[03:19] <footvilla> can someone help me
[03:19] <footvilla> im trying this tutorial
[03:19] <footvilla> and not sure what to do on one of the steps
[03:24] <pmatulis> !ask | footvilla
[05:58] <Samic> Do I need to install a DNS server on my host to connect my domain to it?
[06:23] <Samic> Do I need to install a DNS server on my host to connect my domain to it?
[06:24] <SpamapS> Samic: https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide/C/dns.html
[06:25] <Samic> SpamapS: couldn't you just answer with yes or no??!!
[06:26] <SpamapS> Samic: Its complicated, so no, its not a yes/no question even though you phrased it as such.
[06:26] <SpamapS> Samic: the bottom line is, if you have a domain you need *somebody* to do DNS for it.
[06:26] <SpamapS> Samic: if your registrar provides free DNS (most do these days) then no, you don't need DNS services on your server.
[06:27] <Samic> is it something about my host (setting in ubuntu) or my domain company?
[06:27] <SpamapS> Samic: you just need to map the address of your server to the hostname you want.
[06:27] <Samic> I have read those manual about DNS on help.ubuntu.com but I don't know what should I do
[06:28] <Samic> I have a domain (samic.us) and a server (79.143.176.96)
[06:28] <Samic> i don't know how to connect hese two!
[06:28] <SpamapS> Name Server:                                 NS1.SAMIC.US
[06:28] <SpamapS> Name Server:                                 NS2.SAMIC.US
[06:29] <Samic> do you get any result from running   dig samic.us ns    on your box?
[06:29] <SpamapS> no
[06:29] <SpamapS> whois samic.us
[06:29] <SpamapS> Typically your registrar will require you to give those addresses.
[06:30] <Samic> for me dig answers with serverfail which I don't understand what's the meaning and what should I do
[06:30] <SpamapS> yeah dig is answering that way because you did not give ns1.samic.net a real address yet.
[06:31] <Samic> ok thanks! we are going somewhere! how should I give ds1.samic.us an address?
[06:31] <SpamapS> Samic: so you will need to install DNS on your server, and you'll need to configure it for your domain.as a "Primary Master"
[06:32] <SpamapS> Samic: then you need to inform your registrar that NS1.SAMIC.US == x.x.x.x
[06:32] <SpamapS> They will, in turn, put that into the root servers.. so dig will start to work.
[06:32] <Samic> aha! so I do need to install BIND!
[06:33] <SpamapS> Yes you do, *or* (the easier option) let your registrar or some other cheap DNS hosting company handle it.
[06:33] <SpamapS> godaddy does it for free
[06:33] <Samic> thank you very much!
[06:33] <Samic> you solve my problem
[06:33] <Samic> I'll try it now
[06:33] <SpamapS> Samic: good luck! :)
[07:59] <Samic> in configuring BIND, should I make make a zone in /etc/bind/named.conf.local   for  samic.us (my domain) or ns1.samic.us ?!
[08:04] <ikonia> Samic: the zonefile should contain data about both your zone hosts and their name servers
[08:06] <Samic> I want to have two nameservers (ns1.samic.us and ns2.samic.us) so /etc/bind/named.conf.local should be like this:
[08:06] <Samic> zone "samic.us" {
[08:06] <Samic>         type master;
[08:06] <Samic>         file "/etc/bind/db.samic.us";
[08:06] <Samic> };
[08:06] <Samic> };zone "ns1.samic.us" {
[08:06] <Samic>         type master;
[08:06] <Samic>         file "/etc/bind/db.ns1.samic.us";
[08:06] <Samic> };
[08:06] <Samic> zone "ns2.samic.us" {
[08:06] <Samic>         type master;
[08:06] <Samic>         file "/etc/bind/db.ns2.samic.us";
[08:06] <Samic> };
[08:06] <Samic> ?
[08:07] <Samic> BIND is really confusing!!
[08:09] <Samic> ikonia: can you help me?
