[00:05] <TheMuso> Yeah mono and a11y do not mix too well.
[00:06] <TheMuso> I wish we didn't rely on mono at all.
[06:42] <AlanBell> I don't think that had anything to do with mono+a11y as a combination, banshee just crashes hard when it crashes
[08:28] <AlanBell> release notes article pretty much done
[08:58] <AlanBell> http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/?p=128&shareadraft=4e96a83139805
[13:39] <AlanBell> Pendulum: published and on the planet
[13:42] <Pendulum> :)
[13:47] <Pendulum> should e-mail to our list and probably post to forums, too
[13:47] <Pendulum> do you want to do one and I'll do the other
[13:48] <Pendulum> ?
[13:48] <AlanBell> I have to pop out now
[13:48] <AlanBell> you get to claim the credit for all of it :)
[13:49] <Pendulum> hah
[13:52]  * Pendulum copies Ubuntu News on the e-mail
[14:04] <Pendulum> If anyone wants to RT http://twitter.com/#!/colona13/status/124485268643381250
[16:42] <webczat> Hello.
[16:43] <webczat> Are there many serious bugs I could find in the new ubuntu 11.10 regarding accessibility?
[16:51] <webczat> I mean I heart about some thunderbird crashing bugs, some gedit/etc bugs...
[16:53] <maco> webczat: the release notes are on ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com
[17:06]  * webczat sees
[17:06] <webczat> Why unyty3d is not accessible?
[17:07] <webczat> s/unity
[17:14] <webczat> Also, the inaccessibility of lightdm is a problem...
[17:41] <webczat> Is this a big problem if you have multiple accounts?
[17:43] <apinheiro> webczat, unity3d accessibility support for orca is work in progress
[17:43] <apinheiro> I was not able to finish the work before feature freeze
[17:43] <apinheiro> so it was not included
[17:43] <apinheiro> I created a ppa that include those branches:
[17:44] <apinheiro> https://launchpad.net/~apinheiro/+archive/unity-extra-a11y
[17:44] <webczat> yeah. what about the login manager?
[17:46] <apinheiro> webczat, sorry, I'm not a lightdm developer,  but I think that TheMuso were talking with them
[17:46] <apinheiro> not sure if gdm is an option anyway
[17:47] <webczat> the main problem is that if someone begins with linux, it'll seem somewhat strange that the login manager and unity 3d doesn't talk. is it required that we wait for all of this until ubuntu 12.04?
[17:47] <apinheiro> webczat, afaik, gdm is accessible
[17:47] <apinheiro> or was accessible at least, if it is not accessible now it is a regression
[17:48] <webczat> gdm is. but it isn't the default, unless I saw something wrong...
[17:50] <apinheiro> webczat, as I said, AFAIK, lightdm developers were working on a11y
[17:50] <apinheiro> so try to ask them
[17:51] <webczat> hmm where?
[17:51] <webczat> I mean is there any irc method of asking them?
[17:56] <webczat> also, which is the default? unity 2d or unity 3d? I mean when my graphic card supports 3d but i've enabled orca.
[17:57] <SeaJay> According to Alan's release notes, if you enable Orca during the install then the default desktop will be Unity 2D.
[18:00] <webczat> mhm
[18:12] <SeaJay> Well, that's how I read http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/oneiric-ocelot/.
[18:19] <webczat> Give me the exact part of the documnent that says this. I have problems with reading this, I go down using down arrows, then I hear "grayed" and it jumps to the top, so I probably missed some parts
[18:22] <webczat> SeaJay: ?
[18:23] <SeaJay> Ah, OK, let me see if I can cut it and paste it in here.
[18:25] <SeaJay> I saw the following on that page:
[18:26] <SeaJay>  This is the first release where the default desktop environment for the accessibility install profiles is Unity 2D, this does change the screen layout for everyone, including screen reader users, ....
[18:26] <SeaJay> I think there's more elsewhere on the page, so let me keep looking.
[18:28] <webczat> oh. but what do you do if someone installed the system without an accessibility profile? I heart the login screen is not accessible yet/orca doesn't start.
[18:29] <webczat> and if unity3d is the default for standard profiles...
[18:30] <maco> you might need help getting it setup then :-/
[18:30] <SeaJay> I found more on this, but I'm having trouble cutting and pasting it. Give me a second.
[18:30] <maco> AlanBell: did you see the email on the list a moment ago?
[18:31] <webczat> maco: yeah, I know. but does this orca not starting thing mean that it doesn't start when it's directed to start, or it doesn't have some options set that I can set?
[18:32] <webczat> I mean this at lightdm screen
[18:33] <webczat> I'm asking so many questions because I'm currently somewhat... afraid of installing 11.10.
[18:34] <maco> im not sure. i havent tried using it yet :-/
[18:35] <maco> TheMuso: you around?
[18:35] <maco> well and also i dont normally use a screen reader. i could try an install in a vm...
[18:35] <webczat> mhm
[18:36] <maco> AlanBell & TheMuso seem most likely to know the answer, webczat
[18:36]  * webczat should wait for them
[18:36] <webczat> but it's 20:36 here
[18:36] <webczat> so it depends on their timezone/worktime/etc
[18:37] <maco> AlanBell is a brit. TheMuso is an aussie
[18:37] <webczat> Yeah.
