[09:16] <_mup_> Bug #865163 was filed: default-series option has surprising behaviour <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/865163 >
[12:46] <niemeyer> Good mornings!
[12:56] <rogpeppe> niemeyer: hiya!
[13:00] <fwereade> heya niemeyer
[13:02] <niemeyer> Hey folks!
[13:03]  * niemeyer grabs coffee before engaging into juju awesomeness
[13:17] <hazmat> g'morning
[13:23] <niemeyer> hazmat: Yo
[13:32] <hazmat> niemeyer, greeting
[13:33] <niemeyer> hazmat: Alan seemed pleasantly surprised with juju
[13:34] <hazmat> niemeyer, awesome!
[13:34] <hazmat> niemeyer,  they've been setting up a saas system with plone.. ploud.. i'm glad you guys had a chance to talk
[13:35] <niemeyer> hazmat: Spent good part of Saturday's afternoon hacking a django "platform" charm with Sidnei.. very cool stuff
[13:35] <hazmat> niemeyer, sweet!
[13:35] <niemeyer> hazmat: and he was around for part of it
[13:35] <hazmat> niemeyer, did you guys use bash? or python?
[13:36] <niemeyer> hazmat: Bash for the low level charm integration.. but it's a surprisingly small amount of code
[13:36] <niemeyer> hazmat: Checks the branch out from Launchpad, and puts it live
[13:36] <hazmat> niemeyer, indeed, checking out revision control is the only main thing i used python for
[13:36] <hazmat> on a wsgi charm
[13:37] <hazmat> niemeyer, virtualenv for requirements.. but figuring out the db dependency from config was a little odd
[13:37] <hazmat> made me want runtime dependency declarations
[13:37] <niemeyer> hazmat: Ah, interesting.. we didn't go so far
[13:38] <niemeyer> hazmat: We were thinking about a python-level or app-level hook for installing dependencies
[13:38] <hazmat> niemeyer, yeah.. as it is right now i've got optional relations for lots of things, and i just populate a conf file with the properties for the app
[13:38] <niemeyer> hazmat: Ah, sweet!
[13:38] <hazmat> using gunicorn for serving up the app ( easy multi-process using a pre-fork model)
[13:38] <niemeyer> hazmat: We were going in the direction of an nginx server
[13:40] <hazmat> niemeyer, nginx is a good front end, but i still expect that to be a separate unit.. within a unit the socket bind, fork, saves an extra hop
[13:40] <niemeyer> hazmat: Hadn't heard of gunicorn before
[13:40] <hazmat> which is needed for the frontend anyways
[13:41] <hazmat> niemeyer, its a nice front end to wsgi apps supports several options.. gevent, pre-fork workers, etc.
[13:41] <niemeyer> hazmat: Nice, we should talk to sidnei about this
[13:44] <hazmat> niemeyer, sounds good
[14:22] <hazmat> niemeyer, just a heads up... i'm going to be working on solving transient zk disconnect issues and upstartifying things this week
[14:23] <niemeyer> hazmat: Good timing.. on a call with fwereade and we were just talking about that :-)
[14:23] <hazmat> fwereade, niemeyer, cool, how's the remote repo working coming?
[14:24] <niemeyer> hazmat: Wanna join?
[14:24] <hazmat> niemeyer, definitely
[14:24] <niemeyer> hazmat: sent
[14:58] <robbiew> niemeyer: fyi, I updated the call to use my conference number
[14:58] <robbiew> 1075684916
[15:01] <niemeyer> robbiew: Joining
[16:05] <niemeyer> Lunch time!
[16:05] <niemeyer> brb
[16:07] <robbiew> FYI -> https://juju.ubuntu.com/Testing
[16:07] <robbiew> :)
[16:11] <SpamapS> cool
[16:32] <SpamapS> http://summit.openstack.org/sessions/view/103
[16:32] <SpamapS> lol.. look at the example they use for server templates. ;)
[16:32] <SpamapS> "A server template could be used, for example, to build a server containing a pre-installed WordPress system and database"
[16:50] <niemeyer> robbiew: Wow!
