[00:04] just a bit far in your case [00:06] lol very far now [00:06] and Knoxville library is a no go for me, never returned a few books [00:14] yeah, they won't be happy with that, can you pay a replacement fee? and there is a blount county library too [00:14] cyberanger: I have the internet :P [01:04] ? I get booted a lot [01:05] That's normally the quit message for when you exit the client... [01:06] i get booted a lot? [01:06] or quiet channel [01:07] (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [01:10] ah [01:10] is that what my exit msg says? [01:10] Yep [01:10] that's weird... need to investigate [01:10] That happens when you just hit X on the GUI clients [01:11] yeah but i'm still in the channel when it it just periodically reconnects [01:11] maybe it's the wifi :/ [01:11] Shouldn't it make you pingout then? [01:12] idk [01:12] but it is annoying [01:12] It would be [01:14] I think it's just on freenode too [01:26] Is anybody a fan of FSF? [01:34] I am [01:34] sorta [01:34] they do have flaws, but I still like them :D [01:35] Unit193: Why/ [01:36] Can't say it now D: [01:36] aw why not? [01:37] is it about their doc license? [01:37] Fine.... I think they are nutters [01:37] (Put nicely) [01:37] what did they do this time? [01:38] they come across a little crazy because they try to uphold this idea that they can never be wrong [01:38] It's the small things that bother more. One of them came into a Lubuntu channel and asked for an OP or rep to know if it would EVER include mono [01:39] And would not let it drop (You can't say if 2 or 3 releases will include it or not) [01:39] are you a .NET coder? [01:40] Nope, I just will use it if I need it (No, I'm not all that fond it it myself either) [01:40] I'm not a fan of mono, it should exist, but it's not for me [01:41] I'm going to have to install it because of PandoraCaster [01:42] what happened to libpiano? [01:43] it's kind of neat that windows programmers are using linux now bc of mono [01:45] I know one program that's made for Windows, but has a howto for linux users [01:45] using mono? [01:46] <<< does go out of his way not to have mono installed [01:47] wish I could get rid of python and perl too [01:47] Unit193: a connection reset can trip up a client outside of the timeouts [01:47] due to router [01:47] closed route [01:47] Yep, timeout is the only way it happens for me [01:48] binarymutant: I do not have it installed, I avoid it. I'll just have to install it for something I like [01:48] binarymutant: if it still happens on a wire though, that area had wiring issues due to ice spring and winter [01:48] Python is heavy crap [01:48] damaged lines and such [01:48] cyberanger: hopefully it continues to run as well as it has :D [01:49] so that's a possibility (I was stuck there where family was in feb, between line damage & the modem, mess) [01:49] binarymutant: sorry, context here is bad for irc [01:50] not email and web browsing (if it's just this, I'd really suspect wifi, but I'm throwing in this bit with charter from expirences this past year, they know they're your only choice) [01:50] true [01:51] course in Knoxville there's only 2 choices [01:51] if your on newer lines, and newish modem, with a good cat5e no issue [01:51] 2 choices and more people, lower maitance costs [01:51] for the same service prices [01:52] their incentive to fix it was higher [01:52] that's true [01:52] 5 ft of cable vs 5mi of cable [01:53] 2 choices is still a biopoly though, AT&T went out a lot when I was using them [01:53] in feb we couldn't get them to confirm our cable modem was the issue, due to the ice storm (it was a bit of both, storm outage and the cable modem was having issues holding a sync on the line) [01:54] that whole week I wired the network into a data card, just to keep things going [01:54] down here, cleveland, tn city limits, same month, outage fixed in an hour, checked the gear remotely same day [01:54] that's crazy. You should have went ballistic on them (course that's how I lost at&t) [01:54] without having to bug them [01:55] weather was a factor, I understood that, but I have metioned the headaches this year was getting old [01:55] (in a more polite manner) [01:55] I've had AT&T DSL too, now I deversify a little, hotspots, celluar, satellite [01:56] things that are too cheap to matter, or too easy (or critical) to fix quickly [01:56] too much $ for me [01:57] which is too much, dial up is 5 bucks, celluar is 40 bucks, satellite is as needed (so nothing 11 months out of 12) [01:58] wifimax sat? [01:58] cellular is upwards of 100 [01:58] Verizon [01:58] not wimax, virgin mobile, 40 a month [01:59] that's pretty cheap, unlimited text, phone? cap at 2Gb? [01:59] brb [02:00] no