[00:07] <holstein> jo-erlend: hey
[00:08] <holstein> jack is not running by default
[00:08] <holstein> most applications support jack
[00:08] <holstein> and jack is installed by default
[00:08] <holstein> pa is installed and running for now
[00:08] <holstein> there is talk of pulling it out
[00:09] <jo-erlend> is that because there isn't any user friendly tools to control JACK yet?
[00:09] <holstein> ?
[00:09] <holstein> its not really something that you want running like that
[00:09] <holstein> KXstudio runs jack out of the box
[00:09] <jo-erlend> I'm writing a little pamphlet about the infrastructure in Ubuntu, and one of the things I'm covering is PA vs JACK.
[00:10] <holstein> jo-erlend: right, but they are not really comparable
[00:10] <jo-erlend> I need to study JACK further though. I've only ever used either PA or JACK. I don't think I've ever used a system with both.
[00:10] <holstein> that would be like saying gnome-terminal vs. KDE
[00:10] <holstein> they are really totally different things
[00:10] <jo-erlend> really? Explain that.
[00:11] <holstein> you could say pulse vs. also
[00:11] <holstein> alsa*
[00:11] <holstein> JACK is not really something for the common daily user to play mp3's with
[00:11] <holstein> or run at login with daily use apps
[00:11] <jo-erlend> right, and that's the point.
[00:12] <holstein> pulse *is* for that purpose
[00:12] <holstein> pulse does all kinds of cool things
[00:12] <jo-erlend> yes, I know. But can JACK run along side with PA?
[00:12] <holstein> low latency is not wone of those things though
[00:12] <holstein> jo-erlend: JACK takes over
[00:12] <holstein> you can run pulse with JACK
[00:13] <holstein> there are lots of ways to have JACK running and port pulse audio into it
[00:13] <holstein> you can also just stop JACK, and use pulse
[00:13] <holstein> start JACK, do pro audio
[00:14] <holstein> stop JACK, play mp3's or youtube... flash
[00:14] <jo-erlend> right.
[00:14] <holstein> whatever
[00:14] <holstein> the idea that JACK should become something for the normal desktop user is odd
[00:14] <holstein> its unneccessary
[00:15] <holstein> that user doesnt need the hassle, and wont benefit from the perks
[00:19] <holstein> jo-erlend: depending on the target audience, i say dont mention JACK
[00:19] <jo-erlend> right. So that's a good example of why sometimes, it's good to have concurrent, if not competitive, infrastructures for similar things.
[00:20] <holstein> unless its a user who needs interoperablity, or low latency, they are probably never going to need it
[00:20] <jo-erlend> I want to mention it in order to show why there are different solutions to these types of issues.
[00:27] <jo-erlend> you might say that the goal of the pamphlet is to show users why they are not stupid for not having chosen Ubuntu until now. I want to show them that the reason why Ubuntu is suddenly becoming such a great OS is that we're converging on one infrastructure, but that it's been in the making for a long time. This is to close the gap between those who have been speaking about Linux for decades and those who don't believe them. But th
[00:27] <jo-erlend> en I also need to explain why we still have these kinds of conflicts.
[00:28] <holstein> JACK is a pro audio tool though
[00:28] <jo-erlend> right.
[00:29] <holstein> you can even go find jono bacon and ask him about why he doesnt use JACK and other pro audio tools
[00:29] <jo-erlend> and the alternative would be to either have a less user friendly audio system for casual users, or to have a less powerful system for professional users.
[00:29] <holstein> i think that would go a long way to answering the need for a pamphlet like you are proposing
[00:30] <holstein> jo-erlend: thats not a true statement either though
[00:30] <jo-erlend> well, I'm not only writing about audio. I'm writing about everything from the FSH and XDG BDS to the Desktopcouch.
[00:30] <jo-erlend> holstein, how come?
[00:30] <holstein> JACK is quite powerful in a totally different way
[00:30] <holstein> and if you want to connect different apps together, JACK is quite user friendly
[00:31] <holstein> i just dont even think JACK needs to be mentioned in comparison to pulse
[00:31] <holstein> its more of an added tool
[00:31] <holstein> a totally different thing
[00:31] <holstein> it just happens to need your audio device, and suspends pulse
[00:31] <jo-erlend> will it feel that way if you install a JACK application and you don't get any audio?
[00:32] <holstein> IF you have 2 audio devices? pulse will run on one while JACK uses the other
[00:32] <holstein> jo-erlend: thats the nature of it though
[00:32] <jo-erlend> right. That's what I want to explain.
[00:32] <holstein> and making a 'how to use JACK' page is a pain
[00:32] <holstein> jo-erlend: you cant explain it though
[00:32] <jo-erlend> that's not the goal.
