ali1234misplaced notifications still isn't fixed00:01
ali1234not that i mind00:01
ali1234installing flash through the software centre is "interesting"00:05
ali1234if you search in the dash the first thing it shows is the amd64 metapackage for nspluginwrapper - even if you are on a i386 machine00:06
ali1234so you have to click on the second result00:06
ali1234not that you can tell because they both look identical00:06
ali1234apparently if you pick the second one on amd64 it doesn't work00:09
ali1234i assume this should be reported against unity-places-applications?00:13
ali1234~info vrms00:14
ali1234!info vrms00:14
lubotu3vrms (source: vrms): virtual Richard M. Stallman. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.15 (natty), package size 12 kB, installed size 100 kB00:14
daftykinsyou have what installed O_O00:15
ali1234i don't have it installed00:15
ali1234i just saw it while searching for unity-places-applications00:15
daftykinsi see00:15
ali1234which is actually called unity-place-applications00:15
daftykinssounds a little - odd00:15
ali1234well quite00:16
* daftykins hands out the monacles O_.00:16
ali1234bug 86374500:23
lubotu3Launchpad bug 863745 in unity-lens-applications (Ubuntu) "Searching for "flash" in the "applications for download" section of the dash gives confusing results." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/86374500:23
daftykinsOSs are beginning to look quite confusing without a stock WIMP UI00:24
ali1234"i told you so"00:24
daftykinsjust looking at some screenshots of Oneiric now00:24
ali1234the whole point of all of these things is supposedly to make them easier to use00:25
ali1234but it just makes them more frustrating00:25
ali1234because it gives all the control to the software00:25
ali1234and the software is usually broken00:25
daftykinsi got linked to an amusing article on gnome3 from some intel guy and Linus Torvalds00:25
ali1234so now i can get tripped up by stupid things like this, purely because the information isn't available to me00:25
daftykinsfrom their perspective, rather00:25
daftykinsyeah i'm not fond of the way 'computing' is going00:25
daftykinsi haven't even really touched ubuntu 11.0400:26
ali1234this is relevant http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2011/09/meego-and-opensuse-invitation.html00:27
ali1234not that i'm saying you should switch to opensuse00:27
ali1234but the core message is worth repeating00:27
ali1234the reason this annoys me so much is that yes, you can make an argument that synaptic is confusing for the noobs00:33
ali1234but the replacement is no less confusing, in fact it is worse, because even i can't make sense of it00:33
ali1234because the information just isn't there, whether you can understand it or not00:33
ali1234and this just presents a barrier for people who want to learn00:34
ali1234you can't reason logically abut which icon is more appropriate00:34
ali1234you just have to guess00:34
daftykinsthose that know, are stumped. so how can 'lesser' users have a chance? all they can hope for is clicking the right combinations of fancy pictures (icons) until something happens00:35
ali1234have faith in the fancy icons00:36
ali1234that is the very antithesis of what free and open source software is all about00:36
ali1234if i wanted to put my faith in some hidden away system i'd be using apple or microsoft00:36
daftykinsi can kind of understand how the desktop environment people (probably the wrong term, there) don't really know where to go from here - that's fair to say isn't it? we've had a lot of similar stuff for a long time00:37
ali1234but just because something is 20 years old, doesn't mean it's bad00:37
daftykinsbut yeah right now they're more about user experimentation than user interface design00:37
ali1234sure, from a marketing pov, it is harder to sell00:37
ali1234also here's another thing00:38
ali1234compare that opensuse post to jono's recent post about "getting your apps in ubuntu"00:39
ali1234the opensuse guy is community manager too00:39
ali1234jono's is a lot more diplomatic :)00:39
ali1234but still has a veiled reference to meego in that he mentions "qt and qml"00:39
shaunoI honestly think developer.u.c is a bad joke :/00:40
ali1234i;ve never seen it before00:40
daftykinsthat concorde-effected on me00:40
ali1234what exactly do you think is wrong with it?00:40
ali1234what's concorde-effected mean?00:40
shaunoit feels a whole lot like they've decided they need an "ecosystem" to match the ios/android/etc models00:41
ali1234well that's because they have00:41
ali1234and they do00:41
ali1234but you have to remember that that is all they mean by "developer"00:41
ali1234people who make fart apps basically00:42
ali1234the only thing i see wrong with it is the focus on pygtk/quickly - which are just frankly awful tools00:42
daftykinsali1234: it went right over my head00:42
ali1234qt creator is lightyears ahead, and can compete with apple and windows development systems00:42
ali1234and that's the reason the qt and qml reference in jono's post stuck out for me00:43
ali1234i've never heard him push anything but quickly before00:43
daftykinsoic it was an abbreviation for .ubuntu.com00:43
ali1234so i don't think it was a coincidence with the meego situation and all00:44
ali1234(if you didn't know, meego was supposed to use qt for app dev, but now it's dead, replaced by tizen, which it seems won't have qt at all)00:45
daftykinsoh so they're turning ubuntu into a platform for smartphone-like apps00:45
daftykinscareful gents, the ship's going down00:46
ali1234have you been living under a rock for the past year?00:46
hamitronit is probably the right direction00:46
daftykinsi've been nowhere near Ubuntu in about that long, yes00:46
ali1234it's not just ubuntu00:46
