=== doko__ is now known as doko
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
=== granjero is now known as granjero-afk
=== bulldog98_ is now known as bulldog98
[16:02] <hallyn_> \o/
[16:03] <lynxman> hallyn_: hey :)
[16:03] <hallyn_> hm, that looks too enthusiastic
[16:03] <hallyn_> \-o
[16:03] <lynxman> hallyn_: try a more subdued approach
[16:03] <jamespage> o/
[16:03] <hallyn_> yeah.  i'm not at some fancy conference where i can guzzle coffeee all day to keep me enthuzed :)
[16:03] <jamespage> hello fellow ubuntu-server'ers
[16:04] <lynxman> jamespage! \o/
[16:04] <hallyn_> that's espresso talking
[16:04] <lynxman> hallyn_: I'm out of Nespresso capsules, crisis mode here
[16:04] <jamespage> whos in the seat this week?
[16:04] <jamespage> utlemming - did you do last week?
[16:05] <hallyn_> well i think we're hoping spamaps will be here
[16:05] <jamespage> SpamapS - around?
[16:06] <hallyn_> else i'll do it.  (or we can take this chance to fold in Ursinha)
[16:06] <m_3> I think he's working on hw in Boston
[16:06] <hallyn_> excuses
[16:06] <utlemming> I did...I thought I updated the wiki
[16:06] <lynxman> Ursinha: time to shine? :)
[16:06] <hallyn_> utlemming: you didnt' update the list of people at the top
[16:06] <hallyn_> (moving yourself to the back)
[16:07] <hallyn_> and no. smoser was teh last to update
[16:07]  * utlemming is embarrassed for dropping the ball
[16:07] <jamespage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20110927
[16:07] <jamespage> hey - you filed minutes
[16:07] <hallyn_> it's a lot of steps...
[16:08] <hallyn_> ok, on emore minute for Ursinha or SpamapS to speak up
[16:08] <hallyn_> Daviey: who else do we need to fold in btw?
[16:08] <Daviey> I am here, i suspect the other ODS attendees will not be.
[16:08] <Daviey> The internet is awful.
[16:09] <hallyn_> sigh
[16:09] <hallyn_> should we postponed?
[16:09] <Daviey> I think we should do a run regardless, even if it's not fully addressed.
[16:09] <hallyn_> #startmeeting
[16:09] <meetingology`> Meeting started Tue Oct  4 16:09:45 2011 UTC.  The chair is hallyn_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[16:09] <meetingology`> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[16:09] <hallyn_> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[16:10] <hallyn_> ACTION: hggdh and SpamapS to discuss SRU verification work for bug 750371 at next meeting or before
[16:10] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 750371 in squid (Ubuntu Maverick) "squid causing /var to stay busy during shutdown" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/750371
[16:10] <hallyn_> hggdh: are you around?
[16:10] <hggdh> yes
[16:10] <hallyn_> did  y'all talk?
[16:10] <hggdh> I am, right now, looking at it; no, I did not talk with SpamapS yet
[16:11] <hallyn_> punt for next week?
[16:11] <hggdh> pinged him, but he seems unavailable
[16:11] <hallyn_> ok, thx
[16:11] <hggdh> I intend to test it as soon as I have my KVM as I want
[16:11] <hggdh> which should happen in the next 30 min
[16:11] <hallyn_> #action hggdh and SpamapS to discuss SRU verification work for bug 750371 at next meeting or before (hggdh to test)
[16:11] <meetingology`> ACTION: hggdh and SpamapS to discuss SRU verification work for bug 750371 at next meeting or before (hggdh to test)
[16:11] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 750371 in squid (Ubuntu Maverick) "squid causing /var to stay busy during shutdown" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/750371
[16:12] <hallyn_> ACTION: jamespage to look at bug 655533
[16:12] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 655533 in likewise-open (Ubuntu Natty) "[master] package likewise-open 5.4.0.42111-2ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/655533
[16:12] <jamespage> done - fixed
[16:12] <hallyn_> excellent!  thanks
[16:12] <jamespage> in oneiric anyways
[16:12] <hallyn_> : Daviey, smoser, hallyn to follow up on bug 801494
[16:12] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 801494 in Ubuntu "Multi part LVM layout: system fails to boot due to missing volumes" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/801494
[16:12] <hallyn_> hmmmmmm
[16:12] <jamespage> I've been debugging that with jhunt today
[16:12] <Daviey> That is blocked on seeing if it is a duplicate of the udev race, no?
[16:14] <jamespage> Daviey: pretty sure it is  - lemme catchup with jhunt again - in all likelyhood it is a dupe
[16:14] <hallyn_> jamespage: any progress not reflected in the bugs or email yet?
[16:15] <jamespage> hallyn_: action me to follow up with jhunt
[16:15] <jamespage> but no progress - jhunt has had remote access to the system
[16:15] <jamespage> its reproducable but no fix yet
[16:15] <hallyn_> #action jamespage to follow up with jhunt on udev/lvm bugs including 801494
[16:15] <meetingology`> ACTION: jamespage to follow up with jhunt on udev/lvm bugs including 801494
[16:16] <hallyn_> ACTION: Deadline for ODS is today
[16:16] <hallyn_> nothing to do there :)
[16:16] <jamespage> \o/
[16:16] <hallyn_> ACTION: smoser, utlemming and smb to follow up on Bug 854050
[16:16] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 854050 in linux (Ubuntu) "BUG at /build/buildd/linux-2.6.38/mm/swapfile.c:255" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/854050
[16:16] <hallyn_> utlemming: ?
[16:17] <hallyn_> sounds from the bug report like it is solved?
[16:17] <utlemming> I'm still testing that. New AMI's are being spun for testing.
[16:18] <utlemming> mark that for follow-up next week
[16:18] <hallyn_> ok
[16:18] <hallyn_> #action smoser, utlemming and smb to follow up on Bug 854050
[16:18] <meetingology`> ACTION: smoser, utlemming and smb to follow up on Bug 854050
[16:18] <hallyn_> thanks
[16:18] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 854050 in linux (Ubuntu) "BUG at /build/buildd/linux-2.6.38/mm/swapfile.c:255" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/854050
[16:18] <hallyn_> lastly,
[16:18] <hallyn_> ACTION: utlemming to figure out qemu image situation
[16:19] <hallyn_> utlemming: ?
[16:20] <hallyn_> will mark for next week too...
[16:20] <utlemming> qemu images will need a bit of work.
[16:20] <utlemming> the problem is being caused by bootloader options
[16:20] <hallyn_> is there anything more specific we can mark in a new action?
[16:21] <utlemming> not really
[16:21] <hallyn_> #action utlemming to figure out qemu image situation (carry-over)
[16:21] <meetingology`> ACTION: utlemming to figure out qemu image situation (carry-over)
[16:21] <hallyn_> ok, thanks :)
[16:21] <hallyn_> #topic Oneiric Development
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Oneiric Development
[16:21] <hallyn_> Daviey: robbiew: ^
[16:21] <robbiew> there is none
[16:21] <robbiew> lol
[16:21] <robbiew> just bug fixing :D
[16:21] <robbiew> ship it!
[16:21] <hallyn_> and how
[16:22] <hallyn_> moving on,
[16:22] <hallyn_> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
[16:22] <hallyn_> obviously, openstack conference right now.  anything else coming up?
