TheMusomaco: There is also making sure labels are correctly associated with text entry boxes etc .00:01
TheMusoI believe glade can help with that if thats the gool in use.00:01
macoyes it does00:01
macoit has a "labelled by:" property for radio button and probably text boxes00:01
TheMusoOk thats good.00:01
macoalso probably checkboxes00:02
TheMusoAnd hopefully also has a "label for" box for labels.00:02
macoim not sure if you need to inform both widgets...00:02
TheMusoIn atk, I believe you can have either or, and the code I've seen checks for both.00:02
macoah ok00:02
macoi was pretty sure you didnt need to do both though00:03
TheMusoI am pretty sure too.00:03
macoanyway, ive just been informed that there are fresh brownies across the street00:03
macoi have told the brownie-baker's wife to get herself into this channel so her python skills can be put to work00:03
TheMusoPitty I am not feeling hungry, only has breakfast a couple of hours ago.00:03
SeaJayBrownies? what street?00:04
SeaJayWell, the two single guys across the street don't know anything about brownies!00:14
annaleeoh yay I spelt it right!00:35
macoTheMuso: please meet annalee, my friend who knows some python and wants to help00:36
annaleeI also have brownies.00:36
macoshe says the word "accessibility" is not accessible to dyslexics00:37
macoannalee: squishiest keyboard ever00:37
TheMusoannalee: How familiar are you with python?00:37
macoshe started in may, but its her ferrealz job00:38
annaleeI'm a developer for a django webapp.00:38
TheMusoOk cool.00:39
annaleethe sum of my gui experience is identifying a bug a gui problem and running screaming, but I'm happy to learn.00:39
TheMusoheh ok.00:39
TheMusoLearning is good, but there is a fair amount to learn when it comes to GUI and accessibility, and I am not sure where to point you to start that process...00:40
TheMusoSince documentation is lacking.00:40
macoguess i could start showing her glade00:41
TheMusoYep I guess thats a start. The other area is probably how python works with GTK these days, via GObject introspection.00:41
macolike me, she's a kde user though, so probably both of us should bug fregl about how to make qt do stuff00:41
macoi havent tried pygi yet :-/00:41
TheMuso...which likely requires an understanding of GObject as well.00:41
TheMusoBut yes, glade is a start.00:42
macoyou have no idea how much i miss gobject when told to do normal C00:44
TheMusoGObject is a minefield to learn, but once known, its great to work with.00:45
macojust told annalee about "press any key when you see the accessibility icon to turn on the screenreader"00:53
TheMusoThats no longer needed.00:55
macoyeah i was saying "it used to be"00:55
TheMusoNot for screen reader or high contrast profiles anyway.00:55
macois there a beep now? i know theres a ctrl+s thing00:55
TheMusoYes, Control + S at the ubiquity screen.00:55
macohow do you know if youre at the ubiquity screen?00:56
TheMusoYou should hear the drums sound.00:56
TheMusobbs out for a bit.00:58
=== API is now known as Guest46782
lea_hello, please could you help me setup zoom working again?08:04
lea_After update to 11.10 I can no longer have compiz Ezoom working08:05
lea_I am visually impaired and it is very very hard to read without it08:05
Pendulumunfortunately, the way Unity 3D is written, compiz plugins don't work on things like the launcher, but they should work on applications. (I'm really going to be bugging the Unity developers about this one this cycle)08:07
lea_Pendulum, I tryed Ubuntu Classic desktop but it has reset everything. 08:08
lea_I launched ccsm tryed redefining mouse control but it does not work08:08
AlanBellhi lea_ 08:09
lea_Hey Alan, nice to read you08:09
AlanBellin ccsm I turned on enhanced zoom desktop08:09
AlanBelland super+mousebutton4 to zoom in and button5 to zoom out08:10
lea_It is checked on here08:10
lea_as well à the super+mouse4-508:10
lea_I even tryed other shortcuts but it does not want to zoom 08:11
lea_To take the figure I am now so close the screen as 2 inches08:13
lea_found out compiz was not launched08:15
lea_I manually launched compiz --replace08:15
lea_but now the mouse pointer is gone08:16
AlanBellmy ezoom page looks like that08:16
=== Guest46782 is now known as apinheiro