[08:10] <ikonia> Samic: you don't need a zone file for the individual name servers
[08:10] <ikonia> Samic: you need 1 zone file for the zone, that contains the zone data and the name server
[08:11] <Samic> ok so i just need zone "samic.us"
[08:13] <ikonia> Samic: yes
[08:13] <ikonia> you don't actually have zones called ns2 or ns1, your zone is your domain
[08:15] <mranim8> Hi. Can someone help me with an installation question? I just downloaded 11.04 (x86, the regular version, not the server edition) to put onto a freshly built file server. I want to use btrfs instead of ext4, so I go to configure the partitions manually. I have 5 disks (one system, 4 data). I can't create primary partitions on the data drives without adding a mount point, and I can't seem to specify my own mount point. In
[08:15] <mranim8> should I be using Ubutu Server instead?
[08:18] <Samic> ikonia: can you help me to write db.samic.us here:  http://ietherpad.com/eBd9zRGcHT
[08:18] <ikonia> Samic: not really, it's your zone file
[08:18] <ikonia> Samic: this zone isn't going out onto the public internet is it ?
[08:19] <Samic> ikonia: I didn't understand your question
[08:19] <ikonia> Samic: you're not going to use this dns server on the public internet are you ?
[08:19] <Samic> yes!
[08:20] <Samic> i want to connect my domain (samic.us) to my host (79.143.176.96)
[08:20] <ikonia> Samic: I would strongly advise against putting a dns server on the public internet unless you know what you are doing
[08:20] <ikonia> Samic: you don't seem confident with how dns works or how to setup and manage it, hence why I would strongly advise against it
[08:21] <ikonia> there are many very cheap (maybe even free) public dns services on the internet, it would make more sense in my eyes for you to use one of those until you actually understand how it works
[08:21] <Samic> ikonia: can you take a look at here :  http://ietherpad.com/eBd9zRGcHT
[08:21] <ikonia> Samic: I've already looked at it.
[08:22] <ikonia> hence why I've just said what I did
[08:22] <Samic> ok forget about security ;)
[08:22] <Samic> I don't know where to put ns1 ans ns2
[08:22] <ikonia> no
[08:22] <ikonia> it's not just security.
[08:22] <ikonia> I've given you my opinion/advice on the matter and I'll leave it there
[08:23] <Samic> is there anyone here who know how to setup nameservers?!
[08:30] <Samic> anyone knows how to configure BIND?
[09:06] <udienz> Samic, what's up?
[09:06] <udienz> Samic, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BIND9ServerHowto
[09:11] <Samic> udienz: I have read that
[09:11] <Samic> udienz: can you take a look at http://ietherpad.com/eBd9zRGcHT
[09:14] <udienz> Samic, is there any errors produced
[09:14] <Samic> can you see samic.us in your browser?!
[09:15] <udienz> Samic, yep
[09:15] <Samic> really?!! how about samic.org ?!
[09:16] <udienz> Samic, http://paste.ubuntu.com/700377/
[09:16] <udienz> samic.org doens't have A record
[09:17] <Samic> i have set samic.org nameservers to ns1.samic.us and ns2
[09:17] <Samic> I don't know what's the problem about it
[09:18] <udienz> Samic, samic.org must decaled in zone too
[09:18] <StevenR> Samic: samic.org has no NS records
[09:18] <Samic> but    -whois samic.org    is correct!!
[09:19] <Samic> can't I just make ns1.samic.us and point samic.org to it?!
[09:20] <StevenR> Samic: if I trace it, it appears to be there
[09:21] <StevenR> looks like you need to wait a while or it to propagate
[09:21] <Samic> so it's correct to setup ns1.samic.us and point samic.org
[09:22] <StevenR> you can use ns1.samic.us as a nameserver for samic.org
[09:22] <udienz> and creating samic.org zones at ns1.samic.us
[09:23] <Samic> StevenR: ok thanks! so you think configuration http://ietherpad.com/eBd9zRGcHT  is allright?
[09:24] <StevenR> Samic: that looks ok... is that the configuration for ns1.samic.us?
[09:25] <Samic> StevenR: those are all configuration files! you can see file name at top of each
[09:25] <StevenR> Samic: is that the configuration for ns1.samic.us ?
[09:25] <StevenR> (it's a yes or no answer)
[09:26] <Samic> StevenR: I don't understand your question correctly!
[09:26] <Samic> I have domain (samic.us) and I have these filese there!
[09:26] <StevenR> Samic: which server is that configuration for?
[09:27] <Samic> /etc/bind/named.conf.local     and       /etc/bind/db.samic.us        and      /etc/bind/db.79
[09:27] <StevenR> Samic: that server won't answer queries for samic.org, you will need another zone file for that.