[16:50] <niemeyer> robbiew: Integrates very neatly
[16:51]  * robbiew is so happy IS added the rawhtml option to our wiki ;)
[16:53] <niemeyer> robbiew: +1 :)
[16:53] <m_3> robbiew: rawhtml... yay
[17:00]  * rogpeppe is off. see ya tomorrow.
[17:09] <robbiew> rogpeppe: cya
[17:16] <niemeyer> rogpeppe: Cheers! On a call now, but will review your branches before you're back :)
[17:35] <_mup_> Bug #865550 was filed: Provide automation for including apparmor profiles in charms <juju:New> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/865550 >
[18:02] <niemeyer> Four hours of meetings should be good enough for a Monday
[18:02]  * niemeyer tries to actually review some code now
[19:15] <_mup_> juju/unit-info-cli r423 committed by kapil.thangavelu@canonical.com
[19:15] <_mup_> copy host resolv.conf to container before attempting any resolutions, in the customize chroot, this was being masked by the local package cache
[19:18]  * hazmat heads out to doctor appt, bbiab
[19:26] <niemeyer> hazmat: Good luck there! :)
[19:26] <niemeyer> hazmat: When you're back, would like to ping you on a minor
[19:32] <fwereade> niemeyer: ping
[19:32] <niemeyer> fwereade: Yo
[19:32] <fwereade> thanks for the review
[19:32] <fwereade> niemeyer: one I'm about to address and merge, one addressed in a followup, one I intend to address in a followup
[19:33] <niemeyer> fwereade: Cool
[19:33] <niemeyer> fwereade: Branches seem to be missing pre-reqs, btw
[19:33] <fwereade> really? crap, let me check
[19:33] <niemeyer> fwereade: The require-default-series one is.. hmm.. interesting
[19:33] <niemeyer> fwereade: Yeah, it's fine as I can imagine what the stack is
[19:34] <niemeyer> fwereade: But it's good to have that in place in general
[19:34] <fwereade> niemeyer: consider that one speculative, I wasn't sure you'd like it but itseemed better to implement while you were away than to moon around wondering
[19:34] <fwereade> niemeyer: definitely
[19:35] <niemeyer> fwereade: It's good speculation.. it seemed wrong and I was tempted to ask for more information
[19:35] <fwereade> niemeyer: yeah, looks like I've missed at least one :( sorry
[19:35] <niemeyer> fwereade: But pondering on the problem for a while, you have a point
[19:35] <fwereade> niemeyer: it's clint's point really :)
[19:36] <niemeyer> fwereade: _Today_, detecting the revision will yield surprising results more often than it will be useful
[19:36] <niemeyer> fwereade: Well, SpamapS has a point then :-)
[19:36] <fwereade> niemeyer: detecting the series, right?
[19:37] <niemeyer> fwereade: Yeah, sorry
[19:37] <niemeyer> fwereade: Detecting is really the long term solution
[19:37] <niemeyer> fwereade: But, there are two points that make it suboptimal:
[19:37] <niemeyer> 1) There's a single series that work today
[19:38] <niemeyer> 2) We do auto-updating of the environment config, which can yield surprising results
[19:39] <fwereade> niemeyer: 3) we want people to be able to run juju from non-ubuntu systems
[19:40] <fwereade> niemeyer: I do feel it would be nice to be smarter about it, but I think I've convinced myself at least that Least Surprise is the right principle to follow at this point
[19:40] <fwereade> niemeyer: the fact that auto-updating can *still* break this solution is (I think) a point against auto-updating, rather than against the solution
[19:41] <niemeyer> fwereade: 3) is kind of irrelevant in this specific case
[19:42] <fwereade> niemeyer: feels somewhat relevant to the long-term case, but I don't really feel that specific point is going to be a fruitful avenue of discussion right now ;)
[19:42] <niemeyer> fwereade: The fact someone wants to be able to work in environment B isn't good reasoning for not doing something in environment A which is actually more common right now
[19:43] <fwereade> niemeyer: granted
[19:43] <niemeyer> fwereade: Yeah, least surprise is good too
[19:43] <niemeyer> fwereade: and it's actually exactly what we were going at with the original approach, though
[19:44] <niemeyer> fwereade: If you're siting on a machine running Natty, doing things remotely with Natty is expected
[19:44] <niemeyer> fwereade: The problem, and the reason why it has my sympathy, are points 1) and 2) above
[19:44] <niemeyer> fwereade: For 1), natty doesn't exist
[19:44] <niemeyer> (for juju)
[19:44] <fwereade> niemeyer: well, indeed :)
[19:45] <niemeyer> fwereade: re. 2), auto-updating means we'd get different behavior on an _existing_ environment post-bootstrap
[19:45] <niemeyer> fwereade: Which is quite awkward
[19:45] <fwereade> niemeyer: yep
[19:47] <niemeyer> fwereade: I'm happy to move forward with the simplistic way for now..