[16:22] <hallyn_> ok, moving on
[16:22] <hallyn_> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
[16:23] <hallyn_> hggdh: hi again
[16:25] <hallyn_> moving on,
[16:25] <hallyn_> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
[16:25] <hallyn_> smb is not around
[16:25] <Daviey> hallyn_: Just adding to the development section - things look good.. but we need more, more testing.
[16:26] <hallyn_> Daviey: after thursday, final freeze is over?  no more changes at all?
[16:26] <hallyn_> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
[16:26] <hallyn_> NCommander is not around
[16:26] <hallyn_> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
[16:27] <hallyn_> hi, anything to bring up?
[16:27] <Daviey> hallyn_: I don't think after RC (Thursday) there will be no changes.. but there will be limited changes.
[16:28] <lynxman> my only concern on that side is puppet, but spoke with Daviey already about it
[16:28] <Daviey> Note that things we care about in Universe can still be fixed upto 36 hours befoere release.
[16:28] <hallyn_> Daviey: phew
[16:28] <Daviey> before*
[16:28] <hallyn_> i assume low priority bugs should wait for an SRU
[16:28] <hallyn_> (thinkgs like 'command_names=1' in /etc/lvm.conf)
[16:29] <hallyn_> #topic Open Discussion
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
[16:30] <lynxman> Just as a question, are we finally shipping keystone in Oneiric?
[16:31] <Daviey> lynxman: we always have been, but it's not in main or integrated by default.
[16:31] <Daviey> NFI if it works. :)
[16:31] <lynxman> Daviey: it doesn't (at least not much)
[16:31] <Daviey> lynxman: What bugs have you raised with the issues you had?
[16:32] <lynxman> Daviey: we raised bugs directly with upstream, keystone mysql integration with innodb is broken due to bad schema definitions
[16:32] <lynxman> Daviey: also another bug raised with upstream about sqlite3 code
[16:33] <Daviey> lynxman: we really need Ubuntu tasks on the bugs if they are going to be fixed in Ubuntu.
[16:33] <Daviey> lynxman: If you are able, and willing to help address these issues for Oneiric - that would rock. my. world.
[16:33] <lynxman> Daviey: yeah noted, but this one affected upstream directly :)
[16:33] <lynxman> Daviey: it's too broken for oneiric I'm afraid :/ ttx is pushing for a diablo keystone version "coming soon"
[16:34] <lynxman> Daviey: we had lots of issues with it last week and we finally abandoned implementation for the moment
[16:34] <Daviey> The keystone honcho and ttx are here this week, i'll grab them for gudance.
[16:34] <Daviey> [ACTION]
[16:34] <meetingology`> ACTION:
[16:35] <hallyn_> #action Daviey to talk to ttx and keystone honcho for guidance about oneiric package
[16:35] <meetingology`> ACTION: Daviey to talk to ttx and keystone honcho for guidance about oneiric package
[16:35] <hallyn_> any one else have some actions for Daviey ?
[16:35]  * hallyn_ looks over at his dirty car
[16:35] <hallyn_> then it only remains to,
[16:36] <hallyn_> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
[16:36] <hallyn_> Next Tuesday, October 11 at 16:00 UTC
[16:36] <hallyn_> thanks, all
[16:36] <hallyn_> #endmeeting
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
[16:36] <meetingology`> Meeting ended Tue Oct  4 16:36:18 2011 UTC.
[16:36] <meetingology`> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-04-16.09.moin.txt
[16:36] <Daviey> thanks hallyn_
[17:00] <bjf> #startmeeting
[17:00] <meetingology`> Meeting started Tue Oct  4 17:00:07 2011 UTC.  The chair is bjf. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
[17:00] <meetingology`> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[17:00] <bjf> ##
[17:00] <bjf> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
[17:00] <bjf> ##
[17:00] <bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[17:00] <bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
[17:00] <jjohansen> \o
[17:00] <smb> \o
[17:00] <bjf> # Meeting Etiquette
[17:00] <bjf> #
[17:00] <bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
[17:00] <bjf> #       'o/' indicates you have something you'd like to add (wait until you are recognized)
[17:00] <bjf> #
[17:00] <bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
[17:00] <ppisati> Stable arm kernels: a new natty/omap4 kernel is out.
[17:00] <ppisati> Oneiric/ti-omap4: a new TI code drop has landed - omap 4460 support, dkms cross
[17:00] <ppisati> compilation, a couple of drm reverts for the upcoming gfx driver and various
[17:00] <ppisati> fixes. This pretty much represents the omap4 kernel Oneiric will ship with.
[17:00] <ppisati> ..
[17:00] <bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
[17:00] <ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
[17:00] <ogasawara> ==== oneiric nominated bugs ====
[17:00] <ogasawara>  * 40 linux kernel bugs (up 20)
[17:00] <ogasawara> ==== Ubuntu ubuntu-11.10 bugs ====
[17:00] <ogasawara>  * 1 linux kernel bugs (up 1)
[17:01] <ogasawara> ==== <series>-updates bugs ====
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 5 oneiric linux kernel bugs (up 5)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 13 natty linux kernel bugs (down 2)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 3 maverick linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 7 lucid linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 0 hardy linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara> === Incoming Bugs ===
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 308 oneiric bugs (up 53)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 1663 natty bugs (up 20)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 1108 maverick bugs (up 1)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 992 lucid bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 46 hardy bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara> === Regressions ===
[17:01] <ogasawara> ==== regression-update bugs ====
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 17 natty bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 40 maverick bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 75 lucid bugs (down 1)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara> ==== regression-release bugs ====
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 8 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 431 natty bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 237 maverick bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 209 lucid bugs (up 1)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 2 hardy bugs (no change 0)
[17:01] <ogasawara> ==== regression-proposed bugs ====
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 1 oneiric bugs (up 1)
[17:01] <ogasawara>  * 4 natty bugs (no change 0)
[17:02] <ogasawara>  * 0 maverick bugs (no change 0)
[17:02] <ogasawara>  * 3 lucid bugs (up 1)
[17:02] <ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
[17:02] <ogasawara> ..
[17:02] <bjf> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items
[17:02] <bjf> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/milestones.html
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items
[17:02] <ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-11.10.html
[17:02] <ogasawara> || apw       || desktop-o-xorg-stakeholders-request || 1 work item ||
[17:02] <ogasawara> ||           || other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review  || 1 work item ||
[17:02] <ogasawara> If your name is in the table above, please review your final Oneiric work items.
[17:02] <ogasawara> ..
[17:02] <bjf> [TOPIC] Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
[17:02] <ogasawara> We remain at the 3.0.0-12.19 kernel and are queuing misc bug fixes at this time.  These queued fixes are not release critical and will be available in the first Oneiric SRU.  Also, upstream stable v3.0.5 and v3.0.6 were just released.  We are currently in the process of reviwing and pulling these patches.
[17:02] <ogasawara> Some important upcoming dates are as follows:
[17:02] <ogasawara>  *  Oct  6 - Release Candidate (2 days)
[17:02] <ogasawara>  *  Oct 13 - Final Release (~1 week)
[17:03] <ogasawara> I would also like to note that the P-series git repo has been rebased to v3.1-rc8 and is available at git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-p.git master-next .