cap, it's a data card, so nothing else (t-mobile was 75, 500 minutes + night & weekend (and mobile to mobile, which was moot) unlimited text and data (but Google Voice meant no texts) [02:01] but I dropped t-mobile for this Virgin Mobile card & a VZW phone, spend 15 a month on that, 2 a day voice unlimited [02:06] that's cool [02:07] I have this grps card for my laptop, never used it though [02:07] drop a simm card into it and go [02:07] idk if it works with data though, like I said-never used it [02:08] what's the command to find all the packages that depend on something? like `which python` [02:09] apt-cache depends or rdepends [02:10] apt-cache wasn't any help :/ [02:11] apt-cache rdepends python [02:12] "What depends on python?" [02:12] nice thanks [02:13] err [02:14] Unit193: how about installed reverse depends ? [02:14] nm I got it [02:15] Nice, what'd you do? [02:15] apt-cache rdepends --installed [02:15] apt-cache rdepends --installed python [02:15] Oh, I suppose you actually would want to only view installed :P [02:16] postfix, lsb-release, apparmor, wicd, and upstart ! the only apps tying me down [02:16] You kinda need those :P [02:16] I know :( [02:17] perl? [02:17] deb stuff and irssi [02:17] and apparmor again [02:18] I wonder if I could easily replace my init program... (and not shoot myself in the foot) [02:20] meh I'll just let python and perl live on [02:20] I have quite a few rdepends on python... [02:20] Unit193: I skipped the python libs [02:21] I'm sure the ubuntu-standard requires it a lot [02:23] apt-cache rdepends --installed python |grep -v python Still a ton with that :P [02:25] binarymutant: dpkg depends should also work [02:25] ~5 for me :D [02:26] if I recall [02:26] binarymutant: gprs card & AT&T or T-Mobile should [02:26] AT&T network [02:27] binarymutant: you also use wicd? [02:27] ya, I switched to wicd when I had problems installing networkmanager [02:27] curses or gtk? [02:27] since last night I think [02:27] both [02:28] I use curses [02:28] why do you want postfix? [02:28] mutt [02:28] smtp [02:28] right, even if postfix has no config, mutt needs it [02:29] what's with the install issues, why not apt-get install and done? [02:30] size limits or what? [02:30] originally I did install it but it wasn't working, maybe my user wasn't in the network group or something idk [02:30] but wicd worked out-of-box [02:31] mutt doesn't depend on postfix, it's a recommend [02:31] cli install or anything fancy, netinst [02:32] minimal iso [02:32] it's pretty much a netinst [02:32] and yeah, I was just thinking was postfix really a depend or a habit here [02:32] did you select cli or just run it? [02:32] and what version? [02:33] ? [02:33] I just ran it [02:33] cli like ubuntu server, but slimmer, before you run the install, hit f4 for mode, select cli install & run [02:34] that's what I do [02:34] it installed the base linux system, asked me if I wanted to install a virtual-package (ie lamp server, netbook, etc) [02:34] oh, they reworked it [02:34] version I mean, natty, lucid, maverick [02:35] natty but I upgraded to oneiric [02:35] * cyberanger is about to do a few installs & reinstalls, part of why I ask (other part is my usual, "this is an intresting curousity" deal) [02:35] natty worked, the upgrade is the current issue? [02:35] https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD is the one [02:36] cyberanger: everything worked, but it wasn't a hands free install [02:36] already downloaded the discs, just trying to understand if packages broke, bad repo or what [02:36] like network manager worked but you have to setup the user to the group [02:36] and yeah, that's fine, mine are never handsfree [02:37] wicd does this when installed, it's pretty nifty [02:37] * cyberanger does custom now, openbox or lxde [02:37] oh and my user wasn't in the audio group either [02:37] other than that everything else was awesome [02:37] add my user to audio dip (for dial up) and I forget the third group [02:38] the iso is only 19Mb :D [02:38] add tor's repo, map tor's repo to use tor (too many hotspots call tor an anonmizer, so fetch tor's own upgrade via tor) [02:39] tor is in the ubuntu repo now [02:39] run some custom iptables scripts, and so on [02:39] cyberanger: the mini installs a base system at around 700Mb [02:39] last time I checked Arch was ~500Mb [02:39] 2-3 years ago [02:40] last I heard, tor was behind, but I use the expermental branch anyhow [02:40] ah [02:40] binarymutant: natty base was about that, debian was 300mb [02:40] ! should have went with debian [02:41] debian testing [02:41] idk why I keep installing ubuntu (bad thing to say on an ubuntu channel) [02:41] ah because I like nonfree stuff, that's right [02:42] I think we already had comments about this ;P [02:42] thing is, by the time I do everything, adding packages and such (no music, just software & config) it's 1.7 -2.2 GB (depending on exact setup) [02:42] binarymutant: your in my region, and I outright say it >:-) [02:42] binarymutant: arch base system is still around 500MB [02:42] that's pretty impressive [02:43] yes, wrst & I debate debian testing & arch, and agree unity is a joke (however we disagree on how big a joke) [02:43] this channel & ubuntu, rare [02:43] ha ha [02:43] lol [02:43] well cyberanger like i said if it has to work I'm going debian [02:43] binarymutant: use 'main contrib non-free' instead of just main [02:44] cyberanger: Ubuntu already has it included [02:44] wrst: but debian doesn't have unity [02:44] * cyberanger gags [02:44] cyberanger: all the more reason :) [02:44] binarymutant: but disabled, universe multiverse (and canonical's two really non-free repos) [02:45] cyberanger: It wasn't disabled for me.. [02:45] binarymutant: some difference between live cd (and their installer) and more advanced ones [02:45] I got nvidia-current, flash, all my bad video codecs without doing anything :D [02:45] not even sudo apt-get install *non-free* [02:46] well I mean, besides just installing them. Didn't have to edit /etc/apt/source.list [02:46] Debian you have to [02:46] if you compare ubuntu's live cd to debian's install, they both are lacking universe & multiverse (or contrib & non-free for debian) [02:47] in the live disc you either add them or uncomment them at least [02:47] you & I use advanced installers [02:47] idk last time I used the livecd installer I didn't have to do anything then either [02:48] that's a good enough reason to stick with ubuntu :D [02:48] (I've used alternate more than netinst, due to needing a ethernet tie in, wifi or celluar card but they added it in yesterday, uncommented too, live cd yesterday didn't) [02:49] oh, should add, live cd was 10.04.03 rest was 11.04 (cli install) [02:50] thing is, I bash scripted it in, no extra work [02:51] that's cool [02:51] cyberanger: tried zsh yet? Better tab completion :D [02:51] I just can't tolerate where ubuntu's been going [02:52] cyberanger: towards bug number 1 [02:52] can't say I have recently, dash & bash for sure [02:53] I can't make any excuses for unity's left handed panel but other than that it's very 'new to linux' friendly [02:53] can't say it really is fixing bug number 1 though [02:54] staying 'new to linux' friendly does, average joe can't use Arch :P [02:54] I've had issues with unity (dual monitors mainly, but ease of use on my hw, too much graphics processing to draw a menu) [02:54] err *can't install Arch [02:54] and those bugs were'nt too new to anything friendly [02:55] cyberanger: yes composite sucks, but Windows & Apple do composite so it's inline with lp bug #1 [02:56] it seems that the only time I have xorg crash is with compiz running (or a driver glitch in dual monitors) [02:56] xorg is awesome [02:56] drivers through me into a boot loop, xorg drops me to a terminal (no big to me, I drop myself to a terminal) [02:57] ** except for taking away ctrl+alt+backspace ** [02:57] I had to put ctrl+alt+backspace into my .xinitrc file [02:57] so it's these little bugs that show up huge, that makes unity look worse (to me it's already bad for the pointless composite) [02:57] setxkbmap -option terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp & [02:58] cyberanger: unity isn't 20+ years old though, like xorg [02:58] and that's an ubuntu issue, not an xorg one (too many used to the task manager, hence why) [02:58] binarymutant: unity isn't xorg, it's gnome, apples to oranges [02:59] xorg is under unity, it's a unity issue too [02:59] cyberanger: right but I'm talking project vs project, unity has bugs because its new, xorg doesn't because its super old [02:59] but it's also kernel bugs in ati nvidea & intel chips, wifi [03:00] binarymutant: ah, true, unless code that's new goofs, new driver code, xrandr is fairly new [03:00] when Unity is as stable as xorg these small bugs won't be there and then it'll just be a paradigm issue [03:00] and that's why openbox works, I can contain the bugs [03:00] I've found the dual monitor issue is unity, not xorg [03:01] through grub into a boot loop (traced to the kernel driver & composting settings unity enabled) [03:01] or when unity is as stable as *box, *box has been arround forever too [03:02] true, but windows 8 hasn't and it's more stable (I hate typing that, but truth hurts) [03:02] * cyberanger fetches the neosporin [03:03] that's the thing, unity has been out longer than windows 8, and neither is a complete rewrite or 100% fresh ui [03:03] nah