leagrisI had to repair the following for compiz ezoom working08:41
leagrisreconfigure gdm as the default was reset to lightdm not working properly. Reverted to gdm08:42
leagrisHad to add compiz --replace to session start (was removed and not launched)08:42
leagrisHad to reconfigure eZoom shortcuts as it was reset to disabled and none08:43
leagrisHad to reconfigure mouse polling to 10ms as it was reset to 40ms and causing clunky zoom movments08:44
leagrisPlease, tell me how/why the ubuntu accessibility team appear to have no voice in ubuntu releases to fix these real stong flaws?08:45
leagrisPlease, tell me how these huge accessibility issues continue from versions to versions?08:45
leagrisPlease, is the accessibility team really listening and understanding the issues raised by disabled people?08:46
Pendulumleagris, unfortunately we're trying (the accessibility team), but there are issues with Canonical in terms of being able to have the resources and use them to get accessibility things fixed08:47
Pendulumpart of it is the 6 month release cycle08:47
Pendulumand part of it is other issues08:48
Pendulumunfortunately most of the people in this channel aren't developers and don't have access (or ability) to really work on these things. We're working hard to get people who can involved and working, but it's an uphill battle08:48
leagrisPendulum I really touch this close and concrete08:49
leagrisduring the years I took care of filling descriptive bug reports and providing hints08:50
Pendulumleagris: I'm talking to someone at Canonical about accessibility issues next week, may I reference your problems and your comments about how you feel about the problems you're coming across?08:50
leagrisYou'r welcome doing so Pendulum08:50
leagrisI regularly meet a french Braille linux user group by mailinglist. They report some progress in accessibility to the install progress though08:52
AlanBellleagris: I was talking to the canonical senior management team last night about accessibility and making it a priority08:52
leagrisVery active and helping group there CBLX08:52
AlanBellthere have just been so many huge changes this cycle and things were so broken through most of it08:53
leagrisBy the way, the know little about low sight issues (mostly Braille device users)08:53
leagrisMy needs as is, compiz eZoom does it all well to help plenty, depending it is configured and proprely setup to be fully mouse driven and having smooth mouve08:54
leagrisIt needs <super> mouse4/5 for zoom change08:55
leagrisIt needs 10ms mouse pollings as the default 40ms is too clunky and render things hard to follow on screen08:56
AlanBellthe huge problems have been getting in the way of fixing the smaller issues08:56
AlanBellI think the 40ms was set up because 10ms was making it unusable on low powered netbooks08:56
AlanBellI want there to be a general review of the compiz settings, so much of it just isn't set up right08:57
AlanBelluseful things just turned off08:57
leagrisAlanBell, I'm still motivated on helping sustaining you with eZoom enhancments :)08:57
AlanBellyes, I have a dev box running now, compiz has been too crashy to work on!08:58
AlanBellI really want to get text tracking zoom done for the LTS08:58
leagrisTryed Unity08:58
leagrisThe Unity icon ribon does not zoom or move with the whole screen08:59
AlanBellyes, there is a bug about that08:59
AlanBellthey intend to get that working, the problem is getting zoom in to include the launcher, but not zooming out with the workplace switcher09:00
leagrisAt least a fix was fond for the <super> modifier09:00
AlanBelloh, I turned off super as the unity shortcut09:02
AlanBellbecause I was using unity in a VM I didn't want super being grabbed by the host09:02
AlanBellthat might be why I didn't have much trouble setting the ezoom shortcuts09:02
leagrisPendulum, would you agree sharing my email or send me a talkback about the upcoming meeting? lea dot gris at noiraude dot net09:03
Pendulumleagris: I'll try. I'm not sure how much it'll be a meeting and how much it'll be my listing the current issues so that things are definitely communicated to Canonical. I asked if I could reference you because I need to get them to understand that not only are they losing users over the issue, but people are feeling like they're being led on by promises that aren't be fulfilled09:05
