/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/10/04/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

=== doko__ is now known as doko
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
=== granjero is now known as granjero-afk
=== bulldog98_ is now known as bulldog98
hallyn_\o/16:02
lynxmanhallyn_: hey :)16:03
hallyn_hm, that looks too enthusiastic16:03
hallyn_\-o16:03
lynxmanhallyn_: try a more subdued approach16:03
jamespageo/16:03
hallyn_yeah.  i'm not at some fancy conference where i can guzzle coffeee all day to keep me enthuzed :)16:03
jamespagehello fellow ubuntu-server'ers16:03
lynxmanjamespage! \o/16:04
hallyn_that's espresso talking16:04
lynxmanhallyn_: I'm out of Nespresso capsules, crisis mode here16:04
jamespagewhos in the seat this week?16:04
jamespageutlemming - did you do last week?16:04
hallyn_well i think we're hoping spamaps will be here16:05
jamespageSpamapS - around?16:05
hallyn_else i'll do it.  (or we can take this chance to fold in Ursinha)16:06
m_3I think he's working on hw in Boston16:06
hallyn_excuses16:06
utlemmingI did...I thought I updated the wiki16:06
lynxmanUrsinha: time to shine? :)16:06
hallyn_utlemming: you didnt' update the list of people at the top16:06
hallyn_(moving yourself to the back)16:06
hallyn_and no. smoser was teh last to update16:07
* utlemming is embarrassed for dropping the ball16:07
jamespagehttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/2011092716:07
jamespagehey - you filed minutes16:07
hallyn_it's a lot of steps...16:07
hallyn_ok, on emore minute for Ursinha or SpamapS to speak up16:08
hallyn_Daviey: who else do we need to fold in btw?16:08
DavieyI am here, i suspect the other ODS attendees will not be.16:08
DavieyThe internet is awful.16:08
hallyn_sigh16:09
hallyn_should we postponed?16:09
DavieyI think we should do a run regardless, even if it's not fully addressed.16:09
hallyn_#startmeeting16:09
meetingology`Meeting started Tue Oct  4 16:09:45 2011 UTC.  The chair is hallyn_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.16:09
meetingology`Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired16:09
hallyn_#topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting16:09
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
hallyn_ACTION: hggdh and SpamapS to discuss SRU verification work for bug 750371 at next meeting or before16:10
ubottuLaunchpad bug 750371 in squid (Ubuntu Maverick) "squid causing /var to stay busy during shutdown" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/75037116:10
hallyn_hggdh: are you around?16:10
hggdhyes16:10
hallyn_did  y'all talk?16:10
hggdhI am, right now, looking at it; no, I did not talk with SpamapS yet16:10
hallyn_punt for next week?16:11
hggdhpinged him, but he seems unavailable16:11
hallyn_ok, thx16:11
hggdhI intend to test it as soon as I have my KVM as I want16:11
hggdhwhich should happen in the next 30 min16:11
hallyn_#action hggdh and SpamapS to discuss SRU verification work for bug 750371 at next meeting or before (hggdh to test)16:11
meetingology`ACTION: hggdh and SpamapS to discuss SRU verification work for bug 750371 at next meeting or before (hggdh to test)16:11
ubottuLaunchpad bug 750371 in squid (Ubuntu Maverick) "squid causing /var to stay busy during shutdown" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/75037116:11
hallyn_ACTION: jamespage to look at bug 65553316:12
ubottuLaunchpad bug 655533 in likewise-open (Ubuntu Natty) "[master] package likewise-open 5.4.0.42111-2ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/65553316:12
jamespagedone - fixed16:12
hallyn_excellent!  thanks16:12
jamespagein oneiric anyways16:12
hallyn_: Daviey, smoser, hallyn to follow up on bug 80149416:12
ubottuLaunchpad bug 801494 in Ubuntu "Multi part LVM layout: system fails to boot due to missing volumes" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/80149416:12
hallyn_hmmmmmm16:12
jamespageI've been debugging that with jhunt today16:12
DavieyThat is blocked on seeing if it is a duplicate of the udev race, no?16:12
jamespageDaviey: pretty sure it is  - lemme catchup with jhunt again - in all likelyhood it is a dupe16:14
hallyn_jamespage: any progress not reflected in the bugs or email yet?16:14
jamespagehallyn_: action me to follow up with jhunt16:15
jamespagebut no progress - jhunt has had remote access to the system16:15
jamespageits reproducable but no fix yet16:15
hallyn_#action jamespage to follow up with jhunt on udev/lvm bugs including 80149416:15
meetingology`ACTION: jamespage to follow up with jhunt on udev/lvm bugs including 80149416:15
hallyn_ACTION: Deadline for ODS is today16:16
hallyn_nothing to do there :)16:16
jamespage\o/16:16
hallyn_ACTION: smoser, utlemming and smb to follow up on Bug 85405016:16
ubottuLaunchpad bug 854050 in linux (Ubuntu) "BUG at /build/buildd/linux-2.6.38/mm/swapfile.c:255" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/85405016:16
hallyn_utlemming: ?16:16
hallyn_sounds from the bug report like it is solved?16:17
utlemmingI'm still testing that. New AMI's are being spun for testing.16:17
utlemmingmark that for follow-up next week16:18
hallyn_ok16:18
hallyn_#action smoser, utlemming and smb to follow up on Bug 85405016:18
meetingology`ACTION: smoser, utlemming and smb to follow up on Bug 85405016:18
hallyn_thanks16:18
ubottuLaunchpad bug 854050 in linux (Ubuntu) "BUG at /build/buildd/linux-2.6.38/mm/swapfile.c:255" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/85405016:18
hallyn_lastly,16:18
hallyn_ACTION: utlemming to figure out qemu image situation16:18
hallyn_utlemming: ?16:19
hallyn_will mark for next week too...16:20
utlemmingqemu images will need a bit of work.16:20
utlemmingthe problem is being caused by bootloader options16:20
hallyn_is there anything more specific we can mark in a new action?16:20
utlemmingnot really16:21
hallyn_#action utlemming to figure out qemu image situation (carry-over)16:21
meetingology`ACTION: utlemming to figure out qemu image situation (carry-over)16:21
hallyn_ok, thanks :)16:21
hallyn_#topic Oneiric Development16:21
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Oneiric Development
hallyn_Daviey: robbiew: ^16:21
robbiewthere is none16:21
robbiewlol16:21
robbiewjust bug fixing :D16:21
robbiewship it!16:21
hallyn_and how16:21
hallyn_moving on,16:22
hallyn_#topic Ubuntu Server Team Events16:22
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
hallyn_obviously, openstack conference right now.  anything else coming up?16:22
hallyn_ok, moving on16:22
hallyn_#topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)16:22
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
hallyn_hggdh: hi again16:23
hallyn_moving on,16:25
hallyn_#topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)16:25
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
hallyn_smb is not around16:25
Davieyhallyn_: Just adding to the development section - things look good.. but we need more, more testing.16:25
