[01:29] <macer1> Hello
[01:29] <macer1> I found annoying think on Launchpad
[01:30] <macer1> when apport is collecting bugs to bug that I am subscribed to, it spams me with 30 mails, it should all be send in one
[01:30] <macer1> *thing
[07:53] <micahg> is there a reason why I can't sync wireshark from Debian unstable yet?  It was uploaded a day and a half ago
[07:53] <micahg> it's not showing up in LP under Debian
[08:02] <mrevell> Hello.
[08:05] <wgrant> micahg: Our debian imports are a little behind at the moment -- the migration to set things to superseded/deleted as appropriate is slowing things down.
[08:05] <micahg> wgrant: ah, ok, when do you estimate catching up?
[08:06] <wgrant> micahg: That's difficult to say. sid might not happen for 24 to 36 hours. We'll hopefully have a proper fix early next week, which means it should happen just an hour or so after Debian publishes it.
[08:06] <wgrant> micahg: If it's urgent, you can probably convince someone to use sync-source.py...
[08:07] <micahg> wgrant: right, ok, not so urgent I guess, will try again on Sunday, thanks
[08:15] <ScottSanbar> I have posted a forum post about what I belive are some non-ideal behaviours in launchpad.  If anyone has coments, I would like to here them:  https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/172028
[08:17] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: Launchpad can't really automatically do that. How do you normally generate those files?
[08:17] <wgrant> Often there's an autogen.sh in the branch that debian/rules can call to produce configure etc.
[08:20] <ScottSanbar> wgrant: autoconf, then debuild
[08:21] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: You can't do that in debian/rules?
[08:21] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  If I have an autogen.sh, could the recipe use that to build the autogenerated files?
[08:21] <wgrant> This is completely autoconf/automake-specific, so LP can't exactly do it automatically.
[08:22] <wgrant> Those files shouldn't necessarily be in the source tarball. So you can just fix your debian/rules to generate them first.
[08:22] <wgrant> It's not recipe-specific.
[08:22] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  I am just learning, and have not gotten to the place in the tutorials that tells about writing stuff in the rules file.  I just do them manually at the moment.
[08:24] <wgrant> You might want to look at dh-autoreconf
[08:25] <ScottSanbar> wgrant: so even if I include all the neccessary stuff in rules to "autogen" or whatever you want to call it the build environment from the .am and .ac files, etc. the recipe still needs some of the autogenerated files uploaded?
[08:26] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: No. Launchpad will build the recipe into a source package that doesn't contain the autogenerated files. Then, when Launchpad builds that source package into binaries with dpkg-buildpackage, your debian/rules file will tell dpkg-buildpackage to generate those files.
[08:28] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  OK, so then as long as my rules file contains the necessary steps to generate the build system from the .am and .ac, etc. files, it should all work - e.g., dh --with autoreconf $@ (in the rules file)
[08:29] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: I think that will probably work, yes.
[08:29] <wgrant> Launchpad is about to go down for a couple of minutes of database maintenance.
[08:31] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Thanks!  That is such a simple change to make, and then I can have a clean bazaar repo with only source files and no need for any auto-generated files.  What about install-sh, debcomp and missing?  Is there a command to tell it to do the autoreconf --install, like dh --with autoreconf --install $@ ?
[08:31] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: --with autoreconf might do that itself. I'm not sure how it works these days.
[08:31] <RAOF> They should be a part of the autoconfing
[08:32] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Ok, thanks - you have been most helpful, wgrant and RAOF.  I am very excited to give it a try!
[08:32] <wgrant> And Launchpad is back.
[08:32] <ScottSanbar> Here goes ... :)
[09:13] <fagan> mrevell: hey, what time does flacoste get in at?
[09:14] <mrevell> Hey fagan, 14.00 our time.
[09:16] <fagan> mrevell: cool ill read the books I just got in the meantime. I just got the definitive guide to javascript and a nice one about developing websites with dynamic interfaces so both interesting :)
[09:17] <mrevell> Cool :)
[09:19] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Ok, just tried it.  I deleted all my files except my source files for both the build system and c++ on my PC, and then all I had to do was run debuild and it did EVERYTHING!!! Cool.