[17:03] <ogasawara> ..
[17:03] <bjf> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
[17:03] <apw> === CVE Metrics ===
[17:03] <apw>  
[17:03] <apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
[17:03] <apw>  
[17:03] <apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
[17:03] <apw>  
[17:03] <apw> || Package                                  || Open      || No Fix ||
[17:03] <apw> ||                                          ||           ||        ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux Hardy                              ||    7 (+2) ||     5  ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux Lucid                              ||    4 (+2) ||     2  ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux Maverick                           ||    5 (+3) ||     2  ||
[17:03] <apw> || linux Natty                              ||    4 (+2) ||     2  ||
[17:04] <apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||    3 (+1) ||     2  ||
[17:04] <apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||    4 (+2) ||     2  ||
[17:04] <apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||    5 (+3) ||     2  ||
[17:04] <apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||    4 (+2) ||     2  ||
[17:04] <apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||    4 (+2) ||     2  ||
[17:04] <apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||    5 (+3) ||     2  ||
[17:04] <apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||    5 (+3) ||     2  ||
[17:04] <apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    3 (+1) ||     2  ||
[17:04] <apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||    5 (+3) ||     2  ||
[17:04] <apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||    4 (+2) ||     2  ||
[17:04] <apw>  
[17:04] <apw> Three additional CVEs were added this week, one is fixed and out for review and the other two are being prepared currently.  We continue to have 2 CVEs without fix across the board.
[17:04] <apw> ..
[17:04] <bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)
[17:04] <sconklin> ||== Status of kernels ==
[17:04] <sconklin> ||
[17:04] <sconklin> || In general, updates have been less frequent and smaller, due to the kernel.org
[17:04] <sconklin> || problems. This is pretty much resolved upstream, and I expect that the number of
[17:04] <sconklin> || patches being applied in stable updates will increase sharply in the next few
[17:04] <sconklin> || cycles.
[17:04] <sconklin> ||
[17:04] <sconklin> || SRU kernel status:
[17:04] <sconklin> || * [[http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html|Kernel SRU Workflow Status]]
[17:04] <sconklin> || * [[http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html|Detailed Information Here]]
[17:04] <sconklin> ||
[17:04] <sconklin> || Kernel status for each series is as follows:
[17:04] <sconklin> ||
[17:05] <sconklin> ||=== Hardy ===
[17:05] <sconklin> || * Released
[17:05] <sconklin> ||
[17:05] <sconklin> ||=== Lucid ===
[17:05] <sconklin> || * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/862556|Lucid Tracking Bug]]
[17:05] <ubottu> Ubuntu bug 862556 in linux-lts-backport-natty (Ubuntu) "linux-lts-backport-natty: 2.6.38-12.51~lucid1 -proposed tracker" [Medium,In progress]
[17:05] <sconklin> || * In Verification
[17:05] <sconklin> ||
[17:05] <sconklin> ||=== Maverick ===
[17:05] <sconklin> || * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/854092|Maverick Tracking Bug]]
[17:05] <ubottu> Ubuntu bug 854092 in Kernel SRU Workflow certification-testing "linux: 2.6.35-30.60 -proposed tracker" [Undecided,In progress]
[17:05] <sconklin> || * In testing Phase. Undergoing regression testing, needs Certification testing
[17:05] <sconklin> ||
[17:05] <sconklin> ||=== Natty ===
[17:05] <sconklin> || * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/860832|Natty Tracking Bug]]
[17:05] <ubottu> Ubuntu bug 860832 in Kernel SRU Workflow verification-testing "linux: 2.6.38-12.51 -proposed tracker" [Undecided,In progress]
[17:05] <sconklin> || * In Verification
[17:05] <sconklin> ||
[17:05] <sconklin> || Current Kernel versions are available here: http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/versions.html
[17:05] <sconklin> ||
[17:05] <sconklin> ..
[17:05] <bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
[17:06] <bjf> welcome aboard jsalisbury
[17:06] <jsalisbury> o/
[17:06] <bjf> thanks everyone
[17:06] <bjf> #endmeeting
=== meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
[17:06] <meetingology`> Meeting ended Tue Oct  4 17:06:16 2011 UTC.
[17:06] <meetingology`> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-10-04-17.00.moin.txt
[17:06] <sconklin> thanks bjf
[17:06] <apw> bjf, ta
[17:06] <kamal> thanks bjf
=== Quintasan_ is now known as Quintasan
[18:57] <czajkowski> highvoltage: surely meeting is an hour ?
[19:00] <highvoltage> czajkowski: indeed.
[19:02] <czajkowski> highvoltage: lets not scare me and make me run around london shall we. just for that you can chair!
[19:02] <highvoltage> most of us can do with a bit more running around :p
[19:02]  * highvoltage runs
[19:03] <highvoltage> (I accept my punishment)
[19:04] <czajkowski> highvoltage: not when I just finished work navigated the tube and house hunted , you're the chair :)
[19:18] <highvoltage> chair on the day there's only one applicant... score!
[19:21] <stgraber> highvoltage: where did you run to? I haven't seen you running :)
[19:34] <highvoltage> stgraber: that's because I was so fast!
[19:56] <highvoltage> are we ready for the EMEA meeting?
[19:57] <czajkowski> o/
[19:57] <stgraber> I'll probably be in 3 minutes
[19:57] <highvoltage> ok. in the meantime, Thomas_de_Graaff are you present?
[19:57] <Thomas_de_Graaff> o/
[19:57] <highvoltage> great
[19:57] <highvoltage> we'll start in just a bit
[19:58] <Thomas_de_Graaff> ok
[19:58] <highvoltage> ogra_, drubin: are you present?
[19:58] <drubin> ohia
[19:59] <highvoltage> great.
[19:59] <highvoltage> welcome to the EMEA RMB meeting for October
[20:00] <highvoltage> * Note: only EMEA RMB members can vote on applicants
[20:00] <highvoltage> Thomas_de_Graaff: would you like to introduce yourself?
[20:00] <drubin> highvoltage: the bot has a function to limit voters
[20:00] <Thomas_de_Graaff> Ok
[20:00] <popey> we not using the bot?
[20:00] <Thomas_de_Graaff> I'm a Ubuntu user for some years now, and became active in the community, mainly in promotion activities.
[20:01] <Thomas_de_Graaff> More info can be found on the wiki:
[20:01] <Thomas_de_Graaff> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThomasDeGraaff
[20:02] <highvoltage> any questions for Thomas_de_Graaff?
[20:03] <czajkowski> nope
[20:03] <highvoltage> Thomas_de_Graaff: how do you feel about the NL loco currently? are you happy with it? is there anything you would like to change?
[20:03] <popey> Thomas_de_Graaff: what do you do to recruit new members to the team?
[20:04] <Thomas_de_Graaff> I am quite happy. If there is one thing I would like to see, it is a lot more active participants, volunteers.
[20:05] <Thomas_de_Graaff> I do not really actively recruit team members. Mostly we just start organizing something, showing ideas, and people join the effort.
[20:05] <highvoltage> Any final questions or word before we continue?
[20:05] <popey> Thomas_de_Graaff: where are the team most active?
