[00:43] <Azelphur> lol, I just ran htop on my server "Uptime: 107 days(!)"
[00:43] <Azelphur> that little ! makes me laugh :P
[00:58] <C-S-B>  compress=lzo as an option for my btrfs home partition is not working, what am I doing wrong?
[01:08] <C-S-B> no worries sorted.
[04:33] <RichTUK> im a Lint user mainly, but used ubuntu for a long time, how are the ppl who updated finding 11.10? im thinking of triple booting
[04:34] <RichTUK> Mint*
[05:42] <sammmm> heyyy
[05:42] <sammmm> Ubuntu 11.10 is out yayayayyayayay :D
[05:42] <sammmm> Downloading now :D
[05:51] <bkerensa> Ubuntu Ocelot Release Google+ Hangout - [Live] http://j.mp/qzpYDB
[05:54] <sammmm> Anyone out tonight in Swansea?
[06:38] <imexil> Morning, so I'm still struggeling with synaptic not running under 11.10. Found out it's related to a segfault in /lib/i386-linux-gnu/libc-2.13.so only I can't find out which package is providing that file.
[06:40] <imexil> Anyone a tip on how to search for the package with the help of apt-get (there is a reason why I want to use synaptic you see  since I'm NOT blessed with apt-get foo ;) )
[06:42] <AlanBell> dpkg -S /lib/i386-linux-gnu/libc-2.13.so
[06:42] <imexil> thanks AlanBell
[06:42] <imexil> strange that http://packages.ubuntu.com can't find it though
[06:44] <imexil> I mean the file not libc6
[06:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> Morning all. Any sore heads this morning?
[06:48]  * AlanBell is fineish
[06:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> :-)
[07:32] <dwatkins> hi folks
[07:34] <Pendulum> hi dwatkins
[07:34] <DJones> Morning all
[07:36] <danfish> morning - how'd the release partay go?
[07:46]  * BigRedS is sure he spent more time in a tube tunnel than in the pub last night...
[07:53] <Pendulum> AlanBell: I think http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1206051 is my problem
[07:55] <diplo> Morning all
[07:56] <AlanBell> Pendulum: ok, so you need to run fsck on the drive of the virtual machine
[07:56] <Pendulum> yeah
[07:57] <AlanBell> did it say the drive was read only?
[07:57] <AlanBell> sudo touch /forcefsck  <- try that
[07:58] <AlanBell> it will either work, and do the fsck after a reboot, or tell you the drive is read only
[08:03] <Pendulum> it did the fsck after reboot, but has not fixed issue
[08:04] <Pendulum> I'm going to try recovery mode on a live cd next
[08:04] <MartijnVdS> Coworker had the NVidia driver enabled (and Unity) in 11.04, then upgraded to 11.10 and during the upgrade Unity became unresponsive
[08:04] <MartijnVdS> That's unfixable, because the NVidia driver breaks text-consoles as well :|
[08:04] <Pendulum> ugh
[08:05] <Pendulum> at least this isn't an upgrade bug
[08:05] <Pendulum> it's probably a "my laptop hates me" bug ;)
[08:06] <Pendulum> (have ubuntu in VM on MacOS, laptop neglected to tell me it was running out of power and just shut down, ever since I turned it back on, it  just gives me a black screen part way through booting Ubuntu. I'm guessing it's because the Ubuntu instance shut down "incorrectly")
[08:07] <AlanBell> Pendulum: might be something in /var/log/xorg.0.log
[08:12] <DJones> Has anybody looked at or bought one of these http://www.reghardware.com/2011/10/14/whsmith_signs_kobo_to_battle_amazon_kindle/ Just wondering how it compares with teh kindle, seems to have one major benefit in letting you use epub files
[08:13] <gord> DJones, is that really a major benefit? at least, never found it a hindrance
[08:13] <DJones> gord: Most of my ebooks are in epub format
[08:13] <gord> DJones, calibre :) it manages your ebooks and auto converts to whatever your device needs
[08:13] <gord> the touch screen on that thing looks interesting, but you'd really have to have a play with it to know if you like it i think
[08:15] <DJones> gord: I know, I use it to convert anything I get to epub to read on my phone up to now, but converting a 1000 or so books to a kindle format could be a bit time consuming if I bought one of them
[08:16] <gord> DJones, well, thats the fun part, not really. it knows what format the kindle require, so you just tell it to put the books on your kindle and does everything for you
[08:16] <Pendulum> AlanBell: any idea what I might be looking for?
[08:17] <DJones> gord: Right, didn't realise that
[08:17] <gord> yeah, calibre is a life saver :)
[08:17] <AlanBell> Pendulum: something that looks errorish
[08:17] <AlanBell> possibly near the end
[08:21] <Pendulum> no errors near the end
[08:22] <czajkowski> aloha
[08:25] <Pendulum> the only error I'm finding that doesn't immediately have a line of "disregard error" after it is  "/dev/fb0: no such file or directory", but I'm not sure what the connection is since searching seems to mostly give me that error once people are actually running programs
[08:27] <andyc> I thought gnome classic was going to be removed from ubuntu 11.10?
[08:29] <AlanBell> andyc: it isn't on the disk
[08:35] <andyc> I take it back it's jus tin the list of window managers for some reason
[08:35] <andyc> Maybe because I installed gnome-shell
[08:36] <AlanBell> yup, that would probably do it
[08:37] <Pendulum> AlanBell: was that aimed at me?