ali1234meego was entirely about making a platform to shift apps00:46
daftykinsoh i see00:46
ali1234except intel and nokia wanted to do it all themselves00:47
ali1234so instead of forking some established distro, they started over from scratch00:47
daftykinsyou'll have to forgive me, i've read the links but i'm quite slow and have had a few :)00:47
ali1234then a year later, when they were just about at the point of getting a viable base distro (think ubuntu maverick), nokia decided to go to windows mobile instead00:47
hamitronali1234, you are using unity?00:47
ali1234and now another 6 months later, intel have quit too00:47
daftykinsi'd heard the name in the news but no idea on this background00:47
ali1234hamitron: yes, i've been using it for 6 months now00:48
hamitronk :)00:48
hamitronso what are intel backing?00:48
daftykinsis that painful?00:48
ali1234so anyway, now meego has no commercial backers00:48
ali1234hamitron: tizen00:48
ali1234meego was supposedly this open community thing00:48
hamitronI think I may have to use google to know wtf that is00:49
ali1234but really it was only ever nokia and intel, and a forum where people could pretend they were involved00:49
ali1234hamitron: if you go to meego.com there is now a link to tizen.com at the top of every page00:49
ali1234it appeared there a couple days ago along with a blog post from intel basically saying "sorry everyone, meego is dead now. thanks for your time, now get out"00:49
ali1234like everything thats ever happened with meego, this all happened without anyone in the community having any idea it was coming00:50
hamitrontizen sounds like a different kind of system00:50
ali1234it isn't, really00:50
ali1234there's only so many ways you can package up linux kernel, glibc, core utils00:51
hamitrondidn't meego focus on native apps more?00:51
ali1234the difference with tizen is there will be far less standards involved in implementing "compliance"00:51
ali1234yes, meego was about native apps with qt00:51
ali1234tizen is all html5 apps00:51
ali1234but that doesn't really mean they are not native00:51
ali1234meego was all QML00:51
ali1234QML isn't really very different from HTML500:51
ali1234i sure the syntax is different00:51
ali1234but they are both markup languages00:52
ali1234they both use javascript00:52
ali1234and the way they treat objects ont he page is quite similar00:52
ali1234QML certainly is not "native" by any stretch00:52
hamitronHTML5 was probably set to "win" over QML though00:53
ali1234technically QML and Qt are better than html500:53
ali1234but html just has way more momentum and support00:53
daftykinsis tizen meant to be a mobile platform only, or?00:56
ali1234well depends on your definition of mobile really00:56
ali1234it's for set top boxes, in vehicle displays etc00:56
ali1234anything that could potentially have "apps" installed, but isn't a "real" computer00:57
ali1234meego was never meant for end users00:57
daftykinsoh i see00:57
ali1234it was meant to be adapted for and sold with OEM hardware00:57
daftykinsfor some reason i thought it was going to be a mobile phone OS00:57
ali1234tizen will be no different00:57
ali1234it is going to be a mobile phone OS as well00:57
hamitrontizen sounds promising tbh00:58
ali1234don't fall for it00:58
ali1234meego sounded promising too00:58
ali1234so did maemo00:58
ali1234so did moblin00:58
ali1234all now abandoned00:58
hamitronwell, I think this has something going for it00:58
hamitronwith the cross platform apps00:58
hamitronand just sounds simple00:59
ali1234i take it you've never tried to use OBS00:59
ali1234simple it is not00:59
hamitronok :)00:59
ali1234not that the others are any better00:59
ali1234but in the end it's just linux00:59
shaunoI find it oddly entertaining that there's so many contenders for the completely-nonexistant linux-phone market01:00
ali1234once you've built it and installed the packages, there's not much difference between distros01:00
ali1234shauno: you've missed the point01:00
ali1234it's not about selling an operating system01:00
ali1234it's about giving away an operating system that is tied to your app store01:00
ali1234meego was never going to be shipped in a way that could be called "open"01:00
hamitronand saving on writing the OS yourself ;)01:01
ali1234OEMs like samsung dream of being able to sell a mobile device tied to an app store and take a cut of every piece of software sold01:01
ali1234they could do that with microsoft, but they are too cheap to split the profits01:01
ali1234they want it all01:01
ali1234linux allows them to build their own half-assed distro and DRM it up, tie it to their app store01:02
hamitronI only see Apple and Google in a position for that atm01:02
ali1234but they are also too cheap to even do that themselves01:02
hamitronand Amazon01:02
ali1234so meego and tizen were invented in order to trick the linux community into making it all for them01:02
shaunothat's pretty much exactly what amazon just did with the kindle fire.  it's the most sewn-shut android going, and people are going nuts for it01:02
ali1234with the offer that "you'll get a real open linux smartphone if you help us"01:03
ali1234"not like that android where you have no say over the governance"01:03
hamitronthe kindle fire would interest me, if I knew it was going to have a longer life than the current android devices01:03
ali1234except it didn't work out like that01:03
ali1234it worked out exactly as open as android except more buggy and with no devices01:03
daftykinsi'm waiting for my HP Touchpad to get android :)01:03
ali1234but hey, when android was only 1.5 years old it sucked too01:04
hamitrondaftykins, fun yes, but I just want something that is "normal" and works01:04