hallyn_Daviey: after thursday, final freeze is over?  no more changes at all?16:26
hallyn_#topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)16:26
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
hallyn_NCommander is not around16:26
hallyn_#topic Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community16:26
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
hallyn_hi, anything to bring up?16:27
Davieyhallyn_: I don't think after RC (Thursday) there will be no changes.. but there will be limited changes.16:27
lynxmanmy only concern on that side is puppet, but spoke with Daviey already about it16:28
DavieyNote that things we care about in Universe can still be fixed upto 36 hours befoere release.16:28
hallyn_Daviey: phew16:28
Davieybefore*16:28
hallyn_i assume low priority bugs should wait for an SRU16:28
hallyn_(thinkgs like 'command_names=1' in /etc/lvm.conf)16:28
hallyn_#topic Open Discussion16:29
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
lynxmanJust as a question, are we finally shipping keystone in Oneiric?16:30
Davieylynxman: we always have been, but it's not in main or integrated by default.16:31
DavieyNFI if it works. :)16:31
lynxmanDaviey: it doesn't (at least not much)16:31
Davieylynxman: What bugs have you raised with the issues you had?16:31
lynxmanDaviey: we raised bugs directly with upstream, keystone mysql integration with innodb is broken due to bad schema definitions16:32
lynxmanDaviey: also another bug raised with upstream about sqlite3 code16:32
Davieylynxman: we really need Ubuntu tasks on the bugs if they are going to be fixed in Ubuntu.16:33
Davieylynxman: If you are able, and willing to help address these issues for Oneiric - that would rock. my. world.16:33
lynxmanDaviey: yeah noted, but this one affected upstream directly :)16:33
lynxmanDaviey: it's too broken for oneiric I'm afraid :/ ttx is pushing for a diablo keystone version "coming soon"16:33
lynxmanDaviey: we had lots of issues with it last week and we finally abandoned implementation for the moment16:34
DavieyThe keystone honcho and ttx are here this week, i'll grab them for gudance.16:34
Daviey[ACTION]16:34
meetingology`ACTION:16:34
hallyn_#action Daviey to talk to ttx and keystone honcho for guidance about oneiric package16:35
meetingology`ACTION: Daviey to talk to ttx and keystone honcho for guidance about oneiric package16:35
hallyn_any one else have some actions for Daviey ?16:35
* hallyn_ looks over at his dirty car16:35
hallyn_then it only remains to,16:35
hallyn_#topic Announce next meeting date and time16:36
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
hallyn_Next Tuesday, October 11 at 16:00 UTC16:36
hallyn_thanks, all16:36
hallyn_#endmeeting16:36
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingology`Meeting ended Tue Oct  4 16:36:18 2011 UTC.16:36
meetingology`Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-04-16.09.moin.txt16:36
Davieythanks hallyn_16:36
bjf#startmeeting17:00
meetingology`Meeting started Tue Oct  4 17:00:07 2011 UTC.  The chair is bjf. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.17:00
meetingology`Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired17:00
bjf##17:00
bjf## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.17:00
bjf##17:00
bjf[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting17:00
bjf[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric17:00
jjohansen\o17:00
smb\o17:00
bjf# Meeting Etiquette17:00
bjf#17:00
bjf# NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.17:00
bjf#       'o/' indicates you have something you'd like to add (wait until you are recognized)17:00
bjf#17:00
bjf[TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)17:00
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
ppisatiStable arm kernels: a new natty/omap4 kernel is out.17:00
ppisatiOneiric/ti-omap4: a new TI code drop has landed - omap 4460 support, dkms cross17:00
ppisaticompilation, a couple of drm reverts for the upcoming gfx driver and various17:00
ppisatifixes. This pretty much represents the omap4 kernel Oneiric will ship with.17:00
ppisati..17:00
bjf[TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)17:00
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
ogasawara[LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt17:00
ogasawara==== oneiric nominated bugs ====17:00
ogasawara * 40 linux kernel bugs (up 20)17:00
ogasawara==== Ubuntu ubuntu-11.10 bugs ====17:00
ogasawara * 1 linux kernel bugs (up 1)17:00
ogasawara==== <series>-updates bugs ====17:01
ogasawara * 5 oneiric linux kernel bugs (up 5)17:01
ogasawara * 13 natty linux kernel bugs (down 2)17:01
ogasawara * 3 maverick linux kernel bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara * 7 lucid linux kernel bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara * 0 hardy linux kernel bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara=== Incoming Bugs ===17:01
ogasawara * 308 oneiric bugs (up 53)17:01
ogasawara * 1663 natty bugs (up 20)17:01
ogasawara * 1108 maverick bugs (up 1)17:01
ogasawara * 992 lucid bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara * 46 hardy bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara=== Regressions ===17:01
ogasawara==== regression-update bugs ====17:01
ogasawara * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara * 17 natty bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara * 40 maverick bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara * 75 lucid bugs (down 1)17:01
ogasawara * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara==== regression-release bugs ====17:01
ogasawara * 8 oneiric bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara * 431 natty bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara * 237 maverick bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara * 209 lucid bugs (up 1)17:01
ogasawara * 2 hardy bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara==== regression-proposed bugs ====17:01
ogasawara * 1 oneiric bugs (up 1)17:01
ogasawara * 4 natty bugs (no change 0)17:01
ogasawara * 0 maverick bugs (no change 0)17:02
ogasawara * 3 lucid bugs (up 1)17:02
ogasawara * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)17:02
ogasawara..17:02
bjf[TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items17:02
bjf[LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/milestones.html17:02
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items
ogasawara[LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-11.10.html17:02
ogasawara|| apw       || desktop-o-xorg-stakeholders-request || 1 work item ||17:02
ogasawara||           || other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review  || 1 work item ||17:02
ogasawaraIf your name is in the table above, please review your final Oneiric work items.17:02
ogasawara..17:02
bjf[TOPIC] Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)17:02
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