[09:29] <Samic> StevenR: i can copy these files for samic.org too but the problem is Reverse Zone File
[09:29] <Samic> /etc/bind/db.79
[09:29] <StevenR> why is that a problem?
[09:29] <Samic> you can see it at the end of http://ietherpad.com/eBd9zRGcHT
[09:30] <Samic> which address should I put there?!
[09:31] <StevenR> that zone file doesn't look right, but I'm not certain about it. You don't need a second reverse zone file.
[09:32] <Samic> StevenR: so I don't need to change this reverse zone file?!
[09:34] <StevenR> Samic: you do. the PTR records should include fully qualified domain names, including the trailing .
[09:35] <Samic> it's really confusing!!! can you change it in http://ietherpad.com/eBd9zRGcHT  ?
[09:35] <StevenR> Samic: try dig 243.140.71.82.in-addr.arpa PTR
[09:36] <Samic> StevenR: what's that?!
[09:36] <Samic> 243.140.71.82.in-addr.arpa. 7200 IN	PTR	zen.co.uk.
[09:37] <StevenR> Samic: the NS records in your reverse zone file don't exist, and the @ record is invalid.
[09:38] <Samic> can you correct it thee please?!
[09:39] <Samic> StevenR: can you correct it there please?!
[09:43] <StevenR> Samic: no, you need to work out what the correct things should be. You've added records to other zones, you should be able to add NS records to this one :)
[09:44] <Samic> :(
[09:44] <Samic> StevenR: should I just add    ns1      IN      A       79.143.176.96
[09:44] <Samic> ns2      IN      A       79.143.176.96
[09:44] <Samic> to it?!
[09:45] <StevenR> no
[09:46] <StevenR> you need NS records, not A records. Don't put A records in a reverse zone
[09:46] <Samic> is it right now?! can we chat there?!
[10:02] <Samic> StevenR: are you still there?!
[10:03] <StevenR> back now
[10:05] <Samic> StevenR: my question is about nameservers (like ns1.samic.us)
[10:05] <Samic> if I create one of them then can I point any other domain (like domain.org) to it without anymore configuration?
[10:06] <StevenR> for every domain that the nameserver will answer queries for as the authoritative nameserver, you must have a zone file for it
[10:07] <StevenR> so if you want samic.org and samic.us to be run from the same nameserver, you need a zone file for each domain.
[10:08] <Samic> StevenR: ok thanks! I got that but what about reverse file? I should write domain name there too. which domain should I state there?!
[10:11] <StevenR> what do you mean?
[10:13] <Samic> there is a reverse file (in my example it's /etc/bind/db.79 as you can see on http://ietherpad.com/eBd9zRGcHT) on  the 8th line of that file I should write domain name
[10:13] <Samic> if I want to connect two domain to a host what should I do?! which domain should I stat there?!@
[10:13] <StevenR> which line in the pad?
[10:13] <Samic> StevenR: 71
[10:14] <StevenR> the... "primary" one
[10:14] <StevenR> which of samic.us and samic.org is the most used or most important one?
[10:15] <Samic> StevenR: wait a sec! when I want to connect two domains to a host both of the should be Primary Master?
[10:15] <StevenR> @       IN      SOA     ns1.samic.us. root.samic.us. (
[10:15] <StevenR> 71 should be
[10:15] <StevenR> ^
[10:16] <Samic> so how qbout ns2 ?!
[10:17] <StevenR> it doesn't need to appear in the SOA record
[10:17] <StevenR> as it's not the primary nameserver for that zone
[10:19] <StevenR> now you just need some PTR records in the reverse zone
[10:20] <Samic> StevenR: you can edit there so I can see exactly what do you mean!
[10:23] <StevenR> you SOA records for samic.org and samic.us also should include the FQDN of the primary nameserver for that domain
[10:24] <Samic> StevenR: I used https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide/C/dns-configuration.html  !
[10:24] <Samic> StevenR: Steven! can you edit it there PLEASE!!!
[10:27] <StevenR> Samic: that howto shows you what to do, very clearly. Look at the examples. I'm not going to spoonfeed you, I don't think that's the right way to teach or help people.
[10:28] <Samic> StevenR: can you show me which part of that howto is talking about FQDN in SOA?!
