[00:07] * andres-kain smiles [00:07] \o/ finally learnt a bit of irc [00:08] good night! [04:38] 20 minutes to F1 [04:38] well 22 [05:25] you're awake early to see it? :) [06:15] Morning [07:14] morning [07:14] my upgrade is still going [07:14] got stuck on a modified config file [07:25] restart tme! [07:38] not good :( [07:38] lets try unity 2d [07:41] ok, that mostly works [07:41] compiz was having issues getting started with unity3d [07:42] I got the nautilus desktop but no unity [07:48] http://paste.ubuntu.com/704769/ [07:55] yay, fixed it [07:55] in ccsm enabled unity and turned off some conflicting keybinding options [08:25] Aloha [08:27] morning czajkowski [08:27] AlanBell: hows things [08:27] fine, nice quiet house and I have upgraded to Oneiric [08:28] :) [08:28] how is London this morning? [08:28] not raining [08:29] this is building up :) http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1283/detail/ [08:30] aye poked jono last night to mail internally as they all are there this week [08:30] so no reason not to use the sign up really [08:30] and give people an idea of numbers [08:30] yus [08:33] morning [08:39] AlanBell: How did the upgrade go? [08:41] hey GirlyGirl AlanBell [08:41] morning [08:41] knightwise: Morning [08:48] GirlyGirl: I am upgraded [08:48] unity3d failed a bit [08:49] AlanBell: What are the changes to unity .. how do you find it [08:49] gord: unity --reset doesn't seem to resolve conflicts in compiz [08:49] GirlyGirl: it is OK, I can launch applications and navigate between them [08:50] the apps lens is a pile of fail for not grouping stuff by category, but I wrote my own lens to do that [08:52] at least it is now offering me slightly relevant apps for download when I filter by category [09:04] morning everyone. [09:05] thunderbird has prettier buttons [09:24] Thunderbird needs microsoft exchange support... I have wubi on my sisters PC and tried the 11.04 mail app, and was suprised that I could get my school emails at home... [09:28] Lcawte: there are some plugins or exchange for TB [09:28] Really? Oh cool, haven't been able to find them though.. [10:04] banshee just triggered a thermal shutdown [10:04] cool [10:04] * AlanBell gives up listening to music for another year [10:04] AlanBell: it likes to go into * 100% CPU eating loop if you apt-get upgrade while it's running [10:04] AlanBell: Laney and I filed a bug about that [10:05] AlanBell: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=659841 [10:05] I clicked a track in the music lens and it did it [10:06] Gnome bug 659841 in general "Hang when GConf can't be called(?)" [Major,Unconfirmed] [10:06] AlanBell: Clicking on banshee (or trying to control it some other way) after a (dist-)upgrade tirggers it for me [10:07] it is a gconf problem [10:08] Laney: yeah I saw the link at the bottom -- its SIGHUP handler is broken or something? [10:08] pretty much [10:16] heh [10:16] tbh I still can't see past audacious for music playing [10:17] start it up, click on a directory with some audio files, click play [10:17] sound comes out [10:40] * StevenR uses mpd [10:49] hey everyone =) [10:52] hey s1m0nsk1 [10:52] hey knightwise [11:01] quiet in here, isn't it? [11:11] s1m0nsk1: sunday lunchtime, eh [11:26] the time/calendar applet has vanished from the indicator area, how can I restart it? [12:00] the installer doesn't really tell you much about what's going on, does it? [12:01] it's been saying "Downloading packages ( remaining)" for about ten minutes now [12:01] every so often the time jumps up by a couple of minutes, presumably as it works out it needs something else [12:01] if it does it again, I'm cancelling this install and sticking Arch on [12:02] clicking on the expander arrow reveals a black textbox with a cursor [12:24] gordonjcp: it is even less informative if you are using orca, it reads out stuff like "234% complete . . ." [12:24] AlanBell: heh [12:25] after the upgrade my firefox search engines have mostly gone awol [12:25] only one remaining is ask.com [12:25] the colours are horrible [12:26] colours in the installer or default theme or what? [12:26] default theme [12:27] purple, yellow, green and brownish-grey [12:27] looks like my monitor has septicaemia [12:27] the new fonts are cool [12:28] colours are somewhat distinctive, yes [12:28] I would like more dramatic changes each release [12:29] I quite liked the orangey-brown scheme [12:30] I am fine with the aubergine/orange, just think the default wallpaper should have been the one with the yellow ocelot on it [12:31] that Mac Menu thing is annoying [12:31] yeah, it is [12:31] they half fixed it for dual monitors [12:32] how do you get rid of