[00:01] <TheMuso> maco: There is also making sure labels are correctly associated with text entry boxes etc .
[00:01] <TheMuso> I believe glade can help with that if thats the gool in use.
[00:01] <maco> yes it does
[00:01] <maco> it has a "labelled by:" property for radio button and probably text boxes
[00:01] <TheMuso> Ok thats good.
[00:02] <maco> also probably checkboxes
[00:02] <TheMuso> And hopefully also has a "label for" box for labels.
[00:02] <maco> im not sure if you need to inform both widgets...
[00:02] <TheMuso> In atk, I believe you can have either or, and the code I've seen checks for both.
[00:02] <maco> ah ok
[00:03] <maco> i was pretty sure you didnt need to do both though
[00:03] <TheMuso> I am pretty sure too.
[00:03] <maco> anyway, ive just been informed that there are fresh brownies across the street
[00:03] <maco> i have told the brownie-baker's wife to get herself into this channel so her python skills can be put to work
[00:03] <TheMuso> Pitty I am not feeling hungry, only has breakfast a couple of hours ago.
[00:03] <TheMuso> s/has/had/
[00:04] <SeaJay> Brownies? what street?
[00:14] <SeaJay> Well, the two single guys across the street don't know anything about brownies!
[00:16] <TheMuso> lol
[00:35] <annalee> oh yay I spelt it right!
[00:36] <maco> TheMuso: please meet annalee, my friend who knows some python and wants to help
[00:36] <TheMuso> Awesome!
[00:36] <annalee> hi!
[00:36] <annalee> I also have brownies.
[00:37] <maco> she says the word "accessibility" is not accessible to dyslexics
[00:37] <maco> annalee: squishiest keyboard ever
[00:37] <TheMuso> lol
[00:37] <TheMuso> annalee: How familiar are you with python?
[00:38] <maco> she started in may, but its her ferrealz job
[00:38] <annalee> I'm a developer for a django webapp.
[00:39] <TheMuso> Ok cool.
[00:39] <annalee> the sum of my gui experience is identifying a bug a gui problem and running screaming, but I'm happy to learn.
[00:39] <TheMuso> heh ok.
[00:40] <TheMuso> Learning is good, but there is a fair amount to learn when it comes to GUI and accessibility, and I am not sure where to point you to start that process...
[00:40] <TheMuso> Since documentation is lacking.
[00:41] <maco> guess i could start showing her glade
[00:41] <TheMuso> Yep I guess thats a start. The other area is probably how python works with GTK these days, via GObject introspection.
[00:41] <maco> like me, she's a kde user though, so probably both of us should bug fregl about how to make qt do stuff
[00:41] <maco> i havent tried pygi yet :-/
[00:41] <TheMuso> ...which likely requires an understanding of GObject as well.
[00:42] <TheMuso> But yes, glade is a start.
[00:44] <maco> you have no idea how much i miss gobject when told to do normal C
[00:45] <TheMuso> GObject is a minefield to learn, but once known, its great to work with.
[00:53] <maco> just told annalee about "press any key when you see the accessibility icon to turn on the screenreader"
[00:55] <TheMuso> Thats no longer needed.
[00:55] <maco> yeah i was saying "it used to be"
[00:55] <TheMuso> Not for screen reader or high contrast profiles anyway.
[00:55] <maco> is there a beep now? i know theres a ctrl+s thing
[00:55] <TheMuso> Yes, Control + S at the ubiquity screen.
[00:56] <maco> how do you know if youre at the ubiquity screen?
[00:56] <TheMuso> You should hear the drums sound.
[00:57] <maco> ok
[00:58] <TheMuso> bbs out for a bit.
[08:04] <lea_> hello, please could you help me setup zoom working again?
[08:05] <lea_> After update to 11.10 I can no longer have compiz Ezoom working
[08:05] <lea_> I am visually impaired and it is very very hard to read without it
[08:07] <Pendulum> unfortunately, the way Unity 3D is written, compiz plugins don't work on things like the launcher, but they should work on applications. (I'm really going to be bugging the Unity developers about this one this cycle)
[08:08] <lea_> Pendulum, I tryed Ubuntu Classic desktop but it has reset everything. 
