[00:07]  * andres-kain smiles
[00:07] <andres-kain> \o/ finally learnt a bit of irc
[00:08] <andres-kain> good night!
[04:38] <MartijnVdS> 20 minutes to F1
[04:38] <MartijnVdS> well 22
[05:25] <daftykins> you're awake early to see it? :)
[06:15] <GirlyGirl> Morning
[07:14] <AlanBell> morning
[07:14] <AlanBell> my upgrade is still going
[07:14] <AlanBell> got stuck on a modified config file
[07:25] <AlanBell> restart tme!
[07:38] <AlanBell> not good :(
[07:38] <AlanBell> lets try unity 2d
[07:41] <AlanBell> ok, that mostly works
[07:41] <AlanBell> compiz was having issues getting started with unity3d
[07:42] <AlanBell> I got the nautilus desktop but no unity
[07:48] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/704769/
[07:55] <AlanBell> yay, fixed it
[07:55] <AlanBell> in ccsm enabled unity and turned off some conflicting keybinding options
[08:25] <czajkowski> Aloha
[08:27] <AlanBell> morning czajkowski
[08:27] <czajkowski> AlanBell: hows things
[08:27] <AlanBell> fine, nice quiet house and I have upgraded to Oneiric
[08:28] <czajkowski> :)
[08:28] <AlanBell> how is London this morning?
[08:28] <czajkowski> not raining
[08:29] <AlanBell> this is building up :) http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1283/detail/
[08:30] <czajkowski> aye poked jono last night to mail internally as they all are there this week
[08:30] <czajkowski> so no reason not to use the sign up really
[08:30] <czajkowski> and give people an idea of numbers
[08:30] <AlanBell> yus
[08:33] <knightwise> morning
[08:39] <GirlyGirl> AlanBell: How did the upgrade go?
[08:41] <knightwise> hey GirlyGirl AlanBell
[08:41] <knightwise> morning
[08:41] <GirlyGirl> knightwise: Morning
[08:48] <AlanBell> GirlyGirl: I am upgraded
[08:48] <AlanBell> unity3d failed a bit
[08:49] <GirlyGirl> AlanBell: What are the changes to unity .. how do you find it
[08:49] <AlanBell> gord: unity --reset doesn't seem to resolve conflicts in compiz
[08:49] <AlanBell> GirlyGirl: it is OK, I can launch applications and navigate between them
[08:50] <AlanBell> the apps lens is a pile of fail for not grouping stuff by category, but I wrote my own lens to do that
[08:52] <AlanBell> at least it is now offering me slightly relevant apps for download when I filter by category
[09:04] <brobostigon> morning everyone.
[09:05] <AlanBell> thunderbird has prettier buttons
[09:24] <Lcawte> Thunderbird needs microsoft exchange support... I have wubi on my sisters PC and tried the 11.04 mail app, and was suprised that I could get my school emails at home...
[09:28] <StevenR> Lcawte: there are some plugins or exchange for TB
[09:28] <Lcawte> Really? Oh cool, haven't been able to find them though..
[10:04] <AlanBell> banshee just triggered a thermal shutdown
[10:04] <MartijnVdS> cool
[10:04]  * AlanBell gives up listening to music for another year
[10:04] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: it likes to go into <number of cpus> * 100% CPU eating loop if you apt-get upgrade while it's running
[10:04] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: Laney and I filed a bug about that
[10:05] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=659841
[10:05] <AlanBell> I clicked a track in the music lens and it did it
[10:06] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: Clicking on banshee (or trying to control it some other way) after a (dist-)upgrade tirggers it for me
[10:07] <Laney> it is a gconf problem
[10:08] <MartijnVdS> Laney: yeah I saw the link at the bottom -- its SIGHUP handler is broken or something?
[10:08] <Laney> pretty much
[10:16] <gordonjcp> heh
[10:16] <gordonjcp> tbh I still can't see past audacious for music playing
[10:17] <gordonjcp> start it up, click on a directory with some audio files, click play
[10:17] <gordonjcp> sound comes out
[10:40]  * StevenR uses mpd
[10:49] <knightwise> hey everyone =)
[10:52] <knightwise> hey s1m0nsk1
[10:52] <s1m0nsk1> hey knightwise
[11:01] <s1m0nsk1> quiet in here, isn't it?
[11:11] <gordonjcp> s1m0nsk1: sunday lunchtime, eh
[11:26] <kvarley> the time/calendar applet has vanished from the indicator area, how can I restart it?
[12:00] <gordonjcp> the installer doesn't really tell you much about what's going on, does it?
[12:01] <gordonjcp> it's been saying "Downloading packages (<some time> remaining)" for about ten minutes now
[12:01] <gordonjcp> every so often the time jumps up by a couple of minutes, presumably as it works out it needs something else
[12:01] <gordonjcp> if it does it again, I'm cancelling this install and sticking Arch on
[12:02] <gordonjcp> clicking on the expander arrow reveals a black textbox with a cursor
[12:24] <AlanBell> gordonjcp: it is even less informative if you are using orca, it reads out stuff like "234% complete . . ."
[12:24] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: heh
[12:25] <AlanBell> after the upgrade my firefox search engines have mostly gone awol
[12:25] <AlanBell> only one remaining is ask.com
[12:25] <gordonjcp> the colours are horrible
[12:26] <AlanBell> colours in the installer or default theme or what?
[12:26] <gordonjcp> default theme
[12:27] <gordonjcp> purple, yellow, green and brownish-grey
[12:27] <gordonjcp> looks like my monitor has septicaemia
[12:27] <gordonjcp> the new fonts are cool
[12:28] <AlanBell> colours are somewhat distinctive, yes
[12:28] <AlanBell> I would like more dramatic changes each release
[12:29] <gordonjcp> I quite liked the orangey-brown scheme
[12:30] <AlanBell> I am fine with the aubergine/orange, just think the default wallpaper should have been the one with the yellow ocelot on it
[12:31] <gordonjcp> that Mac Menu thing is annoying
[12:31] <AlanBell> yeah, it is
[12:31] <AlanBell> they half fixed it for dual monitors
[12:32] <gordonjcp> how do you get rid of it?
[12:32] <penguin42> hmm that ocelot almost looks like it's origami
[12:32] <AlanBell> there are some things that are good to copy from the mac
[12:32] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: RoundRects Are Everywhere
[12:32] <gordonjcp> but other than that, not very much...
[12:32] <AlanBell> gordonjcp: I am living wtih the global menu for a week or two, apparently it grows on you
[12:33] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: well, it's the thing that utterly prevents me from using Macs
[12:33] <penguin42> it does save screen real estate which is good
[12:33] <penguin42> but with sloppy focus it's a bit of a pita
[12:33] <gordonjcp> "oh, I need something from the menu"

[12:33] <gordonjcp> concentration gone
[12:34] <AlanBell> Bug #764905 is a great example of copying a mac where you shouldn't
[12:35] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: that never made sense, even on the Mac
[12:35] <gordonjcp> even the guy that designed it said it didn't make sense, it just ended up that way because people got used to doing it
[12:35] <Monsterwizard> sunday roast...anyone?
[12:36] <gordonjcp> Monsterwizard: I'm thinking pub lunch actually
[12:36] <AlanBell> Monsterwizard: duck here :)
[12:36]  * penguin42 just had breakfast
[12:36] <Monsterwizard> fish here???? :S
[12:36] <Monsterwizard> up late penguin42?
[12:36] <penguin42> Monsterwizard: I always do odd times at the weekend
[12:37] <Monsterwizard> fair deal
[12:37] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: I may go back to trying global menu, but I want to stage my changes
[12:37] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: the unity desktop is a lot to get used to
[12:37] <Monsterwizard> What cool things can I do with Ubuntu in a virtual box?
[12:38] <gordonjcp> I still haven't figured out how to get windows to show up without closing whatever is on top of them
[12:40] <DJones> AlanBell: Do you have any issues with brightness on boot? My brightness is at the lowest point at boot & I have to manually adjust brightness to get a usable screen every time, it doesn't save the updated setting
[12:40] <AlanBell> DJones: I have not noticed any issue with that
[12:40] <gordonjcp> how do you fix the close/minimise/maximise button at the top of the window?
[12:41] <ali1234> what's the bug for when the launcher doesn't pop out?
[12:41] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: "fix" how?