[10:34] <StevenR> it's in all of the examples
[10:34] <StevenR> it might not be referred to directly
[10:35] <Samic> I changed some in http://ietherpad.com/eBd9zRGcHT   is everything right now?!
[10:37] <StevenR> you've not changed the SOA line
[10:37] <StevenR> or it's not updating
[10:38] <Samic> because I don't know what should I do about it!
[10:40] <StevenR> well, you made it right for the reverse zone
[10:45] <Samic> StevenR: I'm at work and I don't have a lot of time. on the other hand there isn't good manual and howto about bind. If you know how to correct these files please help
[10:47] <Samic> because i think you are just enjoying that you know something and I want that! It about an hour and if you wanted to help you could do it in few seconds
[10:51] <StevenR> Samic: no, it's not that at all. I refuse to spoonfeed people, because that teaches bad habits, doesn't help them learn and doesn't improve their ability to learn. I mentor systems techs at work, and I don't spoonfeed them either, even though it would mean they would get the answer faster.
[10:56] <Samic> StevenR: this channel is for getting help! and you are not helping. you just say there is a problem without giving a solution. this is not helping nor teaching! if you want to teach you should say there is a problem there because ... and the solution is .... because ....
[10:57] <StevenR> I've already given you the answer. the SOA record is wrong because it does not include a FQDN for the primary nameserver for that domain.
[10:58] <StevenR> I don't know what FQDN you should put there because it's your nameserver, not mine.
[11:00] <Samic> StevenR: YOU ARE REALLY SICK! YOU KNOW WHAT? JUST GO TO HELL
[11:01] <StevenR> *sigh*.
[11:33] <koolhead17> hi all
[15:05]  * airtonix chuckles
[15:08] <RoyK> hm.. with ubuntu 11.10 beta, I can't find a server cd
[15:13] <oCean> RoyK: http://releases.ubuntu.com/oneiric/
[15:16] <RoyK> thanks
[15:16]  * RoyK is setting up a home server and relies on the bleeding edge :D
[15:16] <KM0201> hope you dont like a stable server
[15:17] <KM0201> installing an unstable OS as a home server, makes no sense
[15:17] <RoyK> well, it's not that far till release
[15:17] <RoyK> it's a home server + a toy
[15:17] <KM0201> deosn't really matter
[15:17] <RoyK> well, cut the crap. I've only been working on linux since 1994 or so. I think I know what I'm doing
[15:17] <KM0201> i've seen updates break a system a week before release in ubuntu (granted, it gets fixed quickly, but it has happened)
[15:19] <KM0201> i didn't say ou didn't.
[15:19] <KM0201> was just making a point..
[15:20] <qman__> not sure exactly what that point is
[15:20] <KM0201> i know how to drive, but i don't deliberately do ignorant things because i feel i can safely do it.
[15:20] <qman__> unstable beta software is unstable beta software?
[15:20] <RoyK> KM0201: it's an exactly good point to make, but ubuntu beta isn't exactly unstable
[15:20] <RoyK> for production machines, I only use LTS
[15:20] <KM0201> RoyK: i guess thats a matter of opinion..
[15:21] <qman__> all but one of my machines are running lucid
[15:21] <qman__> that other one is runnind hardy
[15:21] <RoyK> i think I have 5-6 hardy machines still
[15:22] <RoyK> no reason to upgrade them so long as updates are available and they work
[15:22] <KM0201> my ubuntu machines are 11.04
[15:22] <qman__> yep
[15:22] <RoyK> KM0201: talking of stability - why 11.04?
[15:23] <KM0201> well, desktops, just cuz they are for the home... LTS has little to do w/ stability, and more to do w/ support.. i've had zero probs w/ 11.04
[15:23] <RoyK> desktops I run 11.04 on
[15:23] <RoyK> not servers
[15:23] <qman__> I used to upgrade my desktop every 6 months
[15:23] <qman__> and every time I did, stuff broke
[15:23] <qman__> the only versions that actually had everything working for me were 6.10 and 9.10
[15:24] <KM0201> as for my server, it was my first server install after i bricked freenas, so i figured i'd use 11.04 and 11.10 to make sure things are figured out, then 12.04, i'll stay LTS>
[15:24] <KM0201> qman__: i always clean install, so.. can't really speak for upgrades
[15:24] <qman__> the breakage in lucid is annoying but passable
[15:24] <RoyK> qman__: we have some desktops at observatories and stuff - really combined server+desktop - those all run lucid (soon, when we get rid of those fedoras)
[15:24] <qman__> so I guess I have to wait for 12.10 to have everything working again
[16:43] <Olotila> Adaptec 6805E requires floppy install, but I do not have even the interface in mobo. What to do?