[08:08] <lea_> I launched ccsm tryed redefining mouse control but it does not work
[08:09] <AlanBell> hi lea_ 
[08:09] <lea_> Hey Alan, nice to read you
[08:09] <AlanBell> in ccsm I turned on enhanced zoom desktop
[08:10] <AlanBell> and super+mousebutton4 to zoom in and button5 to zoom out
[08:10] <lea_> It is checked on here
[08:10] <lea_> as well à the super+mouse4-5
[08:10] <lea_> as
[08:11] <lea_> I even tryed other shortcuts but it does not want to zoom 
[08:13] <lea_> To take the figure I am now so close the screen as 2 inches
[08:15] <lea_> erf
[08:15] <lea_> found out compiz was not launched
[08:15] <lea_> I manually launched compiz --replace
[08:16] <lea_> but now the mouse pointer is gone
[08:16] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/ezoom.png
[08:16] <AlanBell> my ezoom page looks like that
[08:41] <leagris> back
[08:41] <leagris> I had to repair the following for compiz ezoom working
[08:42] <leagris> reconfigure gdm as the default was reset to lightdm not working properly. Reverted to gdm
[08:42] <leagris> Had to add compiz --replace to session start (was removed and not launched)
[08:43] <leagris> Had to reconfigure eZoom shortcuts as it was reset to disabled and none
[08:44] <leagris> Had to reconfigure mouse polling to 10ms as it was reset to 40ms and causing clunky zoom movments
[08:45] <leagris> Please, tell me how/why the ubuntu accessibility team appear to have no voice in ubuntu releases to fix these real stong flaws?
[08:45] <leagris> Please, tell me how these huge accessibility issues continue from versions to versions?
[08:46] <leagris> Please, is the accessibility team really listening and understanding the issues raised by disabled people?
[08:47] <Pendulum> leagris, unfortunately we're trying (the accessibility team), but there are issues with Canonical in terms of being able to have the resources and use them to get accessibility things fixed
[08:47] <Pendulum> part of it is the 6 month release cycle
[08:48] <Pendulum> and part of it is other issues
[08:48] <Pendulum> unfortunately most of the people in this channel aren't developers and don't have access (or ability) to really work on these things. We're working hard to get people who can involved and working, but it's an uphill battle
[08:49] <leagris> Pendulum I really touch this close and concrete
[08:50] <leagris> during the years I took care of filling descriptive bug reports and providing hints
[08:50] <Pendulum> leagris: I'm talking to someone at Canonical about accessibility issues next week, may I reference your problems and your comments about how you feel about the problems you're coming across?
[08:50] <leagris> You'r welcome doing so Pendulum
[08:51] <Pendulum> thanks
[08:52] <leagris> I regularly meet a french Braille linux user group by mailinglist. They report some progress in accessibility to the install progress though
[08:52] <AlanBell> leagris: I was talking to the canonical senior management team last night about accessibility and making it a priority
[08:52] <leagris> Very active and helping group there CBLX
[08:53] <AlanBell> there have just been so many huge changes this cycle and things were so broken through most of it
[08:53] <leagris> By the way, the know little about low sight issues (mostly Braille device users)
[08:54] <leagris> My needs as is, compiz eZoom does it all well to help plenty, depending it is configured and proprely setup to be fully mouse driven and having smooth mouve
[08:55] <leagris> It needs <super> mouse4/5 for zoom change
[08:56] <leagris> It needs 10ms mouse pollings as the default 40ms is too clunky and render things hard to follow on screen
[08:56] <AlanBell> the huge problems have been getting in the way of fixing the smaller issues
[08:56] <AlanBell> I think the 40ms was set up because 10ms was making it unusable on low powered netbooks
[08:57] <AlanBell> I want there to be a general review of the compiz settings, so much of it just isn't set up right
[08:57] <AlanBell> useful things just turned off
[08:57] <leagris> AlanBell, I'm still motivated on helping sustaining you with eZoom enhancments :)
[08:58] <AlanBell> yes, I have a dev box running now, compiz has been too crashy to work on!
[08:58] <AlanBell> I really want to get text tracking zoom done for the LTS
[08:58] <leagris> Tryed Unity
[08:59] <leagris> The Unity icon ribon does not zoom or move with the whole screen
[08:59] <AlanBell> yes, there is a bug about that
[09:00] <AlanBell> they intend to get that working, the problem is getting zoom in to include the launcher, but not zooming out with the workplace switcher
[09:00] <leagris> At least a fix was fond for the <super> modifier
[09:02] <AlanBell> oh, I turned off super as the unity shortcut
[09:02] <AlanBell> because I was using unity in a VM I didn't want super being grabbed by the host
[09:02] <AlanBell> that might be why I didn't have much trouble setting the ezoom shortcuts
[09:03] <leagris> Pendulum, would you agree sharing my email or send me a talkback about the upcoming meeting? lea dot gris at noiraude dot net
[09:05] <Pendulum> leagris: I'll try. I'm not sure how much it'll be a meeting and how much it'll be my listing the current issues so that things are definitely communicated to Canonical. I asked if I could reference you because I need to get them to understand that not only are they losing users over the issue, but people are feeling like they're being led on by promises that aren't be fulfilled
[09:08] <Fudge> AlanBell  new tracking added to ezoom i hear
[09:08] <leagris> Pendulum, my guesses are the Accessibility team shall have a stronger voice in the release work-flow. The key question is, how?