[12:41] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: they're on the wrong side
[12:41] <MartijnVdS> gordonjcp: no they're not. You windows-user you :)
[12:41] <ali1234> gordonjcp: install human-theme and use it
[12:41] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: what?
[12:41] <penguin42> brightness bugs are very often specific bios/hardware issues
[12:41] <AlanBell> ah, now that you do get used to!
[12:42] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: I haven't used Windows, I wouldn't know
[12:42] <DJones> AlanBell: Odd, the other thing I've noticed is that the terminal window font can't be changed on a permanent basis, each time it defaults to larger than I want & the setting doesn't stay fixed
[12:42] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: every other GUI I have used has them on the right side
[12:42] <gordonjcp> MartijnVdS: well, except NeXTSTEP which sort of did its own thing there
[12:42] <gordonjcp> but still had a close button on the right
[12:42] <AlanBell> DJones: my laptop key for changing brightnes does all or nothing, just a fast fade from one extreme to the other
[12:43]  * MartijnVdS never uses the buttons anyway
[12:43] <MartijnVdS> Ctrl+W :)
[12:43] <gordonjcp> DJones: yeah, the terminal font is huge
[12:43] <gordonjcp> AlanBell: I'm not really interested in "getting used to it"
[12:43] <ali1234> you never get used to it, trust me
[12:43] <ali1234> i've been using unity for 6 months, and i still haven't got used to it
[12:43] <gordonjcp> none of my other machines have got it like that, I don't want it on this one
[12:44] <ali1234> anyway i already told you how to fix it...
[12:45] <ali1234> you can't fix it for maximized windows though
[12:45] <AlanBell> sudo apt-get remove appmenu-gtk indicator-applet-appmenu indicator-appmenu
[12:45] <penguin42> gordonjcp: I have my terminal font sensible and it seems to be remembering it
[12:45] <AlanBell> ^^ breaks the global menu
[12:45] <gordonjcp> penguin42: I haven't tried adjusting it
[12:46] <Monsterwizard> is virtual bbox the best virtual machine?
[12:46] <AlanBell> Monsterwizard: it is a decent desktop virtual machine tool
[12:46] <penguin42> gordonjcp: I think there may have been a recent change in how X tries to guess the size/dpi of the monitor which changes some font sizes - I think it's given up believing what the monitor sometimes told it
[12:46] <gordonjcp> penguin42: heh
[12:47] <gordonjcp> I take it banshee is the new, improved rhythmbox?
[12:47] <AlanBell> no, banshee is the new rhythmbox
[12:48] <gordonjcp> oh :-/
[12:48] <gordonjcp> well it actually starts and runs, which is an improvement over rhythmbox any time I've tried it in the past couple of years
[12:48] <AlanBell> well, I dunno really I am hardly an expert on music things
[12:48]  * penguin42 pats Exaile
[12:48] <AndroUser> re all
[12:48] <AlanBell> hi AndroUser
[12:49] <pr0ph3t> sorry
[12:49] <pr0ph3t> it's just me
[12:49] <Monsterwizard> this is outragous
[12:49] <Monsterwizard> there's not IMAP for hotmail
[12:51] <pr0ph3t> I was wondering what do you use for vnc connections on the server side, I use Android vnc and I thought of using X11VNC server
[12:51] <jacobw> i don't think there's POP for hotmail either..
[12:51] <penguin42> x11vnc is for sharing existing desktop as I remember
[12:51] <pr0ph3t> there's POP3 Yes
[12:52] <gordonjcp> right, gnome-terminal is using the system fixed width font
[12:52] <Monsterwizard> :O Pop is useless,
[12:52] <pr0ph3t> get a Google account, or yahoo
[12:52] <gordonjcp> is there a way to change the fonts? IIRC it used to be in "appearance" in the settings but that's just got wallpaper stuff
[12:52] <pr0ph3t> you can get IMAP with those
[12:53] <pr0ph3t> so going back to my question, do you use ssh access instead to control the box from remote?
[12:54] <ali1234> yes, of course
[12:54] <jacobw> !ssh
[12:55] <jacobw> !sshd
[12:55] <gordonjcp> if I've got two terminals open, then clicking the box on the left side makes them both appear and whoosh about the screen
[12:55] <gordonjcp> how do I get them both to show up in the sidebar?
[12:56] <pr0ph3t> thanks jacobw
[12:56] <ali1234> you can't
[12:56] <ali1234> you can't do any of this stuff with unity
[12:57] <gordonjcp> :-/
[12:58] <gordonjcp> that is rapidly approaching dealbreaker-levels of annoying
[12:58] <ali1234> how did you possible only just notice this?
[12:58] <gordonjcp> ali1234: it's the first time I've used Ubuntu for about a year
[12:58] <pr0ph3t> so if setup properly ssh is much more secure than vnc, or is it just more powerful, i.e. gives you more control?
[12:58] <gordonjcp> and I didn't really use it much before that
[12:59] <gordonjcp> ali1234: well, not since the last LTS but one ;-)
[12:59] <ali1234> pr0ph3t: both, yes
[12:59] <gordonjcp> ali1234: the windows-whooshing-about thing is really irritating
[12:59] <gordonjcp> if I wanted to play Duck Hunt, I'd play Duck Hunt
[13:00] <ali1234> yes i know, it's rubbish
[13:00] <jacobw> different instances of the same program don't even number differently if you hold <super>
[13:00] <ali1234> it wouldn't be any where near as bad if they stayed in the same place each time, but they don't
[13:01] <gordonjcp> well, I'll give it another 20 minutes
[13:01] <gordonjcp> that'll be me having used it for an hour
[13:02] <gordonjcp> I think it's wipe and reinstall time though, this is bordering on unusable
[13:02] <jacobw> what did you use previously?
[13:02] <gordonjcp> XFCE4 on Arch
[13:02] <gordonjcp> I could probably just install xubuntu but that rather defeats the purpose of installing Ubuntu at all
[13:03] <ali1234> it would also be much less annoying if it didn't show every terminal window from every desktop, but again, it doesn't
[13:03] <gordonjcp> there is no way in hell I could ever explain how to use this to my Mum
[13:04] <gordonjcp> that's generally my basic criterion for working out what I'm going to install on computers for people
[13:04] <ali1234> i just ask them what they want
[13:05] <gordonjcp> ali1234: most people want "the Internet"
[13:05] <gordonjcp> which is why the iPad and various Android tablets are taking over from desktops
[13:05] <gordonjcp> but that's a whole 'nother can of worms
[13:05] <ali1234> yeah well if they say that i just tell them to buy a mac
[13:06] <gordonjcp> I don't really see the point in Macs unless you need Final Cut Pro
[13:06] <gordonjcp> you're paying over the odds for a cheap crappy Intel PC
[13:06] <jacobw> 'normal' people don't try to switch between terminal windows very often ;)
[13:06] <gordonjcp> in a cheap crappy case
[13:06] <gordonjcp> with an ugly and hard-to-use OS
[13:07] <ali1234> yeah well that's not my problem
[13:07]  * jacobw also doesn't find macs easy to use
[13:08] <gordonjcp> jacobw: I don't, mostly because the dock is incomprehensible to me and I find having the menu bar at the top of the screen incredibly distracting
[13:08] <gordonjcp> jacobw: it was fine in like System 7 when it was single-tasking to begin with ;-)
[13:09] <KrimZon> I don't like the application-oriented workspace-ignoring grouping of the dock
[13:11] <AlanBell> gordonjcp: you can middle click things in the launcher to create new instances of them, like terminal windows
[13:12] <ali1234> but there is no reasonable way to switch between them after you have done that
[13:12] <AlanBell> no, not if you like workspaces
[13:12] <ali1234> whether you use them or not
[13:12] <ali1234> also unity now gets slower and slower the longer you use it
[13:12] <AlanBell> don't see why they are not listed in the right click menu of the launcher
[13:12] <ali1234> anyone else had windows get stuck?
[13:13] <ali1234> where you drag the window... and it just doesn't move at all?
[13:13] <AlanBell> yes, I had some windows get non-draggable earlier
[13:13] <ali1234> it's really annoying
[13:13] <ali1234> also the expose is showing white rectangles instead of the window contents
[13:13] <MartijnVdS> alt+drag tends to always work for me
[13:13] <AlanBell> thought it was because I was messing with ccsm at the time
[13:13] <ali1234> basically unity is now more buggy than it was in natty
[13:14] <ali1234> and not even any attempt to fix any of the design flaws
[13:14] <jacobw> does anyone own an x220?