[16:48] <qman__> why would you need a floppy?
[16:49] <qman__> only Windows has such arbitrary requirements for driver installation
[16:52] <Olotila> I will use it in both Ubuntu and Windows, needs to make two separate installations according to guide
[16:55] <qman__> that sounds like a really bad idea
[16:56] <qman__> but in any case, driver floppies are still a windows-only issue, and only old versions at that
[16:56] <qman__> build the raid in the card's bios, install windows to one partition, install ubuntu to another
[17:05] <Olotila> that would work also if I have win7 allready in separate partition?
[17:06] <qman__> yes
[17:06] <qman__> Windows is very rude and imposes its own bootloader regardless of what has been installed
[17:07] <qman__> so the proper order to install multiple operating systems is windows oldest to newest, followed by linux
[17:07] <Olotila> yeah
[17:07] <Olotila> will the separate windows see the raid set?
[17:07] <qman__> depends on if you install the drivers
[17:07] <qman__> however, windows will not be able to read linux filesystems
[17:08] <Olotila> no need to
[17:08] <qman__> you can install ext2 drivers but it's still clunky
[17:08] <Olotila> only the other way around
[17:09] <Olotila> so I would boot inside the raid, but make the separate windows to start?
[17:09] <qman__> huh?
[17:10] <qman__> you install the bootloader to whichever disk is set to boot
[17:10] <Olotila> you said I need to install windows anyways in one of the partitions of the raid set
[17:10] <qman__> it doesn't matter whether that's on a raid or regular disk
[17:10] <qman__> you don't have to
[17:10] <qman__> only if you want windows installed on the raid set
[17:10] <Olotila> when I plugged the card in, I could not boot from any other device other than USB
[17:10] <qman__> which is what your original question sounded like
[17:11] <qman__> you need to set the boot order in the BIOS
[17:11] <Olotila> ... now when I think about it, I seem to have another problem here
[17:11] <qman__> disks are just disks
[17:11] <qman__> whether they're a raid set or not
[17:12] <Olotila> I was not able to see my primary os disk in bios
[17:12] <qman__> as long as your operating systems have the needed drivers, it doesn't matter what sort of configuration you use
[17:12] <Olotila> after plugiin the card in
[17:12] <qman__> then it's more likely a problem with the two disk controllers
[17:12] <Olotila> yeah
[17:12] <Olotila> the adaptec takes over
[17:12] <qman__> maybe a resource conflict, or a loose cable, or hardware incompatibility
[17:13] <Olotila> and it did not see my intel ssd
[17:13] <Olotila> it gave an error about pci I think, just a fraction of a second when booting
[17:13] <Olotila> not enough something
[17:14] <qman__> try turning some features off that you don't need
[17:14] <qman__> like if you have unused serial or parallel ports, or don't use sound, or something like that
[17:14] <Olotila> yeah
[17:14] <Olotila> first I'll take of 4 disks currently in raid
[17:14] <Olotila> which I am planning to throw into adapte
[17:14] <Olotila> c
[17:15] <Olotila> config sata ports to ahci
[17:16] <Olotila> then boot, see what happens
[17:17] <Olotila> then worry about the wonderfull floppy issue, ah how much I love it
[17:17] <qman__> if you're not running windows 2003 or older, you do not need floppies, period
[17:29] <Olotila> I hope so, not sure would I hang myself or somehow get a floppy drive in play
[18:24] <Ronnie> i recently obtained a VPS, i want to send and receive mail. is it wise to install my own mail server, and what are the 'costs' (think about safety, spam etc) or is it better to use an thirth party service (budget is available)
[18:27] <qman__> Ronnie, before you consider any of that, make sure your VPS provider allows you to send mail directly
[18:27] <qman__> many do not, and provide you a relay host instead
[18:28] <Ronnie> qman__: our host does not provide a relay host, if im right we are allowed to send mail (need to check that tought)
[18:28] <qman__> that aside, spam filtering is going to be the most costly part
[18:29] <qman__> locking down a mail server is not that hard, just don't allow relaying and you're 90% there
[18:30] <Ronnie> qman__: and the other 10%
[18:30] <qman__> good user authentication, use TLS/SSL
[18:30] <qman__> and general server security
[18:30] <qman__> don't allow mail users to have SSH access
[18:30] <qman__> just basic stuff
[18:31] <oCean> Ronnie: the amount of effort depends on usage (of course) but generally speaking, system maintenance is a day-to-day task. Once setup, all you have to do is apply updates etc, and monitor logfiles
[18:32] <ikonia> Ronnie: first thing to check is if your IP address is black listed by the public mail lists
[18:32] <ikonia> Ronnie: no point looking at anything until you know that
[18:33] <Ronnie> ikonia: where can i check that?