[18:38] <SeaJay> Sorry, it took so long. Here's what else it says on that article:
[18:39] <SeaJay> Orca can’t read what is going on with Unity3d. By  default if you install using the screen reader you will boot into the  2d desktop. At present the 3d desktop is not accessible, however there  is code to make this work and we expect this to be made available in a  PPA for 11.10 and be in by default in 12.04 LTS. Orca does not run during the lightdm window  manager right now, this will be fixed in an update, but as of release  the log
[18:39] <SeaJay> BTW, I've tried to install this once into VMware Player, but no sound at all yet, but I need to spend a bit more time with it.
[18:42] <maco> the ppa is here: <apinheiro> https://launchpad.net/~apinheiro/+archive/unity-extra-a11y
[18:46] <webczat> apinheiro told me about the ppa.
[18:59]  * AlanBell is in a pub
[19:01] <webczat> AlanBell: I need some info about lightdm accessibility.
[19:34] <SeaJay> Hmm, I'm trying to install 11.10 into a VMware Player virtual machine, but it looks like VMware Player is using Easy Install, so I'm wondering if I'm missing the opportunity to install with the accessibility profile.
[19:35] <SeaJay> I don't see how to install Ubuntu without using Easy Install.
[19:36] <SeaJay> Hmm, I guess I need to scrounge around the VMware Player documentation a bit.
[20:05] <webczat> SeaJay: you need to virtually insert the iso image.
[20:14] <SeaJay> webczat: In the first screen of the new VM wizzard, I select install from ISO and then point it at the Ubuntu 11.10 ISO file I've downloaded.
[20:15] <SeaJay> webczat: Are you saying I should select install later or install from CD and then somehow point the virtual CD to the ISO image?
[20:57] <webczat> SeaJay: yeah, install later
[22:32] <TheMuso> Thanks for the wonderful release notes guys.
[22:40] <SeaJay> webczat: Thanks for the tip! I've got Oneric installing now in my VM. I had to do the install later option, make sure the sound card was powered up at start up and then raise the volume of the virtual machine. Once I did that Orca came right up and I had no problems with Ubiquity, at least not so far!
[23:50] <Pendulum> TheMuso: thank you for being awesome about getting stuff in to the release!
[23:51] <TheMuso> Pendulum: No problem, I already have a list of things that need doing for Precise.
[23:51] <TheMuso> That are screen reader related anyways.
[23:51] <Pendulum> TheMuso: cool. It turns out I will be at UDS after all, btw
[23:52] <Pendulum> maybe we can sit down and chat about stuff?
[23:52] <maco> TheMuso: one time, agateau gave a "how to use git" lesson at uds. could you maybe give a "how to be more accessible" session at uds this time? skaet and cjwatson have both told me they want to help but dont know how any of it works. i told them i attempt to flounder through ubiquity's a11y but am also pretty clueless 
[23:52] <TheMuso> Sweeet!
[23:52] <Pendulum> I think AlanBell had talked to someone about having a "this is how Orca works" thing at UDS
[23:53] <Pendulum> but I don't know if anything actually started to get worked on
[23:53] <TheMuso> maco: I guess, I don't quite know the finer details myself, but I guess I could give an overview, because documentatino is rather scarce.
[23:53] <Pendulum> (it was one of the Canonical folks who goes to some of the London LoCo things)
[23:54] <maco> TheMuso: scarce and crappy :P
[23:54] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[23:54] <TheMuso> If most people use glade, glade has a11y options. I'll need to see what options it offers.
[23:55] <maco> is replacing chunks of a UI with webkit still bad?
[23:55] <maco> that might be a thing to mention if so
[23:55] <maco> also how to make things tabbable, since you cant tab to the release notes on ubiquity's first page
[23:56] <maco> well glade does offer that, but maybe hinting that it might be important for links to be able to have focus so people can do that...
[23:56] <Pendulum> does anyone know if there is a general bug about the Compiz issues with the launcher?
[23:57] <Pendulum> I know we've had people talk about it with regards to the magnifier
[23:57] <Pendulum> but talking to joanie last week, she said they'd established that it was all compiz plug-ins, not specific to a11y plug-ins
[23:57] <TheMuso> Ah I don't know how to do that.
[23:57] <TheMuso> the tab stuff
[23:57] <Pendulum> and I'm planning on taking that one up with the Unity team this cycle ;-)
[23:58] <TheMuso> As for Webkit, well webkit is getting more accessible all the time, to the point where if the webkit widget has caret browsing enabled, you should be able to cursor through the text like any text document. This was enabled for the ubiquity slide show, but doesn't work for some reason. Its on my list for P.
[23:59] <maco> TheMuso: i think just being able to have focus on the label is all thats needed. its just some people decide that ALL labels should lack focus because nobody ever tabs to labels only to buttons
[23:59] <TheMuso> maco: Interesting thought. A lot of GNOME dialogs that I've seen have focusable labels, so that makes sense.