[09:20] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: That's excellent. Hopefully the recipe will work fine :)
[09:22] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  However, I ran into a glitch and had to install the dh-autoreconf package, then everything worked hunky-dorey.
[09:22] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: Make sure you add that to Build-Depends in your debian/control.
[09:22] <wgrant> Otherwise the Launchpad builders won't have it installed.
[09:23] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Yah, that is what I was going to say - launchpad failed on that not being installed.  Do you have the syntax handy, othewise I can look it up ...
[09:24] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: You'll see a Build-Depends line in debian/control in your branch. Just add ", dh-autoreconf" to the end of it.
[09:26] <soren> On http://launchpad.net/nova, what is shows as the latest download is not actually the latest download. Is this a bug or a misconfiguration issue on our part?
[09:28] <ScottSanbar> Thanks, I had already figured it out from the Debian control file policy document.  You are really being helpful!  Thanks!  Here I go again ...
[09:40] <wgrant> soren: That's certainly a creative interpretation of "Latest version". Let me try to work out what's going on.
[09:41] <soren> wgrant: Lovely, thank you!
[09:47] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Here is my depend line in control:  	
[09:47] <ScottSanbar> Depends: ${shlibs:Depends}, ${misc:Depends}, dh-autoreconf
[09:48] <ScottSanbar> wgrant: However, it still fails to find dh-autoreconf in the recipe build.
[09:49] <ScottSanbar> h: unable to load addon autoreconf: Can't locate Debian/Debhelper/Sequence/autoreconf.pm ... etc, etc. etc.
[09:49] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: Ah, it needs to go in Build-Depends.
[09:49] <wgrant> Depends is put into the built package.
[09:49] <wgrant> The contents of Build-Depends is installed during building of the packaging.
[09:51] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  I have no Build-Depends file, never have (used dh_make, etc - don't think I ever saw it)
[09:51] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: It should be in the first stanza in debian/control.
[09:51] <wgrant> It's there in the branch you linked to in the question.
[09:52] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Ok, now I feel totally stupid - however, I will note that I am eyesight challenged, so somethimes things like this get me ... :)
[09:53] <wgrant> Heh.
[09:53] <wgrant> Hopefully this will fix it.
[09:59] <wgrant> soren: Ah, our series sorting algorithm is somewhat odd.
[09:59] <wgrant> soren: It doesn't handle alphabetical names properly.
[09:59] <wgrant> soren: It will sort them in the opposite order.
[10:00] <wgrant> So cactus sorts before diablo, so its release wins :/
[10:00] <ScottSanbar> wgrant: thanks, building now - I have high hopes ... :/
[10:01] <ScottSanbar> wgrant: I am still doing my make -distcheck manually to create the .orig.tar.gz file.  Can I put that in debian/rules as well?
[10:01] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  then my world would be complete ... :D
[10:02] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: I believe recipes still only build native packages right now, which means there's no orig.tar.gz.
[10:02] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  This current build is quilt, but has no patches because I am upstream, I think I am saying that right ...
[10:03] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Does recipe change it to native?
[10:03] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: I believe it will be automatically converted to 3.0 (native).
[10:03] <wgrant> dh-autoreconf is installed!
[10:03] <wgrant> Let's see if it builds.
[10:03] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  I believe you are correct - very sure - it is in the log files of the builds as native
[10:04] <soren> wgrant: So nothing we can do will solve this?
[10:04] <soren> wgrant: Well, we could remove the old downloads, but that's not really an option IMO.
[10:04] <ScottSanbar> (waiting with bated breath ... )
[10:05] <wgrant> soren: It excludes obsolete series, so you could lie and set cactus to obsolete, I guess :/
[10:05] <soren> Works for me.
[10:05] <wgrant> soren: Filing a bug that the series sorting is insane would also be a good start.
[10:05] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  SUCCESS!
[10:06] <wgrant> soren: It basically expands all numeric components to four digits (padding with 0s), maps 0-9 backwards, the sorts.
[10:06] <wgrant> soren: I've never seen anything quite like it.