[00:32] <holstein> what kernel are they using?
[00:32] <holstein> what audio device?
[00:32] <holstein> firewire?
[00:32] <jo-erlend> this is not a howto.
[00:32] <jo-erlend> this is not a guide.
[00:33] <holstein> sure... and i think its a great idea
[00:33] <holstein> just think about adding it on like a tool
[00:33] <holstein> such as the gimp or openshot
[00:33] <holstein> JACK is more like that
[00:33] <holstein> its not really a sound server replacement
[00:33] <jo-erlend> I want to explain why GTK isn't necessarily better than Qt or vice versa, but that they suit different needs.
[00:34] <holstein> sure, but i think this is even different than that
[00:34] <jo-erlend> sure. But it is related to it.
[00:34] <holstein> i think this is more like comparing python and qt
[00:35] <holstein> you can compare those
[00:35] <jo-erlend> right. That'll probably need to have a section as well. :)
[00:35] <holstein> but you dont compare them like you would qt and gtk
[00:35] <holstein> its not like you either use pulse or JACK
[00:35] <jo-erlend> oh?
[00:35] <holstein> JACK just suspends pulse because it needs to use the hardware
[00:35] <jo-erlend> why do I need PA if I use JACK?
[00:35] <holstein> i have a firewire device for example
[00:36] <holstein> when i run JACK on it, pulse is still running on the internal card
[00:36] <holstein> its not a replacement for the sound server
[00:36] <jo-erlend> yes, but you don't need PA in order to use JACK.
[00:36] <holstein> it gives you lowlatency access to the device allowing interconnectivity of JACK supported hardware and woftware
[00:36] <holstein> software*
[00:37] <holstein> its not a replacement for the sound server
[00:37] <holstein> it just cant use the card while the sound server is using it
[00:38] <holstein> jo-erlend: qjackctl or jack control is the GUI front ent
[00:38] <holstein> end*
[00:39] <jo-erlend> yes, but can you explain in one sentence why JACK and PA aren't competitors?
[00:40] <holstein> jo-erlend: sure
[00:40] <holstein> its not a replacement for the sound server
[00:41] <holstein> JACK only suspends the sound server because it needs to use the same audio device
[00:41] <jo-erlend> I'm not writing for geeks. "Sound server? This is my desktop, not the internet".
[00:41] <holstein> like when you open the gimp on the screen
[00:41] <holstein> and then you open a web browser
[00:41] <holstein> those are not competing
[00:41] <holstein> they just both use the same screen
[00:41] <holstein> jo-erlend: right, and JACK is geeky
[00:42] <holstein> if you are not writing for geeks, or audio pros, you need not mention JACK
[00:42] <jo-erlend> "Right, some geeks have told me this before, that I don't need the internet to use GMail. I can run it as an app on my desktop".
[00:43] <jo-erlend> no, I do need to mention it, because I want to attact audio pros as well. I just want people to understand why PA is the default and why there are alternatives.
[00:44] <holstein> jo-erlend: sure... but im not sure you are willing to take this in
[00:44] <jo-erlend> because... JACK is an alternative.
[00:44] <holstein> its not a sound server
[00:44] <holstein> not in that sense
[00:44] <holstein> its *not* an alternative
[00:44] <holstein> its a different tool
[00:45] <jo-erlend> hehe, interesting perspective. I never intended to say that a hammer and a saw were equal competitors. I just want to explain why we have both, but in a comprehensible way.
[00:46] <holstein> jo-erlend: right, and you cant
[00:46] <jo-erlend> that sounds like a bet to me. :)
[00:46] <holstein> because you are comparing cutting a board with a saw or a hammer
[00:47] <holstein> JACK is not intended to be a sound server replacement
[00:47] <holstein> jo-erlend: if you want
[00:47] <holstein> go to #ardour
[00:47] <holstein> catch las
[00:47] <holstein> he co-wrote JACK and knows a lot about alsa and pulse
[00:48] <holstein> i dont think thers anything i can say to convince you
[00:48] <jo-erlend> what exactly is it you're trying to convince me of?
[00:49] <holstein> jo-erlend: ?
[00:49] <holstein> that JACK is not a replacement for pulse
[00:50] <holstein> they just both use the audio hardware, so they cant co-exist easily
[00:50] <jo-erlend> what I'm trying to describe, is why we have different types of infrastructures in Ubuntu and why not all of them are in use by default.