[19:47] <niemeyer> fwereade: We'll have to change this once there are other releases, but we have some time to think
[19:47] <niemeyer> fwereade: I'll just check it up with hazmat
[19:47] <fwereade> niemeyer: cool -- I agree it's not perfect, but it feels like a sensible short-term solution
[19:48] <niemeyer> fwereade: +1
[19:48] <niemeyer> fwereade: Awesome.. just reviewing docs, but I think we're settled as far as our conversation goes
[19:48] <niemeyer> fwereade: We need the auto-revision bumping now, and the fake testing server
[19:49] <niemeyer> fwereade: Probably in that order, so that we can get things rolling into the Ubuntu front while we sort out the testing and all
[19:49] <niemeyer> fwereade: WDYT?
[19:53] <fwereade> yep, sounds good to me
[19:55] <fwereade> niemeyer, in case you didn't see, sounds good to me
[19:55] <niemeyer> fwereade: Cool!
[19:55] <niemeyer> fwereade: Thanks for checking out
[19:56] <niemeyer> fwereade: I'll finish reviewing the doc branch, but we're in sync I think
[19:56] <fwereade> niemeyer: cool
[19:56] <fwereade> niemeyer: there will be another doc tweak at some stage, to fix up the draft I mention
[19:56] <fwereade> niemeyer: but, well, it is a draft :)
[19:57] <niemeyer> fwereade: Yeah, cool :-)
[20:16] <Aram> hello.
[20:33] <niemeyer> Aram: Hey!
[20:50] <niemeyer> hazmat: Can you please check out this when you have a moment: https://code.launchpad.net/~fwereade/juju/require-default-series/+merge/77878
[20:50] <niemeyer> I'm going to step out for some exercising and be back later today
[20:53] <fwereade> niemeyer: (I've assumed it was; the other place is the new-user tutorial, where every extra character counts, IMO)
[20:59] <fwereade> niemeyer: (and now I've convinced myself I'm wrong: the full charm url will show up in status, and it'll be clearer that the two places reference the same thing if they look like the same thing)
[22:13]  * hazmat checks out branch
[23:28] <niemeyer> fwereade: I'm here, but you're probably not.. :p
[23:33] <SpamapS> niemeyer: so, how is the eureka push going?
[23:33] <SpamapS> I've been distracted with other Ubuntu stuff all day
[23:34] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Very well.. the only critical bit is the client-side store work
[23:34] <niemeyer> SpamapS: fwereade's branches are in pretty good shape, though.. we'll probably have everything in by tomorrow, or wednesday the latest
[23:35] <niemeyer> SpamapS: fwereade will then work on a fake server the rest of the week so we can be sure that the store support _actually_ works
[23:35] <niemeyer> SpamapS: and then finish the real store in the next couple of weeks
[23:36] <SpamapS> We can always release an updated client if the API has to change
[23:37] <niemeyer> SpamapS: That's cool, but at least the that work we're finishing tomorrow/wednesday should really be in
[23:38] <niemeyer> Aram: ping
[23:39] <Aram> niemeyer: pong.