[13:14] <gordonjcp> this is really slow, too
[13:14] <gordonjcp> at least they've toned down the eyewatering drop shadows from natty
[13:14] <ali1234> they still show up in screenshots like they did before though
[13:15] <gordonjcp> hm, no UPNP in banshee, but it *does* have DAAP?
[13:15] <gordonjcp> weird
[13:15] <ali1234> it has upnp as well
[13:15] <AlanBell> I miss the big shadows :)
[13:15] <ali1234> look for dlna or something
[13:15] <gordonjcp> yeah, I was
[13:15] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: only in alpha right?
[13:15] <ali1234> what is only in alpha?
[13:16] <MartijnVdS> UPNP+Banshee?
[13:16] <AlanBell> I do think unity is better than it used to be
[13:17] <MartijnVdS> I type too fast for alt+F2
[13:17] <gordonjcp> hm
[13:17] <ali1234> unity design hasn't changed since natty
[13:17] <ali1234> some bugs have been fixed
[13:18] <gordonjcp> ah, okay
[13:18] <ali1234> like the displayed maximized windows
[13:18] <ali1234> but there are a whole load of new ones that are just as bad/worse
[13:18] <gordonjcp> Banshee apparently doesn't support UPNP according to a mailing list posting from June
[13:18] <ali1234> weird, i'm sure i have seen a dlna plugin for it
[13:18] <ali1234> maybe i imagined it
[13:18] <gordonjcp> so I need to use a non-standard and patent-encumbered DAAP server to play music on my Ubuntu system ;-)
[13:18] <ali1234> banshee sucks anyway
[13:19] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: it's a GSoC'11 item
[13:19] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: http://topfs2.wordpress.com/2011/04/29/gsoc-2011-banshee-upnp-serverclient-integration/
[13:19] <ali1234> slowest audio player i've ever used
[13:19] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: maybe you remembered that bit
[13:19] <ali1234> no i probably remembered it from rhythmbox
[13:19] <MartijnVdS> yay coherence. Makes rb as stable as banshee
[13:20] <ali1234> i've never seen a upnp system that works properly anyway
[13:20] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: My Synology NAS + my PS3 and TV work fine together
[13:20] <ali1234> and besides, if you want to stream music on ubuntu, you are supposed to buy a ubuntu one account
[13:20] <ali1234> can't have anything interfering with the revenue stream now can we?
[13:21] <MartijnVdS> cynical much?
[13:21] <gordonjcp> this all reminds me of the dashboard on the Berlingos at work
[13:21] <ali1234> go ask any upnp developer about how much workarounds they need to make ps3 work
[13:21] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: sure
[13:21] <jacobw> gordonjcp: citroen?
[13:21] <gordonjcp> ye
[13:22] <gordonjcp> five firmware updates later, and you can control the MP3 player from the GPS screen, the steering wheel buttons, the display softkeys or the front of the stereo
[13:22] <ali1234> basically any device that does not sell as much as the ps3 needs just as many workarounds, but doesn't get them because there is no interest
[13:22] <gordonjcp> but you still cannot tell it that you want to avoid motorways
[13:23] <gordonjcp> and you can't disable the reversing beeper any more
[13:24] <gordonjcp> what's especially annoying is three updates ago you could have it automatically not beep in reverse depending on what time it was
[13:24] <gordonjcp> I want an open-source car
[13:25] <MartijnVdS> so don't get the firmware updates?
[13:25] <ali1234> just buy a car from 1993
[13:26] <ali1234> no computer control
[13:26] <gordonjcp> ali1234: I have a car from 1988, and a car from 1981
[13:26] <ali1234> well, there you go then
[13:26] <gordonjcp> the only electronic thing in the one from 1981 is the clock on the dashboard, and I know it doesn't work
[13:26]  * MartijnVdS has one from '02
[13:26] <gordonjcp> (actually, the clock in the '88 one is broken too)
[13:27] <ali1234> great, you can no longer use human theme because it's gtk2
[13:29] <ali1234> so where can i get a theme for gtk3 that is actually good?
[13:31] <ali1234> ah, gnome-themes-standard
[13:31] <ali1234> which installs only 1 theme
[13:32] <ali1234> hmm
[13:33] <ali1234> you now have to log out and log in again to make the window decoration update
[13:34] <ali1234> not that you'd ever want to change it since there are no good themes for gtk3
[13:40] <ali1234> all i want is a theme where the focussed window title bar is a different colour
[13:43] <gordonjcp> all I want is for music playback to work in Ubuntu, but I'm not there yet
[13:43] <gordonjcp> oh, sod it, I'll just use sshfs
[13:56] <gordonjcp> this is just ridiculous, banshee doesn't do upnp, *nothing* does DAAP apart from banshee
[14:06] <ali1234> there is no way to maximize a window on the second monitor with gnome-shell. genius
[14:06] <X3N> gordonjcp: totem, rythmbox and media-explorer all do upnp
[14:06] <X3N> ali1234: double click the title bar
[14:07] <X3N> or drag to the top of the screen
[14:07] <ali1234> not only that but multiple workspaces don't affect the second monitor
[14:07] <ali1234> so any window on the second monitor is always on the screen
[14:07] <X3N> yep, one of my favourite features
[14:07] <gordonjcp> X3N: weirdly enough, disabling daap and re-enabling it in banshee has brought it to life
[14:08] <ali1234> lets see how well it handles full screen apps
[14:09] <ali1234> i notice the gnome-shell makes it even harder than unity to open two terminal windows on at the same time
[14:11] <X3N> "open new window" ?
[14:12] <ali1234> where is that?
[14:12] <X3N> right click on the icon
[14:13] <X3N> or middle click to open new window on new workspace
[14:14] <AlanBell> friend brought round a broken windows laptop, now installing oneiric on it :)
[14:14] <AlanBell> one way or another they won't come back with it
[14:14] <ali1234> lol
[14:15] <ali1234> "worst computer repair ever, would not use again"
[14:15] <AlanBell> or, yay, my laptop just works
[14:15] <AlanBell> one or the other :)
[14:16] <AlanBell> it was an ebay purchase apparently
[14:16] <AlanBell> old tecra with 256MB ram and a celeron processor (now has 1GB from my box of bits)
[14:16] <ali1234> looooool
[14:16] <ali1234> ubuntu will not run well on that
[14:17] <AlanBell> better than a second hand windows
[14:17] <AlanBell> live CD works ok
[14:17] <ali1234> it won't run better than XP on that
[14:17] <ali1234> it will probably run significantly worse
[14:17] <ali1234> booting up to a desktop doesn't say much
[14:18] <AlanBell> it has a broken XP on it, which hasn't run since purchase
[14:18] <ali1234> so it has all the old owners files on it?
[14:18] <AlanBell> yeah, and their malware no doubt
[14:18] <ali1234> yeah
[14:18] <ali1234> just wipe it and restore windows
[14:18] <ali1234> nothing else is gonna work on a machine that old
[14:19] <AlanBell> don't have windows restore disks
[14:19] <ali1234> you don't need them
[14:19] <ali1234> if it isn't on the HD just get them from MSDN
[14:19] <AlanBell> don't have MSDN
[14:20] <AlanBell> and don't really want windows
[14:20] <Monsterwizard> how come?
[14:20] <Monsterwizard> windows is ok
[14:20] <AlanBell> it might come back!
