[00:01] misplaced notifications still isn't fixed [00:01] not that i mind [00:05] installing flash through the software centre is "interesting" [00:06] if you search in the dash the first thing it shows is the amd64 metapackage for nspluginwrapper - even if you are on a i386 machine [00:06] so you have to click on the second result [00:06] not that you can tell because they both look identical [00:09] apparently if you pick the second one on amd64 it doesn't work [00:13] 0o [00:13] i assume this should be reported against unity-places-applications? [00:14] ~info vrms [00:14] !info vrms [00:14] vrms (source: vrms): virtual Richard M. Stallman. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.15 (natty), package size 12 kB, installed size 100 kB [00:14] whut? [00:15] you have what installed O_O [00:15] i don't have it installed [00:15] i just saw it while searching for unity-places-applications [00:15] ^_^ [00:15] i see [00:15] which is actually called unity-place-applications [00:15] sounds a little - odd [00:16] well quite [00:16] * daftykins hands out the monacles O_. [00:23] bug 863745 [00:23] Launchpad bug 863745 in unity-lens-applications (Ubuntu) "Searching for "flash" in the "applications for download" section of the dash gives confusing results." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/863745 [00:24] OSs are beginning to look quite confusing without a stock WIMP UI [00:24] "i told you so" [00:24] just looking at some screenshots of Oneiric now [00:24] mmm? [00:25] the whole point of all of these things is supposedly to make them easier to use [00:25] but it just makes them more frustrating [00:25] haha [00:25] indeed [00:25] because it gives all the control to the software [00:25] and the software is usually broken [00:25] i got linked to an amusing article on gnome3 from some intel guy and Linus Torvalds [00:25] so now i can get tripped up by stupid things like this, purely because the information isn't available to me [00:25] from their perspective, rather [00:25] yeah i'm not fond of the way 'computing' is going [00:26] i haven't even really touched ubuntu 11.04 [00:27] this is relevant http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2011/09/meego-and-opensuse-invitation.html [00:27] not that i'm saying you should switch to opensuse [00:27] but the core message is worth repeating [00:32] reading [00:33] the reason this annoys me so much is that yes, you can make an argument that synaptic is confusing for the noobs [00:33] but the replacement is no less confusing, in fact it is worse, because even i can't make sense of it [00:33] because the information just isn't there, whether you can understand it or not [00:34] and this just presents a barrier for people who want to learn [00:34] you can't reason logically abut which icon is more appropriate [00:34] you just have to guess [00:35] absolutely [00:35] those that know, are stumped. so how can 'lesser' users have a chance? all they can hope for is clicking the right combinations of fancy pictures (icons) until something happens [00:35] right [00:36] have faith in the fancy icons [00:36] :) [00:36] that is the very antithesis of what free and open source software is all about [00:36] if i wanted to put my faith in some hidden away system i'd be using apple or microsoft [00:37] i can kind of understand how the desktop environment people (probably the wrong term, there) don't really know where to go from here - that's fair to say isn't it? we've had a lot of similar stuff for a long time [00:37] yes [00:37] but just because something is 20 years old, doesn't mean it's bad [00:37] but yeah right now they're more about user experimentation than user interface design [00:37] sure, from a marketing pov, it is harder to sell [00:38] also here's another thing [00:39] compare that opensuse post to jono's recent post about "getting your apps in ubuntu" [00:39] the opensuse guy is community manager too [00:39] jono's is a lot more diplomatic :) [00:39] but still has a veiled reference to meego in that he mentions "qt and qml" [00:40] I honestly think developer.u.c is a bad joke :/ [00:40] i;ve never seen it before [00:40] that concorde-effected on me [00:40] what exactly do you think is wrong with it? [00:40] what's concorde-effected mean? [00:41] it feels a whole lot like they've decided they need an "ecosystem" to match the ios/android/etc models [00:41] well that's because they have [00:41] and they do [00:41] but you have to remember that that is all they mean by "developer" [00:42] people who make fart apps basically [00:42] the only thing i see wrong with it is the focus on pygtk/quickly - which are just frankly awful tools [00:42] ali1234: it went right over my head [00:42] qt creator is lightyears ahead, and can compete with apple and windows development systems [00:43] and that's the reason the qt and qml reference in jono's post stuck out for me [00:43] i've never heard him push anything but quickly before [00:43] oic it was an abbreviation for .ubuntu.com [00:44] so i don't think it was a coincidence with the meego situation and all [00:45] (if you didn't know, meego was supposed to use qt for app dev, but now it's dead, replaced by tizen, which it seems won't have qt at all) [00:45] oh so they're turning ubuntu into a platform for smartphone-like apps [00:45] ooh-err [00:45] yes [00:46] careful gents, the ship's going down [00:46] have you been living under a rock for the past year? [00:46] it is probably the right direction [00:46] i've been nowhere near Ubuntu in about that long, yes [00:46] it's not just ubuntu [00:46] oh [00:46] meego was entirely about making a platform to shift apps [00:46] oh i see [00:47] except intel and nokia wanted to do it all themselves [00:47] so instead of forking some established distro, they started over from scratch [00:47] you'll have to forgive me, i've read the links but i'm quite slow and have had a few :) [00:47] madness [00:47] then a year later, when they were just about at the point of getting a viable base distro (think ubuntu maverick), nokia decided to go to windows mobile instead [00:47] ali1234, you are using unity? [00:47] and now another 6 months later, intel have quit too [00:47] i'd heard the name in the news but no idea on this background [00:48] hamitron: yes, i've been using it for 6 months now [00:48] k :) [00:48] so what are intel backing? [00:48] is that painful? [00:48] so anyway, now meego has no commercial backers [00:48] hamitron: tizen [00:48] meego was supposedly this open community thing [00:49] I think I may have to use google to know wtf that is [00:49] ;) [00:49] but really it was only ever nokia and intel, and a forum where people could pretend they were involved [00:49] hamitron: if you go to meego.com there is now a link to tizen.com at the top of every page [00:49] it appeared there a couple days ago along with a blog post from intel basically saying "sorry everyone, meego is dead now. thanks for your time, now get out" [00:50] like everything thats ever happened with meego, this all happened without anyone in the community having any idea it was coming [00:50] tizen sounds like a different kind of system [00:50] it isn't, really [00:51] there's only so many ways you can package up linux kernel, glibc, core utils [00:51] didn't meego focus on native apps more? [00:51] the difference with tizen is there will be far less standards involved in implementing "compliance" [00:51] yes, meego was about native apps with qt [00:51] tizen is all html5 apps [00:51] but that doesn't really mean they are not native [00:51] meego was all QML [00:51] QML isn't really very different from HTML5 [00:51] i sure the syntax is different [00:52] but they are both markup languages [00:52] they both use javascript [00:52] and the way they treat objects ont he page is quite similar [00:52] QML certainly is not "native" by any stretch [00:53] HTML5 was probably set to "win" over QML though [00:53] technically QML and Qt are better than html5 [00:53] but html just has way more momentum and support [00:53] yeh [00:56] is tizen meant to be a mobile platform only, or? [00:56] yes [00:56] well depends on your definition of mobile really [00:56] it's for set top boxes, in vehicle displays etc [00:57] anything that could potentially have "apps" installed, but isn't a "real" computer [00:57] meego was never meant for end users [00:57] oh i see [00:57] it was meant to be adapted for and sold with OEM hardware [00:57] for some reason i thought it was going to be a mobile phone OS [00:57] tizen will be no different [00:57] it is going to be a mobile phone OS as well [00:58] tizen sounds promising tbh [00:58] lol [00:58] don't fall for it [00:58] ;) [00:58] meego sounded promising too [00:58] so did maemo [00:58] so did moblin [00:58] all now abandoned [00:58] well, I think this has something going for it [00:58] with the cross platform apps [00:59] and just sounds simple [00:59] i take it you've never tried to use OBS [00:59] simple it is not [00:59] no [00:59] ok :) [00:59] not that the others are any better [00:59] but in the end it's just linux [01:00] I find it oddly entertaining that there's so many contenders for the completely-nonexistant linux-phone market [01:00] once you've built it and installed the packages, there's not much difference between distros [01:00] shauno: you've missed the point [01:00] it's not about selling an operating system [01:00] it's about giving away an operating system that is tied to your app store [01:00] meego was never going to be shipped in a way that could be called "open" [01:01] and saving on writing the OS yourself ;) [01:01] exactly [01:01] OEMs like samsung dream of being able to sell a mobile device tied to an app store and take a cut of every piece of software sold [01:01] they could do that with microsoft, but they are too cheap to split the profits [01:01] they want it all [01:02] linux allows them to build their own half-assed distro and DRM it up, tie it to their app store [01:02] I only see Apple and Google in a position for that atm [01:02] but they are also too cheap to even do that themselves [01:02] and Amazon [01:02] ;/ [01:02] so meego and tizen were invented in order to trick the linux community into making it all for them [01:02] that's pretty much exactly what amazon just did with the kindle fire. it's the most sewn-shut android going, and people are going nuts for it [01:03] with the offer that "you'll get a real open linux smartphone if you help us" [01:03] "not like that android where you have no say over the governance" [01:03] the kindle fire would interest me, if I knew it was going to have a longer life than the current android devices [01:03] except it didn't work out like that [01:03] it worked out exactly as open as android except more buggy and with no devices [01:03] i'm waiting for my HP Touchpad to get android :) [01:04] but hey, when android was only 1.5 years old it sucked too [01:04] daftykins, fun yes, but I just want something that is "normal" and works [01:04] ;) [01:04] if they keep starting over every 1.5 years they'll never get past the suckage [01:04] unless they base off another distro, like canonical wisely chose to [01:04] is there any more news on webOS? [01:04] webos supposedly to be sold to amazon? [01:05] daftykins: some people are working on a touchpad bootloader in #msm-bootloader [01:05] hamitron: why won't that work 0o [01:05] if that happens, that answers my question on how long amazon will support the fire :/ [01:06] amazon will support it as long as people keep buying stuff with it [01:06] ali1234: neat, the cyanogenmod team are doing well [01:06] daftykins, by "just works", I mean with no hassle, fully supported [01:06] hamitron: so you want to be locked into a content provider? [01:06] yes [01:06] daftykins: the htclinux people too [01:06] daftykins, only on that 1 device [01:06] ;) [01:07] ah i was not aware of htc linux [01:07] ff 7.0.1 already 0o [01:07] who broke what... [01:07] they do more crazy stuff than cyanogen... they port android to windows mobile phones :) [01:07] and now the touchpad [01:07] ah yes they made HaRET [01:07] i've used that on my HTC Touch Diamond to boot android [01:07] anyway i am confident it will happen... plenty of smart people are working on it [01:07] useless on a phone with 192MB RAM though [01:08] http://www.boffer.co.uk/ [01:08] i have a phone with 64mb that runs android 1.6 [01:08] tempted [01:08] :/ [01:08] or 1.5... or was it 1.4? [01:08] anyway it's useless [01:08] noooo donot buy those cheapass tablets [01:08] indeed [01:08] "N700" lol [01:09] ali1234, I won't.... it turns out I am cheaper than even that tablet ;) [01:09] wasn't that an ancient nokia? [01:09] hamitron: you missed the touchpads then? [01:09] you're thinking of the N770... and i think that's the idea :) [01:09] daftykins, too expensive [01:09] that was the first maemo device [01:09] even during the firesale? [01:09] almost everyone missed them [01:10] by the time the touchpad is running android in a useful way, android will have greater requirements imo [01:10] even the mobile analysts i know failed to purchase them [01:10] ah i got 2 as i was in the US at the time [01:10] and they know everything that's going to happen 2 weeks in advance [01:11] a mate offered me one for £90 he'd got [01:11] but i decided I wouldn't use it [01:11] you probably wouldn't [01:11] yeh [01:11] :) [01:11] i don't use any of the mobile stuffi have [01:11] me neither [01:12] i've used it for google reader on the toilet so far [01:12] think i'll have more use once android's on [01:12] I'd rather buy a few books on stuff I want to learn [01:12] as i could do something with XBMC [01:13] and as for how the computing market is going.... not interested [01:13] I like a traditional upgradeable PC [01:13] heh i don't get companies releasing those all-in-ones now [01:14] well, I think tablets will take over, or something like them [01:14] for the common folk, yeah [01:14] and as that happens, I won't be so interested [01:14] yep [01:14] saw so many on boat trips and airports recently [01:14] there will still be people like us ofc [01:14] :) [01:14] i think it's the touch manipulation, it really appeals to the simpler folk [01:15] deffo [01:15] though, as i was teaching recently, they're definitely getting worse [01:15] what are? [01:15] youngsters [01:15] tabets won't takeover, that is silly [01:15] how you mean? [01:15] "worse" [01:16] like was said the other day, do you think people will run autocad on a tablet? maya? avid? [01:16] ali1234, the average user doesn't load autocad [01:16] they do their social networking, general arsing around in browsers - but basically consider OSs and anything lower level to be pixie dust and magic [01:16] they load facebook [01:16] ;/ [01:16] i know this [01:16] computers existed before facebook [01:16] and they will continue to exist [01:16] thus, kids are getting worse [01:16] you can still buy a typewriter if you want to! [01:17] i'm on a heavily modded one right now! [01:17] computers wern't mass market until about ... 1995 [01:17] quad ink ribbons [01:17] they will exist, sure.... but the PC in the home like now, will die away [01:17] <3 [01:17] yes, the entertainment PC will die [01:17] even the PC to do basic work [01:18] but it was never a particularly good solution anyway [01:18] most people don't want a PC [01:18] word processing and stuff [01:18] word processing on a tablet... no [01:18] yes [01:18] ipad can't even print [01:18] think it can now [01:18] these devices are not meant for creation [01:18] except creating apps [01:18] from which the OEMs can take a cut [01:19] I think tablets will evolve [01:19] indeed, amazon kinda has it right with the fire being about consumption [01:19] they're not even for that [01:19] they are devices for consumption only [01:19] though i'm a tad confused who wants to watch TV+film on a small screen on the go [01:19] consuming bandwidth, media, apps, anything that can be charged for [01:19] also, when the demo guy