ali1234if they keep starting over every 1.5 years they'll never get past the suckage01:04
ali1234unless they base off another distro, like canonical wisely chose to01:04
hamitronis there any more news on webOS?01:04
ali1234webos supposedly to be sold to amazon?01:04
ali1234daftykins: some people are working on a touchpad bootloader in #msm-bootloader01:05
daftykinshamitron: why won't that work 0o01:05
hamitronif that happens, that answers my question on how long amazon will support the fire :/01:05
ali1234amazon will support it as long as people keep buying stuff with it01:06
daftykinsali1234: neat, the cyanogenmod team are doing well01:06
hamitrondaftykins, by "just works", I mean with no hassle, fully supported01:06
daftykinshamitron: so you want to be locked into a content provider?01:06
ali1234daftykins: the htclinux people too01:06
hamitrondaftykins, only on that 1 device01:06
daftykinsah i was not aware of htc linux01:07
daftykinsff 7.0.1 already 0o01:07
daftykinswho broke what...01:07
ali1234they do more crazy stuff than cyanogen... they port android to windows mobile phones :)01:07
ali1234and now the touchpad01:07
daftykinsah yes they made HaRET01:07
daftykinsi've used that on my HTC Touch Diamond to boot android01:07
ali1234anyway i am confident it will happen... plenty of smart people are working on it01:07
daftykinsuseless on a phone with 192MB RAM though01:07
ali1234i have a phone with 64mb that runs android 1.601:08
ali1234or 1.5... or was it 1.4?01:08
ali1234anyway it's useless01:08
ali1234noooo donot buy those cheapass tablets01:08
ali1234"N700" lol01:08
hamitronali1234, I won't.... it turns out I am cheaper than even that tablet ;)01:09
daftykinswasn't that an ancient nokia?01:09
daftykinshamitron: you missed the touchpads then?01:09
ali1234you're thinking of the N770... and i think that's the idea :)01:09
hamitrondaftykins, too expensive01:09
ali1234that was the first maemo device01:09
daftykinseven during the firesale?01:09
ali1234almost everyone missed them01:09
hamitronby the time the touchpad is running android in a useful way, android will have greater requirements imo01:10
ali1234even the mobile analysts i know failed to purchase them01:10
daftykinsah i got 2 as i was in the US at the time01:10
ali1234and they know everything that's going to happen 2 weeks in advance01:10
hamitrona mate offered me one for £90 he'd got01:11
hamitronbut i decided I wouldn't use it01:11
ali1234you probably wouldn't01:11
ali1234i don't use any of the mobile stuffi have01:11
hamitronme neither01:11
daftykinsi've used it for google reader on the toilet so far01:12
daftykinsthink i'll have more use once android's on01:12
hamitronI'd rather buy a few books on stuff I want to learn01:12
daftykinsas i could do something with XBMC01:12
hamitronand as for how the computing market is going.... not interested01:13
hamitronI like a traditional upgradeable PC01:13
daftykinsheh i don't get companies releasing those all-in-ones now01:13
hamitronwell, I think tablets will take over, or something like them01:14
daftykinsfor the common folk, yeah01:14
hamitronand as that happens, I won't be so interested01:14
daftykinssaw so many on boat trips and airports recently01:14
hamitronthere will still be people like us ofc01:14
daftykinsi think it's the touch manipulation, it really appeals to the simpler folk01:14
daftykinsthough, as i was teaching recently, they're definitely getting worse01:15
hamitronwhat are?01:15
ali1234tabets won't takeover, that is silly01:15
hamitronhow you mean?01:15
ali1234like was said the other day, do you think people will run autocad on a tablet? maya? avid?01:16
hamitronali1234, the average user doesn't load autocad01:16
daftykinsthey do their social networking, general arsing around in browsers - but basically consider OSs and anything lower level to be pixie dust and magic01:16
hamitronthey load facebook01:16
ali1234i know this01:16
ali1234computers existed before facebook01:16
ali1234and they will continue to exist01:16
daftykinsthus, kids are getting worse01:16
ali1234you can still buy a typewriter if you want to!01:16
daftykinsi'm on a heavily modded one right now!01:17
ali1234computers wern't mass market until about ... 199501:17
daftykinsquad ink ribbons01:17
hamitronthey will exist, sure.... but the PC in the home like now, will die away01:17
ali1234yes, the entertainment PC will die01:17
hamitroneven the PC to do basic work01:17
ali1234but it was never a particularly good solution anyway01:18
ali1234most people don't want a PC01:18
hamitronword processing and stuff01:18
ali1234word processing on a tablet... no01:18
ali1234ipad can't even print01:18
daftykinsthink it can now01:18
ali1234these devices are not meant for creation01:18
ali1234except creating apps01:18
ali1234from which the OEMs can take a cut01:18
hamitronI think tablets will evolve01:19
daftykinsindeed, amazon kinda has it right with the fire being about consumption01:19
ali1234they're not even for that01:19
ali1234they are devices for consumption only01:19
daftykinsthough i'm a tad confused who wants to watch TV+film on a small screen on the go01:19
ali1234consuming bandwidth, media, apps, anything that can be charged for01:19
daftykinsalso, when the demo guy said they can resume what they're watching on the big screen - what device do they mean?01:19
ali1234amazon is spot on with the fire01:19
ali1234the question is whether they have the technical ability to support an android device01:20
ali1234kindle software is kind of flaky...01:20
ali1234daftykins: shifting media between screens is something meego was supposed to do01:20
hamitronI still think the average business will be happy to replace PC with more feature full tablet/small devices01:20
daftykinsoh so just HDMI output?01:20