[08:37] <AlanBell> Pendulum: no, at andyc
[08:38] <Pendulum> okay, didn't think so, but was checking
[08:38] <AlanBell> Pendulum: /dev/fb0 is the framebuffer, not sure why it would be missing, or what to do  :(
[08:38] <AlanBell> popey: might know
[08:38] <MartijnVdS> maybe it shut down in the middle of a kernel upgrade and the initrd is broken?
[08:39] <Pendulum> MartijnVdS: wasn't upgrading anything. Only even had irssi and firefox open
[08:39] <JamesTait> Happy morning after, everyone! It's Friday! :D
[08:43] <MartijnVdS> Pendulum: weird!
[08:48] <kazade> morning all
[08:48] <czajkowski> aloha
[08:58] <smittix> GB mirrors still going slow?
[08:58] <jamespage> smittix: thats what I see at the moment
[09:00] <smittix> jamespage: :/
[09:07] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[09:07] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[09:08] <MartijnVdS> \o brobostigon
[09:08] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: o/
[09:11] <fr-z> morning. has anyone made the upgrade from ubuntustudio to 11.10?
[09:18] <bigcalm> Yes, mostly works well so far
[09:18] <bigcalm> (on my laptop)
[09:18] <bigcalm> Though the Archive Manager wants to open everything
[09:18] <bigcalm> *grumble*
[09:18] <bigcalm> Having to set up the default apps for different file types is irritating
[09:19] <bigcalm> Also, dropbox needs to be updated from the CLI as root, otherwise the GUI will just sit there and do nothing.
[09:21] <fr-z> bigcalm but wasnt the gnome 2 removed? if so, like it was expected, what do they use now?
[09:25]  * oimon eating a biscuit made by my 20 month old toddler. not bad. he made me a nice beef casserol the other day too
[09:29] <bigcalm> fr-z: yes, gnome 2 is no more. The default is now Unity
[09:29] <bigcalm> Takes some getting used to. I'm giving this new version a month
[09:32] <fr-z> but thats ubuntu not studio
[09:32] <fr-z> "Ubuntu Studio does not currently use Unity as it is transitioning to XFCE. "
[09:32] <bigcalm> The thing that put me off the most about Unity is that everything is full screen by default. Un-maximising is the way forward
[09:32] <bigcalm> I'm sorry, I miss-read your initial line
[09:33] <ali1234> everything is not fullscreen by default on desktop
[09:36] <awilkins> Blurrgh, who set the default fixed-width font in Oneiric to "large and ugly"
[09:37] <gord> bigcalm, ali1234 everything is fullscreen by default, *if* unity thinks you are on a netbook
[09:37] <gord> which is generally a machine that has a vertical resolution < 700 or so
[09:37] <awilkins> And who stole the font config panel‽
[09:37] <ali1234> gnome
[09:37] <ali1234> install gnome-tweak-tool
[09:37] <MartijnVdS> but that installs all of Gnome 3
[09:38] <gord> looks like they are bringing it back for the next gnome version though, hopefully
[09:38]  * awilkins bangs ctrl-c
[09:38] <ali1234> MartijnVdS: open a packaging bug then
[09:38] <gord> its not a packaging bug, tweak-tool relies on shell, it brings in shell which brings in a bunch more stuff
[09:38] <ali1234> why does it rely on shell?
[09:38] <AlanBell> good use of the interrobang awilkins :)
[09:38] <ali1234> it doesn't rely on it to run
[09:39] <gord> for the shell extensions part iirc
[09:39] <awilkins> AlanBell, Why thank you, I saw it on QI and decided it needed a resurgence
[09:39] <ali1234> the shell extensions part is empty...
[09:39] <gord> yeah you'd have to install some
[09:39] <gord> i don't know how
[09:40] <ali1234> i don't even use gnome shell
[09:41] <awilkins> What are GNOME smoking... we get an "online accounts" tool that ... doesn't integrate chat, mail, or anything else when you configure it. And they take away the font config panel.
[09:41] <MartijnVdS> awilkins: For the greater good!
[09:42] <awilkins> The greater good of people who enjoy being driven cross-eyed by their terminal, maybe...
[09:42] <awilkins> What is that font anyway, Ubuntu?
[09:43] <awilkins> The u and n say yes
[09:44] <gord> well technically you should be able to change the font in the terminal app too
[09:44] <BigRedS> awilkins: remember the heyday of gnome 2 when you couldn't configure it?
[09:44] <BigRedS> that's what Gnome3 is aiming for
[09:46] <awilkins> gord, You can change the font in the terminal app, which is nice. But it rather defeats the point of having system-wide font config. And for some reason, XChat thinks the system terminal font is something other than the one being used in the terminal by default ..
[09:47] <AlanBell> awilkins: it is the ubuntu mono font
[09:48] <fr-z> i hope ubuntu studio with xfce goes well because unity and gnome 3 are a complete usability fail
[09:48] <awilkins> AlanBell, Whoever decided that it was a good idea for the terminal font needs shooting.
[09:48]  * AlanBell likes it
[09:48] <awilkins> Should be forced to type all his press releases in a terminal using vim.