ogasawaraWe remain at the 3.0.0-12.19 kernel and are queuing misc bug fixes at this time.  These queued fixes are not release critical and will be available in the first Oneiric SRU.  Also, upstream stable v3.0.5 and v3.0.6 were just released.  We are currently in the process of reviwing and pulling these patches.17:02
ogasawaraSome important upcoming dates are as follows:17:02
ogasawara *  Oct  6 - Release Candidate (2 days)17:02
ogasawara *  Oct 13 - Final Release (~1 week)17:02
ogasawaraI would also like to note that the P-series git repo has been rebased to v3.1-rc8 and is available at git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-p.git master-next .17:03
ogasawara..17:03
bjf[TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)17:03
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
apw=== CVE Metrics ===17:03
apw 17:03
apw[LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt17:03
apw 17:03
apwCurrently open CVEs for each supported branch:17:03
apw 17:03
apw|| Package                                  || Open      || No Fix ||17:03
apw||                                          ||           ||        ||17:03
apw|| linux Hardy                              ||    7 (+2) ||     5  ||17:03
apw|| linux Lucid                              ||    4 (+2) ||     2  ||17:03
apw|| linux Maverick                           ||    5 (+3) ||     2  ||17:03
apw|| linux Natty                              ||    4 (+2) ||     2  ||17:03
apw|| linux Oneiric                            ||    3 (+1) ||     2  ||17:04
apw|| linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||    4 (+2) ||     2  ||17:04
apw|| linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||    5 (+3) ||     2  ||17:04
apw|| linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||    4 (+2) ||     2  ||17:04
apw|| linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||    4 (+2) ||     2  ||17:04
apw|| linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||    5 (+3) ||     2  ||17:04
apw|| linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||    5 (+3) ||     2  ||17:04
apw|| linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    3 (+1) ||     2  ||17:04
apw|| linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||    5 (+3) ||     2  ||17:04
apw|| linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||    4 (+2) ||     2  ||17:04
apw 17:04
apwThree additional CVEs were added this week, one is fixed and out for review and the other two are being prepared currently.  We continue to have 2 CVEs without fix across the board.17:04
apw..17:04
bjf[TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)17:04
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)
sconklin||== Status of kernels ==17:04
sconklin||17:04
sconklin|| In general, updates have been less frequent and smaller, due to the kernel.org17:04
sconklin|| problems. This is pretty much resolved upstream, and I expect that the number of17:04
sconklin|| patches being applied in stable updates will increase sharply in the next few17:04
sconklin|| cycles.17:04
sconklin||17:04
sconklin|| SRU kernel status:17:04
sconklin|| * [[http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html|Kernel SRU Workflow Status]]17:04
sconklin|| * [[http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html|Detailed Information Here]]17:04
sconklin||17:04
sconklin|| Kernel status for each series is as follows:17:04
sconklin||17:04
sconklin||=== Hardy ===17:05
sconklin|| * Released17:05
sconklin||17:05
sconklin||=== Lucid ===17:05
sconklin|| * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/862556|Lucid Tracking Bug]]17:05
ubottuUbuntu bug 862556 in linux-lts-backport-natty (Ubuntu) "linux-lts-backport-natty: 2.6.38-12.51~lucid1 -proposed tracker" [Medium,In progress]17:05
sconklin|| * In Verification17:05
sconklin||17:05
sconklin||=== Maverick ===17:05
sconklin|| * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/854092|Maverick Tracking Bug]]17:05
ubottuUbuntu bug 854092 in Kernel SRU Workflow certification-testing "linux: 2.6.35-30.60 -proposed tracker" [Undecided,In progress]17:05
sconklin|| * In testing Phase. Undergoing regression testing, needs Certification testing17:05
sconklin||17:05
sconklin||=== Natty ===17:05
sconklin|| * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/860832|Natty Tracking Bug]]17:05
ubottuUbuntu bug 860832 in Kernel SRU Workflow verification-testing "linux: 2.6.38-12.51 -proposed tracker" [Undecided,In progress]17:05
sconklin|| * In Verification17:05
sconklin||17:05
sconklin|| Current Kernel versions are available here: http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/versions.html17:05
sconklin||17:05
sconklin..17:05
bjf[TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)17:05
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
bjfwelcome aboard jsalisbury17:06
jsalisburyo/17:06
bjfthanks everyone17:06
bjf#endmeeting17:06
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingology`Meeting ended Tue Oct  4 17:06:16 2011 UTC.17:06
meetingology`Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-04-17.00.moin.txt17:06
sconklinthanks bjf17:06
apwbjf, ta17:06
kamalthanks bjf17:06
=== Quintasan_ is now known as Quintasan
czajkowskihighvoltage: surely meeting is an hour ?18:57
highvoltageczajkowski: indeed.19:00
czajkowskihighvoltage: lets not scare me and make me run around london shall we. just for that you can chair!19:02
highvoltagemost of us can do with a bit more running around :p19:02
* highvoltage runs19:02
highvoltage(I accept my punishment)19:03
czajkowskihighvoltage: not when I just finished work navigated the tube and house hunted , you're the chair :)19:04
highvoltagechair on the day there's only one applicant... score!19:18
stgraberhighvoltage: where did you run to? I haven't seen you running :)19:21
highvoltagestgraber: that's because I was so fast!19:34
highvoltageare we ready for the EMEA meeting?19:56
czajkowskio/19:57
stgraberI'll probably be in 3 minutes19:57
highvoltageok. in the meantime, Thomas_de_Graaff are you present?19:57
Thomas_de_Graaffo/19:57
highvoltagegreat19:57
highvoltagewe'll start in just a bit19:57
Thomas_de_Graaffok19:58
highvoltageogra_, drubin: are you present?19:58
drubinohia19:58
highvoltagegreat.19:59
highvoltagewelcome to the EMEA RMB meeting for October19:59
highvoltage* Note: only EMEA RMB members can vote on applicants20:00
highvoltageThomas_de_Graaff: would you like to introduce yourself?20:00
drubinhighvoltage: the bot has a function to limit voters20:00
Thomas_de_GraaffOk20:00
popeywe not using the bot?20:00
Thomas_de_GraaffI'm a Ubuntu user for some years now, and became active in the community, mainly in promotion activities.20:00
Thomas_de_GraaffMore info can be found on the wiki:20:01
Thomas_de_Graaffhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThomasDeGraaff20:01
highvoltageany questions for Thomas_de_Graaff?20:02
czajkowskinope20:03
