desrt> but the contents of the file are pretty reasonable
[16:02] <desrt> jpegs open with eog, videos with totem, oggs with rhythmbox, etc.
[16:05] <seb128> desrt, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/693740/
[16:06] <seb128> that's the file I get
[16:06] <seb128> desrt, well, it pick handlers for the said type, so if you have i.e only one email client, one web browser, etc you are likely to be ok
[16:07]  * desrt sort of wonders why merely opening the panel and doing nothing at all is enough to cause a file to be generated
[16:07] <seb128> yeah, that's a bug as well in my opinion, bastien seemed to disagree it's one though
[16:07] <desrt> reminds me that i have a patch to commit to g-c-c
[16:07] <seb128> same, I don't see why it creates "added associations"
[16:18] <rodrigo_> out for a bit, bbl
[16:31] <didrocks> have a good night everyone
[17:00] <skaet> rodrigo_,  seb128 - what is the outlook on bug 832603?   Am stumbling into it on a fresh update.
[17:00] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 832603 in gnome-settings-daemon "gnome-settings-daemon crashed with SIGSEGV in g_simple_async_result_complete()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/832603
[17:01]  * skaet does fresh update from natty, and booting oneiric, this is first thing seen. 
[17:01] <seb128> skaet, rodrigo seems to not be online, I don't personally know but I will check with him when he's there
[17:01] <skaet> seb128, thank you.   Anything you think he might want gathered from the machine before I reboot?
[17:01] <seb128> skaet, is g-s-d down, like no theme, etc or do you just get the apport prompt but things work normally?
[17:01] <seb128> skaet, add your .xsession-errors to the bug if you can please
[17:02] <seb128> skaet, oh and could you check the timestamp of the .crash and see if it correspond to the login?
[17:02] <seb128> just to make sure it's not a segfault from the old version on logout before you restarted
[17:03] <skaet> g-s-d down,  no theme.   Its fresh install update from clean installed and updated natty.   First boot triggered.
[17:03] <seb128> ok, so please add the .xsession-errors that should be enough
[17:03] <skaet> seb128,  will do.   Thanks
[17:42] <seb128> re
[17:42] <seb128> ok, that was "interesting"
[17:43] <seb128> g-s-d was not applied any icon theme, theme, etc
[17:43] <seb128> turn out that "don"t run unity-greeter --test-mode" with your user :p it will desactivate all the g-s-d plugins which are not actived on the greeter
[18:41] <micahg> seb128: can you please have someone look at bug 845374
[18:43] <seb128> micahg, will ping kenvandine tomorrow
[18:44] <seb128> but it got only 3 duplicates in 2 weeks
[18:44] <seb128> seems like a low priority bug, we get lot of bugs that get that in a day
[18:46] <dobey> hrmm
[18:46] <micahg> seb128: really?  maybe people aren't using gwibber then, feel free to lower priority
[18:47] <dobey> when did GtkBox switch to not having children expanded by default with _add()?
[18:48] <seb128> micahg, that bug says you don't need to use gwibber
[18:48] <seb128> micahg, gwibber works fine there
[18:48] <seb128> micahg, but anyway, I will get kenvandine to look at it
[18:49]  * micahg must be subscribe to weird people with long links then...
[18:49] <seb128> micahg, do you use ecryptfs?
[18:50] <micahg> seb128: yes
[18:50] <seb128> micahg, well maybe it's due ecryptfs filenames limitation
[18:50] <seb128> users tend to not run ecryptfs ;-)
[18:50] <micahg> seb128: orly, maybe I should have our ecryptfs guy take a look (tyhicks)
[18:50] <seb128> well it's still a bug, but it wouldn't be the first thing to be hit by it
[18:51] <seb128> evolution has issues due to it as well
[18:51] <seb128> the limitation is due to some patents iirc, so not something ecryptfs will fix
[18:51] <kirkland> seb128: that's not quite true
[18:51] <kirkland> seb128: actually for 12.04, tyhicks and jjohansen are support to fix this
[18:51] <seb128> ok, I should better not speak about what I don't know :p
[18:51] <mdeslaur> the filename in the bug isn't long enough to be a ecryptfs issue
[18:51] <kirkland> seb128: jjohansen had a functional, though non-perfect solution
[18:52] <seb128> kirkland, sorry, I though somebody told me that a year ago
[18:52] <kirkland> seb128: there was a slight concern about that, but we cleared it
[18:52] <seb128> great to read ;-)
[18:52] <seb128> mdeslaur, oh ok
[18:52] <kirkland> seb128: :-)
[18:52] <seb128> well as said, I will ask kenvandine to have a look when he's back tomorrow
[18:52] <micahg> seb128: thanks
[18:52] <seb128> it might just be a good old standard gwibber bug ;-)
[19:09] <cyphermox> brb
[20:33] <desrt> tedg: hey
[20:33] <tedg> desrt, Howdy
[20:33] <desrt> tedg: did you want to come to montreal?
[20:34] <tedg> desrt, I have passed a request up the chain, but I haven't gotten a response.  Need to ping.
[20:34] <desrt> tedg: i think olli mentioned that it might be useful for you to be there
[20:35] <tedg> desrt, Yeah, and I had sent him justification.  But, I never got back a yes/no from him.  He's not online now.
[20:35] <desrt> tedg: he asked me if i thought it would be worthwhile.  i said yes.... so here's hoping =)
[21:15] <cyphermox> desrt: btw, thanks for the invite (got it from jason), I'll definitely be there
[21:19] <jbicha> cyphermox: what do you think of the proposed fix for bug 852961 ?
[21:19] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 852961 in network-manager-applet "nm-applet is wrongly started with Gnome Shell" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/852961
[21:21] <cyphermox> jbicha: what should it be set to?
[21:25] <cyphermox> jbicha: hmm.. maybe that's not such a bad idea, I can start to fix one of mpt's bug reports with this
[21:41] <cyphermox> bbl, dinner
[22:43] <desrt> cyphermox: nice :)
[22:43] <desrt> cyphermox: be sure to add yourself to the wiki!
[22:44] <desrt> cyphermox: (and ask the others) https://live.gnome.org/Montreal2011/Participants