[18:33] <ikonia> Ronnie: on the public internet
[18:33] <ikonia> Ronnie: if you're not used to running a mail server, I'd advise you not to
[18:33] <qman__> I say it depends on scope
[18:33] <ikonia> Ronnie: I'd suggest looking at either a mail relay provided by your hosting partner, or one of the many subscription services.
[18:33] <qman__> running your own mail server for one domain with a small number of users isn't that hard, and it's a good way to learn the caveats
[18:34] <qman__> but if you have big needs, don't bother at this point
[18:36] <qman__> I co-administer about 50 microsoft exchange servers, one mailenable, and I run a few postfix
[18:36] <qman__> but whatever you do, do not bother with sendmail
[18:36] <qman__> it's archaic and ridiculously overcomplicated
[18:37] <Ronnie> qman__, ikonia. the amount of users is limited. we have customers who need to send invitations trough our webservices (primary reason) and second to send password-self-services mail. Also we want to receive some small amount of feedback and question mails.
[18:38] <ikonia> Ronnie: if you have customers (paying) I would not advise doing it
[18:38] <ikonia> (unless you know what you're doing)
[18:38] <ikonia> if you end up not delivering mails, getting exploited, or getting them blacklisted, it may have business ramifications
[18:38] <qman__> yeah, your first time should not be for a paying customer
[18:40] <oCean> Ronnie: discussing the same topic in multiple channels is not polite
[18:42] <Ronnie> question: is your opinion to outsource the service itself, the maintainance, i.e. (sla) commen for me as a startup webservice?
[18:43] <Ronnie> oCean: i quitted in #ubuntu channel ;)
[18:44] <oCean> I meant the -nl discussion. The ubuntu crowd is everywhere
[18:44] <Ronnie> i usually prefer the dutch channels, but the english are more active and have better knowledge
[19:26] <cocoa117> has anyone got xen domu ubuntu 11.04 PCI passthrough working? i mean through vt-d
[19:27] <cocoa117> i got error message
[19:27] <cocoa117> usbcore: registered new interface driver usbfs
[19:27] <cocoa117> [    0.069076] usbcore: registered new interface driver hub
[19:27] <cocoa117> [    0.069076] usbcore: registered new device driver usb
[19:27] <cocoa117> [    0.069076] PCI: System does not support PCI
[19:27] <cocoa117> [    0.069076] PCI: System does not support PCI
[19:27] <cocoa117> i do have xen pci-front module installed
[19:28] <magicblaze007> is there an easy way to add VM without rebooting?
[20:33] <TDJACR> ANyone here have LXC experience?
38: DeprecationWarning: the whrandom module is deprecated; please use the random module
[21:14] <PleXs> anyone know how to fix this?
[21:14] <PleXs> install older python release? :)
[21:16] <jmarsden> PleXs: Deprecation warnings are not a problem.  The code you have is working fine as is.
[21:16] <PleXs> aah ok
[21:16] <jmarsden> PleXs: They are a warning to developers of the Python app to update it soon so NEXT time, it will still work.
[21:17] <jmarsden> PleXs: They have been turned off by defautl in Python 3.0 to avoid confusing users like you :)
[21:17] <PleXs> nothing to worry about :)
[21:17] <jmarsden> Exactly.
[22:56] <RoyK> google was fine, but now, trying to find historic data is hard - seems first you have to filter out the google ads and then you have to write intricate queries to find what you're looking for, that is, if it wasn't yesterday's news