highvoltageThomas_de_Graaff: how do you feel about the NL loco currently? are you happy with it? is there anything you would like to change?20:03
popeyThomas_de_Graaff: what do you do to recruit new members to the team?20:03
Thomas_de_GraaffI am quite happy. If there is one thing I would like to see, it is a lot more active participants, volunteers.20:04
Thomas_de_GraaffI do not really actively recruit team members. Mostly we just start organizing something, showing ideas, and people join the effort.20:05
highvoltageAny final questions or word before we continue?20:05
popeyThomas_de_Graaff: where are the team most active?20:05
popeyirc, mailing lists, forums?20:05
Thomas_de_GraaffAs a team we mostly use the forum for communication. This is because this medium is quite popular in our loco.20:06
Thomas_de_GraaffWe are founding a legal organization to support promotion activities, there we use a mailing list.20:06
popeyis that so you can take donations?20:07
highvoltageWhat kind of legal organization?20:07
Thomas_de_GraaffIt's a non profit organization. This has to do with being able to receive donations, to get a bank account, to be able to arrange insurance for volunteers when needed etc.20:07
Thomas_de_GraaffFor sponsors it is really nice if we have a non profit organization, this has to do with tax regulations.20:08
Thomas_de_GraaffTo pay our bills we need a bank account.20:08
popeyI'd be interested to see your experience documented20:09
popeymany teams consider this an important task20:09
popeyand I think they could learn from your experience20:09
popey(even though regulatory differences will be in different countries / territories of course)20:09
highvoltageI'm quite surprised to hear this to be honest.20:09
highvoltagepopey: what other teams have done this?20:09
popeyFrance AIUI20:09
popeyBelgium?20:09
leoquantgermany20:10
popeyit's certainly a hot topic for many locos20:10
RawChidBelgium yes20:10
popeyI have no further questions thanks Thomas_de_Graaff20:10
Thomas_de_Graaffok20:10
highvoltageI'm also very interested since it's often considered a very, very bad idea to do that. So it would be nice to have some real-life stories from those teams about it.20:10
popeyyeah20:11
popeybtw anyone here to cheer for Thomas_de_Graaff ?20:11
* popey expects leoquant is?20:11
leoquantyep !20:11
commandoline\o/20:11
Ronnieo/20:11
RawChid.o/ !20:11
highvoltagecheerleaders, cheer now or forever keep your peace!20:11
leoquant\o/20:11
popeyexcellent!20:11
gijsbert+120:11
Thomas_de_GraaffThx. guys. :D20:11
ertai_NL+120:11
asfyxia\o/\20:11
highvoltageOk, time to vote, if you're not highvoltage, popey, drubin, ogra_, stgraber or czajkowski, then please don't vote!20:12
* popey checks he's on that list20:12
highvoltageVOTE: Thomas_de_Graaff for Ubuntu membership20:12
popey+120:12
iulianI'm not on that list. Oups.20:13
czajkowski+120:13
stgraber+120:13
highvoltageiulian: ah, I didn't realise you're here, go ahead please :)20:13
popeyKeep up the great work, and I expect blog posts on planet ubuntu about your team! :D20:13
drubin+120:13
iulianhighvoltage: Sure. :)20:13
iulian+120:13
highvoltage+1 [ great loco involvement ]20:13
popeythats 5 of 720:13
highvoltageI don't think ogra_ is here20:13
popeyor 6 of 720:14
iulianWhere's the bot?20:14
popeyif you count it correctly20:14
Thomas_de_GraaffSo I passed?20:14
highvoltageyes20:14
leoquantgreat! congrats Thomas_de_Graaff20:14
Thomas_de_Graaff:D20:14
highvoltageThomas_de_Graaff: congratulations and welcome!20:14
Thomas_de_GraaffThx.20:14
popeyyay!20:14
gijsbertOke Thomas20:14
asfyxiacongratz Thomas20:14
popeycongrats, keep up the great work in .nl!20:14
RawChidCongratz Thomas_de_Graaff20:14
highvoltageiulian: sorry next time I'll take a few minutes before to learn how the new bot works20:14
drubincongrats20:14
Ronniecongrats Thomas_de_Graaff20:15
Thomas_de_GraaffThx. heren!20:15
highvoltagepopey: are you doing the usual launchpad driving?20:15
popeyya20:15
highvoltagegreat20:15
popeyadded thomasdegraaff to ~ubuntumembers20:15
ertai_NLThomas_de_Graaff: congrats20:16
highvoltageThomas_de_Graaff: if you have any questions feel free to contact any of us, usually it takes around a day before your @ubuntu.com email address will kick in20:16
highvoltageanything else before we adjourne?20:16
popeyThis will be my last meeting I suspect20:17
JanCto be clear: ubuntu-be is NOT a legal entity right now (we don't need it to have a bank account)20:17
popeySo just wanted to say it's been great fun, and keep up the great work!20:17
highvoltagepopey: wow, thanks for your work and contributions, you will be missed20:17
popeyThank you.20:17
highvoltageJanC: yeah I believe you can have a bank account for 'clubs' in most countries. is that what you did?20:18
ertai_NLJanC: I also thougth that..20:18
JanChighvoltage: something like that, yes20:18
highvoltagewell, I think that's it for this meeting, meeting adjourned! Thanks to everyone for attending! Next EMEA RMB meeting is on 2 November 2011 at the same time.20:19
JanCthey call it a "factual association" or something like that20:19
iulianpopey: I didn't have time to reply to that email but all I wanted to say is that you've done a brilliant job in both teams and you'll surely be missed!20:19
iulianSo thanks for that.20:19
drubinIsthe meeting oveR?20:20
* drubin has a truck load of work he would like to get done before bed20:20
highvoltagedrubin: it is indeed.20:20
drubinthanks highvoltage for chairing and popey for driving the bo20:20
drubinlaunchpad*20:21
JanCwith "factual" <-> "registered" ☺20:23
ogra_sorry, i missed it, i'm actually +1 for Thomas_de_Graaff20:25
ogra_(checked the wiki this afternoon already)20:25
highvoltageThomas_de_Graaff: ^^^ for what it's worth :)20:26
ogra_heh20:26
* popey hugs ogra_ 20:27
ogra_hey :)20:27
pleia2highvoltage: include ubuntu-news-team on the mail too please so we can publish it in UWN :)20:28
pleia2(a forward is fine)20:29
highvoltagedone. thanks :)20:30
* popey gets that mail again 20:30
popey:D20:30
highvoltageoh crap I sent it to ubuntu-news and not to ubuntu-news-team20:32
highvoltageI'm sure someone will reject it at least... sending to the right one now20:32
highvoltagepopey: prepare to receive it again!20:32
pleia2thank you :)20:33
juancarlospacohi guys, gals, and bots20:56
unimixhey, juancarlospaco ! Nice to see you here :)20:59
pleia2hi everyone21:00
juancarlospacohello unimix, nice to see you too :)21:00
juancarlospacohello Princess21:00
juancarlospacoLeia21:00
popeyhello21:00
pleia2We don't have anything on the agenda for this Community Council meeting so I figured we could just do a couple announcements :)21:00
popey21:00
popey^ that smiley is huge in the ubuntu font21:01
pleia2nominations for the new CC closed on Thursday, so sabdfl is looking over them and hopefully will release the poll to ubuntu members soon21:01
pleia2hehe21:01
popeyexcellent.21:01
juancarlospacocool21:01
technovikinghello21:02
juancarlospaconothing is the Agenda for now ...?21:02