it? [12:32] hmm that ocelot almost looks like it's origami [12:32] there are some things that are good to copy from the mac [12:32] AlanBell: RoundRects Are Everywhere [12:32] but other than that, not very much... [12:32] gordonjcp: I am living wtih the global menu for a week or two, apparently it grows on you [12:33] AlanBell: well, it's the thing that utterly prevents me from using Macs [12:33] it does save screen real estate which is good [12:33] but with sloppy focus it's a bit of a pita [12:33] "oh, I need something from the menu" [12:33] [12:33] concentration gone [12:34] Bug #764905 is a great example of copying a mac where you shouldn't [12:34] Launchpad bug 764905 in Ayatana Design "Drag and drop a USB key into the trash should eject the USB key" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/764905 [12:35] AlanBell: that never made sense, even on the Mac [12:35] even the guy that designed it said it didn't make sense, it just ended up that way because people got used to doing it [12:35] sunday roast...anyone? [12:36] Monsterwizard: I'm thinking pub lunch actually [12:36] Monsterwizard: duck here :) [12:36] * penguin42 just had breakfast [12:36] fish here???? :S [12:36] up late penguin42? [12:36] Monsterwizard: I always do odd times at the weekend [12:37] fair deal [12:37] AlanBell: I may go back to trying global menu, but I want to stage my changes [12:37] AlanBell: the unity desktop is a lot to get used to [12:37] What cool things can I do with Ubuntu in a virtual box? [12:38] I still haven't figured out how to get windows to show up without closing whatever is on top of them [12:40] AlanBell: Do you have any issues with brightness on boot? My brightness is at the lowest point at boot & I have to manually adjust brightness to get a usable screen every time, it doesn't save the updated setting [12:40] DJones: I have not noticed any issue with that [12:40] how do you fix the close/minimise/maximise button at the top of the window? [12:41] what's the bug for when the launcher doesn't pop out? [12:41] gordonjcp: "fix" how? [12:41] MartijnVdS: they're on the wrong side [12:41] gordonjcp: no they're not. You windows-user you :) [12:41] gordonjcp: install human-theme and use it [12:41] MartijnVdS: what? [12:41] brightness bugs are very often specific bios/hardware issues [12:41] ah, now that you do get used to! [12:42] MartijnVdS: I haven't used Windows, I wouldn't know [12:42] AlanBell: Odd, the other thing I've noticed is that the terminal window font can't be changed on a permanent basis, each time it defaults to larger than I want & the setting doesn't stay fixed [12:42] MartijnVdS: every other GUI I have used has them on the right side [12:42] MartijnVdS: well, except NeXTSTEP which sort of did its own thing there [12:42] but still had a close button on the right [12:42] DJones: my laptop key for changing brightnes does all or nothing, just a fast fade from one extreme to the other [12:43] * MartijnVdS never uses the buttons anyway [12:43] Ctrl+W :) [12:43] DJones: yeah, the terminal font is huge [12:43] AlanBell: I'm not really interested in "getting used to it" [12:43] you never get used to it, trust me [12:43] i've been using unity for 6 months, and i still haven't got used to it [12:43] none of my other machines have got it like that, I don't want it on this one [12:44] anyway i already told you how to fix it... [12:45] you can't fix it for maximized windows though [12:45] sudo apt-get remove appmenu-gtk indicator-applet-appmenu indicator-appmenu [12:45] gordonjcp: I have my terminal font sensible and it seems to be remembering it [12:45] ^^ breaks the global menu [12:45] penguin42: I haven't tried adjusting it [12:46] is virtual bbox the best virtual machine? [12:46] Monsterwizard: it is a decent desktop virtual machine tool [12:46] gordonjcp: I think there may have been a recent change in how X tries to guess the size/dpi of the monitor which changes some font sizes - I think it's given up believing what the monitor sometimes told it [12:46] penguin42: heh [12:47] I take it banshee is the new, improved rhythmbox? [12:47] no, banshee is the new rhythmbox [12:48] oh :-/ [12:48] well it actually starts and runs, which is an improvement over rhythmbox any time I've tried it in the past couple of years [12:48] well, I dunno really I am hardly an expert on music things [12:48] * penguin42 pats Exaile [12:48] re all [12:48] hi AndroUser === AndroUser is now known as pr0ph3t [12:49] sorry [12:49] it's just me [12:49] this is outragous [12:49] there's not IMAP for hotmail [12:51] I was wondering what do you use for vnc connections on the server side, I use Android vnc and I thought