[09:10] <AlanBell> Fudge: really? where?
[09:11] <leagris> There are Ubuntu variants all around. One possible solution would be an accessibility release son the Ubuntu trunk would not interfere. Healthy users hopefully for the most significant part shall not encounter problems with usability things.
[09:11] <AlanBell> leagris: in the next cycle they are going to have more quality checks on stuff *before* it goes in and breaks everything
[09:11] <Fudge> not sure ive got the mail now but i can hunt it up, Bill Cox mailed vinux-dev about it in the git repo for ezoom by memory
[09:12] <AlanBell> and there will generally have less "breaking everything" this cycle
[09:12] <AlanBell> Fudge: ok, interesting, I can't see mcuh in the git repo
[09:13] <Fudge> get back to you mate
[09:14] <leagris> Thinks like customized settings could be included as an option on accessibility. And current user settings shall net be reset at each release as it is now. Evry time I do a release upgrade, my settings are reset to inappropriate defaults.
[09:17] <leagris> Well, geko applications like Firefox still get menu bars with black text over dark grey background. Even healthy sighted people may have trouble reading this ;D
[09:18] <leagris> (Firefox, Thunderbird)
[09:21] <Fudge> AlanBell  got an emai li can forward this to you m8
[09:21] <Fudge> email even
[09:28] <TheMuso> Oo good point. I'll add to my notes about testing that settings from Lucid are properly transfered as much as possible to Precise on upgrade.
[09:32] <AlanBell> Fudge: great, alanbell@ubuntu.com
[09:38] <webczat> hi
[09:38] <webczat> AlanBell: ping
[09:39] <AlanBell> hi webczat 
[09:39] <Fudge> hi webczat , sent AlanBell 
[09:39] <webczat> AlanBell: What's the status of lightdm accessibility yet?
[09:40] <AlanBell> webczat: poor right now, TheMuso was looking into why orca doesn't start
[09:42] <TheMuso> AlanBell: Right, and a bug has been filed.
[09:42] <webczat> Is there any chance that when it will be able to start, then the livecd will be updated too?
[09:42] <AlanBell> in the point release 11.10.1
[09:42] <AlanBell> if one gets made
[09:43] <webczat> yeah.
[09:43] <TheMuso> They never do point releases for non-LTSs.
[09:43] <TheMuso> As for fixing the greeter, Orca *could* be hard-coded, however thats not a clean solution.
[09:43] <webczat> actually this one bug could really hurt, because you can have problems if you install ubuntu with a login screen displayed
[09:44] <TheMuso> The proper solution is to start any app that has a .desktop file in /etc/xdg/autostart, once the org.gnome.desktop.a11y.applications screen-reader-enabled gsettings key is enabled.
[09:44] <TheMuso> webczat: I know, but I don't know the greeter code well enough yet to patch this myself. Maybe I should make time for that next week. Hrm.
[09:44]  * TheMuso digs for a bug number.
[09:45] <webczat> oh yeah, but if you'll path it, then after the installation, it probably still won't go until update
[09:45] <AlanBell> webczat: after installing it will boot up and will have selected the primary user
[09:45] <AlanBell> so type the password and you get to the desktop
[09:45] <AlanBell> then do an update and when the bug is fixed, the greeter will be accessible
[09:45] <webczat> hmm, the userlist is displayed only when multiple users are in place?
[09:45] <TheMuso> bug 850554
[09:45] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 850554 in unity-greeter "Enabling screen reader and on-screen keyboard options from the a11y indicator do not start the application in question." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/850554
[09:46] <AlanBell> webczat: user list is displayed, but primary user is selected, it is up and down to select different users
[09:46] <webczat> ahh, so enter, password, enter?
[09:48] <AlanBell> just "password, enter"
[09:48] <webczat> yeah
[09:49] <webczat> also, what do you do if you have 3d drivers, you have installed ubuntu without an accessibility profile, and then you want to work with accessibility and a screenreader? I think 3d is the default.
