[02:09] <Cheesehead> valorie: Thank you for that quite unexpected +1 on my rant
[02:16] <valorie> you are most welcome -- honest speech is always welcome
[07:54] <NRWlion> morningo
[09:59] <akgraner> Hey all - hope your morning is going well...I am going to re-send invitations to all the leadership councils in the community the invitation to join this team...I think it's important that we are all working together in this effort
[10:00] <head_victim> akgraner: there were some interesting things brought up in the CC meeting earlier about leadership as well you might want to read
[10:01] <akgraner> head_victim, I know
[10:01] <akgraner> I read it all and have already send emails to some folks and working on a blog post now :-)
[10:01] <head_victim> akgraner: cool, just checking, figured it might be useful/relevant :)
[10:02] <akgraner> completely :-)
[10:02]  * head_victim has a habit of reading scrollbacks a bit too much
[10:02] <akgraner> sorry didn't mean to be short - need to find my coffee cup...
[10:02] <head_victim> Coffee is always high on my priority list as well so don't stress, as long as it's found
[10:02] <akgraner> totally :-)
[16:01]  * bkerensa works on Ubuntu Oregon's Ocelot T-shirt designs
[16:02] <akgraner> :-)
[16:04] <bkerensa> indeed fun :(
[16:05] <bkerensa> so much backlog of stuff to do
[16:21] <akgraner> always :-)
[17:33] <YoBoY> bkerensa: doing a tshirt for each release ?
[17:34] <bkerensa> Yeah thats the plan
[17:34] <bkerensa> and every global jam
[17:34] <bkerensa> :)
[17:34] <bkerensa> expensive
[17:34] <bkerensa> :D
[17:34]  * bkerensa also will try and have catering provided for every release party and global jam
[17:34] <bkerensa> :D
[17:37] <YoBoY> yes, it's expense to make one time tshirts :]
[17:37] <YoBoY> expensive
[17:37] <YoBoY> c'est cher quoi :D
[17:40] <bkerensa> YoBoY: $200-$300 each time
[17:40] <bkerensa> :D
[17:42] <YoBoY> paid by the team or the participants ?
[17:42] <bkerensa> neither
[17:42] <bkerensa> :D
[17:42] <bkerensa> Sponsors
[17:43] <YoBoY> cool :)
[17:45] <YoBoY> we don't have sponsors in France :] perhaps we are doing something wrong ^^"
[18:04] <Cheesehead> bkerensa: Sponsors pay for the shirts directly, or donate funds to the group?
[18:05] <Cheesehead> bkerensa: (Where in Oregon? I grew up in Portland)
[18:18] <YoBoY> bkerensa: how many tshirts do you make each time ?
[18:21] <bkerensa> 10 to 15 depends on the design (because cost varies by design)
[18:22] <bkerensa> Cheesehead: They pay directly.... We do not accept any funds :)
[18:22] <bkerensa> Cheesehead: Our release party will be in Portland at Backspace or Ground Kontrol
[18:22] <bkerensa> :D
[18:23] <bkerensa> Cheesehead: However I'm encouraging various other users in rural areas to kickstart Ubuntu Hours
[18:25] <Cheesehead> bkerensa: We're trying to grow Ubuntu Hours across Wisconsin, too.
[18:25] <YoBoY> ok easier to sponsor a small quantity I suppose :)
[18:27] <Cheesehead> YoBoY: Direct payment from sponsor to vendor has a tax advantage in the US, especially if the sponsored group is not regiesteered with those tax authorities!
[18:28] <Cheesehead> For example, my store sponsored 40 T-shirts for a school class. Direct payment to vendor makes it an "Advertising & Promotion" expense on the tax form. Donation to the school would make it a "Charitable Contribution", for which the audit requirements are quite strict.
[18:29] <Cheesehead> (US only)
[18:31] <YoBoY> clearly, but I need to find sponsors to make around 150 tshirts, it's a just more difficult :D
[18:31] <Cheesehead> Depends on the advertising budget of the sponsor.
[18:32] <YoBoY> yes
[18:33] <Cheesehead> Most places I'm familiar with have setup-cost + cost-per-shirt. 150 is doable in my budget every two years or so, and my store is *tiny*.
[18:33] <charlie-tca> Instead of asking one sponsor for 150, ask 15 for 10 tshirts each
[18:33] <Cheesehead> I'm usually more concerned about the shirt quality - lousy thin shirt reflects poorly on us.
[18:34] <YoBoY> charlie-tca: and my time machine? where is this awesome time machine to let me do that ? :D
[18:34] <Cheesehead> What does the sponsor get? Logo on the back?
[18:34] <YoBoY> (fear)
[18:35] <charlie-tca> I have them put their logo on the backs, myself. It gives them free advertising for a long time.