ali1234except it never worked because about the only thing they didn't put in the compliance spec was what codecs a meego device should support01:20
ali1234daftykins: no, the cloud knows where you were in the video and knows how to resume on another device01:21
ali1234it was even demoed at some meego conference01:21
daftykinsoh yeah01:21
ali1234but it was doomed because of codec issues01:21
ali1234it would only have worked if all your media was ogg with no drm01:21
daftykinsbut right now when amazon refer to it01:21
ali1234otherwise, meego probably wouldn't have been able to play it01:21
daftykinswhat's going to be the device under the TV?01:21
ali1234well the kindle already does it with books01:22
ali1234the device under the TV will be a set top box01:22
hamitrondaftykins, it won't need to be under the tv, it will probably comunicate wirelessly01:22
ali1234like your PVR, except with internet, basically01:22
daftykinsoh a WiDi thing01:22
daftykinsbut that's intel D:01:22
ali1234or rather like an average person's PVR01:22
ali1234wireless or not is irrelevant01:23
hamitronwhat is to stop having the PVR in the cloud?01:23
daftykinsyeah, was gonna say i think TV recording is an old usage model now01:23
ali1234they want to sell you two boxes, both of which are connected to the cloud (for which you'll have to pay for bandwidth of course)01:23
ali1234hamitron: the PVR *will* be in the cloud01:23
ali1234but you'll still need a box to connect to your TV01:23
ali1234or a TV with such a box integrated01:24
ali1234either way doesn't matter01:24
hamitronor whatever it is over the network01:24
daftykinsDNLA / DLNA01:24
hamitronthat is it01:24
ali1234aka upnp01:24
ali1234which was a nice try01:24
daftykinsi used the youtube functionality on a Sharp blu-ray player the other day01:25
ali1234but another "standard" that died due to nobody made their devices compatible01:25
daftykinsoh my gawd they're terrible01:25
hamitronwhy couldn't android offer a new version of it?01:25
ali1234making that stuff actually work across manufacturers was a stated goal of meego01:25
ali1234hamitron: it could. it will.01:25
ali1234hamitron: meego and tizen existed because the OEMs are frankly terrified of google and apple01:25
ali1234google already has "google tv"01:26
hamitrongoogle do 1 thing wrong01:26
hamitronthey start too many things, and let some fail so often01:27
ali1234imo the one thing google does wrong is be too honest01:27
hamitronoften half assed01:27
ali1234people complain about google and privacy and then they go and use facebook, ilife, and msn live, as if they are any different01:27
ali1234the only difference is google are up front about what they do01:27
ali1234the same thing can be said about meego vs android01:28
ali1234meego made a big thing about being more open than android01:28
* hamitron has been tempted to quit everything and just use his own stuff01:28
ali1234but in the end they were exactly the same in terms of openness01:28
ali1234the only difference being google were up front from the start about who was in control01:29
ali1234while meego (ie intel and nokia) just kept making promises and then breaking them01:29
hamitronI know we all use open source stuff here.... but tbh, it often takes someone controlling something, to make it good01:29
ali1234very much so01:29
hamitronso it has direction01:29
daftykinsoh yeah01:29
ali1234a guy from google made a post in response to "openness" complaints01:30
daftykinsand someone headed in a direction you like01:30
* hamitron breaths sigh of relief, not getting flamed01:30
ali1234basically what he said was, the only thing that matters is, is the source available? is it free? and does it compile?01:30
ali1234when he made that post, meego still wouldn't compile properly01:30
ali1234unless you had an account on a machine in the cloud01:30
ali1234a machine running OBS01:30
hamitronI assume he means "free", like how the FSF define it01:31
ali1234and you had to track down a dude on irc and ask him to give you an account01:31
ali1234hamitron: free to be reused, yes01:31
ali1234hang on, i'll find the post01:31
daftykinswhat a ridiculous idea01:34
hamitronI automatically ignore all email anyway01:35
hamitronor it must seem that way01:36
daftykinsi keep getting my addy signed up to stuff by a Dennis <my surname> in america01:36
daftykinsget some new spam, "god damn it Dennis"01:36
hamitronI've started to spam spammers01:36
hamitronwhen i can be bothered01:36
daftykinsfinally i somehow discovered his actual address and sent him an email, but he was more interested in chasing our family tree01:36
shaunoI keep getting mail for someone in the UK.  which is odd, since my email address is my full name.  and he doesn't have my name.01:37
daftykinsyeah i got email for a couple more d(something) <mysurname>01:37
daftykinsas i'm a Dave01:37
daftykinsand i replied to the latest saying, er this isn't his address01:37
daftykinsthey replied saying they'd basically guessed at his address01:37
daftykinshaha i've still got Dennis' emails01:38
ali1234hamitron: https://plus.google.com/114765095157367281222/posts/VjjxfHcc2dg01:38
hamitronnot available01:39
shaunoI ended up sending this chap an sms asking him to quit it, when he signed up to vodafone using my email address01:39
daftykinsshauno: that's amazing - get a reply?01:39
shaunoyeah.  he denied he did01:39
shaunodespite the fact I was sending him webtexts from his own account, since they'd mailed me all the details01:39
shauno(and it costs me money to sms the UK)01:40
daftykinshow long did it go on for?01:40
shaunoI still get his mail :/01:40
shaunobut not from vodafone anymore, oddly enough01:40
hamitroncan you terminate his contract?01:40
daftykinsi had a great one asking if i'd go over and tutor some woman's daughter/son in California01:41