[14:20] <gordonjcp> stick Haiku on it
[14:20] <Monsterwizard> Windows is the misunderstood OS
[14:20] <ali1234> put gnu hurd on it
[14:20] <AlanBell> I don't support windows
[14:20] <ali1234> i guarantee it wont come back
[14:21] <AlanBell> ali1234: I want it to at least *leave*
[14:21] <ali1234> i will support windows if the price right
[14:21] <ali1234> but only until it leaves my possesion
[14:21] <ali1234> if it comes back it's wipe time
[14:21] <ali1234> billable hours \o/
[14:21] <ali1234> gnome-shell notifications pop up ad disappear as soon as you press a key
[14:22] <AlanBell> "friend of wife" is not a billable customer
[14:22] <ali1234> annoying if one pops up while you are typing
[14:22] <gordonjcp> thunderbird totally fails to work
[14:22] <ali1234> thunderbird is rubbish
[14:22] <gordonjcp> well yeah
[14:22] <ali1234> it's still better than evolution though
[14:23] <gordonjcp> tbh it was a bad choice including it
[14:23] <ali1234> well what else are they going to do? "sorry, there is no good email client on linux"
[14:23] <gordonjcp> well evolution has had a bug with HTML email that has made it unusable for about five years
[14:23] <ali1234> evolution just crashes every time i try to use it
[14:23] <gordonjcp> receive an HTML email, try to reply to it as non-HTML, get all sorts of crazy formatting
[14:23] <ali1234> sometimes it doesn't even crash. sometimes it doesn't even respond to any input at all
[14:25] <gordonjcp> something that was as usable and functional as Eudora about ten years ago would be nice
[14:26] <AlanBell> I use thunderbird as my main email client
[14:27] <AlanBell> lack of exchange support is either a dealbreaker for some people, or of no relevance whatsoever to everyone else
[14:29] <ali1234> wow even the gnome fallback is terrible now
[14:29] <ali1234> why is the clock in the middle of the panel?
[14:29] <ali1234> and why is the panel so ugly?
[14:30] <jacobw> ali1234 in wonderland :P
[14:30] <ali1234> lol notifications are messed up as well
[14:31] <ali1234> well i guess linux no longer has a usable desktop enviroment
[14:32] <AlanBell> people have put a lot of time and effort into breaking that stuff
[14:32] <ali1234> no doubt in gnome 3.4 they will claim that they are removing it because "nobody uses it"
[14:33] <ali1234> which will be true
[14:33] <AlanBell> probably
[14:33] <ali1234> nobody will wnt to use this because it is completely crippled
[14:34] <ali1234> does xfce use gtk3 now?
[14:35] <ali1234> the quality of free software was much higher when developers were writing it just for themselves
[14:35] <AlanBell> unity with a sane lens for launching applications and more predictable window management would be just fine
[14:36] <ali1234> instead of some imagined, half-retarded "normal user"
[14:36] <AlanBell> now they write it for people who think dragging a USB device to the rubbish bin should "eject" it
[14:38] <ali1234> hah
[14:38] <ali1234> if it were up to me,dragging a usb device to the rubbish bin would permanently brick it
[14:38] <AlanBell> when they get people in for user experience testing you would think they would allow them to sober up first
[14:39] <ali1234> right time to try xfce
[14:39] <AlanBell> how are you planning to do that?
[14:40] <gordonjcp> is there a way to make a specific terminal (or any other window, really) have a separate square on the strip at the side?
[14:40] <ali1234> oh dear
[14:40] <ali1234> is it really so hard to pick the right font size?
[14:41] <AlanBell> gordonjcp: I don't think so, I think gord did the stacking logic
[14:45] <ali1234> any idea what DPI i have to use to make this ubuntu font not look dirty? 96, hinting slight?
[14:46] <ali1234> what font size does gnome use?
[14:46] <AlanBell> I set my terminal to Ubuntu Mono 10
[14:46] <ali1234> ugh, this is total fail
[14:46] <ali1234> 10 pt font is about 3 millimeters high in xfce
[14:47] <ali1234> even when i force dpi it is still significantly small than it is under gnome
[14:47] <ali1234> and of course only about 50% of the programs in xfce actually honour the font size
[14:47] <ali1234> so everything looks like a mess if you change it from the default
[14:47] <ali1234> if i wanted this i would use KDE
[14:48] <ali1234> haha xfce has a theme called "ambiance" that looks nothing like the ubuntu one
[14:49] <ali1234> and also, i can tell it is using gtk3 because all the programs have a blank square in the bottom right where the resizer thing should be
[14:49] <penguin42> ali1234: Ah that's happened for years; it's normally after you've done an update or a theme change
[14:49] <ali1234> it has't happened for years
[14:50] <ali1234> it only started happening when gtk3 introduced the mandatory resizer
[14:50] <penguin42> fine, it's happened to me for years
[14:50] <ali1234> then you have been using gnome3 for years
[14:51] <ali1234> xfce is the first desktop i;ve tried where it is possible to tell which window is focussed
[14:51] <ali1234> so it has that going for it
[14:51] <ali1234> pity about the font rendering
[14:53] <ali1234> hey look at that, notify-osd doesn't respect font settings
[15:06] <X3N> whining >> /dev/null
[15:07] <ali1234> whining about whining ^
[15:07] <ali1234> whining^2
[15:07] <AlanBell> metawhining
[15:08] <AlanBell> X3N: discussing issues discovered prior to filing informative bug reports
[15:08] <ali1234> i've already reported all these bugs
[15:09] <AlanBell> chances are that the reports already exist
[15:09] <ali1234> i reported them when natty was released
[15:10]  * AlanBell finds a problem with the grid snap thing and dual monitors
[15:11] <AlanBell> if you try to do a half maximise on the edge between the two monitors it shows the yellow highlight where it is going to put it, then half maximises it on the other monitor
[15:11] <ali1234> AlanBell: i reported that bug against natty during beta phase
[15:11] <AlanBell> sometimes
[15:12] <ali1234> grid plugin is so messed up it is unbelievable
[15:12] <ali1234> supposedly it causes the no show launcher too
[15:12] <ali1234> i suspect it causes the "1 pixel over the edge so i'm not going to show you that window" problem
[15:18] <jacobw> cal lightman is using openoffice with bluecurve icons in lie to me :|
[15:19]  * AlanBell tries to parse what jacobw said
[15:19] <jacobw> i'm not sure if recognising icon sets in tv programmes is healthy :P
[15:19] <Joeb454> probably not the healthiest of things, no
[15:19] <Joeb454> but at least you have good eyesight and memory ;)
[15:19] <AlanBell> "lie to me" is a TV programme? "cal lightman" is a character?
[15:20] <jacobw> correct AlanBell
[15:20] <AlanBell> parsing win \o/
[15:20] <jacobw> :)
[15:21] <ali1234> bah i give up
[15:21] <ali1234> going back to unity
[15:24] <ali1234> why is gnome the only system that can set fonts to a consistent size?
[15:33] <ali1234> is libreoffice supposed to work with appmenu?
[15:33] <stgraber> yes, if you install an additional package
[15:33] <ali1234> which package?
[15:33] <stgraber> lo-menubar
[15:33] <ali1234> what other apps need a special package?
[15:34] <ali1234> except for firefox
[15:35] <stgraber> I think that's pretty much it for what's supported. gtk/qt already have it, firefox/thunderbird have an extension and libreoffice has a plugin (though that's the only one that's not installed by default for some reason)
[15:35] <gordonjcp> what's really annoying is how if you've got music playing and something noisy pops up in firefox, you hear that too
[15:36] <gordonjcp> also, the "online accounts" thing is a bit useless
[15:36] <gordonjcp> it only supports google
[15:36] <ali1234> it supports google?
[15:37] <ali1234> what does it do if you add your google account?
[15:37] <ali1234> how do i get rid of these damn scrollbars?
[15:37] <gordonjcp> no idea, I couldn't give a toss about google
[15:37] <gordonjcp> yahoo! messenger would be nice though
[15:40] <ali1234> gnome-settings-daemon has started refusing to hand out themes. reboot time i think
[15:40] <Joeb454> ali1234: gordonjcp it syncs contacts and calendars from Google, I believe, and Google Talk
[15:40] <ali1234> syncs them with what?
[15:40] <ali1234> i removed empathy and thunderbird
[15:40] <gordonjcp> Joeb454: great, now how do I get Yahoo! messenger?
[15:41] <Joeb454> your local contacts/calendar, afaik.
[15:41] <Joeb454> gordonjcp: pass, I haven't used Yahoo messenger for years, sorry
[15:41] <gordonjcp> Joeb454: I can't think of any combination of circumstances where I'd ever find syncing stuff with Google useful
[15:41] <ali1234> lol yahoo
[15:41] <ali1234> all the privacy concerns of google, except the services are worse
[15:41] <gordonjcp> the only reason I have a Google account at all is because I have an Android phone, and when I get shot of that I'll get rid of google
[15:42]  * penguin42 likes being able to get to his calendar, and bookmarks remotely
[15:42] <ali1234> but how do i see my google calendar with this?