Windows 8 has been around since forever, same kernal and it's just vista's wm - stableized [03:03] wrst: the tablet bit? [03:03] err more stableized [03:04] the netbook stuff & phone stuff in 7 is where that's from, but that matches unity [03:04] it's not like Windows wrote their composite wm from scratch every time [03:04] same with unity (riding on compiz) [03:04] ^^ very true [03:04] is it a fair comparison, no, is it the closest we'll see, probally [03:05] nearly the same development time, riding on older code, both have issues [03:05] but compiz has had a huge internal problem that made stableizing harder. Windows didn't have issues with a community forking it [03:05] unity is in a stable release though, and windows 8 has alot with 7, which is stable [03:06] idk [03:06] true, which is my point [03:06] I'm saying unity isn't a solution to bug #1, if you release it broken on common video cards [03:06] 8 isn't even out, and I can't cause the same bugs with the same cards [03:07] I'm not comparing it to XP, that's unfair [03:08] bug #1 needs to match that same compatability, have more flexability in what can run (we're getting there finally) [03:08] ok cyberanger about have the minimal set up if i'm going to do this might as well use arch or debian and have a rolling release [03:09] and we have so much UI options, we should focus on documentation on issues, and fixing issues, make it stable [03:09] we gained when MS goofed, we were stable [03:10] now I'm on debian after ubuntu slid back (and I'm on debian testing, newer code, which is where it's a bit insulting) [03:10] wrst: debian testing in my book [03:10] Unity isn't the end all to lp#1 for sure. But it was necessary. The biggest problem to bug #1 is that Windows isn't a collection of free software projects so therefor has an upper hand [03:11] vs ubuntu which is still a collection of software projects, and doesn't work right [03:11] vs ubuntu which has to deal with developers of their collection of software projects, which at times don't work together [03:11] * cyberanger has never gotten unity to work for a month with noob level skills [03:11] ala gnome-org [03:12] but what's a broken ui fix? [03:12] a patch? [03:14] Unity isn't for us, but it's good for Ubuntu [03:14] they should put the panel on the bottom though *** [03:14] brb [03:15] binarymutant: if unity is what a noob is supposed to see, but instead sees a boot loop, how is that good [03:15] think patch is the point I'm getting at, we're calling a natty (with unity) stable, and it's not [03:16] comparing it to win8 which is a developer preview, and isn't doing that, fine for a week [03:19] cyberanger: it booted fine for me :D [03:21] reinstall a standard natty iso, it's fine now [03:22] cyberanger: which wm would you push onto new users? [03:24] I look at unity like I do software-center. It's not for me but it's a lot easier for new users to understand than apt-get [03:24] binarymutant: dual monitors? [03:25] cyberanger: the general public don't use dual monitors though [03:25] binarymutant: lxde, currently (less a special reason) [03:25] what's lxde using? [03:25] true, same card crashed as a single monitor, but work needed dual for it [03:25] binarymutant: lxde is a wm [03:25] lubuntu [03:26] openbox [03:28] idk it would be hard to explain how to configure openbox to a new user [03:28] in the same sense that unity is on compiz [03:28] not much (if anything) to really configure [03:29] it looks old too [03:29] Ubuntu needs to look fresh and very easy, hard to do [03:30] unity was meant for older hardware, and there is a reason XP is still big too [03:31] and it's easy (and not as bug ridden) [03:31] sorry, lxde was meant for older harderware, unlike unity* [03:31] nah XP is still the number one desktop because ppl don't want to buy another computer [03:32] exactly, and new support, and they heard about vista, can't see the diff with 7 or 8 [03:32] heh i can't see a difference between 8 and 95 :D [03:32] NT kernel [03:32] Are you blind? :P [03:33] ^^ NT kernel [03:34] Start panel, desktop icons, etc. same old same old [03:34] anyways, I may be wrong about Unity being needed for bug #1, but composite is a must [03:35] [[ linux3.0! ]] [03:36] Liquorix3.0 didn't want to work with me :/ [03:37] Unit193: never heard [03:37] binarymutant: out of the box, with an off switch [03:37] and where it works, sure [03:37] and with varity (dual screens have their place too) [03:38] I've never seen a "general public" computer user with dual screens [03:39] doesn't mean ignore it, we gotta lure gaming, where it's bigger [03:40] we gotta have games to get the gamers :P [03:40] gotta lure businesses, where it happens [03:40] true, but a platform