[09:48] <AlanBell> but I reduce the size to 10
[09:48] <bigcalm> Ubuntu Mono is the only font that anybody needs
[09:48] <awilkins> And Ubuntu Mono
[09:48] <gord> i'v been using ubuntu mono in my terminal for a long long time, its nice
[09:48] <bigcalm> Same here
[09:48] <bigcalm> And in anything I code with
[09:49] <oimon> what's the font package name?
[09:50] <awilkins> I suspect this is why it's called "Preferences", dammit.
[09:50]  * awilkins changes the terminal to Liberation Mono 10 like it should be by default
[09:50] <smittix> anyone have any remote desktop solutions for Ubuntu?
[09:50] <awilkins> smittix, Clients or servers?
[09:50] <smittix> Using the standard one a user has to login before it allows you
[09:50] <smittix> Servers
[09:51] <oimon> on-site users or far away?
[09:51] <sdh> wow
[09:51] <sdh> i thought i would hate the new version of ubuntu
[09:51] <sdh> in fact i had already lined up mint
[09:51] <sdh> but i love it
[09:51] <smittix> oimon: both
[09:51] <sdh> it looks amazing
[09:51] <smittix> for a home server
[09:51] <oimon> i use freenx cos it's so fast and allows suspend sessions etc
[09:52]  * awilkins concurs with freenx
[09:52] <awilkins> Or neatx perhaps (not tried it)
[09:52] <smittix> Coolio, I will look them up
[09:52] <awilkins> But if Google has something to do with it, it has half a chance of being decent
[09:53] <awilkins> Or just learn to do things on the terminal and use SSH
[09:53] <oimon> how can i get ubuntu monospace on lucid?
[09:54] <bigcalm> Download the zip from http://font.ubuntu.com/
[09:54] <bigcalm> Extract the files. Load each one and click 'install font' in the bottom right of the new window
[09:54] <bigcalm> Or something like that :)
[09:56] <smittix> awilkins: I use SSH already, It's just sometimes I need to download from a website with a login and can't seem to get wget to grab the files.
[09:56] <awilkins> smittix, Ah, yes, I know that pain
[09:56] <oimon> bigcalm: thanks. easy when you know how
[09:57] <awilkins> smittix, You could try a CLI mode browser like elinks
[09:57] <smittix> awilkins: Yeah I have tried Links already and the page just doesnt display
[09:57] <DJones> smittix: Connecting from Ubuntu or Windows? For the rare occasions when I need to connect from windows, I just use TightVNC viewer which askes for login details
[09:57] <awilkins> smittix, But yes, I've resorted to installing a desktop and an NX server to download files on servers before now
[09:58] <awilkins> May a thousand fleas infest the underpants of people who implement file download servers that don't work without session cookies (I spit on you, CollabNet)
[09:58] <smittix> heh
[09:59] <bigcalm> smittix: filezilla for windows and linux.
[10:00] <davmor2> morning all how was the party's?
[10:00] <bigcalm> The party's what?
[10:00] <awilkins> The party's release?
[10:01] <smittix> trying to access a routers gui within ssh is a pain aswell
[10:01]  * bigcalm notes a lack of popey. I wonder if he's nursing a hangover
[10:01] <smittix> well web interface
[10:01] <davmor2> bigcalm: there were 2 release party's one in London and one in leeds
[10:01] <bigcalm> So, parties
[10:01]  * bigcalm feels evil today
[10:02] <shauno> if session cookies for downloads earn a thousand fleas, what does a java-based downloader earn you?
[10:02] <smittix> death by fire
[10:02] <davmor2> bigcalm: yeah whatever
[10:02] <bigcalm> :D
[10:03] <oimon> i get "install failed" when i try to install the font :(
[10:05] <bigcalm> Pass
[10:05] <DJones> oimon: http://askubuntu.com/questions/5097/how-do-i-use-the-new-ubuntu-font-family-in-older-releases
[10:05] <DJones> Maybe that has it
[10:05] <TheOpenSourcerer> bigcalm: I think you may be right: http://www.project-distribution.co.uk
[10:05] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ahh  - wrong url.
[10:06] <bigcalm> Eh?
[10:06] <bigcalm> Oh
[10:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> Try this one: https://twitter.com/#!/popey/status/124778355080957952
[10:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> ooops ;-)
[10:06] <bigcalm> Ah, I have been avoiding twitter during work hours. Has made me a little more productive ;)
[10:18] <czajkowski> TheOpenSourcerer: you were missed last night
[10:21] <BigRedS> czajkowski: well aim better, then
[10:21] <czajkowski> BigRedS: well I didnt miss you :p
[10:22] <popey> Afternoon!
[10:22]  * czajkowski hugs popey 
[10:23] <AlanBell> o/ popey
[10:23]  * popey has a hurty head
[10:24] <smittix> self inflicted no sympathy
[10:24] <bigcalm> GOOD MORNING POPEY!
[10:24]  * popey dials down the brightness on the world
[10:24] <popey> ugh, boss just asked if i wanted to go to the pub
[10:24] <Pendulum> popey: good time at the party last night, then?
[10:25] <popey> i have been here 8 minutes
[10:25] <awilkins> Hair of the dog?
[10:26] <bigcalm> Sounds like a smashing idea to me :)
[10:26] <DJones> popey: You've already been in the pub for 8 minutes?
[10:26] <popey> hah
[10:28] <davmor2> popey: happy party?
[10:29]  * davmor2 prods czajkowski 
[10:29] <popey> yes
[10:30] <davmor2> popey: how's the head?  You actually went drinking with Jono do you have a death wish?