[15:42] <ali1234> or email... or chat
[15:43] <gordonjcp> okay, so the long and short of it is, Ubuntu 11.10 is broken
[15:43] <ali1234> yeah
[15:43] <ali1234> so was 11.04
[15:43] <ali1234> this is not really news to anyone
[15:43] <gordonjcp> it's like any other Linux, but it does less, and what it does manage to do, it does badly
[15:45] <ali1234> well here's the thing
[15:45] <ali1234> unity is better than KDE, and it is better than gnome3
[15:46] <ali1234> and it shouldn't be necessary to even mention that it is better than all the half finished, 10 years out of date window managers
[15:46] <ali1234> but i will anyway
[15:46] <AlanBell> I think it is now at the point where 6 months work could make it really good for 12.04
[15:46] <ali1234> because otherwise someone will suggest i switch to fluxbox or something
[15:46] <ali1234> or windowmaker
[15:46] <ali1234> or fvwm95
[15:46] <gordonjcp> I give up
[15:46] <ali1234> AlanBell: iow exactly where it was 6 months ago?
[15:46] <KrimZon> I was trying the xubuntu beta
[15:47] <gordonjcp> I want to send a link to someone who uses Yahoo! messenger, and there is literally no way to do it
[15:47] <KrimZon> it's alright except seems to overheat my laptop more easily
[15:47] <ali1234> gordonjcp: install pidgin
[15:47] <ali1234> empathy is rubbish
[15:47] <KrimZon> and I couldn't get it to connect by sftp to my server in the file manager
[15:47] <KrimZon> which is important because I stream all my actual stuff from it
[15:47] <gordonjcp> ali1234: there's already a thing that looks like it should be for chat stuff
[15:48] <gordonjcp> why doesn't it work?
[15:48] <ali1234> yes, it's called empathy, it's garbage, uninstall it
[15:48] <ali1234> it doesn't work because the whole way it is architected is broken
[15:49] <ali1234> empathy is a frontend for telepathy
[15:49] <ali1234> telepathy was designed by nokia to use for messaging on mobile phones
[15:49] <ali1234> telepathy is really good at that
[15:49] <ali1234> empathy is a frontend that tries to make it into a general purpose instant messaging system, but completely fails
[15:49] <ali1234> because it is designed by mac users who love adium
[15:50] <shauno> I love adium :)
[15:50] <ali1234> do you use it for irc?
[15:50] <shauno> hell no
[15:51] <shauno> I've never seen an IM make the transition to irc gracefully
[15:53] <ali1234> pidgin handles irc as well as anyone could need
[15:54] <ali1234> anyway i need to reboot
[15:54] <ali1234> the session thingy is telling me i need to reboot to finish the upgrade that i didn't do
[15:57] <ali1234> what ever happened to gimp single window mode?
[15:57] <ali1234> gimp is unusable with unity :(
[15:57] <ali1234> single window mode would work much better
[15:57] <gordonjcp> ali1234: presumably the people working on it had a sudden flash of cluefulness and realised what a shockingly poor idea it would be
[15:58] <ali1234> not really
[15:58] <gordonjcp> since every mockup seems to be falling into the same trap as Photoshop
[15:58] <gordonjcp> which is the most astoundingly retarded user interface in the world
[15:58] <ali1234> i can't see a reason why i would want to put the toolbox on a different workspace than the image i'm working on
[15:58] <ali1234> which is what always ends up happening
[15:59] <ali1234> i suppose i could just run it inside xephyr
[15:59] <gordonjcp> YO DAWG I put a window manager in your window so it looks like you've got a root window in your root window
[15:59] <ali1234> but that breaks menus
[15:59] <penguin42> gimp seems to run OK in it here
[15:59] <penguin42> ali1234: What particular breakage ?
[16:00] <ali1234> last time i tried to run anything in xephyr on ubuntu, it had no menu because there was nothing to receive the global menu nonsense
[16:00] <ali1234> i reported a bug about it
[16:01] <ali1234> bug 774586
[16:03] <ali1234> yep, still happens
[16:03] <ali1234> also xephyr is now incredibly slow for some reason
[16:04] <ali1234> unsetting that var actually works
[16:05] <ali1234> sadly it doesn't work in the main desktop
[16:06] <ali1234> hmm maybe it does...
[16:06] <ali1234> yeah, it does, as long as no windows from that app already open :)
[16:11] <gordonjcp> well, I'm getting way more graphics corruption in Ubuntu than on Arch
[16:12] <gordonjcp> http://askubuntu.com/questions/50966/screen-corruption-with-946g-82945g-gz <- pretty much this
[16:12] <penguin42> gordonjcp: Which graphics card?
[16:13] <gordonjcp> Intel 82945
[16:13] <ali1234> who can explain what is going on here: http://paste.ubuntu.com/704953/
[16:14] <penguin42> gordonjcp: Hmm I run with a 945gm here and it's OK - do you run multiple monitors ?
[16:14] <gordonjcp> ali1234: you're still using the first ls it found
[16:14] <gordonjcp> penguin42: nope
[16:14] <ali1234> gordonjcp: see output of 'which ls'
[16:14] <penguin42> ali1234: Try doing hash -r
[16:14] <ali1234> nice
[16:14] <ali1234> thanks :)
[16:15] <penguin42> ali1234: It doesn't bother searching the path every time if it already knew where it was from last time
[16:16] <ali1234> next question: why doesn't this work: http://paste.ubuntu.com/704956/
[16:17] <ali1234> just running "/bin/sh gedit" does the same thing, ie nothing, it just hangs
[16:18] <ali1234> probably better if i do this with the .desktop actually
[16:20] <ali1234> hmm is synaptic supposed to have global menus?
[16:21] <ali1234> maybe it can't cos it is running as root
[16:23] <ali1234> oh i see the problem, infinite loop, lol
[16:25] <ali1234> yay
[16:27] <ali1234> great. so now i can decide on a per app basis, if the app uses global menus or not
[16:27] <ali1234> with the default being to use them
[16:28] <gordonjcp> o_O
[16:28] <gordonjcp> python *2*?
[16:28] <ali1234> yes, python 2
[16:28] <ali1234> python 3 is weird
[16:29] <gordonjcp> ugh
[16:29] <ali1234> you can install it if you want
[16:29] <ali1234> python is good like that
[16:29] <ali1234> side by side installs
[16:29] <gordonjcp> yeah, that's how Arch does it
[16:29] <ali1234> it's not installed by default because nothing uses it
[16:29] <gordonjcp> Python 3 for normal stuff, with Python 2 for unsupported legacy stuff
[16:30] <Azelphur> Python 2 isn't unsupported o.O
[16:30] <ali1234> isn't arch basically gentoo for people who think gentoo is too stable?
[16:30] <gordonjcp> it's going away pretty soon
[16:30] <Azelphur> ...no it's not
[16:31] <ali1234> lol no
[16:31] <ali1234> python 2 is not going anywhere
[16:31] <Azelphur> There are many major huge libraries that are vitally important, that havn't even begun to be ported to python 3 yet
[16:32] <penguin42> why do scripting libraries insist on making themselves unfortunately incompatible just as lots of stuff starts using them
[16:32] <ali1234> because if they didn't we'd still all be stuck with perl
[16:33] <gordonjcp> Azelphur: like?
[16:33] <gordonjcp> Python 2 is supposed to be EOL by the end of this month...
[16:33] <ali1234> that'sa good one
[16:35] <gordonjcp> http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.7/
[16:35] <ali1234> Python 2.7 is scheduled to be the last major version in the 2.x series before it moves into an extended maintenance period.
[16:35] <ali1234> that doesn't sound like EOL to me
[16:35] <gordonjcp> oh, it is
[16:35] <ali1234> EOL = we're never going to touch that code ever again
[16:35] <gordonjcp> which is pretty much the case
[16:36] <ali1234> except that it isn't
[16:36] <gordonjcp> "bug fixes, if someone can be bothered submitting patches"
[16:36] <gordonjcp> right, fine, stick with your obsolete Python 2 stuff
[16:37] <ali1234> i don't see twisted for python 3
[16:37] <gordonjcp> you say that like it's a bad thing
[16:38] <ali1234> django doesn't work on python 3 either
[16:40] <ali1234> it's extremely bad if you run a large service which is totally dependent on it
[16:40] <ali1234> here's a handy list i just found http://python3wos.appspot.com/
[16:41] <ali1234> hmm i didn't even know mock was written in python
[16:42] <gordonjcp> I used to use django but I'm moving away from it
[16:47] <MunkyJunky> Hey all - I had a HDD as ext4, put 120Gb of media on it, then Ubuntu decided it was an unrecognised file type and I can't mount it. Is there any way I can get my data back? Force it to mount as ext4?