daftykinsi wasn't free that day, sadly...01:41
daftykinsso i decided to let her know i wouldn't make it01:42
daftykinsand that perhaps she'd better contact the actual tutor01:42
hamitronomg, why do i get no good emails? :/01:42
hamitronmine are all viagra and huge lottery wins01:42
daftykinsi'm happy to report everyone replies really gratefully to me after i point out their mistake :)01:42
daftykinsalthough i never replied to Dennis about the family tree :S01:43
dogmatic69_what is worse sudo rm -rf / or sudo chmod -r 0000 /01:43
daftykinsin Ubuntu you can just modify the hostname and not match it up with the hosts file01:43
hamitronrm imo01:43
daftykins= sudo borked01:43
daftykinsneed a livecd to repair :D01:43
dogmatic69_the both would suck01:44
shaunoI think I'd rather rm.  easier to clean up.  permissions can be subtle01:46
daftykinstrue, that. i spent ages earlier today diagnosing why a Ricoh printer/all-in-one wouldn't push scan to a samba share01:46
hamitroncould something like sh be replaced with a script to shutdown, just to annoy someone easy?01:47
daftykinspermissions were actually fine, just for some reason the printer needed a restart *and* the server, but the server after01:47
daftykinssamba restarts didn't solve it 0o01:47
daftykinshamitron: cruel01:47
hamitronthey'd wonder what happened01:48
daftykinsi probably told this before01:48
daftykinsbut when i was a student in College, IE had that thing where some code could eject your optical drive01:48
dogmatic69_hamitron: maybe alias ls="sudo shutdown -P 0"01:48
shaunoshutdown's mean.  something like PROMPT_COMMAND=eject  is harmless and fun :)01:49
daftykinsi made up a CD-R labelled "Windows XP SPx" and put autorun config on it to auto place that webpage with a hidden internet explorer window in Windows' startup folders01:49
daftykinsand another class guy took it :>01:49
hamitronnaughty :/01:51
daftykinsright i'm calling it a night01:53
daftykinslater all o/01:53
hamitronI'm cosnidering it too01:53
MartijnVdS \o06:42
=== gaussnewton is now known as emrachel
czajkowskiRugby time07:20
togsterGeneric greetings to all07:22
AlanBellmorning all07:33
czajkowskino lord :(07:34
czajkowskihowdy popey07:41
czajkowskinicely done 3 pts on the board for scotland07:41
czajkowskioh dear07:50
scoundrel50awhat channel is for talking about oneiric?08:01
popeyyou can here if you like08:01
popeywhats up?08:01
popeythere is also #ubuntu+108:02
scoundrel50aI wsa just wondering, on the window, there is only an x to close, nothing else, is that going to change?08:02
* AlanBell will be doing some screencasts of Oneiric later08:02
scoundrel50aI like the gui for oneiric, and its getting less buggy08:03
MooDoohello all08:03
AlanBellscoundrel50a: is that a window that doesn't resize?08:03
scoundrel50aeverything I open wont resize08:04
scoundrel50ajust has an  x to close08:04
popeycan you show us a screenshot?08:04
AlanBellthat doesn't sound right, there are a couple of programs that don't resize, but most should, and should have the window controls08:05
scoundrel50aum, have a problem, I have a lenovo laptop, but cant find the print screen button on it, is there a program for pront screen?08:07
scoundrel50agive me a couple of minutes, I call them up, brb08:08
AlanBellscoundrel50a: run gnome-screenshot -i08:09
scoundrel50aoh wow, that is good, ok, I need to add it to imgur one sec08:11
scoundrel50aok, that shows x-chat what and firefox and they both only have an x08:12
scoundrel50aall windows I open are the same08:12
AlanBellthat is all wrong!08:12
popeythats just the accessibility theme enabled isnt it?08:12
AlanBellwhat theme is that?08:12
popeyoh, no thats gnome shell08:13
popeyscoundrel50a: you installed gnome-shell?08:13
scoundrel50ayes, and its highcontrast theme, but its like that on all the windows08:13
AlanBellit isn't just the high contrast theme08:13
popeythats not unity08:13
popeythats gnome-shell08:14
scoundrel50aI will change it to something else to show you08:14
popeyscoundrel50a: whats the history of this install?08:14
scoundrel50ait was installed from Linux Emporium, with just unity, then I installed gnome shell08:15
AlanBellas luck would have it the high contrast theme was on my list to screenshot anyway  . . .08:15
czajkowskiif anyone is around the lord I suggest stepping back08:15
scoundrel50awith 11.-04 dual boot08:15
popeyscoundrel50a: you upgraded to 11.10?08:16
scoundrel50aits on dual boot with 11.04 so its on its own partition08:17
popeyah, gotcha08:17
scoundrel50aand its just a Ubuntu machine, no windows08:18
popeyso your original question seemed to assume this was the gui in 11.10, which it isnt08:19
popeyUnity is the default desktop user interface in 11.10, but you can install gnome-shell if you like, as you have discovered08:19
AlanBelleither way, the window controls should exist08:19
scoundrel50athey are there in Unity, not in gnome-shell08:20
AlanBellI will try installing gnome-shell later (when I have all the screenshots I want08:21
scoundrel50ait is worth installing though, I prefer it to unity08:22
AlanBellI am doing screenshots of the high contrast theme, the onboard on screen keyboard and a screencast with audio of the screenreader install08:23
popeyi filed a bug against onboard last night08:23
popeyduring a google hangout with jorge and jason08:23
AlanBellthere is a performance issue with it on top of the 3d dash08:24
popeyits quite handy having one of the unity developers on your screen :|D08:24
AlanBellI blame gord08:24
popeyonboard can reliably crash unity if you press the right keys08:24
AlanBellbut I am very pleased that DBO managed to scrape in the code to allow onboard to type into the 3d dash at all08:24