[09:49] <AlanBell> then you install the ppa with the fixes for Unity 3d
[09:50] <AlanBell> applications will be accessible, just the unity dash and launcher will be silent
 I really want to get text tracking zoom done for the LTS
[09:50] <AlanBell> apinheiro has the ppa
[09:50] <apinheiro> about that, some people are working on adding focus tracking on eZoom plugin
[09:51] <AlanBell> apinheiro: yes, I just found out about that
[09:51] <apinheiro> AFAIK, it is on alpha status right now
[09:55] <AlanBell> I have the code from the git tree, just installing the dependencies to build and test
[10:01] <webczat> AlanBell: I actually meant how to use unity2d then? I may not have admin on the computer at the time
[10:02] <apinheiro> webczat, afaik, unity2d is also installed by default
[10:02] <apinheiro> and at login
[10:02] <apinheiro> you can choose which one you want to use
[10:02] <apinheiro> although of course, this leads to that lightdm issue
[10:03] <TheMuso> Unity-2d is pretty much the same accessibility wise, as Unity 3D with apinheiro's PPA.
[10:04] <TheMuso> Although parts of the dash behave slightly differently with keyboard navigation, somethign that needs to be unified for P.
[10:04] <TheMuso> I.e tab and shift tab move between apps/music etc in 3D, but you need to use the arrow keys and press enter to change between apps/music in unity 2D.
[10:05] <AlanBell> webczat: tab, enter, down, down, enter, tab, password, enter
[10:06] <webczat> yeah
[10:06] <AlanBell> will get you in to unity 2d if default is 3d
[10:06] <webczat> When this bug will be fixed, are you able to start orca yourself quickly?
[10:06] <webczat> I mean starting the accessibility dialog using a keyboard without relying on your actual focus position
[10:07] <AlanBell> there is a menu of things in the top panel, I don't know if there will be a shortcut, like ctrl+s to start it in the installer
[10:09] <TheMuso> I think enabling the screen reader with Control + S in the greeter makes sense.
[10:09] <TheMuso> As for accessing indicators, I'd like to get F10 to access that menu, just like in Unity.
[10:10] <webczat> it's very bad that I need sighted assistance to run a screenreader. on unity, I can at least alt+f2 and type orca
[10:12] <TheMuso> It would be good to eventually allow accessibility profiles to be turned on/off in the desktop, but working out keyboard shortcut commands that don't conflict with app shortcuts is difficult.
[10:14] <Fudge> design an ubuntu keyboard
[10:14] <Fudge> loL
[10:50] <Fudge> would be neet
[10:50] <Fudge> have a kill button for htop, a restart orca key, loL
[10:51] <Fudge> how does one turn volume up or unmute in unity 
[10:51] <Fudge> im gettin ready to install but usually i get muted sound first out or when a new kernel gets installed
[11:01] <TheMuso> What about multimedia keys.
[11:01] <TheMuso> Or go into the sound menu, and go to the preferences and do it in there.
[11:25] <Fudge> TheMuso  it didnt actually boot for me so ill try again tomorrow on a decent computer
[11:25] <Fudge> grub did then another screen but no further
[11:25] <Fudge> this kb doesnt have multimedia keys and not  being familiar with unity i wouldnt know how to get to sound menu to unmute
[11:26] <Fudge> does alt f2 run gnome-volume.control still work
[11:26] <TheMuso> No.
[11:27] <TheMuso> Use F10 to get to the menu bar, then arrow over to the sound menu.
[11:28] <Fudge> how many times
[11:28] <Fudge> guessing to the right also
[11:46] <TheMuso> Depends on what gets focus first, so I can't answer that questino I'm affraid.
[11:46] <TheMuso> questino
[11:46] <TheMuso> question
[11:47] <TheMuso> Fudge: You could also do it from the command line like so: pacmd set-sink-volume 0 100%
[11:47] <TheMuso> Or 90/80% to be safe.
[11:56] <Fudge> ah thanks heaps
[15:58] <paul_h1> Hi, I just did a fresh install of Ubuntu 11.10 with the blindness profile. it went fine but now I've rebooted Orca isn't reading the launcher. something is happening because when I press alt+f1 I can no longer tab round the application I'm in and then I can again after pressing escape.  can this be fixed? do I need to switch to a different version of unity? thanks.
[22:49] <Fudge> wel i failed on this box, its a p4. gave the cd over ten minutes, it booted on another quad core but i couldnt get sound
[23:19] <TheMuso> Fudge: If you are trying this at the ubiquity screen, i.e to get speech, press COntrol Alt F1, then run the pacmd command I gave you.
[23:21] <Fudge> TheMuso  i did try that but at a console
[23:21] <Fudge> for some reason it didnt want to boot on this hardware though, is there a vesa option still, thought maybe 2nd option in boot menu
[23:23] <TheMuso> I don't know about the vesa options etc.
[23:24] <TheMuso> I don't have a CD handy to boot and check sorry.
[23:25] <Fudge> thats ok