[18:37] <Cheesehead> Problem with backside is then you pay double the setup cost. That adds up fast on small orders.
[18:37] <YoBoY> 150 tshirts, every 6 month, for the volunteers (and with a model for women ;) ) with no other logo than Ubuntu  (and just a small ubuntu-fr.org, new team guidelines, the product first)
[18:37] <charlie-tca> this is true, too
[18:38] <charlie-tca> YoBoY: that seems like a lot to ask for
[18:38] <Cheesehead> YoBoY: What about blank shirts, and a button or badge instead of silkscreening?
[18:38] <bkerensa> Cheesehead: American Apparel Shirts for the win
[18:39] <YoBoY> Cheesehead: blank shirts ? no fun :]
[18:39] <Cheesehead> Just thinking options.
[18:40] <Cheesehead> American Apparel shirts can be good. My preferred embroiderer/silkscreener uses them.
[18:41] <YoBoY> our last tshirt http://www.flickr.com/photos/rock-n-pol/5916332733/in/photostream/lightbox/ B&C 150g
[18:43] <bkerensa> YoBoY: It is surprisingly cheaper to have shirts made ourself then buy from Canonical
[18:43] <Cheesehead> YoBoY: I totally agree that your group is big enough and organized enough to need printed shirts.
[18:44] <Cheesehead> If you want a sponsor to mass-buy all 150, what should they get out of it?
[18:44] <YoBoY> bkerensa: yes
[18:44] <Cheesehead> I like the photo. Great shirt design!
[18:45] <YoBoY> Cheesehead: don't know...
[18:45] <YoBoY> the design is really simple, if you want it, i can give you ^^
[18:45] <YoBoY> we have also this black model http://enventelibre.org/t-shirt-ubuntu-noir-special-1010
[18:47] <Cheesehead> Drat.
[18:47]  * Cheesehead ducks out for a couple hours
[18:53] <YoBoY> bkerensa: I asked a discount to buy 150 official lanyard in May, and they responded me they don't do that, it's the store price or nothing ^^
[18:54] <bkerensa> yeah
[18:54] <bkerensa> YoBoY: Did you have to ask Canonical to sell shirts?
[18:54] <YoBoY> we have an old agreement yes
[19:18] <charlie-tca> and now... I present the Precise Pangolin, destined to become Xubuntu 12.04 LTS
[19:19] <charlie-tca> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/784
[19:19] <charlie-tca> s/Xubuntu/Ubuntu
[20:37] <ashams> akgraner: Hi, is it planned to add further information to Chapter 6, ex. giving more info on each on communication means at it's end?
[20:38] <akgraner> ashams, there is more information needed for all the chapters
[20:38] <akgraner> I was hoping to get chapters 1 and 2 done before UDS so I  that there are completed chapters to use to teach me to add stuff to NZR
[20:38] <akgraner> bzr even
[20:39] <ashams> will take a look on both
[20:39] <akgraner> then I can create a how to based on that - and then everyone will know how to do it
[20:40] <akgraner> ashams, please free to add information
[20:40] <akgraner> or point to resources you think would be good to use for a chapter
[20:41] <ashams> can I add a new chapter too? I'm thinking of something like case studies describing some problems a team leader may run through and suggested solutions, what you think?
[20:41] <akgraner> ashams, proofing and feedback of course is needed too
[20:41] <Cheesehead> I suggest adding case studies to the existing chapters.
[20:41] <akgraner> ashams, yep  I was think those would be good for appendix information
[20:42] <Cheesehead> (Since that's what I already did)
[20:42] <ashams> gr8 :)
[20:42] <akgraner> so make it an appendix  - I think one or two in a chapter is fine - others should be in an appendix and in an online resource
[20:42] <ashams> akgraner: yeah, I second this
[20:43] <akgraner> but that's just the editor in me - :-)
[20:43] <ashams> case studies on each chapter will take a lot of time, Cheesehead , what you think?
[20:43] <akgraner> yes  - a lot...
[20:44] <akgraner> but that can be added over time
[20:44] <akgraner> remember this isn't something that needs to be done all at once
[20:44] <ashams> yes but also keeping in mind that a lot of ppl in a need for this :)
[20:45] <akgraner> getting the core information in is important then we just add to it as people can...this way we don't add to much pressure onto those helping - feel free to create Appendix Foo Chapter Bar
[20:45] <akgraner> ashams, totally
[20:45] <Cheesehead> ashams: I think akgraner has put together an excellent skeleton for us to flesh out. Whether examples go in a chapter or an appendix is really the editor's preference.
[20:45] <Cheesehead> Since the editor is akgraner, I defer.