[10:30] <popey> it was fun
[10:31] <gord> hrm, really need to get an arduino then hook it up to a laser that knows when its beam has been broken, that then uses servos to move the position of the laser quickly. would keep the cat entertained for hours
[10:31] <daubers> Morning
[10:31] <ali1234> = blinded cat
[10:34] <TheOpenSourcerer> czajkowski: I was at (hopefully) my son's next school's open evening.
[10:34] <czajkowski> nods
[10:34] <davmor2> AlanBell: hows your head not as bad as popey's I hope?
[10:34] <AlanBell> I am OK
[10:35] <czajkowski> AlanBell: you made the train then
[10:35] <czajkowski> AlanBell: I came home to new headphones and an android tablet :D
[10:35] <czajkowski> guess how happy I was after the day I had :D
[10:35] <AlanBell> yes, got the bus with christel
[10:36] <czajkowski> yay
[10:36] <christel> awww
[10:36] <czajkowski> I went home and played angry birds
[10:36]  * christel hugs czajkowski 
[10:36] <czajkowski> and angry frogs and snakes
[10:36] <czajkowski> jon had the tablet all set up for me :D
[10:36] <czajkowski> it's so fast and nice
[10:36] <czajkowski> LOVE IT
[10:36] <bigcalm> Those are some funky headphones
[10:36] <czajkowski> I <3 orange
[10:37] <czajkowski> http://twitpic.com/702dzw
[10:37] <bigcalm> Do you have a VAX vacuum cleaner?
[10:37] <AlanBell> wow
[10:37] <czajkowski> BigRedS: no we have a roomba
[10:37] <czajkowski> the tablet is a advent vega
[10:38] <BigRedS> czajkowski: that was for bigcalm :)
[10:39] <czajkowski> confused.com
[10:39]  * bigcalm tuts
[10:39] <bigcalm> ;)
[10:39] <BigRedS> haha
[10:40] <BigRedS> wait, czajkowski, that's windows?
[10:40] <czajkowski> BigRedS: at wor
[10:40] <czajkowski> k
[10:40] <BigRedS> tsk tsk
[10:40] <BigRedS> actually, no, I'll just sympathise
[10:42]  * popey hugs BigRedS 
[10:43] <popey> now he has put 2 and 2 together and knows who BigRedS is
[10:43] <jacobw> 4?
[10:43]  * bigcalm still doesn't
[10:45] <BigRedS> haha
[10:45] <BigRedS> I was sure I'd explained before
[10:46] <popey> ← memory retention fail
[10:46] <BigRedS> though, presumably, it was rather late and in a pub
[10:46] <DJones> I thought BigRedS was a pseudonym for Santa Claus :)
[10:46] <popey> BigRedS has nice hair
[10:46] <popey> i aspire to have hair like him
[10:46] <popey> he also has a good laugh
[10:46] <BigRedS> ah yeah. I've been told off for it in campsites before :/
[10:47]  * daubers just aspires to keep his hair :(
[10:47] <BigRedS> "stop laughing, you're waking people up"
[10:47] <daubers> A battle I'm seemingly loosing
[10:47]  * DJones hands daubers a bic
[10:48] <bigcalm> DJones: to colour in the bald bits?
[10:48] <jacobw> lol
[10:48] <czajkowski> there is no fear of BigRedS losing his hair
[10:48] <DJones> bigcalm: Not the pen
[10:49] <czajkowski> there is enough of his hair is to share with all of ye and still have a full head
[10:49] <BigRedS> I should sell it
[10:50] <DJones> Sounds like your describing RMS, lots of hair etc
[10:51] <DJones> Or Anita Dobson :)
[10:52] <popey> lol
[10:53] <popey> i like the idea of Anita dobson running the FSF
[10:53] <czajkowski> DJones: BigRedS is clean and doesnt pick at his hair and eat it
[10:53] <czajkowski> so nothing like RMS
[10:53] <popey> s/hair/feet/
[10:53] <DJones> popey: With her boyfriend singing in the background "I want to break free" :)
[10:57] <bigcalm> DJones: davmor2 is the one who breaks free
[10:58] <davmor2> bigcalm: Never they'd have to catch me first before I'd need to break free MUhahahahaahahahahah
[10:59]  * TheOpenSourcerer has been told off for snoring in campsites before ;-) ^^re: BigRedS ^^
[11:00] <BigRedS> haha
[11:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> I kept about a 500yd radius of my tent awake :-D
[11:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> Wifey was fine
[11:00] <BigRedS> haha!
[11:01] <popey> i am on windows atm, can someone on ubuntu help me pls?
[11:01] <bigcalm> o.O
[11:01] <brobostigon> my dad has been told of similerely, before.
[11:01] <bigcalm> Is anybody in here using Ubuntu? ;)
[11:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> popey: Turn it off and insert an ubutu cd
[11:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> then trun it back on
[11:02] <DJones> popey: What do you need?
[11:02] <bigcalm> Your clothes and your motorcycle
[11:02] <DJones> TMI
[11:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> Damn I need a wee. BBL
[11:02] <popey> open gconf editor and look for the key relating to vnc
[11:03] <popey> when you enable/disable vnc it flips a switch in gconf key somewhere
[11:03] <popey> i cant remember which key
[11:03] <brobostigon> TheOpenSourcerer: my dad now has a thing, to help him breathe properly, while asleep. and he no longer has such snoring problems.