[10:06] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  You are wonderful, thanks so much - I really feel a lot better about my package now.  Now, I will change it to be a source package, not just binary - one step at a time (after I download the .deb and verify it all works)
[10:06] <wgrant> s/the/then/
[10:06] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: The recipe builds a source package.
[10:07] <wgrant> Let's see how the binary builds go...
[10:07] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Oh, OK - does that mean when I run debuild it build s a source package, or do I need to do something like debuild -S on my home PC?
[10:07] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: If you want to upload to your PPA without going through a recipe, you need to build with debuild -S locally.
[10:07] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: But recipes do that automatically.
[10:08] <wgrant> They take the branches you specify in the recipe, add a new entry to debian/changelog, run debuild -S, and upload that to Launchpad.
[10:09] <ScottSanbar> wgrant: Cool, that is really helpful.  Do I need a ChangeLog in all the various directories like I have seen around in different packages, like hello-debhelper?  I took them out to clean up lintian output.
[10:10] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: No, you don't.
[10:11] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  From what I have seen, there are a lot of poorly done packages out there - even Gnu Hello and Gnu Hello debhelper are pretty unclean, and they are supposed to be what we learn from in the tutorials on Ubuntu  and Debian
[10:12] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  I guess, from the standpoint of recipes and not having unnecessary files that will be auto-generated anyway.
[10:16] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: autoconf/automake are a bit special.
[10:16] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: Because release tarballs normally contain the pre-built configure etc.
[10:17] <wgrant> While branches don't.
[10:17] <wgrant> Release tarballs probably shouldn't have all that prebuilt, but that's the way it's been for a while :/
[10:17] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Oh, I see.  So the norm is actually to have all that pre-built stuff in the release tarballs?
[10:18] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: Yes, unfortunately.
[10:18] <wgrant> It does mean that users don't need to have autoconf/automake installed, but it's pretty ugly to have generated files in your "source" tarball.
[10:19] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Wow, I would have never known all this either except for being told in the IRC channels by pabs in #debian-mentors and you and a few other people.  This stuff does not seem to be written down well, and when you do it right, it is clean and "beautiful".  Too bad.
[10:20] <wgrant> Yeah, in this respect building from branches is substantially cleaner.
[10:21] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  When done properly, it is an amazingly well done system.  I am glad I am taking the time to learn Autotools, dh_make/debuild, the recipes and associated stuff from the ground up - I think I will be better off in the long run knowing how to do all this from scratch whenever I want.
[10:21] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: Have you looked at debian/rules from hello and hello-debhelper?
[10:22] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: As you can see, the new version of debhelper that you're using is slightly cleaner :)
[10:22] <wgrant> And.. basically does everything for you.
[10:22] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Yes I have, and I am glad I do not have to mess with all that now.
[10:22] <wgrant> Yep.
[10:23] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  The more I get into Ubuntu/Debian/Gnu/Linux the more impressed I am with how it is all put together.  No wonder it is so successful.
[10:24] <ScottSanbar> wgrant: I hope others will learn in time to take advantage of the advances in debhelper, etc. so they do not have to work so hard.
[10:25] <wgrant> It is all so much easier now.
[10:25] <wgrant> Not as easy as it could be, but there are people working on that :)
[10:26] <ScottSanbar> wgrant: The documentation needs to be updated and examples brought up to date for new people like me - I would have been doing it the old fashioned way if I had not asked so many questions and bugged people on irc
[10:27] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  actually, that is not altogether true - they have the new way in there, but it did not result in a workable recipe the way they had it, and i did not know what files to include/exclude from my branch in launchpad.
[10:31] <ScottSanbar> wgrant: AAARGH - it did not install my man page.
[10:32] <ScottSanbar> wgrant: never mind - I typed in the wrong package name - AOK on testing, huzzah!
[10:34] <wgrant> /win 9
[10:34] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  I will now finish up debuild with debuild -S, then on to the next step - pbuilder and chroot, etc.
[10:34] <wgrant> Ah good, you know to use pbuilder :)
[10:35] <wgrant> Sounds like a good plan.
[10:35] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Yes, I figure I should learn the "underpinnings" before I go up the toolchain - I like to know a little about what is under the hood of stuff so I can better debug, understand, etc.