[00:51] <holstein> sure
[00:51] <holstein> becuase you dont need lowlatency or the interconnectivity of JACK
[00:51] <holstein> you need the dekstop friendliness of pulse
[00:55] <jo-erlend> right. That's why I came here. I wrote something similar to "While we always want to have a single infrastructure, it is not always useful because people have conflicting goals. Whereas a desktop user wants to have easy access to internal audio and USB speakers, an audio professional wants to route audio precisely between applications. This is why we have PulseAudio installed by default in Ubuntu  and why things like UbuntuStudio
[00:55] <jo-erlend>  wants to use JACK by default". I couldn't say that because I didn't know if UbuntuStudio does.
[00:57] <holstein> jo-erlend: right
[00:57] <holstein> and we dont
[00:57] <holstein> its just there to run as a tool
[00:57] <holstein> but, KXstudio runs JACK like that
[00:57] <holstein> at login
[00:57] <holstein> with mixed results
[00:58] <holstein> not all ubuntustudio users are doing audio either
[01:02] <holstein> jo-erlend: understand?
[01:03] <jo-erlend> yes. Ubuntu Studio is a bad example. :)
[01:03] <holstein> ;)
[01:03] <holstein> to be more precise, JACK is a bad example
[01:03] <holstein> ask las
[01:03] <holstein> it was just not intended to be used like that
[01:04] <jo-erlend> no, I don't think it is, because there are lots of applications that require it.
[01:04] <holstein> as a desktop sound system
[01:04] <holstein> jo-erlend: nothing installed by default in ubuntu requires JACK
[01:04] <holstein> nothing the normal user would ever encounter
[01:05] <holstein> you can use audacity and do lots of pro-ish audio without useing JACK
[01:05] <jo-erlend> for instance, my father is interested in MIDI. He asked me the other day if we have MIDI tools. I told him yes. He haven't started to explore them yet. When he does, I'm quite certain that I'll have to explain these things and it won't exactly be easy.
[01:05] <holstein> alsa midi is not all that bad
[01:06] <holstein> but, its got a learning curve like anthing else
[01:06] <holstein> anything*
[01:06] <jo-erlend> how many applications in the USC require JACK for MIDI?
[01:06] <holstein> require?
[01:06] <holstein> jack uses alsa midi, so technically none
[01:06] <holstein> but, you need JACK to do the audio for some of them
[01:07] <jo-erlend> let me put it another way... How many applications in USC will not give you audio out of the box?
[01:07] <holstein> and you want JACK running for that purpose
[01:07] <holstein> jo-erlend: USC = ubuntustudio?
[01:07] <jo-erlend> ubuntu software center.
[01:07] <holstein> oh... not sure
[01:07] <jo-erlend> let me give you a very precise answer... Lots.
[01:07] <holstein> less all the time
[01:07] <holstein> nah
[01:08] <holstein> its not lots
[01:08] <jo-erlend> In Oneiric, I've explored 5-6 MIDI applications or so. None of them has produced any audio. I haven't installed JACK.
[01:08] <holstein> they expect JACK like ardour
[01:08] <jo-erlend> perhaps I've only been very unlucky.
[01:08] <holstein> you you *can* use ardour with out JACK tough
[01:08] <holstein> though*
[01:09] <holstein> jo-erlend: they dont produce audio though
[01:09] <holstein> that has tnnothing to do with JACK
[01:09] <jo-erlend> hehe...
[01:09] <holstein> those are sequencers
[01:09] <holstein> MIDI doesnt make sound
[01:09] <holstein> MID is just a message
[01:09] <holstein> note on, note off
[01:09] <holstein> that triggers a sound module
[01:09] <jo-erlend> I think most Windows users will  be used to audio applications producing sound though.
[01:09] <holstein> the module can be hardware or software
[01:10] <holstein> jo-erlend: right, this is a change from coming from windows
[01:10] <jo-erlend> but I should not explain it?
[01:10] <holstein> typical 'all in one box' setups
[01:10] <holstein> jo-erlend: explain what?
[01:10] <holstein> it really depends on the target audience
[01:11] <jo-erlend> well, as I said, I want to explain why Ubuntu is different from Windows. You said I should just ignore JACK and all that.
[01:11] <holstein> i would
[01:12] <jo-erlend> because we don't _have_ one infrastructure and we probably never will and there are good reasons for it, which I would like to explain in a comprehensible manner.
[01:12] <holstein> its not something the normal desktop user is going to be aware of
[01:12] <jo-erlend> because people who use OS X and Windows are not interested in music?
[01:12] <holstein> jo-erlend: i mean, i think youa re quite an advanced user, and you are wondering why the MIDI sequencers dont make sound
[01:13] <holstein> this is not a JACK issue
[01:13] <holstein> nor a windows vs mac vs linux issue
[01:13] <jo-erlend> no, I don't. It's because I haven't got JACK installed.