popeyopen onboard, and click ALT in it then click the button above tab08:25
AlanBellpopey: maximise onboard in unity 2d08:25
popeydoes that do similar?08:25
AlanBellthen try and get out of the situation :)08:25
AlanBellno window controls, it refuses focus, no keyboard shortcuts, no double click the title bar08:26
czajkowskidanfish: you watchin this pile of you know what08:26
AlanBell*boom* alt+` in onboard doesn't make unity a happy desktop08:27
* AlanBell adds to the a11y release notes08:28
popeyits already fixed08:28
AlanBelloh good08:28
popeyhe fixed it last night08:28
AlanBelltesting has been so late this cycle08:28
popeystability has been so late this cycle :D08:29
AlanBellyup, it just has not been runnable enough to test08:29
AlanBellI really hope the LTS starts out pretty much as Oneiric is right now08:30
brobostigongood morning everyone.08:32
brobostigonwhats firefox 7 like? iceweasel, debian's version of FF was just upgraded to 7 here in debian unstable.08:38
popeyno idea, i dont use firefox08:38
brobostigonjust curious, havent used it in years.08:39
brobostigoni use chromium now.08:39
czajkowskibrobostigon: it;s ok08:39
czajkowskilot of the plugins aren;t caught up to work wiht it yet08:40
brobostigonczajkowski: ah, i see. from that reponse, i think it isnt worth my time trying then. thank you for your insight.08:41
popeyi do love chroot08:49
popeychrooting to a natty install on another disk and upgrading it to oneiric08:49
popey 09:07
czajkowski 09:40
bigcalmBreaking news: popey and czajkowski lost for words. More at 1109:56
nymwarsilence of the lambs09:56
=== Lcawte is now known as Guest61227
ali1234oneiric goes into suspend even if you disable it in the settings10:02
ali1234hmm if i click a disk icon multiple times it opens multiple windows - unlike every other icon on the launcher10:11
MooDoobigcalm: czajkowski lost for words?  never!!! lies!!!10:12
directhexi wonder if i can play popeycraft over 3g10:15
bigcalmdirecthex: I regularly do it when staying at PremierInn hotels10:16
bigcalmHayley likes to take a while in the shower, what else am I to do? :P10:16
directhexdon't premier inn have wiffle?10:17
bigcalmThey do, which you have to pay for10:17
bigcalmMinecraft doesn't require that much bandwidth really10:18
bigcalm3g is good enough10:18
nymwarI never understood the minecraft fad10:19
directhexnymwar, it's not a game. that's the #1 thing to remember10:19
bigcalmSimple things amuse me. Like my credit card saying 3,333. Of course it means I have a crap load to pay off, but still amused10:19
nymwarif it's not a game does that mean it's a religion?10:20
directhexnymwar, it's a toy.10:20
directhexmonopoly is a game. you can win at monopoly. a barbie is a toy. you can't win at barbie.10:20
pr0ph3thi all10:56
popeyali1234: i have noticed this suspending too11:24
ali1234it is a known bug11:25
popeyah ok11:25
lubotu3Ubuntu bug 854624 in gnome-power-manager (Ubuntu) "[oneiric] suspend/hibernate not performed according to "Power Settings"" [Undecided,Fix released]11:25
LaneyI like the bug where if you set the monitor to never turn off it actually turns off instantly11:31
MartijnVdSSuspending (and brightness up/down) only work after suspending+resuming first on my laptop11:32
MartijnVdSalso a great feature 8-)11:32
directhexdid they fix the bug where if you turn off your laptop display & turn on only the external display, it turns off all displays?11:33
directhexnatty shipped with that11:33
popeyalan@wopr:~$ sudo apt-get update11:37
popeyE: The method driver /usr/lib/apt/methods/https could not be found.11:37
MartijnVdSpopey: apt-get install apt-transport-https11:37
MartijnVdSit has a few dependencies..11:37
MartijnVdSwe use it at work with client certs so only "official" machines can use the internal repo11:39
MartijnVdS(this makes configuring pbuilder.. interesting.. too :))11:39
MartijnVdSSpeaking of lovely bugs.. Alt+F2 -> type too fast <enter> --> previous program started using Alt+F2 gets run (instead of intended one)11:48
windmillhello, oneiric: is there a way to adjust delay before screen dimming? it dims a bit quick for me11:54
MartijnVdSwindmill: it should be in either the "Screen" or "Power" preferences11:58
windmillMartijnVdS, it jsut seem to be an on-off option with no control12:00
windmillIt seems to dim after about 5 seconds, I'd like it a little longer as if I'm reading a screen full of text it is a bit distracting12:02
MartijnVdSI have no idea where configs are stored these days12:04
MartijnVdSthere used to be keys in gconf that you could adjust12:04
MartijnVdSbut not anymore, it seems12:04
pr0ph3thi all12:41
pr0ph3tI have noticed the disappearance of the Mobile Broadband option on the pop-up network manager in 11.10, any of you experiencing the same thing?12:42
pr0ph3tso when clicking on the wireless icon in the top bar I cannot connect to mobile broadband anymore12:43
pr0ph3tor is there a separate channel to talk about the next version of Ubuntu12:44
AlanBellthere is #ubuntu+112:45
popey  hmm12:45
* popey plugs his mobile broadband dongle in12:45
AlanBellno there isn't :)12:45
* AlanBell has screwed up channels12:45
AlanBellthats better, #ubuntu+1 is the right channel, but so is this one12:46
popeyyup, plugged in my dongle and it asks for the pin unlock code12:46
popeyand i see it listed in network manager12:47
pr0ph3tpopey, can you disable it in the pop-up window?12:47
popeywhat popup window?12:47
pr0ph3tas in un-tick the Mobil Broadband12:48
popeyin what popup window?12:48
popeythe menu you get when you click network?12:48
pr0ph3ttop bar, to the right, where the wireless icon is12:48
popeyits not ticked12:48
popeyso there's nothing to untick12:48
pr0ph3tbut it shows12:48
pr0ph3tright, that's what happens when you un-tick your main connection12:50