pleia2popey put out a call on Wednesday for more ubuntu users moderators: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2011-September/251850.html21:02
pleia2so the CC is working on reviewing those too21:02
juancarlospaco0_o21:02
juancarlospacooh...21:02
popeynow, about that21:02
popeyshould the cc discuss first then send to the list?21:02
popeyor what? I am not sure what process to follow here21:02
pleia2oops, this is the actual announcement: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2011-September/251713.html21:03
pleia2(the other link is clarification)21:03
pleia2popey: not sure21:03
popeyI'll post the list we have so far to the cc list and ask for help :D21:04
pleia2thanks :)21:04
popeyglad we've had plenty of volunteers21:04
popeysad that it decends into the usual crapfest ☹21:04
pleia2yeah :|21:04
pleia2that's all I had announcement-wise21:05
popeyok, I have a discussion point for you21:05
popeymy perception may be way off the mark here, so do let me know21:06
popeyI've noticed some lack of enthusiasm in much of the ubuntu leadership lately21:06
popey(myself included)21:06
pleia2yeah, we've been having trouble keeping boards and councils staffed21:06
pleia2and those staffing them, active21:06
popeynow perhaps some of this is natural churn21:06
popeyperhaps some is people getting "burned out" (c) jono bacon21:07
popeyi dont think it's either of those though21:07
popeybut I can't put my finger on what it is21:07
popeyare we not doing enough to develop new people into leadership roles perhaps?21:07
pleia2it felt like to me we lost a number of key people in the natty cycle, and in every case I saw it coming21:07
popeyare people just sick of working with the same people for the last 6 years?21:07
pleia2good question21:08
popeyI can see that we have a lot of the same people around the community21:08
popeywhich in some ways is great of course :D21:08
popeybut you know what it's like, working day in day out with the same people21:09
popeyyou can become tired of it21:09
pleia2I think part of it is also the growth of the project, back when we got involved it wasn't *that* intimidating to go for a leadership position21:09
juancarlospacointeresting readings here . . .21:09
* beuno waves21:10
pleia2or feel like you could speak up at any time21:10
pleia2hey beuno :)21:10
beunopersonally, I think part of it is that there seems to be less of a chance to influenve where Ubuntu is going, from the community21:10
beunowhich would discourage people from getting too involved21:10
popeythat too21:10
pleia2yeah21:11
popeywhy should I bother speaking up, canonical ignore me anyway?21:11
popeythat kind of thing?21:11
beunoso the first place that would suffer due to that is leadership21:11
beunoyeah21:11
popeyi think that's certainly got better recently, at least at the very top21:12
beunoyeah, I think communication got better21:12
popeythe cc has had conf calls to discuss issues21:12
pleia2and jono's community team has put a lot of work into making the community feel encouraged to participate in the direction of Unity21:12
popeymark has taken on board comments from the cc about issues relating to to (for example) canonical<->community communication, and the ubuntu <-> gnome relationship.21:12
popeyyes, unity is quite a success in that regard ;)21:13
beunoso I think we may need to find in which places leadership is most useful21:13
popeylooks to me on the surface like the development stuff seems to mostly "work", the DMB, tech board etc, that side of things seems "okay"?21:13
popeyit's more the community governance21:14
pleia2yeah21:14
popeyIt seems to me that jono has been a bit more distant from "us" this last year21:14
pleia2agreed21:14
popeyperhaps because he's had to take on other stuff21:14
jonopopey, in what way?21:14
popeywell, in the past we "saw" you a lot21:14
popeyyou participated a lot on mailing list threads, on irc21:14
jonoin what context? meetings, IRC?21:15
pleia2jono: your team has been very focused on getting new developers and working on development workflows, less with locos and other community teams21:15
popeynow, I mostly see you telling your team to get on skype/G+21:15
popeyof course there's the videos, blog posts and stuff which still happen21:15
popeybut your role seems (from my perspective) to have changed quite a bit in the last year21:15
jonoI think I have spend less time on #ubuntu-community-team21:15
jonoprimarily due to being busy with other work21:15
jonopopey, how has it changed?21:15
popeyless visibility, less involvement in community21:16
popeysure we now have governance structures which are mostly semi-autonomous21:16
jonopopey, well I think I have been as equally involved, I am just not doing it all in that IRC channel21:16
popeyso the jono-blocking-factor is taken out of the equation21:16
jonomuch of it has been on calls and elsewhere21:16
popeyHmmm.21:16
jonoe.g. I spent a lot of time with the loco leadership around l.u.c21:16
popeyI'm not artiulating this quite the way I mean.21:16
jonopopey, what is the concern you have?21:17
popeywell, it's not specifically #ubuntu-community-team, and the amount of keyboard to irc time you spend21:17
beunoso, I think we may need to find and articulate a better sense of purpose for the Ubuntu community21:17
jonopopey, right, but I am not sure if IRC time is the primary indicator of community involvement21:17
jonoit is not the best metric21:17
jonoit is a metric though21:17
popeythats my point21:18
popeyor rather that's specifically _not_ my point21:18
popeyI am _not_ saying your irc time is a measure21:18
popeythats exactly what I'm not saying21:18
popeyit's in general21:18
popeyI see less mail from you, less involvement from you21:18
popeyI hope this isnt coming across as a personal sleight, it's not meant that way21:18
jonowell I have been less involved in mailing lists, but I have had a lot more private and team-related mail21:19
popeyit was merely an observation that the community and canonical are changing21:19
pleia2I guess it's because the involvement has gone to less asyncronous mediums like calls and g+ type things?21:19
popeythats partly it, it's less visible to "us"21:19
jonoI am not denying my role has changed more as my team has grown21:19
jonoit is less about Jono who organizes much of the community and instead the guys to who do much of that work in their respective parts21:19
juancarlospacoNo more CD Ship-it, Android Tablets getting popular over Netbooks, Ubuntu in general its becoming very very easy to use and generates less community orientation requests, and such things...21:19
juancarlospaco:P21:19
jonomuch of my role is assessing the needs of stakeholders and ensuring the team is happy and delivering21:20
jonoso what is the primary concern behind this discussion?21:20
popeyok, perhaps we're moving away from the point21:20
jonois it the position of the community, leadership lethargy, or Canonical's involvement?21:20
popeythis wasn't my original point :D21:20
popeyi think there is certainly leadership lethargy21:21