[20:46] <akgraner> Cheesehead, people can add stuff wherever and in the final stages we can flesh it out
[20:46] <ashams> Hey, I think there's some kind of misunderstanding
[20:46] <ashams> I wasn't talking about examples
[20:47] <akgraner> I'm not picky - (yet) :-)  I am just excited and encouraged by everyones enthusiasm and willingness to help out
[20:47] <ashams> but, about a a problems that existed locos ran through and possible solutions
[20:47] <ashams> some problems*
[20:47] <akgraner> ashams, nods - but the problem is some haven't voiced these problems
[20:48]  * Cheesehead is confused by the difference
[20:48] <ashams> I mean when things go bad and leaders can't deal with it
[20:48] <akgraner> so I am going to ask the loco contacts/ loco council to help document those  - I'll cc you on the email if you'd like to help sorting that out
[20:48] <akgraner> Cheesehead, some things are this has occurred
[20:48] <ashams> akgraner: sure
[20:48] <akgraner> others are this might happen here's how to prepare
[20:49] <Cheesehead> So...examples of things that have gone wrong?
[20:49] <ashams> Cheesehead: yeah
[20:49] <ashams> and how to fix it
[20:49] <akgraner> yep
[20:49]  * Cheesehead seems to understand better now
[20:49] <ashams> :)
[20:50] <akgraner> slight difference
[20:50] <ashams> yes, but should we add it to each chapter on somewhere else?
[20:50] <akgraner> ashams, I'll work on that over the next day or two
[20:50] <ashams> or*
[20:51] <akgraner> let's just add them separately then we can work them into the chapters
[20:51] <Cheesehead> Case studies of that sort are precisely what I hope to bring to the IRC workshops as well
[20:51] <akgraner> (as needed)
[20:51] <ashams> aha
[20:51] <akgraner> Cheesehead, I love the online workshop ideas
[20:51] <Cheesehead> Always nice to be able to re-use good material
[20:52] <DarkwingDuck> akgraner: Quick publishing question for you.
[20:52] <Cheesehead> akgraner: When I have time later this week, I plan to get more aggressive about recruiting some trainers.
[20:52] <akgraner> Cheesehead, nice!  Let me know how I can help :-)  I am working on open getting through open week right now
[20:53] <akgraner> DarkwingDuck, shoot
[20:53] <DarkwingDuck> akgraner: when submitting an ad. Does Ubuntu User require the color and percision markers on the edges and corners?
[20:54] <akgraner> depends on what it's for...but generally not
[20:54] <akgraner> what ad are you submitting  - print or online?
[20:54] <DarkwingDuck> Okay. It's a full page ad for SCALE. :) Want a sneek peek?
[20:55] <DarkwingDuck> Print I believe.
[20:55] <akgraner> ahhh - and of course...
[20:56] <DarkwingDuck> It's still SVG but, I'm getting it ready for print once it's 100% approved. http://people.ubuntu.com/~david.wonderly/SCaLE10/Ads/UbuntuUser.svg
[20:57] <ashams> DarkwingDuck: it's nice :)
[20:58] <DarkwingDuck> Thanks.
[20:58] <akgraner> NIce
[20:58] <DarkwingDuck> I have not done any graphic design for almost 10 years. Feels good to get back into it.
[20:58] <akgraner> Nice
[20:58] <akgraner> I love SCALE
[20:58] <DarkwingDuck> :D
[20:58] <DarkwingDuck> Me too.
[20:58] <akgraner> it's one of my favorite events to 1) speak at 2) attend 3) interview the planners
[20:59] <akgraner> which reminds me I need to submit my talk
[20:59] <DarkwingDuck> :) I'm doing most of the graphic planning this year.
[20:59] <akgraner> that's great
[20:59] <akgraner> those folks are an awesome group
[20:59] <DarkwingDuck> Yes they are.
[20:59] <DarkwingDuck> You coming in January Amber?
[21:00] <akgraner> ashams, back to your question - just create either an appendix or New Chapter
[21:00] <akgraner> it's a quick fix no matter how we decide to incorporate and use them. :-)  thank you for being willing to work on this part
[21:01] <akgraner> DarkwingDuck, yep
[21:02] <akgraner> Hoping my talk will get picked up
[21:02] <DarkwingDuck> akgraner: woot!
[21:02] <akgraner> I am submitting a few....