[11:03] <BigRedS> popey: http://www.ubuntu.com/tour/
[11:03] <popey> BigRedS: funny man
[11:03] <DJones> I'm on windows but I can ssh/vnc into a Lucid machine
[11:04] <popey> need someone with a gui really
[11:05] <BigRedS> Ah, I've got that vm I made for gpg
[11:05] <BigRedS> hang on, I'll boot it
[11:05] <davmor2> popey: on oneiric? there no gconf-editor ;)
[11:06] <gord> dconf-editor - fun times
[11:06] <irene> hej
[11:06] <davmor2> popey: The program 'gconf-editor' is currently not installed.  You can install it by typing:
[11:06] <davmor2> sudo apt-get install gconf-editor
[11:07] <popey> why are you telling me this?
[11:07] <BigRedS> popey: I've got it. What am I looking for? all I can see with anything to do with vnc is a vinagre directory/folder/thing
[11:09] <popey> hmm
[11:09] <BigRedS> is there a way to search it? There really should be but it's not obvious
[11:09] <popey> yes
[11:09] <popey> menu item ☺
[11:10] <BigRedS> i appear to have no menus
[11:10] <BigRedS> hm
[11:10] <AlanBell> is it the always-enable-listening key perhaps?
[11:10] <AlanBell> in org.gnome.Vinagre (I am using Oneiric and dconf-editor)
[11:11] <BigRedS> oh. ctrl-f
[11:11] <DJones> Hmmh, server died, ah well, that'll keep me busy tonight
[11:11] <popey> open the dash, search for remote
[11:11] <popey> flip the 'allow remote access' tickbox
[11:11] <popey> does the thing in dconf-editor change?
[11:12] <bigcalm> popey: found it
[11:13] <bigcalm> It's /desktop/gnome/remote_access/vnc_password
[11:13] <popey> thats it
[11:13] <bigcalm> Key is 'enabled'
[11:13]  * popey points corenominal at the last 3 lines
[11:13] <BigRedS> /desktop/remote/gnome/access has a 'enabled' which changes
[11:13] <BigRedS> oh
[11:14]  * bigcalm makes the connection and smiles
[11:14] <bigcalm> Right, think I should get some lunch
[11:17] <corenominal> popey, got it, thanks :)
[11:18] <gord> hrm, the infernal decision. un-7z a large file on a network storage via the slow 100mbit ethernet cable but with the i7 machine. or ssh into the file server and un7zip slowly on the dual core atom but without the network overhead
[11:24] <ali1234> 7z isn't that CPU intensive
[11:31] <gord> i'm racing them
[11:32] <gord> mostly IO limited on both
[11:38] <BigRedS> haha, gord picks the slowest of three options :)
[11:39] <gord> my IO is faster than my network speed, didn't really impact it :)
[11:42] <gord> now reading the directory full of spectrum games, that is slow
[11:43] <BigRedS> this firefox release schedule combined with their amusing bugs is hilarious
[11:43] <BigRedS> Ive just closed four firefox instances, each running a different version so I can still use the right extensions and use the right websites...
[11:45] <diplo> It's annoying me as well BigRedS
[11:45] <diplo> Firebug
[11:46] <diplo> for example, with newer releases of FF
[11:46] <diplo> Need to stop breaking add ons with every upgrade
[11:52] <BigRedS> yeah, and SSL cert handling just seems to get worse and worse.
[11:52] <BigRedS> I'm not a web developer, I shouldn't need to run multiple versions of a browser...
[11:53] <shauno> ff's versioning for addons really doesn't seem to be holding up well against this major-version-per-week deal
[11:56] <BigRedS> No, I think they need to bring in some automated testing
[11:57] <BigRedS> no add-on dev is going to test against every major version, and so they're not going to want to claim compatibility with them all
[11:57] <BigRedS> It'd be cool if the add-on devs just all came to an agreement to designate LTSs that they'd support :)
[11:58] <ali1234> add-on devs should just set compatibility to * and then blame ff devs when it breaks
[11:58] <BigRedS> yeah, that's what I'd do
[11:58] <BigRedS> it's a moving target, nobody can be expected to program for it. The onus is on Mozilla to stop moving it, rather thanthe devs to follow
[11:58] <ali1234> exactly
[11:59] <gord> iirc mozilla are working on a stable API
[11:59] <BigRedS> and the point of the rapid major releases is to have little difference between them. 95% of add-ons for version 8 should work in version 9 with no modification
[11:59] <ali1234> even better, someone should fork firefox and make a simplified light version
[11:59] <gord> a simplified light version that three people use ;)
[11:59] <ali1234> and then have a 6 monthly release cycle for it
[11:59] <BigRedS> I'd use it, but then bog it down with silly add-ons...
[12:00] <gord> seriously, mozilla know about the problem, they are taking steps to fix it but its just not something you fix overnight
[12:00] <ali1234> why not? they broke it overnight
[12:00] <gord> this is not a new problem
[12:00] <gord> its just one that is exacerbated by the new release schedule
[12:01] <DJones> Hmmh, dead server, do I just put the hdd in a replacement machine to see if its hardware releated, or just build a new server & configure it
[12:02] <smittix> talking of servers i need to get these drives to automount
[12:05] <DJones> I think I'll just swap the drive into a replacement machine & see if it still crashes
[12:06] <DJones> That'll give me time to do a clean install of its replacement anyway
[12:06] <smittix> I should have just installed server edition instead of desktop
[12:08] <DJones> This one occasionally gets used for web browsing etc, so it needs a desktop now and again
[12:08] <DJones> Otherwise I'd put server on it
[12:09]  * bigcalm returns and flops
[12:11] <smittix> Oct 13 21:42:19 macbuntu sshd[3070]: Invalid user iain
[12:11] <smittix> had to think who that was then heh
[12:11] <bigcalm> o.O
[12:11] <bigcalm> o/
[12:12] <bigcalm> Have you changed your sshd port yet?