[20:05] <popey> irc, mailing lists, forums?
[20:06] <Thomas_de_Graaff> As a team we mostly use the forum for communication. This is because this medium is quite popular in our loco.
[20:06] <Thomas_de_Graaff> We are founding a legal organization to support promotion activities, there we use a mailing list.
[20:07] <popey> is that so you can take donations?
[20:07] <highvoltage> What kind of legal organization?
[20:07] <Thomas_de_Graaff> It's a non profit organization. This has to do with being able to receive donations, to get a bank account, to be able to arrange insurance for volunteers when needed etc.
[20:08] <Thomas_de_Graaff> For sponsors it is really nice if we have a non profit organization, this has to do with tax regulations.
[20:08] <Thomas_de_Graaff> To pay our bills we need a bank account.
[20:09] <popey> I'd be interested to see your experience documented
[20:09] <popey> many teams consider this an important task
[20:09] <popey> and I think they could learn from your experience
[20:09] <popey> (even though regulatory differences will be in different countries / territories of course)
[20:09] <highvoltage> I'm quite surprised to hear this to be honest.
[20:09] <highvoltage> popey: what other teams have done this?
[20:09] <popey> France AIUI
[20:09] <popey> Belgium?
[20:10] <leoquant> germany
[20:10] <popey> it's certainly a hot topic for many locos
[20:10] <RawChid> Belgium yes
[20:10] <popey> I have no further questions thanks Thomas_de_Graaff
[20:10] <Thomas_de_Graaff> ok
[20:10] <highvoltage> I'm also very interested since it's often considered a very, very bad idea to do that. So it would be nice to have some real-life stories from those teams about it.
[20:11] <popey> yeah
[20:11] <popey> btw anyone here to cheer for Thomas_de_Graaff ?
[20:11]  * popey expects leoquant is?
[20:11] <leoquant> yep !
[20:11] <commandoline> \o/
[20:11] <Ronnie> o/
[20:11] <RawChid> .o/ !
[20:11] <highvoltage> cheerleaders, cheer now or forever keep your peace!
[20:11] <leoquant> \o/
[20:11] <popey> excellent!
[20:11] <gijsbert> +1
[20:11] <Thomas_de_Graaff> Thx. guys. :D
[20:11] <ertai_NL> +1
[20:11] <asfyxia> \o/\
[20:12] <highvoltage> Ok, time to vote, if you're not highvoltage, popey, drubin, ogra_, stgraber or czajkowski, then please don't vote!
[20:12]  * popey checks he's on that list
[20:12] <highvoltage> VOTE: Thomas_de_Graaff for Ubuntu membership
[20:12] <popey> +1
[20:13] <iulian> I'm not on that list. Oups.
[20:13] <czajkowski> +1
[20:13] <stgraber> +1
[20:13] <highvoltage> iulian: ah, I didn't realise you're here, go ahead please :)
[20:13] <popey> Keep up the great work, and I expect blog posts on planet ubuntu about your team! :D
[20:13] <drubin> +1
[20:13] <iulian> highvoltage: Sure. :)
[20:13] <iulian> +1
[20:13] <highvoltage> +1 [ great loco involvement ]
[20:13] <popey> thats 5 of 7
[20:13] <highvoltage> I don't think ogra_ is here
[20:14] <popey> or 6 of 7
[20:14] <iulian> Where's the bot?
[20:14] <popey> if you count it correctly
[20:14] <Thomas_de_Graaff> So I passed?
[20:14] <highvoltage> yes
[20:14] <leoquant> great! congrats Thomas_de_Graaff
[20:14] <Thomas_de_Graaff> :D
[20:14] <highvoltage> Thomas_de_Graaff: congratulations and welcome!
[20:14] <Thomas_de_Graaff> Thx.
[20:14] <popey> yay!
[20:14] <gijsbert> Oke Thomas
[20:14] <asfyxia> congratz Thomas
[20:14] <popey> congrats, keep up the great work in .nl!
[20:14] <RawChid> Congratz Thomas_de_Graaff
[20:14] <highvoltage> iulian: sorry next time I'll take a few minutes before to learn how the new bot works
[20:14] <drubin> congrats
[20:15] <Ronnie> congrats Thomas_de_Graaff
[20:15] <Thomas_de_Graaff> Thx. heren!
[20:15] <highvoltage> popey: are you doing the usual launchpad driving?
[20:15] <popey> ya
[20:15] <highvoltage> great
[20:15] <popey> added thomasdegraaff to ~ubuntumembers
[20:16] <ertai_NL> Thomas_de_Graaff: congrats
[20:16] <highvoltage> Thomas_de_Graaff: if you have any questions feel free to contact any of us, usually it takes around a day before your @ubuntu.com email address will kick in
[20:16] <highvoltage> anything else before we adjourne?
[20:17] <popey> This will be my last meeting I suspect
[20:17] <JanC> to be clear: ubuntu-be is NOT a legal entity right now (we don't need it to have a bank account)
[20:17] <popey> So just wanted to say it's been great fun, and keep up the great work!
[20:17] <highvoltage> popey: wow, thanks for your work and contributions, you will be missed
[20:17] <popey> Thank you.
[20:18] <highvoltage> JanC: yeah I believe you can have a bank account for 'clubs' in most countries. is that what you did?
[20:18] <ertai_NL> JanC: I also thougth that..
[20:18] <JanC> highvoltage: something like that, yes
[20:19] <highvoltage> well, I think that's it for this meeting, meeting adjourned! Thanks to everyone for attending! Next EMEA RMB meeting is on 2 November 2011 at the same time.
[20:19] <JanC> they call it a "factual association" or something like that
[20:19] <iulian> popey: I didn't have time to reply to that email but all I wanted to say is that you've done a brilliant job in both teams and you'll surely be missed!
[20:19] <iulian> So thanks for that.
[20:20] <drubin> Isthe meeting oveR?
[20:20]  * drubin has a truck load of work he would like to get done before bed
[20:20] <highvoltage> drubin: it is indeed.
[20:20] <drubin> thanks highvoltage for chairing and popey for driving the bo
[20:21] <drubin> launchpad*
[20:23] <JanC> with "factual" <-> "registered" ☺
[20:25] <ogra_> sorry, i missed it, i'm actually +1 for Thomas_de_Graaff
[20:25] <ogra_> (checked the wiki this afternoon already)
[20:26] <highvoltage> Thomas_de_Graaff: ^^^ for what it's worth :)
[20:26] <ogra_> heh
[20:27]  * popey hugs ogra_ 
[20:27] <ogra_> hey :)
[20:28] <pleia2> highvoltage: include ubuntu-news-team on the mail too please so we can publish it in UWN :)
[20:29] <pleia2> (a forward is fine)
[20:30] <highvoltage> done. thanks :)
[20:30]  * popey gets that mail again 
[20:30] <popey> :D
[20:32] <highvoltage> oh crap I sent it to ubuntu-news and not to ubuntu-news-team
[20:32] <highvoltage> I'm sure someone will reject it at least... sending to the right one now
[20:32] <highvoltage> popey: prepare to receive it again!