[21:02] <ashams> akgraner: thanks, I'll create a list of cases on 2-3 next days then start working on them
[21:02] <akgraner> too many ideas :-) I want to talk about
[21:03] <akgraner> ashams, great!  thank you and I'll CC you on the email and tell people you are the POC but that they an drop in here or the mailing list etc  - but sometimes just having a POC makes people feel easier with submissions etc
[21:04] <akgraner> some people will want to talk about things but may not want their name associated with the problem
[21:04] <akgraner> so they will have to know if they ask for confidentially that it will be respected
[21:04] <akgraner> (not saying you wouldn't - just mentioning you may get/see some of that)
[21:06] <ashams> np at all, it will be fully respected and handled with care, would you please hint for this in the email?
[21:07] <ashams> just mention that they can reply privately whenever needed
[21:08] <akgraner> will do :-)
[21:10] <ashams> thanks
[21:33] <NRWlion> hey there
[21:34] <NRWlion> akgraner: ping
[23:00] <Darkwing> Disney has formally requested that I stop using the trademarked name DarkwingDuck.
[23:02] <akgraner> ha your first cease and desist go you!
[23:04] <Darkwing> :D
[23:05] <valorie> did they write you a letter or something?
[23:05] <valorie> geez
[23:05] <Darkwing> They called me.
[23:06] <Cheesehead> The standard used to be consumer confusion (see Apple Records v. Apple Computer)
[23:07] <Cheesehead> If you're simply using the name as an online alias, they are just bullying and have no real standing.
[23:08] <Cheesehead> (I am not licensed to practice law in Califonria)
[23:08] <valorie> indeed -- how are you making money from it?
[23:08] <valorie> you aren't
[23:09] <valorie> that said, you have a family and probably don't want to risk legal action
[23:09] <valorie> ugh
[23:09] <Darkwing> Darkwing isn't trademarked and so I'm using it.
[23:10] <Darkwing> :D
[23:10] <Cheesehead> Have them mail you a letter, then forward it to your favorite TV stations.
[23:10] <Darkwing> LOL
[23:10] <Cheesehead> ...purely for the entertainment value, of course.
[23:10] <Darkwing> Nope.. I dont' want to be a pain.
[23:12] <Cheesehead> Drat. I was going to make you into *real* trademark-defying logo.
[23:12]  * Cheesehead hits the delete key
[23:13] <akgraner> rebels!
[23:13] <akgraner> :-P
[23:17] <valorie> against the unholy corporate DRM alliance?
[23:17] <valorie> YEAH
[23:18]  * Darkwing sighs
[23:18] <Darkwing> This nick is everywhere.
[23:18] <Darkwing> GPG, SSH, Wow...
[23:19]  * Cheesehead debates changing his nick to ScroogeMcDuck
[23:20] <Cheesehead> Or perhaps ScroogeMcDuck{$obscenity}
[23:20]  * Cheesehead decides to stick to TheHamburglar
[23:32] <Cheesehead> What about DarkwingDuckNotTheDisneyOne ?
[23:33] <Cheesehead> Okay, I'm dropping it.
[23:34] <Darkwing> LOL!!!
[23:34] <knome> DarkwingGoose?
[23:34] <Darkwing> I wonder if I need to do something with darkwingduck.org....
[23:34] <Cheesehead> Yes, offer to sell it.
[23:35] <knome> for $10 billion.
[23:36] <Darkwing> XD
[23:37] <Cheesehead> Honestly, you need change nothing. From your (limited) description, the trademark holders must prove they attempted to enforce it. But they are very unlikely to sue - you are making no money from the trademarked phrase, and there is no consumer confusion
[23:37] <Cheesehead> So they did what they must.
[23:38] <Cheesehead> But that doesn;t mean you must do what they want.
[23:39] <Cheesehead> Sleep tonight unworried by this. It will make a great party story someday, and very likely no more.
[23:40] <Cheesehead> Conversely, they have much to lose.
[23:41] <Darkwing> Or, I can just change and be a the nice guy :)
[23:41] <Darkwing> I've actually changed 99% of everything already.
[23:41] <Cheesehead> If they hire you, it would be cheaper than suing you...
[23:44]  * Cheesehead admits it's easy to be aggressive if your'e not the one staring at an open-ended lawsuit from a multi-billion-dollar corporation 
[23:45]  * Cheesehead would probably do exactly what Darkwing is doing
[23:45] <Darkwing> hehehe. They didn't threaten me. They actually kinda requested that I change.
[23:48] <Darkwing> Hopy crud!
[23:48] <Darkwing> Steve Jobs is dead.
[23:49]  * Cheesehead offers a respectful moment of silence
[23:49] <akgraner> Steve Jobs Dies: Apple Chief Created Personal Computer, iPad, iPod - http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/steve-jobs-apple-ceo-dies/story?id=14383813
[23:50] <Darkwing> Say waht you want about methodoligy... He was a true visionary.
[23:50] <akgraner> that he was!
[23:50] <knome> huh
[23:56] <akgraner> http://www.apple.com/