FudgeAlanBell  new tracking added to ezoom i hear09:08
leagrisPendulum, my guesses are the Accessibility team shall have a stronger voice in the release work-flow. The key question is, how?09:08
AlanBellFudge: really? where?09:10
leagrisThere are Ubuntu variants all around. One possible solution would be an accessibility release son the Ubuntu trunk would not interfere. Healthy users hopefully for the most significant part shall not encounter problems with usability things.09:11
AlanBellleagris: in the next cycle they are going to have more quality checks on stuff *before* it goes in and breaks everything09:11
Fudgenot sure ive got the mail now but i can hunt it up, Bill Cox mailed vinux-dev about it in the git repo for ezoom by memory09:11
AlanBelland there will generally have less "breaking everything" this cycle09:12
AlanBellFudge: ok, interesting, I can't see mcuh in the git repo09:12
Fudgeget back to you mate09:13
leagrisThinks like customized settings could be included as an option on accessibility. And current user settings shall net be reset at each release as it is now. Evry time I do a release upgrade, my settings are reset to inappropriate defaults.09:14
leagrisWell, geko applications like Firefox still get menu bars with black text over dark grey background. Even healthy sighted people may have trouble reading this ;D09:17
leagris(Firefox, Thunderbird)09:18
FudgeAlanBell  got an emai li can forward this to you m809:21
Fudgeemail even09:21
TheMusoOo good point. I'll add to my notes about testing that settings from Lucid are properly transfered as much as possible to Precise on upgrade.09:28
AlanBellFudge: great, alanbell@ubuntu.com09:32
webczatAlanBell: ping09:38
AlanBellhi webczat 09:39
Fudgehi webczat , sent AlanBell 09:39
webczatAlanBell: What's the status of lightdm accessibility yet?09:39
AlanBellwebczat: poor right now, TheMuso was looking into why orca doesn't start09:40
TheMusoAlanBell: Right, and a bug has been filed.09:42
webczatIs there any chance that when it will be able to start, then the livecd will be updated too?09:42
AlanBellin the point release 11.10.109:42
AlanBellif one gets made09:42
TheMusoThey never do point releases for non-LTSs.09:43
TheMusoAs for fixing the greeter, Orca *could* be hard-coded, however thats not a clean solution.09:43
webczatactually this one bug could really hurt, because you can have problems if you install ubuntu with a login screen displayed09:43
TheMusoThe proper solution is to start any app that has a .desktop file in /etc/xdg/autostart, once the org.gnome.desktop.a11y.applications screen-reader-enabled gsettings key is enabled.09:44
TheMusowebczat: I know, but I don't know the greeter code well enough yet to patch this myself. Maybe I should make time for that next week. Hrm.09:44
* TheMuso digs for a bug number.09:44
webczatoh yeah, but if you'll path it, then after the installation, it probably still won't go until update09:45
AlanBellwebczat: after installing it will boot up and will have selected the primary user09:45
AlanBellso type the password and you get to the desktop09:45
AlanBellthen do an update and when the bug is fixed, the greeter will be accessible09:45
webczathmm, the userlist is displayed only when multiple users are in place?09:45
TheMusobug 85055409:45
ubot2Launchpad bug 850554 in unity-greeter "Enabling screen reader and on-screen keyboard options from the a11y indicator do not start the application in question." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/85055409:45
AlanBellwebczat: user list is displayed, but primary user is selected, it is up and down to select different users09:46
webczatahh, so enter, password, enter?09:46
AlanBelljust "password, enter"09:48
webczatalso, what do you do if you have 3d drivers, you have installed ubuntu without an accessibility profile, and then you want to work with accessibility and a screenreader? I think 3d is the default.09:49
AlanBellthen you install the ppa with the fixes for Unity 3d09:49
AlanBellapplications will be accessible, just the unity dash and launcher will be silent09:50
apinheiro<AlanBell> I really want to get text tracking zoom done for the LTS09:50