[20:33] <pleia2> thank you :)
[20:56] <juancarlospaco> hi guys, gals, and bots
[20:59] <unimix> hey, juancarlospaco ! Nice to see you here :)
[21:00] <pleia2> hi everyone
[21:00] <juancarlospaco> hello unimix, nice to see you too :)
[21:00] <juancarlospaco> hello Princess
[21:00] <juancarlospaco> Leia
[21:00] <popey> hello
[21:00] <pleia2> We don't have anything on the agenda for this Community Council meeting so I figured we could just do a couple announcements :)
[21:00] <popey> ☺
[21:01] <popey> ^ that smiley is huge in the ubuntu font
[21:01] <pleia2> nominations for the new CC closed on Thursday, so sabdfl is looking over them and hopefully will release the poll to ubuntu members soon
[21:01] <pleia2> hehe
[21:01] <popey> excellent.
[21:01] <juancarlospaco> cool
[21:02] <technoviking> hello
[21:02] <juancarlospaco> nothing is the Agenda for now ...?
[21:02] <pleia2> popey put out a call on Wednesday for more ubuntu users moderators: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2011-September/251850.html
[21:02] <pleia2> so the CC is working on reviewing those too
[21:02] <juancarlospaco> 0_o
[21:02] <juancarlospaco> oh...
[21:02] <popey> now, about that
[21:02] <popey> should the cc discuss first then send to the list?
[21:02] <popey> or what? I am not sure what process to follow here
[21:03] <pleia2> oops, this is the actual announcement: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2011-September/251713.html
[21:03] <pleia2> (the other link is clarification)
[21:03] <pleia2> popey: not sure
[21:04] <popey> I'll post the list we have so far to the cc list and ask for help :D
[21:04] <pleia2> thanks :)
[21:04] <popey> glad we've had plenty of volunteers
[21:04] <popey> sad that it decends into the usual crapfest ☹
[21:04] <pleia2> yeah :|
[21:05] <pleia2> that's all I had announcement-wise
[21:05] <popey> ok, I have a discussion point for you
[21:06] <popey> my perception may be way off the mark here, so do let me know
[21:06] <popey> I've noticed some lack of enthusiasm in much of the ubuntu leadership lately
[21:06] <popey> (myself included)
[21:06] <pleia2> yeah, we've been having trouble keeping boards and councils staffed
[21:06] <pleia2> and those staffing them, active
[21:06] <popey> now perhaps some of this is natural churn
[21:07] <popey> perhaps some is people getting "burned out" (c) jono bacon
[21:07] <popey> i dont think it's either of those though
[21:07] <popey> but I can't put my finger on what it is
[21:07] <popey> are we not doing enough to develop new people into leadership roles perhaps?
[21:07] <pleia2> it felt like to me we lost a number of key people in the natty cycle, and in every case I saw it coming
[21:07] <popey> are people just sick of working with the same people for the last 6 years?
[21:08] <pleia2> good question
[21:08] <popey> I can see that we have a lot of the same people around the community
[21:08] <popey> which in some ways is great of course :D
[21:09] <popey> but you know what it's like, working day in day out with the same people
[21:09] <popey> you can become tired of it
[21:09] <pleia2> I think part of it is also the growth of the project, back when we got involved it wasn't *that* intimidating to go for a leadership position
[21:09] <juancarlospaco> interesting readings here . . .
[21:10]  * beuno waves
[21:10] <pleia2> or feel like you could speak up at any time
[21:10] <pleia2> hey beuno :)
[21:10] <beuno> personally, I think part of it is that there seems to be less of a chance to influenve where Ubuntu is going, from the community
[21:10] <beuno> which would discourage people from getting too involved
[21:10] <popey> that too
[21:11] <pleia2> yeah
[21:11] <popey> why should I bother speaking up, canonical ignore me anyway?
[21:11] <popey> that kind of thing?
[21:11] <beuno> so the first place that would suffer due to that is leadership
[21:11] <beuno> yeah
[21:12] <popey> i think that's certainly got better recently, at least at the very top
[21:12] <beuno> yeah, I think communication got better
[21:12] <popey> the cc has had conf calls to discuss issues
[21:12] <pleia2> and jono's community team has put a lot of work into making the community feel encouraged to participate in the direction of Unity
[21:12] <popey> mark has taken on board comments from the cc about issues relating to to (for example) canonical<->community communication, and the ubuntu <-> gnome relationship.
[21:13] <popey> yes, unity is quite a success in that regard ;)
[21:13] <beuno> so I think we may need to find in which places leadership is most useful
[21:13] <popey> looks to me on the surface like the development stuff seems to mostly "work", the DMB, tech board etc, that side of things seems "okay"?
[21:14] <popey> it's more the community governance
[21:14] <pleia2> yeah
[21:14] <popey> It seems to me that jono has been a bit more distant from "us" this last year
[21:14] <pleia2> agreed
[21:14] <popey> perhaps because he's had to take on other stuff
[21:14] <jono> popey, in what way?
[21:14] <popey> well, in the past we "saw" you a lot
[21:14] <popey> you participated a lot on mailing list threads, on irc
[21:15] <jono> in what context? meetings, IRC?
[21:15] <pleia2> jono: your team has been very focused on getting new developers and working on development workflows, less with locos and other community teams
[21:15] <popey> now, I mostly see you telling your team to get on skype/G+
[21:15] <popey> of course there's the videos, blog posts and stuff which still happen
[21:15] <popey> but your role seems (from my perspective) to have changed quite a bit in the last year
[21:15] <jono> I think I have spend less time on #ubuntu-community-team
[21:15] <jono> primarily due to being busy with other work
[21:15] <jono> popey, how has it changed?
[21:16] <popey> less visibility, less involvement in community
[21:16] <popey> sure we now have governance structures which are mostly semi-autonomous
[21:16] <jono> popey, well I think I have been as equally involved, I am just not doing it all in that IRC channel
[21:16] <popey> so the jono-blocking-factor is taken out of the equation
[21:16] <jono> much of it has been on calls and elsewhere
[21:16] <popey> Hmmm.
[21:16] <jono> e.g. I spent a lot of time with the loco leadership around l.u.c
[21:16] <popey> I'm not artiulating this quite the way I mean.
[21:17] <jono> popey, what is the concern you have?
[21:17] <popey> well, it's not specifically #ubuntu-community-team, and the amount of keyboard to irc time you spend
[21:17] <beuno> so, I think we may need to find and articulate a better sense of purpose for the Ubuntu community
[21:17] <jono> popey, right, but I am not sure if IRC time is the primary indicator of community involvement
[21:17] <jono> it is not the best metric
[21:17] <jono> it is a metric though
[21:18] <popey> thats my point
[21:18] <popey> or rather that's specifically _not_ my point
[21:18] <popey> I am _not_ saying your irc time is a measure
[21:18] <popey> thats exactly what I'm not saying
[21:18] <popey> it's in general
[21:18] <popey> I see less mail from you, less involvement from you
[21:18] <popey> I hope this isnt coming across as a personal sleight, it's not meant that way
[21:19] <jono> well I have been less involved in mailing lists, but I have had a lot more private and team-related mail
[21:19] <popey> it was merely an observation that the community and canonical are changing
[21:19] <pleia2> I guess it's because the involvement has gone to less asyncronous mediums like calls and g+ type things?