of using X11VNC server [12:51] i don't think there's POP for hotmail either.. [12:51] x11vnc is for sharing existing desktop as I remember [12:51] there's POP3 Yes [12:52] right, gnome-terminal is using the system fixed width font [12:52] :O Pop is useless, [12:52] get a Google account, or yahoo [12:52] is there a way to change the fonts? IIRC it used to be in "appearance" in the settings but that's just got wallpaper stuff [12:52] you can get IMAP with those [12:53] so going back to my question, do you use ssh access instead to control the box from remote? [12:54] yes, of course [12:54] !ssh [12:55] SSH is the Secure SHell protocol, see: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SSH for client usage. PuTTY is an SSH client for Windows; see: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ for it's homepage. See also !scp (Secure CoPy) and !sshd (Secure SHell Daemon) [12:55] !sshd [12:55] SSH is the Secure SHell protocol, sshd is the server (or daemon) of SSH. For setting up the SSH server, please see: https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/serverguide/C/openssh-server.html . Advanced SSH uses: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SSH/OpenSSH/Advanced . For SSH client information, see !ssh . Related: !scp (Secure CoPy) [12:55] if I've got two terminals open, then clicking the box on the left side makes them both appear and whoosh about the screen [12:55] how do I get them both to show up in the sidebar? [12:56] thanks jacobw [12:56] you can't [12:56] you can't do any of this stuff with unity [12:57] :-/ [12:58] that is rapidly approaching dealbreaker-levels of annoying [12:58] how did you possible only just notice this? [12:58] ali1234: it's the first time I've used Ubuntu for about a year [12:58] so if setup properly ssh is much more secure than vnc, or is it just more powerful, i.e. gives you more control? [12:58] and I didn't really use it much before that [12:59] ali1234: well, not since the last LTS but one ;-) [12:59] pr0ph3t: both, yes [12:59] ali1234: the windows-whooshing-about thing is really irritating [12:59] if I wanted to play Duck Hunt, I'd play Duck Hunt [13:00] yes i know, it's rubbish [13:00] different instances of the same program don't even number differently if you hold [13:00] it wouldn't be any where near as bad if they stayed in the same place each time, but they don't [13:01] well, I'll give it another 20 minutes [13:01] that'll be me having used it for an hour [13:02] I think it's wipe and reinstall time though, this is bordering on unusable [13:02] what did you use previously? [13:02] XFCE4 on Arch [13:02] I could probably just install xubuntu but that rather defeats the purpose of installing Ubuntu at all [13:03] it would also be much less annoying if it didn't show every terminal window from every desktop, but again, it doesn't [13:03] there is no way in hell I could ever explain how to use this to my Mum [13:04] that's generally my basic criterion for working out what I'm going to install on computers for people [13:04] i just ask them what they want [13:05] ali1234: most people want "the Internet" [13:05] which is why the iPad and various Android tablets are taking over from desktops [13:05] but that's a whole 'nother can of worms [13:05] yeah well if they say that i just tell them to buy a mac [13:06] I don't really see the point in Macs unless you need Final Cut Pro [13:06] you're paying over the odds for a cheap crappy Intel PC [13:06] 'normal' people don't try to switch between terminal windows very often ;) [13:06] in a cheap crappy case [13:06] with an ugly and hard-to-use OS [13:07] yeah well that's not my problem [13:07] * jacobw also doesn't find macs easy to use [13:08] jacobw: I don't, mostly because the dock is incomprehensible to me and I find having the menu bar at the top of the screen incredibly distracting [13:08] jacobw: it was fine in like System 7 when it was single-tasking to begin with ;-) [13:09] I don't like the application-oriented workspace-ignoring grouping of the dock [13:11] gordonjcp: you can middle click things in the launcher to create new instances of them, like terminal windows [13:12] but there is no reasonable way to switch between them after you have done that [13:12] no, not if you like workspaces [13:12] whether you use them or not [13:12] also unity now gets slower and slower the longer you use it [13:12] don't see why they are not listed in the right click menu of the launcher [13:12] anyone else had windows get stuck? [13:13] where you drag the window... and it just doesn't move at all? [13:13] yes, I had some windows get non-draggable earlier [13:13] it's really annoying [13:13] also the expose is showing white rectangles instead of the window contents [13:13] alt+drag tends to always work for me [13:13] thought it was because I was messing with ccsm at the time [13:13] basically unity is now more buggy than it was in natty [13:14] and not even any attempt to fix any of the design flaws [13:14] does anyone own an x220? [13:14] this is really slow, too [13:14] at least they've toned down the eyewatering drop shadows from natty [13:14] they still show up in screenshots like they did before though [13:15] hm, no UPNP in banshee, but it *does* have DAAP? [13:15] weird [13:15] it has upnp as well [13:15] I miss the big shadows :) [13:15] look for dlna or something [13:15] yeah, I was [13:15] ali1234: only in alpha right? [13:15] what is only in alpha? [13:16] UPNP+Banshee? [13:16] I do think unity is better than it used to be [13:17] I type too fast for alt+F2 [13:17] hm [13:17] unity design hasn't changed since natty [13:17] some bugs have been fixed [13:18] ah, okay [13:18] like the displayed maximized windows [13:18] but there are a whole load of new ones that are just as bad/worse [13:18] Banshee apparently doesn't support UPNP according to a mailing list posting from June [13:18] weird, i'm sure i have seen a dlna plugin for it [13:18] maybe i imagined it [13:18] so I need to use a non-standard and patent-encumbered DAAP server to play music on my Ubuntu system ;-) [13:18] banshee sucks anyway [13:19] ali1234: it's a GSoC'11 item [13:19] ali1234: http://topfs2.wordpress.com/2011/04/29/gsoc-2011-banshee-upnp-serverclient-integration/ [13:19] slowest audio player i've ever used [13:19] ali1234: maybe you remembered that bit [13:19] no i probably remembered it from rhythmbox [13:19] yay coherence. Makes rb as stable as banshee [13:20] i've never seen a upnp system that works properly anyway [13:20] ali1234: My Synology NAS + my PS3 and TV work fine together [13:20] and besides, if you want to stream music on ubuntu, you are supposed to buy a ubuntu one account [13:20] can't have anything interfering with the revenue stream now can we? [13:21] cynical much? [13:21] this all reminds me of the dashboard on the Berlingos at work [13:21] go ask any upnp developer about how much workarounds they need to make ps3 work [13:21] ali1234: sure [13:21] gordonjcp: citroen? [13:21] ye [13:22] five firmware updates later, and you can control the MP3 player from the GPS screen, the steering wheel buttons, the display softkeys or the front of the stereo [13:22] basically any device that does not sell as much as the ps3 needs just as many workarounds, but doesn't get them because there is no interest [13:22] but you still cannot tell it that you want to avoid motorways [13:23] and you can't disable the reversing beeper any more [13:24] what's especially annoying is three updates ago you could have it automatically not beep in reverse depending on what time it was [13:24] I want an open-source car [13:25] so don't get the firmware updates? [13:25] just buy a car from 1993 [13:26] no computer control [13:26] ali1234: I have a car from 1988, and a car from 1981 [13:26] well, there you go then [13:26] the only electronic thing in the one from 1981 is the clock on the dashboard, and I know it doesn't work [13:26] * MartijnVdS has one from '02 [13:26] (actually, the clock in the '88 one is broken too) [13:27] great, you can no longer use human theme because it's gtk2 [13:29] so where can i get a theme for gtk3 that is actually good? [13:31] ah, gnome-themes-standard [13:31] which installs only 1 theme [13:32] hmm [13:33] you now have to log out and log in again to make the window decoration update [13:34] not that you'd ever want to change it since there are no good themes for gtk3 [13:40] all i want is a theme where the focussed window title bar is a different colour [13:43] all I want is for music playback to work in Ubuntu, but I'm not there yet [13:43] oh, sod it, I'll just use sshfs [13:56] this is just ridiculous, banshee doesn't do upnp, *nothing* does DAAP apart from banshee [14:06] there is no way to maximize a window on the second monitor with gnome-shell. genius [14:06] gordonjcp: totem, rythmbox and media-explorer all do upnp [14:06] ali1234: double click the title bar [14:07] or drag to the top of the screen [14:07] not only that but multiple workspaces don't affect the second monitor [14:07] so any window on the second monitor is always on the screen [14:07] yep, one of my favourite features [14:07] X3N: weirdly enough, disabling daap and re-enabling it in banshee has brought it to life [14:08] lets see how well it handles full screen apps [14:09] i notice the