AlanBellapinheiro has the ppa09:50
apinheiroabout that, some people are working on adding focus tracking on eZoom plugin09:50
AlanBellapinheiro: yes, I just found out about that09:51
apinheiroAFAIK, it is on alpha status right now09:51
AlanBellI have the code from the git tree, just installing the dependencies to build and test09:55
webczatAlanBell: I actually meant how to use unity2d then? I may not have admin on the computer at the time10:01
apinheirowebczat, afaik, unity2d is also installed by default10:02
apinheiroand at login10:02
apinheiroyou can choose which one you want to use10:02
apinheiroalthough of course, this leads to that lightdm issue10:02
TheMusoUnity-2d is pretty much the same accessibility wise, as Unity 3D with apinheiro's PPA.10:03
TheMusoAlthough parts of the dash behave slightly differently with keyboard navigation, somethign that needs to be unified for P.10:04
TheMusoI.e tab and shift tab move between apps/music etc in 3D, but you need to use the arrow keys and press enter to change between apps/music in unity 2D.10:04
AlanBellwebczat: tab, enter, down, down, enter, tab, password, enter10:05
AlanBellwill get you in to unity 2d if default is 3d10:06
webczatWhen this bug will be fixed, are you able to start orca yourself quickly?10:06
webczatI mean starting the accessibility dialog using a keyboard without relying on your actual focus position10:06
AlanBellthere is a menu of things in the top panel, I don't know if there will be a shortcut, like ctrl+s to start it in the installer10:07
TheMusoI think enabling the screen reader with Control + S in the greeter makes sense.10:09
TheMusoAs for accessing indicators, I'd like to get F10 to access that menu, just like in Unity.10:09
webczatit's very bad that I need sighted assistance to run a screenreader. on unity, I can at least alt+f2 and type orca10:10
TheMusoIt would be good to eventually allow accessibility profiles to be turned on/off in the desktop, but working out keyboard shortcut commands that don't conflict with app shortcuts is difficult.10:12
Fudgedesign an ubuntu keyboard10:14
Fudgewould be neet10:50
Fudgehave a kill button for htop, a restart orca key, loL10:50
Fudgehow does one turn volume up or unmute in unity 10:51
Fudgeim gettin ready to install but usually i get muted sound first out or when a new kernel gets installed10:51
TheMusoWhat about multimedia keys.11:01
TheMusoOr go into the sound menu, and go to the preferences and do it in there.11:01
FudgeTheMuso  it didnt actually boot for me so ill try again tomorrow on a decent computer11:25
Fudgegrub did then another screen but no further11:25
Fudgethis kb doesnt have multimedia keys and not  being familiar with unity i wouldnt know how to get to sound menu to unmute11:25
Fudgedoes alt f2 run gnome-volume.control still work11:26
TheMusoUse F10 to get to the menu bar, then arrow over to the sound menu.11:27
Fudgehow many times11:28
Fudgeguessing to the right also11:28
TheMusoDepends on what gets focus first, so I can't answer that questino I'm affraid.11:46
TheMusoFudge: You could also do it from the command line like so: pacmd set-sink-volume 0 100%11:47
TheMusoOr 90/80% to be safe.11:47
Fudgeah thanks heaps11:56
=== JanC_ is now known as JanC
paul_h1Hi, I just did a fresh install of Ubuntu 11.10 with the blindness profile. it went fine but now I've rebooted Orca isn't reading the launcher. something is happening because when I press alt+f1 I can no longer tab round the application I'm in and then I can again after pressing escape.  can this be fixed? do I need to switch to a different version of unity? thanks.15:58
Fudgewel i failed on this box, its a p4. gave the cd over ten minutes, it booted on another quad core but i couldnt get sound22:49
TheMusoFudge: If you are trying this at the ubiquity screen, i.e to get speech, press COntrol Alt F1, then run the pacmd command I gave you.23:19
FudgeTheMuso  i did try that but at a console23:21
Fudgefor some reason it didnt want to boot on this hardware though, is there a vesa option still, thought maybe 2nd option in boot menu23:21
TheMusoI don't know about the vesa options etc.23:23
TheMusoI don't have a CD handy to boot and check sorry.23:24
Fudgethats ok23:25

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