[21:19] <popey> thats partly it, it's less visible to "us"
[21:19] <jono> I am not denying my role has changed more as my team has grown
[21:19] <jono> it is less about Jono who organizes much of the community and instead the guys to who do much of that work in their respective parts
[21:19] <juancarlospaco> No more CD Ship-it, Android Tablets getting popular over Netbooks, Ubuntu in general its becoming very very easy to use and generates less community orientation requests, and such things...
[21:19] <juancarlospaco> :P
[21:20] <jono> much of my role is assessing the needs of stakeholders and ensuring the team is happy and delivering
[21:20] <jono> so what is the primary concern behind this discussion?
[21:20] <popey> ok, perhaps we're moving away from the point
[21:20] <jono> is it the position of the community, leadership lethargy, or Canonical's involvement?
[21:20] <popey> this wasn't my original point :D
[21:21] <popey> i think there is certainly leadership lethargy
[21:21] <IdleOne> jono I think the feeling is that you don't come out and play as often as you used to :)
[21:21] <popey> and a lack of new blood being brought up
[21:21] <popey> we seem to be fighting to find people to staff boards and councils
[21:21] <jono> popey, leadership new blood
[21:21] <popey> it's quite a struggle
[21:21] <jono> IdleOne, I don't get as much to chit-chat, that's for sure, because my work is much more compressed than it was
[21:21] <popey> some leadership, some potential leadership
[21:21] <pleia2> yeah, last time we restaffed the CC the list of nominees was huge, mark had to reduce the list to a managable amount for the vote
[21:22] <jono> popey, so do you feel leadership is not feeling energized in the project?
[21:22] <pleia2> we're nowhere near that this time, and frequently staffing other boards requires multiple calls, and manual work (directly asking people to apply)
[21:22] <popey> yes
[21:22] <jono> popey, and this is a tough question, but is that the leadership is not feeling energized, or you specifically are not?
[21:22] <popey> I think it's slipped over the last 12-18 months
[21:22] <popey> it's an observation of a few people/teams
[21:23] <jono> popey, do you have any specific examples?
[21:23] <popey> asia board, irc council...
[21:23] <jono> and what are the issues there?
[21:23] <popey> asia board becoming quorate has been painful
[21:23] <popey> repeated missed meetings
[21:23] <jono> right
[21:23] <pleia2> I spent months getting asias back on track
[21:23] <popey> irc council has also missed meetings
[21:24] <jono> why do you feel those issues are happening?
[21:24] <popey> 22:06:54 < popey> now perhaps some of this is natural churn
[21:24] <popey> 22:07:07 < popey> perhaps some is people getting "burned out" (c) jono bacon
[21:24] <popey> 22:07:15 < popey> i dont think it's either of those though
[21:24] <popey> ^^^^ that
[21:24] <popey> 22:07:21 < popey> but I can't put my finger on what it is
[21:24] <jono> you said you didnt it was those though :P
[21:24] <jono> so do you think it is churn and burnout?
[21:24] <popey> yeah, was copy/pasting for context
[21:25] <jono> right, no you think those are the primary issues?
[21:25] <jono> s/no/so
[21:25] <popey> i think if left unchecked we'll have an even harder time staffing boards in 6 months / 12 months
[21:25] <jono> ok, so lets drill into the causes and think of some solutions
[21:25] <popey> as I said to pleia2 earlier, perhaps people are just sick of working with the same people for 6 years?
[21:26] <jono> it strikes me that the issue is leaders not feeling a sense of drive for leadership
[21:26] <jono> not feeling inspired to lead
[21:26] <jono> so it then feels mechanical
[21:26] <jono> and maybe we can improve that
[21:26] <beuno> yeah, as I said before, i think the changes in the project have taken away some of the sense of purpose
[21:26] <rww> this ^
[21:26] <popey> yes, as beuno mentioned earlier, community people feel "out of the loop"
[21:26] <jono> I think redefining the importance of our leadership could be valuable
[21:26] <granjero> supporting #ubuntu-ar
[21:26] <rww> Have been sitting trying to write something, but beuno did it shorter and better :)
[21:27] <jono> well, feeling out of the loop is one thing, feeling motivated is another
[21:27] <jono> both have problems and solutions
[21:27] <Pendulum> Well, I think when people don't feel in the loop, it's harder for them to feel motivated
[21:27] <popey> exactly
[21:27] <jono> they are definitely connected
[21:27] <popey> feeling like what you do/say doesn't actually matter
[21:27] <IdleOne> ^
[21:27] <popey> feeling more like a tiny tiny cog
[21:28] <jono> so you think some leadership folks don't feel they have an impact on the project?
[21:28] <popey> yes
[21:28] <popey> very much so
[21:28] <jono> ok
[21:28] <popey> I certainly do.
[21:28] <nhaines> I agree with beuno.  As a community advocate, the harder it is to know what decisions are being made, the harder it is for me to go out and tell people about them.
[21:28] <jono> so what kind of impact?
[21:28] <nhaines> And even worse, it's more and more difficult to know where decisions are being made so I can be a part of those decisions.
[21:28] <popey> the kind of impact that makes doing what you do in your own time worthwhile
[21:28] <jono> well I think we can divide this into two areas:
[21:29] <popey> coders create code that people run, that's intrinsicly worthwhile
[21:29] <jono>  * Decision Making - who makes decisions for the strategic direction of Ubuntu.
[21:29] <popey> approving a new member can be worthwhile when you see the work they do
[21:29] <jono>  * Ability To Participate - feeling you have the opportunity to bring value to Ubuntu
[21:29] <jono> it sounds like popey is referring to seeing the value of your contributions
[21:29] <jono> and the impact it has on others
[21:30] <popey> yes, but take a look at the ircc for example, where they try to keep order and ensure timely, reliable, efficient, accurate support and help in our channels.
[21:30] <popey> that can be very demanding
[21:30] <jono> right
[21:31] <popey> as can moderating mailing lists :D
[21:31] <jono> so how do you feel we could reward their efforts and make them feel like they bring value?
[21:31] <jono> I agree with the problem, but I think we need to think of solutions for each board as they differe
[21:31] <jono> differ
[21:31] <popey> sure
[21:31] <popey> But I believe it's a widespread problem
[21:31] <jono> I think part of the challenge here is that leadership in Ubuntu is often a thankless task
[21:31] <Pendulum> I don't think it's specific to the boards, either
[21:31] <popey> not something that affects just one individual or board
[21:31] <jono> popey, agreed, but the solutions are specific to the domain
[21:32] <popey> indeed
[21:32] <jono> so it sounds like the problem we have is how we make leaders feel accomplished in their work
[21:32] <jono> in work that is traditionally pretty thankless
[21:32] <pleia2> yeah, I don't know how we do that
[21:32] <jono> and we have some specific boards who need more support than others
[21:32]  * popey pins a gold star on pleia2's chest
[21:33] <jono> I certainly don't want to pin the responsibility on the CC, but with many boards reporting to the CC and TB, I think it would be great to see more inspirational leadership from the CC and TB
[21:33] <popey> Yup, I agree.