[01:13] <jo-erlend> at least, that's what the applications themselves claim.
[01:13] <holstein> jo-erlend: right, but that doesnt have anything to do with JACK
[01:13] <holstein> they *dont* make sound
[01:13] <holstein> tey are not supposed to
[01:13] <holstein> they trigger sounds
[01:14] <jo-erlend> hehe
[01:14] <holstein> all im saying is, if you *dont* know what JACK is, theres no need to try and explain it
[01:14] <jo-erlend> yes, because people who don't know what JACK is, shouldn't be using Ubuntu in the first place?
[01:15] <holstein> nah... lost of folks use ubuntu without ever using JACK
[01:15] <holstein> lots of folks do pro podcasts with linux *without* using JACK
[01:16] <holstein> you dont *have* to use JACK at all
[01:16] <holstein> but, at first glance its daunting, and odd
[01:16] <holstein> and im afraid thats where you are with it
[01:16] <holstein> at first glance
[01:16] <holstein> which is fine
[01:16] <jo-erlend> and that's why it should not be explained?
[01:16] <holstein> jo-erlend: you dant explain it
[01:17] <holstein> not in a pamphlet like that
[01:17] <holstein> jo-erlend: what are you going to say about GCC in that pmaphoet?
[01:17] <holstein> or python?
[01:17] <holstein> its too specialized
[01:17] <holstein> its not necessary to bother the new user with
[01:17] <jo-erlend> then we should get ridd of all the applications that depend on JACK. Perhaps we should move those types of applications out of official Ubuntu repositories?
[01:17] <holstein> the normal desktop user
[01:17] <holstein> jo-erlend: ?
[01:18] <holstein> we use them quite a bit
[01:18] <jo-erlend> the current situation is that if you want a midi sequencer, the chance is that it'll load and run perfectly and you won't be able to get any sound from it.
[01:18] <holstein> jo-erlend: right, but thats a feature, not a bug
[01:18] <holstein> thats what a sequencer does
[01:19] <jo-erlend> and that's why we should ignore those features?
[01:19] <holstein> j	we dont
[01:19] <holstein> theres some app like that
[01:19] <holstein> its just not very good
[01:19] <jo-erlend> but you are telling me not to tell people that most of the music software will not work.
[01:19] <holstein> its like something youd see on windows
[01:19] <holstein> all in one like that
[01:19] <holstein> we have tools
[01:19] <holstein> JACK
[01:19] <holstein> sequencers
[01:20] <jo-erlend> ok. I need to eat.
[01:20] <holstein> sound modules
[01:20] <holstein> more like what you would find in a pro studio
[01:20] <holstein> jo-erlend: we struggle with documentation for UbuntuStudio
[01:20] <holstein> most things are just too specialized
[01:20] <holstein> like sequencers
[01:21] <holstein> to suggest that a sequencer should make sound is to miss the point
[01:21] <holstein> we have the freedome to use whatever sequencer with whatever sound modules we want
[01:21] <jo-erlend> yes, there should be no explanation.
[01:21] <jo-erlend> food.
[01:21] <holstein> with JACK, that can be harware or software
[01:22] <holstein> jo-erlend: if you want a sentence that explains JACK for the pamphlet, i would ask las
[01:22] <holstein> or i could put something together
[01:22] <holstein> or ScottL , ScottL = the ubuntustudio team lead
[01:26] <holstein> jo-erlend: i know you are out for food... but
[01:27] <holstein> the last think i wanted to do was be abrasive... however, i feel it is a misrepresentation to say JACK is something to be used like pulse
[01:28] <holstein> its got a wicked learning curve
[07:31] <gsl> HI
[07:33] <gsl> there is a problem
[07:38] <gsl> my config is: sw - ubuntustudio 11.04_i386, hw - Creative X-FI Platinum
[07:39] <gsl> X-FI has a one input multifunctional port   Line-in/Digital-IO
[07:39] <gsl> i configure it as Line-in
[07:43] <gsl> connect the instrument into Line. I hear the sound but i cannot capture it.
[07:44] <gsl> p.s.: I remove pulseaudio from system, because it slow in lmms. I use jackd for most my needs.
[07:45] <gsl> Somebody can help me with capturing?
[07:45] <gsl> Thanks in advance!
[13:18] <Lord_Kakturion> hi all
[13:53] <holstein> good day Lord_Kakturion :)
[14:05] <Lord_Kakturion> #ubuntu-pl
[14:05] <Lord_Kakturion> tfu
[14:05] <Lord_Kakturion> forgot about /join :D
[21:04]  * Lord_Kakturion just finished installing ubuntu studio
[21:04] <Lord_Kakturion> it starts really fast :)