[16:48] <ali1234> as always it depends
[16:48] <ali1234> the first thing you should do is copy the raw partition to another drive so you can work on it without causing further data loss
[16:49] <MunkyJunky> There's the thing - I have 80Gb free on my Ubuntu partition, and 50Gb free on my Win7 partition, but I dont have 120Gb on 1 disk spare.
[16:49] <ali1234> "delete windows"
[16:49] <MunkyJunky> Tempting, but it has more stable wireless than Ubuntu
[16:49] <ali1234> stop using wifi as well, wifi sucks
[16:50] <MunkyJunky> I don't have the option of not wifi, in student accommodation
[16:51] <ali1234> well you can try to repair it live but don't blame me if you just make it worse
[16:51] <ali1234> you should at least backup the mbr/partition table
[16:51] <MunkyJunky> If it all breaks, it'll be a mjorr pain, but it's all DVD rips ad such. I *can* rerip if I have to
[16:51] <MunkyJunky> I'd just really rather not, because it took a while to do
[16:52] <gordonjcp> MunkyJunky: is there an alternate superblock you can use?
[16:52] <ali1234> does the disk have read errors?
[16:52] <ali1234> does it make funny sounds?
[16:52] <ali1234> is it external USB?
[16:53] <MunkyJunky> The disk only appears if I go into admin > disk util. It's not appearing as a mountable drive in nautilus, and there are no funny sounds. Doesn't sound like it's dying.
[16:53] <gordonjcp> MunkyJunky: forget the GUI tools
[16:53] <MunkyJunky> Internal, SATA, exactly the same mode as the other 2 drives in my PC
[16:53] <gordonjcp> put them utterly from your mind
[16:53] <MunkyJunky> Just saying, that's the only place I can see it
[16:53] <ali1234> dump partition table and pastebin it
[16:53] <gordonjcp> MunkyJunky: okay, what ali1234 says about copying the raw image onto another disk is a Good Idea right now
[16:54] <gordonjcp> even if you have to go and buy another disk
[16:54] <gordonjcp> 2TB is about 60 quid these days
[16:54] <gordonjcp> it's not like you're never going to need the space
[16:54] <gordonjcp> *anyway*
[16:54] <ali1234> it has to be bigger then the whole disk, not just the data on it
[16:54] <MunkyJunky> Yea, I'm thinking I'll be getting a new disk. I just want my data back first. ali1234, how do I get my partition table?
[16:55] <ali1234> sudo fdisk -l /dev/whatever
[16:55] <MunkyJunky> I assume thats some cmd I don't know.
[16:55] <MunkyJunky> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/704969/
[16:56] <ali1234> ok that looks fine
[16:56] <ali1234> sda1 really?
[16:56] <ali1234> it's really the primary?
[16:56] <MunkyJunky> That wasn't my coice, ubuntu throught that was a good idea.
[16:56] <MunkyJunky> *choice
[16:56] <ali1234> ok
[16:56] <MunkyJunky> my install is running of sdb
[16:57] <gordonjcp> ali1234: makes no odds really
[16:57] <ali1234> now do "sudo mount -t ext4 /dev/sda1 /mnt"
[16:57] <MunkyJunky> "mount: /dev/sda1 already mounted or /mnt busy"
[16:57] <ali1234> actually dont do that
[16:57] <ali1234> or... whatever
[16:57] <ali1234> it's already mounted?
[16:58] <ali1234> "mount"
[16:58] <ali1234> look for sda1
[16:58] <MunkyJunky> Nothing about sda1 in there
[16:58] <ali1234> what about mnt?
[16:59] <MunkyJunky> nope
[16:59] <ali1234> look on dmesg
[16:59] <ali1234> anything about sda, filesystems, etc
[17:01] <MunkyJunky> nothing about anything related in there that I can see
[17:01] <ali1234> pastebin all of it
[17:01] <MunkyJunky> just lots about my wireless
[17:02] <MunkyJunky> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/704975/
[17:03] <ali1234> are you using wireless channel 13?
[17:03] <MunkyJunky> God I hope not, should be on 11
[17:03] <ali1234> you might get better results on a different channel
[17:03] <ali1234> looks like you have CRDA problems
[17:04] <MunkyJunky> Is that wireless or HDD related?
[17:04] <ali1234> wireless
[17:04] <ali1234> i don't see any HDD problems
[17:04] <ali1234> can you pastebin the mount output as well please
[17:05] <MunkyJunky> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/704978/
[17:06] <ali1234> hmmmmmmm
[17:07] <ali1234> sudo mount -o ro -t ext4 /dev/sda1 /mnt
[17:07] <ali1234> pastebin full output of that please
[17:08] <MunkyJunky> "mount: /dev/sda1 already mounted or /mnt busy"
[17:09] <ali1234> try to mount it somewhere else
[17:10] <MunkyJunky> Wherever I try mount, it's the same error
[17:10] <ali1234> sudo fsck -N /dev/sda1
[17:12] <ali1234> i mean -n
[17:12] <MunkyJunky> fsck from util-linux-ng 2.17.2
[17:12] <MunkyJunky> [/sbin/fsck.ext2 (1) -- /dev/sda1] fsck.ext2 /dev/sda1
[17:13] <feisar> can I use --without-recommends with apt-get?
[17:13] <feisar> I'd like to install the ubuntu desktop and login screen on a server but not all the office stuff
[17:21] <MunkyJunky> So now I see why wireless sucks so much :/
[17:21] <ali1234> why?
[17:21] <MunkyJunky> I posted the last output you asked for, and then nothing happened, THEN I realised my wireless conked out.
[17:21] <MunkyJunky> Bloomin' thing.
[17:30] <gordonjcp> is there some way I'm missing to get Firefox to save its config between sessions in Ubuntu?
[17:30] <ali1234> what config?
[17:30] <gordonjcp> ali1234: just basic stuff, like setting middle-click-paste to load a url
[17:31] <ali1234> where do you configure that?
[17:31] <gordonjcp> about:config
[17:33] <ali1234> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2006/06/msg00650.html
[17:36] <gordonjcp> ali1234: tbh that's about the last broken thing I'm prepared to put up with
[17:36] <gordonjcp> it's easier just to nuke this machine and put Arch back on it
[17:43] <gordonjcp> ali1234: it's also not storing cookies, so I have to disable google instant every time, log into sites every time
[17:43] <gordonjcp> it doesn't store passwords
[17:43] <ali1234> your system sounds pretty messed up
[17:43] <penguin42> odd, I've never seen a ff be so disobedient - mine generally remembers previous state
[17:43] <gordonjcp> I deleted and recreated .mozilla
[17:44] <ali1234> mine remembers previous state even when i don't want it to
[17:44] <penguin42> ali1234: Can be very embarrassing
[17:44] <ali1234> any time i quit and restart it, i always get back all 800 tabs
[17:44] <ali1234> even though i specifically told it not to save tabs
[17:44] <penguin42> oh oh, ali1234 is another one that has the entire internet loaded into his browser
[17:44] <ali1234> the only time i quit FF is when i have too many tabs and don't want to close them all 1 at a time
[17:45] <ali1234> so it is annoying when they all come back
[17:45] <ali1234> i think the problem is that FF crashes 50% of then time instead of exiting normally
[17:45] <ali1234> so it thinks it crashed and tries to restore
[17:45] <mark_b> @ali1234 try the close all other tabs option
[17:45] <ali1234> but i have 20 windows as well
[17:46] <ali1234> unity makes window management so difficult that i just open new windows and forget about the old ones
[17:46] <ali1234> it's easier than trying to find the old one
[17:52] <gordonjcp> this is just rubbish
[18:12] <shauno> boy this place is cheery today
[18:12] <MartijnVdS> *\o/*
[18:18] <AlanBell> setting up oneiric for a 13 year old boy, what stuff should I put on it?
[18:18] <MartijnVdS> the internet
[18:19] <chrisccoulson> AlanBell, http://projects.gnome.org/nanny/ ? ;)
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> Humble Indie Bundle 1-5
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> or whatever they're called
[18:24] <zleap> AlanBell, games,
[18:25] <Pernig> possibly Skype and some way of getting on MSN?