IdleOnejono I think the feeling is that you don't come out and play as often as you used to :)21:21
popeyand a lack of new blood being brought up21:21
popeywe seem to be fighting to find people to staff boards and councils21:21
jonopopey, leadership new blood21:21
popeyit's quite a struggle21:21
jonoIdleOne, I don't get as much to chit-chat, that's for sure, because my work is much more compressed than it was21:21
popeysome leadership, some potential leadership21:21
pleia2yeah, last time we restaffed the CC the list of nominees was huge, mark had to reduce the list to a managable amount for the vote21:21
jonopopey, so do you feel leadership is not feeling energized in the project?21:22
pleia2we're nowhere near that this time, and frequently staffing other boards requires multiple calls, and manual work (directly asking people to apply)21:22
popeyyes21:22
jonopopey, and this is a tough question, but is that the leadership is not feeling energized, or you specifically are not?21:22
popeyI think it's slipped over the last 12-18 months21:22
popeyit's an observation of a few people/teams21:22
jonopopey, do you have any specific examples?21:23
popeyasia board, irc council...21:23
jonoand what are the issues there?21:23
popeyasia board becoming quorate has been painful21:23
popeyrepeated missed meetings21:23
jonoright21:23
pleia2I spent months getting asias back on track21:23
popeyirc council has also missed meetings21:23
jonowhy do you feel those issues are happening?21:24
popey22:06:54 < popey> now perhaps some of this is natural churn21:24
popey22:07:07 < popey> perhaps some is people getting "burned out" (c) jono bacon21:24
popey22:07:15 < popey> i dont think it's either of those though21:24
popey^^^^ that21:24
popey22:07:21 < popey> but I can't put my finger on what it is21:24
jonoyou said you didnt it was those though :P21:24
jonoso do you think it is churn and burnout?21:24
popeyyeah, was copy/pasting for context21:24
jonoright, no you think those are the primary issues?21:25
jonos/no/so21:25
popeyi think if left unchecked we'll have an even harder time staffing boards in 6 months / 12 months21:25
jonook, so lets drill into the causes and think of some solutions21:25
popeyas I said to pleia2 earlier, perhaps people are just sick of working with the same people for 6 years?21:25
jonoit strikes me that the issue is leaders not feeling a sense of drive for leadership21:26
jononot feeling inspired to lead21:26
jonoso it then feels mechanical21:26
jonoand maybe we can improve that21:26
beunoyeah, as I said before, i think the changes in the project have taken away some of the sense of purpose21:26
rwwthis ^21:26
popeyyes, as beuno mentioned earlier, community people feel "out of the loop"21:26
jonoI think redefining the importance of our leadership could be valuable21:26
granjerosupporting #ubuntu-ar21:26
rwwHave been sitting trying to write something, but beuno did it shorter and better :)21:26
jonowell, feeling out of the loop is one thing, feeling motivated is another21:27
jonoboth have problems and solutions21:27
PendulumWell, I think when people don't feel in the loop, it's harder for them to feel motivated21:27
popeyexactly21:27
jonothey are definitely connected21:27
popeyfeeling like what you do/say doesn't actually matter21:27
IdleOne^21:27
popeyfeeling more like a tiny tiny cog21:27
jonoso you think some leadership folks don't feel they have an impact on the project?21:28
popeyyes21:28
popeyvery much so21:28
jonook21:28
popeyI certainly do.21:28
nhainesI agree with beuno.  As a community advocate, the harder it is to know what decisions are being made, the harder it is for me to go out and tell people about them.21:28
jonoso what kind of impact?21:28
nhainesAnd even worse, it's more and more difficult to know where decisions are being made so I can be a part of those decisions.21:28
popeythe kind of impact that makes doing what you do in your own time worthwhile21:28
jonowell I think we can divide this into two areas:21:28
popeycoders create code that people run, that's intrinsicly worthwhile21:29
jono * Decision Making - who makes decisions for the strategic direction of Ubuntu.21:29
popeyapproving a new member can be worthwhile when you see the work they do21:29
jono * Ability To Participate - feeling you have the opportunity to bring value to Ubuntu21:29
jonoit sounds like popey is referring to seeing the value of your contributions21:29
jonoand the impact it has on others21:29
popeyyes, but take a look at the ircc for example, where they try to keep order and ensure timely, reliable, efficient, accurate support and help in our channels.21:30
popeythat can be very demanding21:30
jonoright21:30
popeyas can moderating mailing lists :D21:31
jonoso how do you feel we could reward their efforts and make them feel like they bring value?21:31
jonoI agree with the problem, but I think we need to think of solutions for each board as they differe21:31
jonodiffer21:31
popeysure21:31
popeyBut I believe it's a widespread problem21:31
jonoI think part of the challenge here is that leadership in Ubuntu is often a thankless task21:31
PendulumI don't think it's specific to the boards, either21:31
popeynot something that affects just one individual or board21:31
jonopopey, agreed, but the solutions are specific to the domain21:31
popeyindeed21:32
jonoso it sounds like the problem we have is how we make leaders feel accomplished in their work21:32
jonoin work that is traditionally pretty thankless21:32
pleia2yeah, I don't know how we do that21:32
jonoand we have some specific boards who need more support than others21:32
* popey pins a gold star on pleia2's chest21:32
jonoI certainly don't want to pin the responsibility on the CC, but with many boards reporting to the CC and TB, I think it would be great to see more inspirational leadership from the CC and TB21:33
popeyYup, I agree.21:33
jonothis way if the CC and TB feel good about their works and that value, it could cascade down21:34
jonomaybe it would help if I have a regular call with the CC21:34
pleia2fwiw, half the CC is not standing for re-appointment21:34
jonoand we can discuss these kinds of topics21:34
jonopleia2, right21:34
rww"how we make leaders feel accomplished in their work" --> I'd say Ubuntu contributors in general rather than leaders, personally. The burnout's in the ranks, not just the leadership.21:34
popeythat says a lot21:34
jonorww, agreed, but we need to start somewhere21:34
rwwand there are contributors not going for leadership because they're burned out21:34
popeyhalf the cc is stepping down.21:34
rwwjono: indeed21:34
pleia2so this problem goes all the way to the top, and it's hard for the CC to fix it when half the CC is impacted themselves (or otherwise moving away)21:35
jonopleia2, agreed21:35
jonoso what can we do?21:35
rww(which exascerbates the problem because less leaders = more work on the current leaders, and people end up leading multiple teams and burning out faster... but yeah, got to start somewhere)21:35