pr0ph3tunfortunately I have a very annoying internal dongle and although I managed to get it to work in previous versions of Ubuntu every time I install a new version it stops working again12:52
pr0ph3tif I get the error -1 Unknown symbol in module when doing insmod is it because I'm doing something wrong?13:00
kirrusWhy is there still people on IRC.. it is *beautiful* outside!13:03
penguin42kirrus: Vamparism13:04
MooDooat work :(13:04
kirrusMooDoo: as am I ;)13:04
kirruspopey: Sunshade + Drink-with-lots-of-ice?13:05
gordpfft i was outside this morning, it was a giant mistake13:05
kirrusgord: you get burned?13:05
gordi'm pretty sure the giant ball of gasses fusing together is trying to kill us13:05
kirrusNah, it's only trying to kill you.13:05
kirrustea tree based after sun lotion helps a lot imho13:06
shaunoireland helps a lot too.  13º of pure grey here13:08
* kirrus is very glad he doesn't have to put the expensive electric heating on for a while yet13:09
penguin42anyone know a way to debug why apt is saying 'The following packages cannot be authenticated' ?13:09
penguin42it's a package from multiverse, and I have the latest ubuntu-keychain installed13:09
kirruspenguin42: this might be a silly question, but have you updated your repo list?13:10
kirrusas in, done an apt-get update13:10
penguin42kirrus: Why would I need to do that ?13:10
penguin42kirrus: Well I'm not sure when I last did - but why would that cause a cannot be authenticated error?13:11
pr0ph3tso, what could be causing the Unknown symbol error when I do "sudo insmod module.ko"?13:11
pr0ph3tan actual error in the coding of the module?13:11
penguin42pr0ph3t: It normally shows the symbols in dmesg if it's missing one13:11
kirruspenguin42: sometimes packages are removed, or updated, and so don't get authenticated. It's worth doing an apt-get update before you try installing anything, so you've got an up-to-date listing. Not too critical on modern ubuntu systems, as they tend to do one every day anyway, for the package update listing13:13
penguin42kirrus: OK, go back a step - where does the authentication come from?13:13
* penguin42 is trying to understand the error in detail, not just fix it!13:14
kirruspenguin42: each package is PGP signed, and the core keys are in the keychain package. Its decrypting this that gives you the authentication - to make sure the package hasn't been altered13:14
kirrusOr rather, checking the signature, not decrypting, as they're not encrypted.13:15
penguin42kirrus: OK, so why would an apt-get update fix that?13:15
kirrusIf you've an out-of-date package list, you might be trying to get a package that has been moved or changed, so you're getting one without the signature your system is expecting for that package13:16
penguin42kirrus: I didn't think that could happen; if the package was updated then it would have a different version number and filename, if I tried to apt-get that then it would fail with a not found13:16
kirrusAlso, the keychain may have been updated, and if you've not updated your package list, you can't be sure you've not got the current one.13:16
kirruspenguin42: I'm not sure exactly why it happens, just that it does.13:17
penguin42(an apt-get update did just fix it! But I'd still like to understand why)13:17
kirruspenguin42: you could try waiting for someone who knows the packaging system better than I. jpds might have an idea.13:17
pr0ph3tthere are 7 unknown "symbols", they could be functions (i.e. input_register_polled_device (err 0)). Does that mean I'm missing something?13:17
penguin42pr0ph3t: It is either you're missing another module it depends on or the symbol names changed13:18
popeykirrus: I may dip in the pool later13:19
popeyjust unclogged the filter, full of grass13:19
kirruspopey: sounds like a plan \o/. Is it a 'solar heated' pool (i.e. the sun on it's own)13:20
popeypump & heater13:21
popeyit's 30 degrees right now :D13:22
popeymight have to go down the shop and get beer to drink whilst in said pool13:22
kirrusSounds wonderful13:22
* kirrus is not getting jealous again. 13:22
kirrusoh, penguin42, you could try asking on #ubuntu or on the ubuntu-uk mailing list, rather than wasting the glorious sunshine ;) :)13:23
penguin42kirrus: Hey I went out yesterday, I don't want to over do it!13:23
kirruspenguin42: there is no such thing as overdoing it in the UK, when we're going to be stuck with a whole winter of dull grey days ;)13:29
penguin42kirrus: Especially in Manchester13:29
kirruspenguin42: so what are you doing still inside? :P13:30
penguin42I've not woken up yet; it's only 2.3013:30
Azelphur70C at idle is way too hot for a Q9400, right?14:28
hamitronAzelphur, you don't need thermal socks for your cpu :/14:31
* SuprEngr has found a way to make Unity more "ok for the eyes" - simples, background illumination -off- by default [well done Compiz!]15:22
SuprEngr[it's amazing what a day off work lets you find -0 stuff that what was available all along. doh!]15:26
funkyHathum. Just put a DVD drive in my MicroServer, but I'm struggling to break out the metal bit from the case...16:27
funkyHatahar. Just needed to push a bit harder16:28
penguin42use a larger hammer16:34
=== ejos is now known as esoj
Azelphurhaha, that doctor that's on the news recently, doctor richard scott17:44
Azelphurthat's my doctor o.O17:44
MartijnVdSThe Doctor?17:44
MartijnVdSOnly 20 more minutes :P17:45
Azelphurhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-15021419 nah this one17:45
ikoniathis Doctor Who is just random nonsense now18:27
ikoniathey can't think up plots, so they are just writing random words on a page and calling it a script18:28
=== Guest61227 is now known as Lcawte
czajkowskihows folks19:00
zleapi am good19:00
czajkowskiI am all shopped out19:03