[21:34] <jono> this way if the CC and TB feel good about their works and that value, it could cascade down
[21:34] <jono> maybe it would help if I have a regular call with the CC
[21:34] <pleia2> fwiw, half the CC is not standing for re-appointment
[21:34] <jono> and we can discuss these kinds of topics
[21:34] <jono> pleia2, right
[21:34] <rww> "how we make leaders feel accomplished in their work" --> I'd say Ubuntu contributors in general rather than leaders, personally. The burnout's in the ranks, not just the leadership.
[21:34] <popey> that says a lot
[21:34] <jono> rww, agreed, but we need to start somewhere
[21:34] <rww> and there are contributors not going for leadership because they're burned out
[21:34] <popey> half the cc is stepping down.
[21:34] <rww> jono: indeed
[21:35] <pleia2> so this problem goes all the way to the top, and it's hard for the CC to fix it when half the CC is impacted themselves (or otherwise moving away)
[21:35] <jono> pleia2, agreed
[21:35] <jono> so what can we do?
[21:35] <rww> (which exascerbates the problem because less leaders = more work on the current leaders, and people end up leading multiple teams and burning out faster... but yeah, got to start somewhere)
[21:35] <jono> do you folks have any ideas for solutions?
[21:35] <jono> I totally agree with the problem
[21:35] <popey> ok, good
[21:35] <popey> I'm glad we're on the same page jono
[21:35] <pleia2> I think we ask people how they feel and what they think will motivate them
[21:35] <jono> popey, yup
[21:36] <popey> i had a chat with dholbach about this earlier
[21:36] <popey> he suggested talking to people who depart a while after to find out what specific issues there were
[21:36] <popey> of course thats too late
[21:36] <beuno> so maybe we could figure out some tangible goals for the community, ones the we all care about
[21:36] <jono> I think one thing we need to be clear on, and going back to our previous discussion, is that just because I am not on IRC or chit-chatty as much, it doesn't mean that I or Canonical care less about the community
[21:36] <popey> but if people have already put their mind to leaving, there's not a whole lot you can do
[21:36] <popey> jono: just to be clear, that wasnt my point
[21:36] <jono> I have always noticed that some people base their level of interaction with me as an indicator of Canonical interest in community
[21:36] <jono> popey, I know, but this is a wider point
[21:37] <popey> my point was more that it's pretty obvious from the external-to-canonical perspective that your job has changed
[21:37] <jono> and maybe I need to clarify this more than when I started it was just me and now I manage five people, so this changes the nature of the role
[21:37] <jono> yup
[21:37] <Pendulum> I think from a general community point of view, there's a current feeling that there is more coming out from Canonical to the community than there is going back in _especially_ from the bits of the community that aren't coding
[21:37] <popey> however, I too would like to find solutions to this
[21:38] <Pendulum> and by "out" I mean in terms of communication, not content
[21:38] <jono> Pendulum, what do you feel is the reason for that perspective?
[21:38] <jono> my hunch is that we need to solve the problem from the top down - get the CC and TB motivation and inspirational to the community and then that will have more of a trickle down effect
[21:39] <jono> we need to fix the CC and TB issues before we can truly solve the other teams
[21:39] <popey> I agree, however I think you're somewhat underestimating your role in this
[21:39] <popey> you are Community Manager.
[21:39] <pleia2> a recent example is the countdown banners, canonical needed to be poked to start the competition for countdown banners, the deadline was very late, and they *still* haven't released them, even though they said they would last week
[21:39] <popey> (sorry to labour the point)
[21:39] <jono> popey, I agree, and as I said earlier, I think I need to have regular discussions with the CC and TB
[21:39] <pleia2> so community members who worked on these are feeling a bit put out, people who need them for their sites are too
[21:39] <jono> but I can't personally go and solve our leadership problems
[21:39] <jono> I don't have the bandwidth
[21:40] <jono> pleia2, good example
[21:40] <beuno> I also think that we need to solve this within the community
[21:40] <beuno> within the current councils, particularly the CC, I guess
[21:40] <popey> well the vote will soon be underway to elect a new cc
[21:41] <popey> and with 50% not standing for re-election there _will_ be "new blood" on the cc
[21:41] <jono> popey, I am not taking myself out of the mix here, but I think we do need to empower the CC and TB to lead more
[21:41] <jono> if it was just me, everything would block on me
[21:41]  * beuno agrees
[21:41] <popey> sure
[21:41] <Pendulum> I was also thinking on the matter of you have 5 people on your team under you, but none of them (as far as I can tell) deals specifically with general community, instead they're specialised. You are now more manager than direct contact (which is fine and makes sense), but it leaves teams that aren't translations, devel, cloud, QA, or upstream out of the loop
[21:42] <jono> Pendulum, sure, but that's just the nature of the beast
[21:42] <pleia2> jono: well, you used to be the one who filled in the gaps
[21:42] <jono> we are not going to be able to invest in a general community manager
[21:42] <jono> pleia2, right, and I think that I am still doing that to a degree, I just have less time than I did
[21:42] <jono> due to managing the team
[21:43]  * pleia2 nods
[21:43] <Pendulum> Right, but considering a good number of the people who do go for leadership positions are actually coming out of teams that don't fall under the more specifics
[21:43] <jono> this is why I think we need to enable the community to lead
[21:43] <jono> no one should just look to me or my team for leadership
[21:43] <Pendulum> that then they don't feel like they have a voice to go to within Canonical
[21:43] <pleia2> that hasn't really been communitcated well, so I think some of the teams feel a bit abandoned (in fact, I'm not even sure who we assign blueprints to anymore for teams like -women ad -news)
[21:43] <Seeker`> the community shouldn't look to community managers for leadership?
[21:43] <jono> Pendulum, do you feel me or my team are  unapproachable for people to reach out to at Canonical?
[21:44] <popey> "no one should just look to me or my team for leadership" that is quite a change
[21:44] <popey> we used to certainly.
[21:44] <jono> popey, oops typo
[21:44] <jono> no one should just look to me or my team *only* for leadership
[21:44] <popey> I dont think that sufficiently changes the meaning :D
[21:45] <jono> Seeker`, of course we can provide some leadership, but Ubuntu is too big for us to be the only leaders
[21:45] <jono> popey, well we have never been the only leaders in the community
[21:45] <jono> there were plenty of leaders in Ubuntu before I joined
[21:45] <popey> sure.
[21:45] <popey> I'm not about jono-bashing.
[21:45] <popey> look, we have 15 mins left, suggestions welcome on ways to improve the status quo.
[21:45] <jono> popey, what I am trying to understand is what your primary concern is
[21:45] <jono> I think we all agree we need more leadership
[21:46] <jono> and it can't be just my team
[21:46] <AlanBell> given this conversation, how was there nothing on the CC agenda today?
[21:46] <jono> it sounds like I all know we are slammed
[21:46] <Pendulum> jono: I'm saying that if there are issues that are specific to groups that don't fall into those categories and quite honestly I think a lot of people feel like you're too busy to poke on a lot of things, then who do they go to?
[21:46] <pleia2> AlanBell: popey snuck up on us!
[21:46] <popey> AlanBell: i only thought of it this afternoon
[21:46] <Pendulum> jono: I don't think it's an issue with you or your team specifically
[21:46] <nhaines> I agree that maybe there *should* be a general community manager from Canonical.  Especially if you (jono) are being more useful overseeing the others.  I know your directs are fantastically efficient.