jonodo you folks have any ideas for solutions?21:35
jonoI totally agree with the problem21:35
popeyok, good21:35
popeyI'm glad we're on the same page jono21:35
pleia2I think we ask people how they feel and what they think will motivate them21:35
jonopopey, yup21:35
popeyi had a chat with dholbach about this earlier21:36
popeyhe suggested talking to people who depart a while after to find out what specific issues there were21:36
popeyof course thats too late21:36
beunoso maybe we could figure out some tangible goals for the community, ones the we all care about21:36
jonoI think one thing we need to be clear on, and going back to our previous discussion, is that just because I am not on IRC or chit-chatty as much, it doesn't mean that I or Canonical care less about the community21:36
popeybut if people have already put their mind to leaving, there's not a whole lot you can do21:36
popeyjono: just to be clear, that wasnt my point21:36
jonoI have always noticed that some people base their level of interaction with me as an indicator of Canonical interest in community21:36
jonopopey, I know, but this is a wider point21:36
popeymy point was more that it's pretty obvious from the external-to-canonical perspective that your job has changed21:37
jonoand maybe I need to clarify this more than when I started it was just me and now I manage five people, so this changes the nature of the role21:37
jonoyup21:37
PendulumI think from a general community point of view, there's a current feeling that there is more coming out from Canonical to the community than there is going back in _especially_ from the bits of the community that aren't coding21:37
popeyhowever, I too would like to find solutions to this21:37
Pendulumand by "out" I mean in terms of communication, not content21:38
jonoPendulum, what do you feel is the reason for that perspective?21:38
jonomy hunch is that we need to solve the problem from the top down - get the CC and TB motivation and inspirational to the community and then that will have more of a trickle down effect21:38
jonowe need to fix the CC and TB issues before we can truly solve the other teams21:39
popeyI agree, however I think you're somewhat underestimating your role in this21:39
popeyyou are Community Manager.21:39
pleia2a recent example is the countdown banners, canonical needed to be poked to start the competition for countdown banners, the deadline was very late, and they *still* haven't released them, even though they said they would last week21:39
popey(sorry to labour the point)21:39
jonopopey, I agree, and as I said earlier, I think I need to have regular discussions with the CC and TB21:39
pleia2so community members who worked on these are feeling a bit put out, people who need them for their sites are too21:39
jonobut I can't personally go and solve our leadership problems21:39
jonoI don't have the bandwidth21:39
jonopleia2, good example21:40
beunoI also think that we need to solve this within the community21:40
beunowithin the current councils, particularly the CC, I guess21:40
popeywell the vote will soon be underway to elect a new cc21:40
popeyand with 50% not standing for re-election there _will_ be "new blood" on the cc21:41
jonopopey, I am not taking myself out of the mix here, but I think we do need to empower the CC and TB to lead more21:41
jonoif it was just me, everything would block on me21:41
* beuno agrees21:41
popeysure21:41
PendulumI was also thinking on the matter of you have 5 people on your team under you, but none of them (as far as I can tell) deals specifically with general community, instead they're specialised. You are now more manager than direct contact (which is fine and makes sense), but it leaves teams that aren't translations, devel, cloud, QA, or upstream out of the loop21:41
jonoPendulum, sure, but that's just the nature of the beast21:42
pleia2jono: well, you used to be the one who filled in the gaps21:42
jonowe are not going to be able to invest in a general community manager21:42
jonopleia2, right, and I think that I am still doing that to a degree, I just have less time than I did21:42
jonodue to managing the team21:42
* pleia2 nods21:43
PendulumRight, but considering a good number of the people who do go for leadership positions are actually coming out of teams that don't fall under the more specifics21:43
jonothis is why I think we need to enable the community to lead21:43
jonono one should just look to me or my team for leadership21:43
Pendulumthat then they don't feel like they have a voice to go to within Canonical21:43
pleia2that hasn't really been communitcated well, so I think some of the teams feel a bit abandoned (in fact, I'm not even sure who we assign blueprints to anymore for teams like -women ad -news)21:43
Seeker`the community shouldn't look to community managers for leadership?21:43
jonoPendulum, do you feel me or my team are  unapproachable for people to reach out to at Canonical?21:43
popey"no one should just look to me or my team for leadership" that is quite a change21:44
popeywe used to certainly.21:44
jonopopey, oops typo21:44
jonono one should just look to me or my team *only* for leadership21:44
popeyI dont think that sufficiently changes the meaning :D21:44
jonoSeeker`, of course we can provide some leadership, but Ubuntu is too big for us to be the only leaders21:45
jonopopey, well we have never been the only leaders in the community21:45
jonothere were plenty of leaders in Ubuntu before I joined21:45
popeysure.21:45
popeyI'm not about jono-bashing.21:45
popeylook, we have 15 mins left, suggestions welcome on ways to improve the status quo.21:45
jonopopey, what I am trying to understand is what your primary concern is21:45
jonoI think we all agree we need more leadership21:45
jonoand it can't be just my team21:46
AlanBellgiven this conversation, how was there nothing on the CC agenda today?21:46
jonoit sounds like I all know we are slammed21:46
Pendulumjono: I'm saying that if there are issues that are specific to groups that don't fall into those categories and quite honestly I think a lot of people feel like you're too busy to poke on a lot of things, then who do they go to?21:46
pleia2AlanBell: popey snuck up on us!21:46
popeyAlanBell: i only thought of it this afternoon21:46
Pendulumjono: I don't think it's an issue with you or your team specifically21:46
nhainesI agree that maybe there *should* be a general community manager from Canonical.  Especially if you (jono) are being more useful overseeing the others.  I know your directs are fantastically efficient.21:46
beunoSeeker`, also, don't forget that jono is the Community Manager for Canonical, which isn't a community position  :)21:46
PendulumI think it's structural21:46
Pendulumnhaines: that's more what I'm thinking21:47
popeyI'd be interested in seeing sabdfl's take on this21:47