[12:12] <smittix> no i will do it when i get home. So i can forward the ports on the router
[12:12]  * bigcalm nods
[12:12] <smittix> Installed fail2ban though
[12:13] <bigcalm> You can have sshd listen on multiple ports. Let internal machines connect on 22, external connections on something else
[12:13] <mgdm> having it on 443 is occasionally handy :-)
[12:14] <bigcalm> If a little confusing at 1st
[12:14] <smittix> I want to setup my domain smittix.co.uk with it too
[12:14] <smittix> actually sack that idea
[12:14] <smittix> decided to keep the mac though. found a space for it.
[12:14] <Joeb454> mgdm: I have to have my machine at home on 443 so I can access it from work ;)
[12:15] <bigcalm> I do like that joker.com allow you to set up dyn subdomains. Means I can use cuth.eu (nice and short) at no extra cost
[12:19] <Darael> Having upgraded to Oneiric, my wifi card appears no longer to exist... even if I use an older kernel.  Any ideas what on earth might be going on?
[12:19] <gord> i used to use things like dyndns, but could never find anything that worked well with it, routers would occasionally forget everything or dyndns would start threatening to lose the subdomain because i hadn't logged in for a while. so now i just have a static IP and the home subdomain of my domain point at it -_-
[12:20] <smittix> 123 reg want me to pay 10 quid for a subdomain
[12:21] <bigcalm> joker.com \o/
[12:21] <mgdm> that's whyI run my own DNS
[12:21] <gord> gandi just let you go crazy, log in, write a new subdomain, gets propagated in an hour or two
[12:21] <mgdm> I can have as many subdomains as I like
[12:22] <Darael> smittix: If thou canst use DNS of thy choosing with the domain, move thy DNS to someone who'll let thee manage it thyself - do it thyself, or I understand that hurricane electric do a free DNS service.
[12:22] <smittix> mgdm: I have thought about doing that. But it'd be the first time i have done so on linux
[12:22] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Onwards and Upwards - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/10/14/onwards-and-upwards/
[12:23] <oimon> darael , which wifi card do you have?
[12:23] <Darael> oimon: From memory, a Realtek RTL8191SE.  It doesn't even show in lspci any more, though, so I can't check.
[12:24] <bigcalm> Live cd of 11.04?
[12:25] <Darael> I could dig that out of wherever I put it...
[12:26] <oimon> weird that it's not in lspci..have you enabled it via bios/function key/hardware switch?
[12:27] <osiris_> Bah wrong session heh
[12:29] <Darael> oimon: Tried the function-key, there's no bios setting or hardware switch.
[12:29] <mgdm> There's a lot of Bluetooth hardware that just drops off the uSB bus when you use the hardware switch to turn it off
[12:29] <mgdm> never seen it with wifi kit, though
[12:31] <smittix> :/
[12:33]  * smittix prods MooDoo 
[12:33]  * smittix hides
[12:52] <awilkins> Annoying things in Unity - alt-F2 is still there. But if you type faster than it resolves the command you typed, it picks the first thing showing in the history list. Grr.
[12:54] <davmor2> awilkins: it doesn't for me and I'm not the worlds fastest typer, it only selects when I hit enter
[12:55] <awilkins> davmor2, Hmm. I've had a couple of instances where I typed "eclipse" and it picked "bcompare" which was the previous thing I loaded
[12:55] <awilkins> I mean "executed" rather than just "selected"
[12:56] <davmor2> awilkins: if you check the history as it comes up mine shows everything that is selected and whittles it down as I type then I hit enter when the right one is first in the queue
[12:56] <davmor2> or click on it in the list
[12:58] <awilkins> Just tried again... entered "gvim" and quickly hit enter. It starts an eclipse instance, because that was what I ran previously. I'm sure I would have noticed this behaviour before, I've not suddenly become a fast typist.
[12:59] <Darael> Many thanks to oimon and mgdm - I had a faint memory of having this before, and while the first few reboots didn't fix it, a shutdown-and-boot /did/ bring it back.
[12:59] <oimon> weird. laptop or desktop?
[13:00] <oimon> sounds like a soft disable setting was being remembered that wouldn't be enabled until power off
[13:01] <Darael> oimon: laptop.  But the hardware key /normally/ doesn't remove it from lspci - it still shows up, but rfkill list shows it as hard blocked.
[13:13] <oimon> wow, liberation monospace font sucks for @ symbol
[13:17] <pepito> Greetings my fellow Ubuntu-ers!