said they can resume what they're watching on the big screen - what device do they mean? [01:19] amazon is spot on with the fire [01:20] the question is whether they have the technical ability to support an android device [01:20] kindle software is kind of flaky... [01:20] daftykins: shifting media between screens is something meego was supposed to do [01:20] I still think the average business will be happy to replace PC with more feature full tablet/small devices [01:20] oh so just HDMI output? [01:20] except it never worked because about the only thing they didn't put in the compliance spec was what codecs a meego device should support [01:21] daftykins: no, the cloud knows where you were in the video and knows how to resume on another device [01:21] it was even demoed at some meego conference [01:21] oh yeah [01:21] but it was doomed because of codec issues [01:21] it would only have worked if all your media was ogg with no drm [01:21] but right now when amazon refer to it [01:21] otherwise, meego probably wouldn't have been able to play it [01:21] what's going to be the device under the TV? [01:22] well the kindle already does it with books [01:22] the device under the TV will be a set top box [01:22] daftykins, it won't need to be under the tv, it will probably comunicate wirelessly [01:22] ;) [01:22] like your PVR, except with internet, basically [01:22] oh a WiDi thing [01:22] but that's intel D: [01:22] or rather like an average person's PVR [01:22] ^_^ [01:23] ah [01:23] wireless or not is irrelevant [01:23] what is to stop having the PVR in the cloud? [01:23] yeah, was gonna say i think TV recording is an old usage model now [01:23] they want to sell you two boxes, both of which are connected to the cloud (for which you'll have to pay for bandwidth of course) [01:23] hamitron: the PVR *will* be in the cloud [01:23] but you'll still need a box to connect to your TV [01:24] or a TV with such a box integrated [01:24] either way doesn't matter [01:24] dvla? [01:24] erm [01:24] lol [01:24] or whatever it is over the network [01:24] haha [01:24] dlna [01:24] DNLA / DLNA [01:24] that is it [01:24] aka upnp [01:24] which was a nice try [01:25] i used the youtube functionality on a Sharp blu-ray player the other day [01:25] but another "standard" that died due to nobody made their devices compatible [01:25] oh my gawd they're terrible [01:25] why couldn't android offer a new version of it? [01:25] making that stuff actually work across manufacturers was a stated goal of meego [01:25] hamitron: it could. it will. [01:25] hamitron: meego and tizen existed because the OEMs are frankly terrified of google and apple [01:26] yeh [01:26] google already has "google tv" [01:26] google do 1 thing wrong [01:26] heh [01:27] they start too many things, and let some fail so often [01:27] imo the one thing google does wrong is be too honest [01:27] often half assed [01:27] people complain about google and privacy and then they go and use facebook, ilife, and msn live, as if they are any different [01:27] the only difference is google are up front about what they do [01:28] yeh [01:28] the same thing can be said about meego vs android [01:28] meego made a big thing about being more open than android [01:28] * hamitron has been tempted to quit everything and just use his own stuff [01:28] ;) [01:28] but in the end they were exactly the same in terms of openness [01:29] the only difference being google were up front from the start about who was in control [01:29] while meego (ie intel and nokia) just kept making promises and then breaking them [01:29] I know we all use open source stuff here.... but tbh, it often takes someone controlling something, to make it good [01:29] :) [01:29] very much so [01:29] so it has direction [01:29] oh yeah [01:30] a guy from google made a post in response to "openness" complaints [01:30] and someone headed in a direction you like [01:30] * hamitron breaths sigh of relief, not getting flamed [01:30] basically what he said was, the only thing that matters is, is the source available? is it free? and does it compile? [01:30] hmm [01:30] when he made that post, meego still wouldn't compile properly [01:30] haha [01:30] unless you had an account on a machine in the cloud [01:30] a machine running OBS [01:31] I assume he means "free", like how the FSF define it [01:31] and you had to track down a dude on irc and ask him to give you an account [01:31] hamitron: free to be reused, yes [01:31] hang on, i'll find the post [01:34] http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/09/use-a-send-only-email-client-to-increase-productivity-at-work/244207/ [01:34] what a ridiculous idea [01:35] :) [01:35] I automatically ignore all email anyway [01:35] :/ [01:35] :D [01:36] or it must seem that way [01:36] :D [01:36] i keep getting my addy signed up to stuff by a Dennis in america [01:36] :/ [01:36] get some new spam, "god damn it Dennis" [01:36] :D [01:36] I've started to spam spammers [01:36] when i can be bothered [01:36] finally i somehow discovered his actual address and sent him an email, but he was more interested in chasing our family tree [01:37] :\ [01:37] I keep getting mail for someone in the UK. which is odd, since my email address is my full name. and he doesn't have my name. [01:37] :D [01:37] yeah i got email for a couple more d(something)