[21:46] <beuno> Seeker`, also, don't forget that jono is the Community Manager for Canonical, which isn't a community position  :)
[21:46] <Pendulum> I think it's structural
[21:47] <Pendulum> nhaines: that's more what I'm thinking
[21:47] <popey> I'd be interested in seeing sabdfl's take on this
[21:47] <jono> Pendulum, it depends on the issues, if it is Canonical or blocking on Canonical, my team can help, if it is general ideas or leadership, I agree we may not have time sometimes
[21:47] <popey> jono: i guess in short it boils down to community motivation.
[21:47] <popey> or lack thereof
[21:47] <jono> popey, right, and what is the source of the demotivation?
[21:48] <pleia2> jono: I think the blueprint situation is worth considering, for any teams that don't fall under your guys, how do we get blueprints looked at? how do we get on the radar for the UDS schedule? you may not be the only leaders but you're the ones who control that and there are no instructions for how to
[21:48] <jono> we all keep reiterating the problem but not identifying the cause so we can fix it :-)
[21:48] <pleia2> I just ask akgraner to make things happen, and she nudges the right people
[21:48] <pleia2> then -women and -news get on the schedule
[21:48] <popey> jono: you seem to be implying that we know the cause.
[21:48] <jono> pleia2, I can certainly not this as an issue - this is something that we can solve with more people approving, and this could include the CC and TB
[21:48] <Pendulum> pleia2: I always poke jcastro ;-)
[21:48] <jono> popey, I am not saying you do, but you know more about the problem than I do
[21:49] <jono> I am asking you to delve in a little deeper to see if you can see the cause
[21:49] <jono> why are the community feeling more demotivated?
[21:49] <jono> once we get our finger on it I am 100% committed to solving it
[21:49] <popey> i feel like I'm talking to an Eliza bot
[21:49] <jono> ?
[21:49] <popey> nvm
[21:49] <jono> ok
[21:49] <charlie-tca> If I may
[21:50] <nhaines> Sometimes I feel like Canonical doesn't have a clear direction they're moving in with Ubuntu, and I think that churns up the water for the community as well.
[21:50] <pleia2> charlie-tca: please
[21:50] <charlie-tca> One of the issues I have seen is when community sees a problem, identifies it, begins to find solutions
[21:50] <charlie-tca> Then someone from Canonical comes in and says : we are going to do ...
[21:50] <Seeker`> I admit I've been out of the loop for a while, but it sounds like there is a lack of direction within the community. The TB is good for directing technical direction, and the CC is good for more general wide-spread decision, but if canonical wants a community then there need to be people within canonical that the community can go to for advice / diretion / to get things done
[21:50] <charlie-tca> community now feels sqashed, and wonders why they should bother down the road
[21:51] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: +1
[21:51] <nhaines> charlie-tca: +1
[21:51] <jono> charlie-tca, could you mail me a few examples of that so I can get a better idea of the issues you are referring to
[21:51] <jono> so a feeling that some Canonical staff stomp on community strategy
[21:51] <charlie-tca> es
[21:51] <jono> thanks charlie-tca
[21:51] <charlie-tca> yes
[21:51] <IdleOne> nhaines: I disagree. I believe Canonical does have a clear direction. IMO and the opinion of a lot of people Canonical appears to care more about the money side of Ubuntu than it does the community side. least in the past yeah maybe two years.
[21:52] <IdleOne> s/yeah/year/
[21:52] <jono> IdleOne, while we are definitely trying to drive revenue, I don't think Canonical cares less about community
[21:52] <nhaines> IdleOne: I don't have a problem with Canonical focusing on money.  It means the community doesn't have to.
[21:52] <popey> jono: sorry if I dont have causes, this only came to mind this afternoon, after a convo with holbach, and other leaders.
[21:52] <jono> but I do agree that the community dynamic has changed here and there
[21:52] <jono> popey, np
[21:52] <IdleOne> jono: it may be true that they still care but it doesn't look like it from this side of the screen
[21:52] <nhaines> IdleOne: But a lot of the design decisions dropping out of the sky doesn't help much either.  And it may just be perspective.
[21:52] <pleia2> not to beat the dead unity horse, but that change had significant impact on teams like accessibility and docs, they were seriously blind-sided and had very little help to get their respective things sorted for a release with a new UI
[21:52] <beuno> I also don't think the change is about revenue at all, but about the strategy for achieving the goal (bug #1, etc)
[21:52] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 1 in Ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
[21:52] <jono> I really want to resolve these issues, and I am keen to work with folks to identify them and solve them
[21:53] <jono> I would like to liaise with the CC to identify the causes and put plans in place to resolve these in 12.04
[21:53] <jono> in the meantime, can I ask each of you to mail me at jono@ubuntu.com and summarize the concerns you have with our community
[21:53] <jono> this will help give me some more context about some of these challenges
[21:54] <AlanBell> jono: it would be good if the plan for 200,000,000 users was more fully articulated, so far that is just an aspiration stated, not an exciting plan of how to do it
[21:54] <Seeker`> why are community "fixes" tied to releases?
[21:54] <jono> AlanBell, you assume it is articulated
[21:54] <jono> ;-)
[21:55] <jono> unfortunately I have to hop on the phone, but I am really glad we had this discussion
[21:55] <nhaines> Seeker`: because Ubuntu is structured heavily around cadence.  They can blueprint this for 12.04 and meet at UDS to talk about it.
[21:55] <charlie-tca> Thank you, jono I will get you an email
[21:55] <jono> I think I need to step back in more and work with some of our leaders to identify these issues and resolve them
[21:55] <beuno> so maybe wait until the new CC members are on board, bring up this discussion again with a little bit of warning for everybody to think about it?  :)
[21:55] <nhaines> Seeker`: in that sense, the timing here is very fortunate.
[21:55] <jono> maybe I should stand for the CC
[21:56] <jono> so folks, please do share your concerns with me via email, all emails will be treated in confidence, so feel free to be open
[21:56] <pleia2> thanks jono
[21:57] <jono> apologies, folks, our community should be having these issues
[21:57] <popey> yeah, thanks jono, sorry for pulling you in with no notice
[21:57] <jono> it should be a fun and productive place to be
[21:57] <jono> popey, no worries, it is important that we get these things out in the open and discuss them
[21:57] <jono> later, folks
[21:57] <pleia2> and thanks everyone who chimed in, it helps a lot
[21:57] <popey> pleia2: i think we should mail the meeting link to the cc
[21:57] <pleia2> popey: yes :)
[21:58] <popey> I really appreciate everyone speaking up today, that was really vauable
[21:58] <pleia2> I'll do it this evening if no one else has (need to get back to work now)
[21:58] <popey> I'll do it now
[21:58] <pleia2> thanks
[21:58] <popey> np
[21:59] <popey> I'll cc jono
[21:59] <jono> thanks popey
[21:59] <Pendulum> popey: thank you for bringing it up. I think it's been an elephant in the room for a while
[21:59] <charlie-tca> popey: thanks for getting the discussion started
[22:00] <nhaines> popey: I think you put words to a problem everyone was feeling.
[22:00] <Seeker`> popey for president \o/
[22:01] <pleia2> lol
[22:01]  * Pendulum gives popey chocolate
[22:01] <popey> thanks.
=== jjohansen is now known as jj-afk