[13:17] <gord> it sucks at the  symbol too
[13:18] <andyc> Out of curiosity has anything serious changed re: library linking in ubuntu 11.10
[13:19] <andyc> I'm trying to compile somethign using a makefile which worked fine yesterday and now it has all sorts of undefined reference errors
[13:19] <pepito> being newly converted to Ubuntu, I am loving it, in many many many dimensions
[13:19] <gord> andyc, if you upgraded, then the ABI will have broken for some libraries you use, you'll need to make clean first
[13:19] <gord> pepito, great to hear! :)
[13:20] <pepito> :)
[13:20] <andyc> gord: It was a fresh install
[13:20] <pepito> I just wish I knew what library sharing and ABI and makefiles were.  Then maybe I'd be useful here
[13:21] <andyc> pkg-config seems to be finding the correct libs/locations but it still fails linking
[13:24] <pepito> I have noticed a big difference in the fundamental principles that dictate the structural differences between windows and ubuntu
[13:25] <pepito> which are mostly awe inspiring and liberating, but sometimes confusing
[13:25] <pepito> thats a long way of saying, I have a question, can someone please help? :/
[13:28] <oimon>  pepito, go ahead :)
[13:29] <TheOpenSourcerer> Congrats czajkowski
[13:29] <pepito> I am wondering about what used to be called "shortcuts" in windows....
[13:29] <awilkins> pepito, Sure but no need to ask, to ask  ---->  http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html  :-)
[13:29] <awilkins> pepito, Are we talking about desktop shortcuts, or file system links?
[13:30] <awilkins> pepito, Something to click on, or something to truly lead somewhere else?
[13:30] <pepito> aha!  see, I just got smarter already!  thanks awilkins....
[13:30] <pepito> I am talking about my files are buried about six clicks deep, on my external drive, and in windows I just
[13:30] <pepito> clicked on a desktop shortcut, but now I have to click my way in every time I open a file
[13:31] <TheOpenSourcerer> In Linux/Posix systems shortcuts are termed links. Normally symbolic
[13:31] <ali1234> shortcuts are a lot closer to .desktop files
[13:32] <diplo> http://www.speedtest.net/result/1534517991.png  <-- My work connection today :(
[13:32] <ali1234> NT has it's own symbolic link system, which is buried deep in the command line
[13:32] <awilkins> pepito, From the file explorer (nautilus) you can find "make link" in the right click menu
[13:32] <czajkowski> TheOpenSourcerer: on what?
[13:32] <TheOpenSourcerer> pepito: I don't know how to do it from the GUI but from the terminal you can create a link quite easily
[13:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> czajkowski: Council
[13:33] <TheOpenSourcerer> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/results.pl?id=E_234037fcede80bac
[13:33] <awilkins> pepito, This makes what's called a "soft link" - like Windows it's a file that points to another place, but it's a bit more integrated ; apps don't have to understand them to open them
[13:33] <ali1234> pepito: you drag the file while holding down ALT then select "link here"
[13:33] <pepito> "the terminal" is that bit that you are never ever supposed to mess with, right between turning on the PC and the OS powering up, right?
[13:34] <ali1234> pepito: don't mess about with symbolic links and the terminal
[13:34] <TheOpenSourcerer> It's easy and fast :-)
[13:34] <TheOpenSourcerer> cd Desktop
[13:34] <TheOpenSourcerer> ls -s path/to.my/dir
[13:34] <TheOpenSourcerer> done
[13:34] <ali1234> wrong
[13:34] <awilkins> pepito, The terminal / shell is the thing that makes Linux much more powerful and "flow-ish" than Windows for many power users
[13:34] <ali1234> you have commited a typo
[13:34] <oimon> that's a point, does nautilus have "favourite folders" anymore? on lucid , i drag common folders onto theleft pane - doesn't seem possible in 11.10?
[13:34] <czajkowski> TheOpenSourcerer: oh wow
[13:34] <czajkowski> hah
[13:35] <pepito> seriously, I feel like an infant in the world of using my own PC all of a sudden
[13:35] <awilkins> oimon, It still works, your left pane set to places, drag folder to "Bookmarks" section
[13:35] <TheOpenSourcerer> ali1234: Works for me :-)
[13:35] <pepito> which is a good thing, I know it opens up a world of freedom, but where Microsoft did all my thinking for me I now have to actualy know stuff
[13:35] <ali1234> TheOpenSourcerer: no it doesn't. read what you typed again, except slower this time
[13:36] <czajkowski> kinda lost for words now
[13:36] <oimon> awilkins: can u explain?
[13:36] <TheOpenSourcerer> OK missed the trailing slash
[13:37] <DJones> czajkowski, The words you're looking for are "Oh bugger, what have I let myself in for"
[13:37] <awilkins> oimon : what's your sidebar set to, tree or places?
[13:37] <ali1234> TheOpenSourcerer: nope, try again
[13:37] <TheOpenSourcerer> OK I actually did the following:
[13:37] <oimon> awilkins: places
[13:37] <TheOpenSourcerer> ls -s ~/link/to/my.dir/
[13:37] <oimon> cannot drag a folder onto the leftbar in oneiric though
[13:37] <TheOpenSourcerer> ln -s
[13:37] <awilkins> oimon, I see : Devices, Bookmarks, Computer, Network. Dragging a folder to Bookmarks makes it a bookmark
[13:38] <TheOpenSourcerer> bah
[13:38] <pepito> awilkins: I am looking for what you called the file explorer.  please excuse my absolute ignorance, I really am brand new to this... is that the small grey magnifying glass in my launcher?