[10:36] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  That is actually why I have a degree in Physics - not only was it fun, but I could understand "why" from basic principles.
[10:37] <ScottSanbar> (Until I learned enough to know we actually don't really know anything at all)
[10:37] <wgrant> And now CERN says we might know even less..
[10:38] <bigjools> ah scientists who question their results and share the data, how novel
[10:38] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Funny you should mention CERN - I worked on that project doing programming for the ATLAS detector for the University of Oklahoma High Energy Physics group.
[10:40] <ScottSanbar> wgrant: It was a nightmare - you never saw so much horrible, crappy, ungodly code written by newbie Physics grad students and professors who hate to program but have to to get at the physics.  This project is a dream compared to that one, from a programming perspective.  The physics was ultra-cool, though.
[10:40] <ScottSanbar> (ATLAS being the main detector at CERN)
[10:41] <wgrant> Physicists tend to write some... interesting code.
[10:42] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  I am not a physicist - I just happen to have a bachelors in Physics.  I hope I have learned some positive coding skills in my career! :)
[10:43] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  I cannot thank you enough, and pabs from #debian-mentors.  I really feel good about my ability to make packages (up to the point I have reached) now, with the proper guidance and corrections.
[10:45] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: Ah, good excuse!
[10:45] <wgrant> Your packaging looks remarkably good for a first try. Well done!
[10:45] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  One thing I realize, however, is that I do not have a computer science degree, and so have a lot of work ahead of me to read pedagogical texts to become a better computer scientist - looking back on my career, I really feel I could have benefited from getting an MS in CS
[10:46] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: Mm, a lot of CS stuff is probably better self-taught anyway.
[10:46] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Thank you very much for the positive feedback.  It always helps to get some kudos to boost one's ego when in a steep learning curve.
[10:48] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Yes, mine is all self-taught - lots of exerience and some pretty good work with some classic texts, but I still have a lot more to go to become a kernel, driver, module and networking guy like I want to be.  I am currently in the middle fo "Modern Operating Systems" by Tannenbaum, which is the book that Linus Torvalds says inspired him to write Linux.
[10:49] <ScottSanbar> (so I read, anyway)
[10:49] <wgrant> It's certainly an informative book. His "Operating Systems: Design and Implementation" isn't bad either.
[10:50] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Ok, I'll putit on the list.  Here is my book list, FYI: http://www.sanbarcomputing.com/books.shtml
[10:52] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  I found a bug in one of his examples in "Modern Operating Systems" and he actually e-mailed me back with a terse "Thanks you" for letting him know and giving him a possible solution.
[10:52] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Needless to say, I was amazed when he wrote back and agreed with me - made my week!
[10:54] <ScottSanbar> (I kept expecting him to write back and basically say, "Not if you look at it the right way, stupid!")
[11:04] <ScottSanbar> wgrant: If you know, can you recommend a good Linux kernel book?
[11:05] <ScottSanbar> wgrant: from the prospective of programming it
[11:06] <wgrant> ScottSanbar: Linux Kernel Development is not bad.
[11:16] <ScottSanbar> wgrant:  Oh, good - I researched pretty well and thought it was good, but I am glad to have some positive feedback on it.  I will read it next, then.
[16:07] <JonOomph> Hi!  I have a recipe on LaunchPad that just stopped working, after updating the changelog in my Debian packaging branch:  https://code.launchpad.net/~openshot.code/+recipe/openshot-daily.  The buildlog mentions: "debian/changelog didn't contain any parseable stanzas".  Any thoughts?
[17:11] <JonOomph> Where is the best place / channel to discuss LaunchPad recipes... and recipe build errors?
[21:22] <glyph> hello launchpaddders
[21:23] <glyph> Hopefully it's acceptable to bump a project group request: https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/172160 :)
[21:33] <phillw> Hi, Lubuntu is having a problem with the mail archiving system. Is this a known issue affecting many, or just picking on Lubuntu?
[21:43]  * phillw I love net splits! (22:33:27) phillw: Hi, Lubuntu is having a problem with the mail archiving system. Is this a known issue affecting many, or just picking on Lubuntu?