[18:25] <Pernig> although the kids don't seem to use MSN so much these days
[18:25] <zleap> its msn live messenger or somethijng
[18:25] <AlanBell> chrisccoulson: not *my* 13 year old, I don't care what he looks at on the internet :)
[18:26] <AlanBell> zleap: yeah, I put the scummvm games and openarena on it so far
[18:26] <zleap> i guess that is his parents responsibilkity, however are they able to set up content filtering
[18:26] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: World of Goo?
[18:26] <zleap> open arena is popular at the rugby club, had a few kids playing that today (under 11's)
[18:27] <AlanBell> doubt it zleap, but really I have no guilt about letting him use the real internet
[18:27] <zleap> ok
[18:27] <AlanBell> MartijnVdS: good suggestions, but I want to stick to stuff in the repos initially
[18:28] <zleap> and filterng can get int eh way sometimes,  i remembher helping at a primary school trying to research the plymouth blitz was a real issue
[18:28] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: WoG is in the "paid" software-centre bit
[18:29] <Pernig> AlanBell: i can lend you the key to my humble bundles if you like
[18:29] <AlanBell> ah, and that is not populated on oneiric yet it seems
[18:29] <AlanBell> Pernig: I will tell him about the humble bundles
[18:29] <Pernig> ok
[18:30] <zleap> scratch is good if he wants to learn programming / animation stuff
[18:31] <AlanBell> can't find that in the search oddly enough, I am sure scratch is in the repos somewhere
[18:31] <shauno> a 13yo?  rename firefox to facebook.  set fb as the home page.  you're set.
[18:31] <zleap> AlanBell, yeah think it is, otherwise its scratch.mit.edu i think
[18:32] <AlanBell> ah, DVD playback, need to set that up
[18:33] <zleap> what about iphone or mp3 player stuff
[18:33] <shauno> I kinda miss the days where a valid answer was "nothing, the built-in basic interpreter will keep them entertained years"
[18:33] <zleap> no ipad
[18:33] <zleap> ipod
[18:33] <zleap> whjat ever the music thingy is
[18:33] <AlanBell> banshee, but that is installed by default
[18:33] <shauno> you don't really need an mp3 player anymore.  as long as flash works, they'll use youtube as one big jukebox
[18:34] <AlanBell> youtube and bbc iplayer both work fine
[18:34] <zleap> i click on install in software centre  to install a game and noting happens, could this have something to do with somepackages being in an inconsistant state
[18:35] <AlanBell> yes
[18:35] <AlanBell> !dvd
[18:37] <zleap> AlanBell, thanks i need t find some instructions that work to fix that
[18:44] <popey> of all the video formats why is it that nautilus can thumbnail my flv, mkv and mp4, but _not_ the OGV!
[18:46] <GirlyGirl> popey: Really?
[18:54] <GirlyGirl> bye
[19:06] <popey> yes GirlyGirl, really.
[19:23] <faiob> Hi all I have a problem with authentication of the update of synaptic esque someone has a solution to this problem?
[19:24] <brobostigon> faiob: pastebin the exact error messages for us please.
[19:24] <faiob> http://paste.ubuntu.com/705012/
[19:26] <faiob> :)
[19:26] <brobostigon> faiob: yes, apt is trying to pull packages from a repo, you dont have the ssl keys for.
[19:26] <brobostigon> just add the keys.
[19:26] <faiob> yes
[19:27] <faiob> but for dépot ubuntu lucid i don't know to do ... .
[19:27] <brobostigon> what is the repo addr, you are using?
[19:27] <faiob> http://archive.canonical.com/ubuntu
[19:30] <brobostigon> faiob: i would ignore the error, that is a valid and trusted repo. but there must be a matching key, for apt. and i dont remember what it is, or where to find it, but i would start with looking with help.ubuntu.com and the wiki.
[19:32] <faiob> OK the key for my ubuntu archive Automatic Signing Key is 437D05B5
[19:34] <brobostigon> faiob: add that, with the software sources app, i think.
[19:36] <Azelphur> hmm, Anyone know how to get keyboard volume control to work in XUbuntu?
[19:37] <faiob> who i do ?
[19:37] <Azelphur> default install when I use the volume control I get a slider, but no volume change.
[19:37] <directhex> faiob: archive.canonical.com is not an ubuntu repo. it contains only a few closed-source apps
[19:37] <directhex> i.e. the packages you're getting complaints about are *not* from archive.canonical.com
[19:39] <faiob> directhex: wget -q http://download.tuxfamily.org/glxdock/repository/cairo-dock.gpg -O- | sudo apt-key add -
[19:39] <faiob> it's for cairo but i'haven't cairo in my ubuntu
[19:39] <directhex> faiob: that adds the key for that specific cairo-dock repo. still doesn't host xulrunner-1.9.2
[19:40] <faiob> for my dépot ubuntu i do http://???.gpg -O- | sudo apt-key add -
[19:40] <directhex> the ubuntu-keyring package contains the ubuntu keyring files. reinstalling that should ensure that any valid ubuntu-signed repos are fine. http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=ubuntu-keyring
[19:41] <faiob> thank
[19:43] <faiob> thank-you very much i do
[19:51] <faiob> it's run after download the ubuntu-keyring with apt-update
[19:51] <faiob> :-D
[19:52] <faiob> good for me
[20:44] <constrictor> about to upgrade!!!
[20:45] <silner> constrictor, to the beta?
[20:45] <constrictor> it's past beta though isn't it
[20:46] <silner> Probably I haven't looked. I'm waiting
[20:46] <constrictor> sliner according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule we are in pre-release images with final coming out next week
[20:46] <constrictor> around this time it's generally stable
[20:47] <constrictor> but that's just me
[20:48] <ali1234> apport has been switched off in the last update
[20:48] <ali1234> so it's pretty much done
[20:48] <silner> Yeah I ought to grab it actually. I didn't really get on with 11.04 so I've lost touch a bit
[20:49] <ali1234> there isn't much difference
[20:49] <ali1234> if you didn't like 11.04 you won't like this either
[20:50] <silner> I've been using Lubuntu 11.04 and Fedora 15 Xfce - bit of new era refusenik I'm afraid
[20:51] <ali1234> i cannot get xfce to use the right font size
[20:51] <constrictor> ali1234: 11.04 or 11.10
[20:51] <ali1234> any
[20:52] <constrictor> are you using xubuntu or did you just install xfce?
[20:52] <ali1234> i just installed xfce
[20:52] <silner> ali1234, I've been with it too long to remember how I changed it now. I think I read something about changing it system wide including cli fonts
[20:53] <constrictor> i had to do mine individually
[20:53] <constrictor> so i went to system settings and changed the fonts there
[20:53] <ali1234> yes well the problem is that half of it... you can't change the fonts
[20:53] <silner> Actually I think I changed the sizes - was quite happy with font families
[20:53] <constrictor> and I had to change my font in the terminal profile settings
[20:53] <constrictor> as well as desktop settings
[20:53] <ali1234> so you can make the panels etc all use nearly the right font size
[20:53] <constrictor> that did it for me
[20:53] <constrictor> yeah
[20:53] <ali1234> but it is a tiny bit off and that totally screws up the hinting
[20:53] <ali1234> and then you have gaps in the middle of words and it just looks bad
[20:54] <ali1234> like KDE on a bad day
[20:54] <constrictor> mine seems fine
[20:54] <constrictor> lol
[20:54] <silner> But I'm using Xfce with Fedora. Probably not that different though
[20:54] <constrictor> ahhh
[20:54] <constrictor> i'm on xubuntu but that should not be an issues should it
[20:54] <constrictor> ?
[20:54] <ali1234> and then there's a bunch of things that don't have modifiable font size and those are unreadable because the font is abut 3mm high
[20:55] <constrictor> lol
[20:55] <silner> I have been told it's harder to find help for the buntus cos they change more from the default Xfce system, but I can't say I've noticed
[20:55] <ali1234> i don't need help
[20:55] <ali1234> all i require is that the software works properly
[20:56] <silner> I can't remember anything out of the ordinary with F15 Xfce ali1234 - what exactly was wrong with the fonts?
[20:56] <ali1234> well, you know hinting?