where what games require are needed to get games [03:40] I play flight simulators & FPS [03:41] I used to, but laptop fps isn't very fun :( [03:41] my flight sim I'd love to get on three screens, build a cockpit out of it [03:41] but while I can play linux flight sim's, can't with the current issues in ubuntu [03:41] Unit193: what does "the best configuration for desktop, multimedia, and games" mean? [03:42] cyberanger: why not? [03:42] 3? http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/items/free_games/Images/quake_24_screens.jpg [03:42] binarymutant: What? [03:42] cyberanger: oh composite + gl yeah [03:42] Unit193: quake 3 on a million screens awesome [03:43] not a casual computer user there [03:43] 24 screens of OpenArena would be awesome [03:43] IIRC, Liquorix is a repo for http://zen-kernel.org/ but I could be very wrong... [03:44] binarymutant: and GPU drivers that crash with two monitors, yep [03:44] lol @ zen-kernel names! [03:45] the gtfo release lol [03:45] cyberanger: how does gaming work on Windows w/ composite? [03:46] ...I remember asking that years ago... [03:47] binarymutant: Not the same as Liquorix [03:48] I've never used any kernel that wasn't vanilla or configured by me [03:48] but since you said it didn't work, idk if I want to :P [03:49] binarymutant: more added resources, but considering my issues with unity, it's better [03:49] realistic details on MS flight sim X [03:50] it's grown [03:50] cyberanger: I haven't tried composite+gl game in a long time [03:51] I prolly have the hardware to do it now though [03:52] binarymutant: Didn't work because newer version of GCC was used [03:52] Unit193: ah [03:54] scorched3d is a good demo for that [03:54] graphics is the only harsh requirement, configurable [03:54] scorched3d was super heavy when I tried it [03:54] other gammes are better, but higher requirements [03:54] maybe like 2 years ago [03:55] binarymutant: yeah, I mean graphics alone [03:55] ya I can see why that would be a good test [03:55] other words, it's not network heavy, ram hog outside of graphics [03:55] know what games work great in any condition? roguelikes! [03:56] @ [03:56] and it's better now than then, but yeah, it's heavy [03:56] netcraft [03:56] chess [03:56] minesweeper [03:56] tons of old games, we need new games [03:57] that work [03:57] <- going through a retro phase atm [03:57] xboard, nethack, etc. [03:58] gearhead ** best game out there [03:59] doomrl, aliensrl, and friends are awesome too http://chaosforge.org [04:12] not the rl crowd hmm.. [04:16] 0ad is fun [04:27] cyberanger: What do you think about Debian testing for a server? [04:36] what do you want your uptime to be? [04:36] unstable is actually very stable... [04:36] I don't like downtime [04:37] 100% uptime = stable, 95-99 = testing, 85-95 = unstable imho [04:38] downtime being updates to the kernel* [04:38] Stable = Programs last updated before you got your last car [04:39] yes [04:40] I was thinking debian because if you don't go for stable, it can actually be up to date without quite a few ppas [04:40] unstable is [04:41] Testing = Ubuntu? [04:41] unstable = ubuntu +1 [04:41] oneiric is unstable unil the freeze [04:42] (Can't ever remember that) [04:42] Launchpad PPAs would still be nice, but Ubuntu does updates slow :/ [04:43] you could always compile your apps :D [04:43] As an example, I have a few LP PPAs, GetDeb repos, and something downloaded from LP for the Onriric series. I have compiled, but I'm too lazy to compile everything (Not using Gentoo here) [04:44] :D [04:45] what do you use from oneiric? [04:46] oh noes what do I need for auto-mounting?? [04:46] HAL right? [04:48] Pianobar :P [04:49] I think I might actually install that [04:49] try out pandora [04:52] Or if you like GUI, pithos (python) [04:52] or if you don't like a GUI, Unit193's first recommendation rocks [04:52] pandora is like last.fm right? [04:53] Yes it does! [04:53] (esp on my alice n chain & tool channels) [04:53] cyberanger: But you even use OpenBox! [04:53] binarymutant: there's some differences, but they are similar [04:53] Unit193: with hulu & vlc (when xvideo is needed, say a dvd) [04:54] VLC is awesome, but I don't use Hulu [04:55] *cough* mplayer [04:56] * cyberanger coughs louder, reaches for a cough drop [04:56] Unit193: keeps the cable bill low [04:56] hulu crackle & cbs.com (amoungst others [04:56] like the bbc's iplayer only available in the UK >:-)) [04:58] :buffering: [04:59] just dl it :P [05:00] cyberanger: I also don't have cable [05:01] binarymutant: no buffering, they're player is good, fetches it from some CDN servers in Atlanta (just gotta foul up the GeoIP tools they use, childs play) [05:02] a uk proxy probably works [05:02]