gnome-shell makes it even harder than unity to open two terminal windows on at the same time [14:11] "open new window" ? [14:12] where is that? [14:12] right click on the icon [14:13] or middle click to open new window on new workspace [14:14] friend brought round a broken windows laptop, now installing oneiric on it :) [14:14] one way or another they won't come back with it [14:14] lol [14:15] "worst computer repair ever, would not use again" [14:15] or, yay, my laptop just works [14:15] one or the other :) [14:16] it was an ebay purchase apparently [14:16] old tecra with 256MB ram and a celeron processor (now has 1GB from my box of bits) [14:16] looooool [14:16] ubuntu will not run well on that [14:17] better than a second hand windows [14:17] live CD works ok [14:17] it won't run better than XP on that [14:17] it will probably run significantly worse [14:17] booting up to a desktop doesn't say much [14:18] it has a broken XP on it, which hasn't run since purchase [14:18] so it has all the old owners files on it? [14:18] yeah, and their malware no doubt [14:18] yeah [14:18] just wipe it and restore windows [14:18] nothing else is gonna work on a machine that old [14:19] don't have windows restore disks [14:19] you don't need them [14:19] if it isn't on the HD just get them from MSDN [14:19] don't have MSDN [14:20] and don't really want windows [14:20] how come? [14:20] windows is ok [14:20] it might come back! [14:20] stick Haiku on it [14:20] Windows is the misunderstood OS [14:20] put gnu hurd on it [14:20] I don't support windows [14:20] i guarantee it wont come back [14:21] ali1234: I want it to at least *leave* [14:21] i will support windows if the price right [14:21] but only until it leaves my possesion [14:21] if it comes back it's wipe time [14:21] billable hours \o/ [14:21] gnome-shell notifications pop up ad disappear as soon as you press a key [14:22] "friend of wife" is not a billable customer [14:22] annoying if one pops up while you are typing [14:22] thunderbird totally fails to work [14:22] thunderbird is rubbish [14:22] well yeah [14:22] it's still better than evolution though [14:23] tbh it was a bad choice including it [14:23] well what else are they going to do? "sorry, there is no good email client on linux" [14:23] well evolution has had a bug with HTML email that has made it unusable for about five years [14:23] evolution just crashes every time i try to use it [14:23] receive an HTML email, try to reply to it as non-HTML, get all sorts of crazy formatting [14:23] sometimes it doesn't even crash. sometimes it doesn't even respond to any input at all [14:25] something that was as usable and functional as Eudora about ten years ago would be nice [14:26] I use thunderbird as my main email client [14:27] lack of exchange support is either a dealbreaker for some people, or of no relevance whatsoever to everyone else [14:29] wow even the gnome fallback is terrible now [14:29] why is the clock in the middle of the panel? [14:29] and why is the panel so ugly? [14:30] ali1234 in wonderland :P [14:30] lol notifications are messed up as well [14:31] well i guess linux no longer has a usable desktop enviroment [14:32] people have put a lot of time and effort into breaking that stuff [14:32] no doubt in gnome 3.4 they will claim that they are removing it because "nobody uses it" [14:33] which will be true [14:33] probably [14:33] nobody will wnt to use this because it is completely crippled [14:34] does xfce use gtk3 now? [14:35] the quality of free software was much higher when developers were writing it just for themselves [14:35] unity with a sane lens for launching applications and more predictable window management would be just fine [14:36] instead of some imagined, half-retarded "normal user" [14:36] now they write it for people who think dragging a USB device to the rubbish bin should "eject" it [14:38] hah [14:38] if it were up to me,dragging a usb device to the rubbish bin would permanently brick it [14:38] when they get people in for user experience testing you would think they would allow them to sober up first [14:39] right time to try xfce [14:39] how are you planning to do that? [14:40] is there a way to make a specific terminal (or any other window, really) have a separate square on the strip at the side? [14:40] oh dear [14:40] is it really so hard to pick the right font size? [14:41] gordonjcp: I don't think so, I think gord did the stacking logic [14:45] any idea what DPI i have to use to make this ubuntu font not look dirty? 96, hinting slight? [14:46] what font size does gnome use? [14:46] I set my terminal to Ubuntu Mono 10 [14:46] ugh, this is total fail [14:46]