penguin42bought anything fun?19:04
bigcalmI am a banana19:07
MartijnVdSbigcalm: if it's yellow, go see a doctor19:07
czajkowskipenguin42: bought a purse as mine broke yesterday to match a bag that AlanBell has for me19:10
czajkowskimostly my bf did the shopping for work stuff19:10
czajkowskibut nice day out in westfield and we got champagne and strawberries19:11
* AlanBell has got czajkowski a bag???19:12
czajkowskiaye in the suitcase19:12
czajkowskibut tis ok will be moving that soon!19:12
AlanBelloh, right :)19:12
ali1234mpeg2 ts demuxer is broken in oneiric19:29
ali1234so i can't play mythtv recordings19:29
ali1234well not with the default movie player anyway19:29
zleapcan someone help me finda guide to help me fix messed up packages please20:46
zleappopey, yousaid there were guides to un screwing up things20:46
popeythe key is not the package name but the error message you get from dpkg20:46
popeythats what I'd google for20:46
popeyI dont know the answer, I just know the answer is out there20:46
zleapany idea why things get so messed up in the first place20:47
popeyprobably involves massaging some files in /var/lib/dpkg20:47
popeyshit packages from the vendor20:47
popeythey probably have an RPM which they convert with alien and then say "There, I fixed it"20:47
zleapwell i know the lpr package is messed up as i need to create some directories manualy, it tries to do it but fails20:48
zleappopey, yeah they have both rpm and .deb20:48
popeythats not the point, the point is how they make them20:51
ali1234ar -x *.deb20:52
ali1234tar -xf data.tar.gz20:52
ali1234copy out the files you need20:52
zleaph ok20:53
zleapi am not sure hat i ned20:53
ali1234well you start by looking at what is actually in there20:53
zleapi need the ppd file but its saying the driver is missing20:53
zleapso if i can find the file i need i just copy that to the right place20:57
zleapeven though the add printer program asks for a wrapper lpd file20:58
zleapor lpd wrapper20:58
ali1234is anyone else watching the lectures on quantum computing that were linked on slashdot today?20:59
ali1234i just watched the first one, it's so simple21:00
dutchiei watched some david deutsch ones a while back21:02
dutchiehttp://www.quiprocone.org/Protected/DD_lectures.htm # these ones21:03
ali1234oh dear, i crashed the codec installer21:04
ali1234wow super compression21:07
ali1234ok this is a rather different style of introduction21:08
ali1234he's going off about multiverses21:08
ali1234don't like this :)21:09
dutchiemmm, the compression is a bit iffy on those21:10
ali1234i don't like it when things are over explained21:11
ali1234if you understand complex numbers and vectors you'll understand that first video21:13
ali1234if you've ever used quaternions or done stuff with the mandlebrot set, you probably have enough background21:14
popeyali1234: are you in unity right now?21:20
popeyyou were talking about the alt-tab behaviour the other day21:21
popeyI learned a couple of interesting things about it21:21
ali1234it is not like you said21:21
AlanBellit got tweaked21:21
AlanBellit now prioritises the current workspace a bit somehow21:21
popeythats a compiz setting21:21
popeywhich is now on by default I believe21:22
popeyand you can use alt+the_key_above_tab to do the alt-tabbing within an app21:22
ali1234if you just hit alt tab you always go between the last two apps21:22
AlanBellI was trying to explain that last time we discussed it, but it does't restrict to current workspace21:23
ali1234no matter what apps they are21:23
popeyyes, thats the case21:24
popeythey figure you're most likely to go between two apps21:24
popeyit kinda breaks if you have 3 apps open spread over two desktops21:24
ali1234but that's why i don't use alt tab21:24
dutchiethis may be bad considering my current workflow is three apps spread over two workspaces21:33
AlanBellin this website (which isn't counting down to the release) http://www.thisisthecountdown.com/ the body tag has a class "NzcgNmYgNzIgNmMgNjQgMjAgNzMgNzAgNjEgNjMgNjUgMjAgNjEgNjcgNjUgNmUgNjMgNzkgMjAgNmYgNzIgNjc" which I believe to be an encoded message21:36
ali1234baconian cypher perhaps?21:38
AlanBellis a trivial reordering of it21:38
ali1234gNj<capital><lowercase> appears like 4 times21:39
AlanBellthe third line isn't a simple ceasar, the first two lines look like things you have to do to the third one21:39
ali1234hmm there seems to be a letter missing?21:40
AlanBellyes, I would expect a final g21:40
ali1234and the final c should be capital21:40
ali1234or maybe not21:41
AlanBellthere are 3 lower case c, I thought they might be spaces or something21:41
AlanBellor the 2 M in the first line might be21:41
ali1234the class is not used in the style.css of course :)21:45
AlanBelland I don't think it is a google site verification thing either21:46
ali1234perhaps there's no final g because it is intended to be used with split('g')21:52
AlanBellok, that makes sense21:53
pr0ph3thi all22:03
pr0ph3tI think I made a mistake22:03
pr0ph3tI had a driver for my asus laptop in Ubuntu 11.10 and the I did modprobe -r driver.ko22:03
pr0ph3tactually without .ko22:04
pr0ph3thow can I get that driver or module back into place?22:04
pr0ph3tif that is even possible that is22:05
popeymodprobe driver22:05
pr0ph3tthanks popey, do I need to do modprobe at every start?22:06
popeydunno what the driver is or does22:12
dogmatic69_popey: you just have a random list of drivers floating round your head :D22:13
shaunoif you didn't need to load it explicitly before you remove'd it, you shouldn't need to do anything more with it  (eg, whatever conditions caused it to be loaded ont his boot, should be true on the next boot too)22:14

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!