[23:39] <niemeyer> Aram: Hey!
[23:40] <SpamapS> niemeyer: indeed, its a bit more of an abuse of the process to SRU a whole new feature in than it is to just SRU a new API version in. :)
[23:40] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Yeah, and also because my _hope_ is that we'll have zero incompatible changes in the 11.10=>12.04 time frame
[23:41] <SpamapS> +1 from me on that
[23:41] <niemeyer> SpamapS: So would really like to have the store work now, so that if we have to SRU changes they use the same user interface
[23:42] <SpamapS> would go a long way to building up user support if they're able to smoothly transition to the PPA and/or 12.04 without having to do anything to their charms/running envs/etc.
[23:42] <niemeyer> SpamapS: Exactly
[23:42] <niemeyer> SpamapS: That's my hope really
[23:42] <SpamapS> Seems like the last of the big structural local storage changes are in with juju-origin and the local charm repository organization.
[23:43] <niemeyer> SpamapS: juju-origin is kind of minor in that regard
[23:43] <SpamapS> I do think we'll have to see some backflips in code as the ZK topology changes..
[23:43] <niemeyer> SpamapS: the charm url user interface is the big deal
[23:43] <niemeyer> hazmat: ping
[23:44] <niemeyer> SpamapS: another bit we have to sort out is being able to tag formulas as incompatible with a given revision in a nice way
[23:45] <niemeyer> SpamapS: But that seems fine for an SRU
[23:45] <SpamapS> yeah
[23:45] <SpamapS> thats another one where it fits nicely the SRU desire to make sure interoperability with remote services is maintained
[23:46] <niemeyer> Right
[23:46] <hazmat> niemeyer, pong
[23:47] <niemeyer> hazmat: Yo!
[23:48] <niemeyer> hazmat: How're things going there?  Still churning, or more like heading to a beer? :)
[23:48] <hazmat> niemeyer, really hoping to have the unit get cli and addresses in relations by default in for oneiric
[23:48] <niemeyer> hazmat: Neat
[23:48] <hazmat> niemeyer, both in the queue
[23:48] <niemeyer> hazmat: I'll check that out today still
[23:48] <SpamapS> hazmat: that would be *saweet*
[23:48] <niemeyer> hazmat: Awesome
[23:49] <hazmat> niemeyer, i'm still running into occasional issues with the local provider stuff, think it might be because i switch local networks so often
[23:49] <niemeyer> hazmat: Hmm
[23:49] <hazmat> not sure, still also seeing an occasional lxc problem when i try to ssh into a machine
[23:49] <hazmat> i committed a fix for the network issue, it always manifests as xmlrpc.launchpad.net temp failure in resolution
[23:49] <SpamapS> I'll gladly do a mass bug file/fix in the charm repo once that is done, as that gives us much better reliability in non-ec2 environments
[23:49] <hazmat> not sure if its a good fix though
[23:50] <hazmat> works for me atm though
[23:50] <hazmat> pty allocation error re lxc problem
[23:50] <hazmat> only a reboot fixes it once it shows up
[23:50] <hazmat> niemeyer, having a look over fwereade's branches atm, still churning
[23:50] <hazmat> and that's not mutually exclusive to a beer ;-)
[23:50] <hazmat> tdd ftw ;-)
[23:51] <hazmat> saw the new db pkg for go
[23:51] <hazmat> elmo was at the surge conference saw him the last day we chatted a bit
[23:51] <niemeyer> hazmat: :-)
[23:52] <niemeyer> hazmat: On that last branch, check-latest-formulas, I think we need something like
[23:52] <niemeyer>  /charm-info?charms=<urls>
[23:52] <niemeyer> So that we can get metadata + bundle-sha256 at once
[23:52] <niemeyer> for all the charms
[23:53] <hazmat> niemeyer, sounds good, as we learned rest purisms fails for efficiency
[23:53] <niemeyer> Yeah
[23:53] <niemeyer> It feels bad to do _3_ requests per charm download