[20:57] <ali1234> it's wrong with xfce
[20:57] <ali1234> because the screen dpi is totally wrong
[20:57] <ali1234> and even if you override it
[20:57] <ali1234> you can't get the font to be the right size
[20:57] <ali1234> 10 pt is too small and 11 pt is too big
[20:58] <ali1234> and since it is off by less than 1 pixel that screws up the hinting
[20:58] <silner> I don't think that problem exists in F15 ali1234 - sorry I misunderstood you earlier
[20:58] <ali1234> yeah but i won't touch fedora
[20:59] <silner> I didn't know what the term hinting meant. I was ignorant there :(
[20:59] <constrictor> I use 9 pt
[20:59] <constrictor> :)
[21:01] <silner> I'll have to look to see what I use
[21:01] <silner> Looks like 10pt
[21:02] <silner> I used Fedora for the laptop mainly cos it supported my pcmcia wifi card and Ubuntu 11.04 didn't
[21:04] <ali1234> that makes no sense
[21:04] <ali1234> drivers are a question of kernel support
[21:04] <ali1234> picking a whole distro on the basis of which kernel version is has is just silly
[21:05] <constrictor> ali1234: i'll have to agree with silner that it's not just about the kernel
[21:05] <silner> Do they defintely have the same kernel version number though?
[21:05] <ali1234> it doesn't matter
[21:05] <ali1234> backporting drivers is easy
[21:05] <constrictor> if it was there'd be only one linux distro
[21:05] <silner> Surely things get added in later kernels?
[21:05] <ali1234> there's a whole package for it
[21:05] <silner> It's not a big deal to change distros though ali1234 ?
[21:06] <ali1234> of course not
[21:06] <ali1234> but what you've done is like choosing a car based on the tyres it comes with
[21:07] <silner> Besides, I could find any info on Edup pcmcia cards ali1234
[21:07] <silner> So it wasn't easy for me to see hw to make it works
[21:07] <ali1234> cardbus is plug and play compatible
[21:07] <ali1234> the brand name of the card is irrelevant
[21:08] <ali1234> all that matters is what chipset it uses
[21:08] <silner> All I can say it I tried it in both and only one worked and it was dual booting at the time
[21:12] <davmor2> czajkowski: hello fancy putting Ireland and England out of the cup you muppet :D
[21:13] <faiob> hi all always me, after setup with synaptic the packtage elfutils, i don't found elfutils source directory in my ubuntu 10.04 LTS , peapol know?
[21:14] <faiob> http://paste.ubuntu.com/705068/
[21:17] <davmor2> faiob: the ii at the front means that the package is installed
[21:17] <silner> ali1234, I found some solutions but they all involved using ndiswrapper http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1369920
[21:18] <davmor2> faiob: the source folder might not be called elfutils
[21:18] <ali1234> well the first thing you should know is that ubuntu forums are full of bad advice
[21:18] <faiob> davmor2 thank you
[21:18] <davmor2> faiob: try opening synaptic and right click on the package and select installed files
[21:19] <faiob> but who i doing for found
[21:19] <davmor2> faiob: that should give you a break down of what files and folder were installed by the package
[21:19] <silner> ali1234, I don't doubt it, but what I did notice was on Ubuntu users were having the problem - that's what got me curious to try another distro - as you say it should be easy to solve - but I failed and I couldn't see any successes, by searching
[21:20] <ali1234> like i said the only thing that matters is what kernel modules you have
[21:21] <silner> ali1234, Then Ubuntu must have skipped the right kernel because it worked with F14 and F15 and Zenwalk actually
[21:23] <silner> ali1234, I always meant to try it with Debian unstable out of curiosity but I never got around to it
[21:24] <silner> ali1234, Anyway that's the only hardware issue I've had, so I'm not up in arms about it and I've grown to like Fedora (without hating Ubuntu) so it was a useful experience
[21:30] <bigcalm> What happens in 2 days, 7.5 hours?
[21:31] <AlanBell> we don't know yet bigcalm
[21:31] <bigcalm> That's terrible
[21:31] <AlanBell> or didn't know, last time I checked in #awholenewworld
[21:31] <AlanBell> it might be the aliens landing
[21:32] <bigcalm> I for one welcome our alien overlords
[21:33] <ali1234> i'm guessing the answer won't be "hey, we fixed all the bugs"
[21:33] <bigcalm> heh
[21:34]  * constrictor is away: Coffee break
[21:34] <bigcalm> 6am Wednesday. Don't think I'll get up early just to find out
[22:31] <gord> i think he is broken...
[22:35] <phillw> I'm sure the nice people @ freenode would explain :P
[22:35] <phillw> that's a good k-line :)
[22:35] <daftykins> what's that?
[22:37] <popey> ask LjL
[22:38] <daftykins> no i'm asking here!
[22:38] <popey> he is here
[22:39] <daftykins> nevermind then.
[22:41] <phillw> daftykins: for people to be k-lined, there is a good reason. That is the best I can say without knowing why. A K-line is a full ban from freenode (not just ubuntu channels etc).
[22:42] <shauno> having 12 copies of the same person is usually a good reason
[22:42] <daftykins> nah i just joined so i don't even know who got k-lined, let alone why ;)
[22:42] <gordonjcp> gord: ping?
[22:43] <phillw> daftykins: none of the channel OPs bite, the last thing we want is to ban people. above channel OPs there is also governance. But if someone gets K-lined... it is for a darn good reason.
[22:44] <LjL> funkyHat was k-lined because he's a terrible troll and a danger to freenode
[22:44] <LjL> also, because his connection was misbehaving :P
[22:44] <daftykins> i have absolutely no idea what you're talking about
[22:44] <LjL> i dunno, i was summoned
[22:44] <daftykins> nevermind then, i'll go back to other channels :)
[22:45] <phillw> LjL: That was what I was thinking, but I do not hang around on the freenode area & only pop on briefly when summonsed... same as for the ubuntu-ops-team area. most of the time, we can hold our own areas and use our Ops.
[22:47] <daftykins> someone needs to get permanently assigned to rework #u-offtopic
[22:47] <daftykins> ;)
[22:48]  * LjL starts by banning you :P
[22:48] <daftykins> weee \o/
[22:49] <phillw> daftykins: I'm on #lubuntu-offtopic, there are only so many channels any of us can get involved with. We ask that the channels run themselves reasonably. :)
[22:49] <daftykins> to be honest i should remove it from my join
[22:51] <hamitron> what is the point in a room for ubuntu, where people talk about "other things"?
[22:51] <LjL> that's a good question, and one that has created more uprising than you can imagine :)
[22:53] <daftykins> well actually, if you talk about Linux'y stuff that isn't Ubuntu specific, in #ubuntu, you get moaned at
[22:53] <daftykins> so i thought that's what that channel should've been for ;x
[22:53] <hamitron> ah
[22:53] <daftykins> but instead people trashtalk 24/7 instead \o/
[22:53] <hamitron> worst I've done in #ubuntu is paste my password
[22:53] <hamitron> :/
[22:53] <LjL> daftykins: that's one possible intepretation
[22:53] <daftykins> hamitron: wewps!
[22:53] <LjL> daftykins: but not the one currently used
[22:54] <daftykins> LjL: naw?
[22:54] <hamitron> daftykins, I was expecting a kick, as it was a rude password
[22:54] <hamitron> :D
[22:54] <daftykins> ^_^
[22:55] <LjL> hamitron: sometimes when ops rolls eyes too hard they become unable to kick properly :<
[22:55] <hamitron> haha
[22:55] <LjL> it happened to me, i was looking for my eyes all over the room
[22:55] <LjL> well, not *looking* for
[22:55] <hamitron> feeling? ;/
[22:56] <LjL> twas squishy
[22:56] <hamitron> tbh, I never stayed in #ubuntu after that
[22:56] <hamitron> was too embarased
[22:56] <hamitron> and it felt cold in there
[22:58] <hamitron> but it gave me reason to change passwords anyway :)
[23:05] <phillw> hamitron: the idea for offtopic channels is for that. We have exchanged some wonderful recipes on ours. Some of which I've cooked... lovely!
[23:06] <hamitron> oh
[23:06] <hamitron> you've just won me over
[23:06] <hamitron> food ;)
[23:08] <daftykins> :D
[23:08] <daftykins> tonight i may do some more nutella on toast
[23:08] <phillw> hamitron: it was getting that much fun, that I did joke that I'd be holding a darning session for socks, and people were interested! But, yeah we do like swapping recipes.... As to getting the ingredients, the does need to internet :P
[23:08] <daftykins> O_.
[23:09] <phillw> Essence of smoke took a bit of finding :)