jonoPendulum, it depends on the issues, if it is Canonical or blocking on Canonical, my team can help, if it is general ideas or leadership, I agree we may not have time sometimes21:47
popeyjono: i guess in short it boils down to community motivation.21:47
popeyor lack thereof21:47
jonopopey, right, and what is the source of the demotivation?21:47
pleia2jono: I think the blueprint situation is worth considering, for any teams that don't fall under your guys, how do we get blueprints looked at? how do we get on the radar for the UDS schedule? you may not be the only leaders but you're the ones who control that and there are no instructions for how to21:48
jonowe all keep reiterating the problem but not identifying the cause so we can fix it :-)21:48
pleia2I just ask akgraner to make things happen, and she nudges the right people21:48
pleia2then -women and -news get on the schedule21:48
popeyjono: you seem to be implying that we know the cause.21:48
jonopleia2, I can certainly not this as an issue - this is something that we can solve with more people approving, and this could include the CC and TB21:48
Pendulumpleia2: I always poke jcastro ;-)21:48
jonopopey, I am not saying you do, but you know more about the problem than I do21:48
jonoI am asking you to delve in a little deeper to see if you can see the cause21:49
jonowhy are the community feeling more demotivated?21:49
jonoonce we get our finger on it I am 100% committed to solving it21:49
popeyi feel like I'm talking to an Eliza bot21:49
jono?21:49
popeynvm21:49
jonook21:49
charlie-tcaIf I may21:49
nhainesSometimes I feel like Canonical doesn't have a clear direction they're moving in with Ubuntu, and I think that churns up the water for the community as well.21:50
pleia2charlie-tca: please21:50
charlie-tcaOne of the issues I have seen is when community sees a problem, identifies it, begins to find solutions21:50
charlie-tcaThen someone from Canonical comes in and says : we are going to do ...21:50
Seeker`I admit I've been out of the loop for a while, but it sounds like there is a lack of direction within the community. The TB is good for directing technical direction, and the CC is good for more general wide-spread decision, but if canonical wants a community then there need to be people within canonical that the community can go to for advice / diretion / to get things done21:50
charlie-tcacommunity now feels sqashed, and wonders why they should bother down the road21:50
Pendulumcharlie-tca: +121:51
nhainescharlie-tca: +121:51
jonocharlie-tca, could you mail me a few examples of that so I can get a better idea of the issues you are referring to21:51
jonoso a feeling that some Canonical staff stomp on community strategy21:51
charlie-tcaes21:51
jonothanks charlie-tca21:51
charlie-tcayes21:51
IdleOnenhaines: I disagree. I believe Canonical does have a clear direction. IMO and the opinion of a lot of people Canonical appears to care more about the money side of Ubuntu than it does the community side. least in the past yeah maybe two years.21:51
IdleOnes/yeah/year/21:52
jonoIdleOne, while we are definitely trying to drive revenue, I don't think Canonical cares less about community21:52
nhainesIdleOne: I don't have a problem with Canonical focusing on money.  It means the community doesn't have to.21:52
popeyjono: sorry if I dont have causes, this only came to mind this afternoon, after a convo with holbach, and other leaders.21:52
jonobut I do agree that the community dynamic has changed here and there21:52
jonopopey, np21:52
IdleOnejono: it may be true that they still care but it doesn't look like it from this side of the screen21:52
nhainesIdleOne: But a lot of the design decisions dropping out of the sky doesn't help much either.  And it may just be perspective.21:52
pleia2not to beat the dead unity horse, but that change had significant impact on teams like accessibility and docs, they were seriously blind-sided and had very little help to get their respective things sorted for a release with a new UI21:52
beunoI also don't think the change is about revenue at all, but about the strategy for achieving the goal (bug #1, etc)21:52
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1 in Ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/121:52
jonoI really want to resolve these issues, and I am keen to work with folks to identify them and solve them21:52
jonoI would like to liaise with the CC to identify the causes and put plans in place to resolve these in 12.0421:53
jonoin the meantime, can I ask each of you to mail me at jono@ubuntu.com and summarize the concerns you have with our community21:53
jonothis will help give me some more context about some of these challenges21:53
AlanBelljono: it would be good if the plan for 200,000,000 users was more fully articulated, so far that is just an aspiration stated, not an exciting plan of how to do it21:54
Seeker`why are community "fixes" tied to releases?21:54
jonoAlanBell, you assume it is articulated21:54
jono;-)21:54
jonounfortunately I have to hop on the phone, but I am really glad we had this discussion21:55
nhainesSeeker`: because Ubuntu is structured heavily around cadence.  They can blueprint this for 12.04 and meet at UDS to talk about it.21:55
charlie-tcaThank you, jono I will get you an email21:55
jonoI think I need to step back in more and work with some of our leaders to identify these issues and resolve them21:55
beunoso maybe wait until the new CC members are on board, bring up this discussion again with a little bit of warning for everybody to think about it?  :)21:55
nhainesSeeker`: in that sense, the timing here is very fortunate.21:55
jonomaybe I should stand for the CC21:55
jonoso folks, please do share your concerns with me via email, all emails will be treated in confidence, so feel free to be open21:56
pleia2thanks jono21:56
jonoapologies, folks, our community should be having these issues21:57
popeyyeah, thanks jono, sorry for pulling you in with no notice21:57
jonoit should be a fun and productive place to be21:57
jonopopey, no worries, it is important that we get these things out in the open and discuss them21:57
jonolater, folks21:57
pleia2and thanks everyone who chimed in, it helps a lot21:57
popeypleia2: i think we should mail the meeting link to the cc21:57
pleia2popey: yes :)21:57
popeyI really appreciate everyone speaking up today, that was really vauable21:58
pleia2I'll do it this evening if no one else has (need to get back to work now)21:58
popeyI'll do it now21:58
pleia2thanks21:58
popeynp21:58
popeyI'll cc jono21:59
jonothanks popey21:59
Pendulumpopey: thank you for bringing it up. I think it's been an elephant in the room for a while21:59
charlie-tcapopey: thanks for getting the discussion started21:59
nhainespopey: I think you put words to a problem everyone was feeling.22:00
Seeker`popey for president \o/22:00
pleia2lol22:01
* Pendulum gives popey chocolate22:01
popeythanks.22:01
=== jjohansen is now known as jj-afk

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!