[13:38] <oimon> i see Computer/Netowrk
[13:38] <awilkins> pepito, I usually start it up with the "Orange house folder" icon ( /home is where all user "home" folders are kept"
[13:39] <awilkins> pepito, The application itself is called nautilus, it's the standard GNOME graphical file explorer - the counterpart to explorer.exe in Windows
[13:39] <ali1234> pepito: what version of ubuntu are you using?
[13:40] <pepito> natty narwhale
[13:40] <Darael> awilkins: Except that it's not quite as tied into the guts of the system as explorer.exe - notably, if it crashes, the rest of the desktop keeps working.
[13:40] <ali1234> Darael: not all of it
[13:40] <ali1234> desktop icons are a nautilus instance, just like on windows
[13:40] <awilkins> Darael, You  can restart explorer.exe if you start a task manager from alt-ctrl-del and Run it ... (but this isn't a Windows help channel :) )
[13:40] <Darael> ali1234: True.  But at least it doesn't kill the panels, as explorer.exe mucks up the taskbar.
[13:41] <Darael> awilkins: Oh, I'm aware of that.
[13:41] <awilkins> Anyway, back to nautilus
[13:41] <oimon> awilkins: you are on 11.10 unity?
[13:41] <oimon> nautilus 3.20?
[13:41] <awilkins> oimon : maybe your bookmarks are empty and if you add one with ctrl-D the section will appear
[13:42] <pepito> I believe that is correct, yes
[13:42] <awilkins> oimon, Yes, Oneiric  / 11.10 / 3.2.0
[13:42] <pepito> I just installed it a week ago, after I got fed up with Microsoft
[13:42] <pepito> it was the most recent version
[13:42] <oimon> i can also close/crash nautilus by right clicking on the sidebar and choosing open when on blank space
[13:43] <ali1234> lol, confirmed
[13:43] <awilkins> oimon, Mine doesn't seem to have that behaviour
[13:44] <pepito> okay I just discovered I can toggle between different types of displays in the LH window of the file explorer, including the "tree"
[13:44] <ali1234> um. how?
[13:44] <pepito> which makes it a little quicker to scroll down and find my files
[13:44] <oimon> awilkins: weird, cannot add a bookmark in unity3d
[13:45] <oimon> maybe a fresh install is required :-\
[13:45] <ali1234> oh, i got it
[13:45] <pepito> there is a drop down menu right above it that says places...
[13:45] <pepito> yeah that one
[13:45] <ali1234> well that's gone in oneiric
[13:45] <ali1234> you have to use the menu
[13:46] <awilkins> pepito, Yeah, you came to the party a week late and installed the previous release version... never mind, natty is pretty stable and still very good
[13:46] <awilkins> I'm still running Maverick on my work machine (for the moment)
[13:46] <pepito> awwwww bunk.  :)
[13:46] <pepito> oh well, I am still happier than a fly on a cowpie
[13:46] <awilkins> I'll work out the kinks at home then install Oneiric on it
[13:47] <davmor2> oimon: I can if that helps and this is a fresh install
[13:47] <awilkins> oimon, I do fresh installs... you could try removing your .gnome2 folder (or wherever Unity keeps its prefs)
[13:48] <pepito> hey this emblems feature for marking documents is pretty nifty
[13:48] <awilkins> oimon, I move my old home folder and then move back any files I want to keep. (home on a different partition to root)
[13:48] <oimon> awilkins: trying with a fresh user
[13:50] <oimon> hmm either 11.10 is extremely buggy or i have a ropey install
[13:50] <oimon> gonna try a fresh one!
[13:50] <oimon> pepito: http://ubuntu-manual.org/ has a user manual for the 10.10 version from last year, although many ubuntu "concepts" are the same
[13:50] <awilkins> oimon, I've noticed a couple of desktop crashes so far but things have startup up again (I am on the post-release nvidia driver which may, I suppose, be less stable)
[13:51] <pepito> thanks for the tip
[13:51] <awilkins> oimon, It's been stable for hours though, only crashed when attempting things like resolution changes to cover both widescreen monitors
[13:52] <awilkins> Which is now working fine
[14:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> Tonight I will be mainly eating raw Dorset #Naga chillies in a pub with a mate who thinks he's hard for a bet. ;-)
[14:00] <awilkins> Yipe
[14:01] <awilkins> Are you an experienced capsaicin extremist or are you just mad?
[14:02] <Guest6129> does anyone use Xchat? I would like to know where i can add my auto identify command
[14:02] <diplo> Yep i use it
[14:02] <awilkins> Guest6129, It's in the properties for the server you joined ; the default one is Ubuntu Server, not Freenode (despite appearances...)
[14:02] <oimon> i read about the madman on reddit who wanted to stick a very hot chilli up his botty
[14:03] <diplo> pfft awilkins beat me to it
[14:04] <oimon> this PC has Ubuntu 11.10 on it, would you like to Upgrade 11.10 to 11.10?
[14:04] <Guest6129> diplo where do i set the command?
[14:04] <diplo> So you have network list open and then edit/properties of the server you are on
[14:05] <diplo> option saying NickServ Password
[14:11] <brobostigon> what is the software pad.ubuntu-uk.org uses ?
[14:12] <ali1234> etherpad
[14:12] <brobostigon> thank you ali1234
[14:13] <oimon> been having problems with my etherpad lite install :(
[14:13] <oimon> not retrieving existing pads until etherpad+apache restart :-\
[14:23] <MooDoo> hello all
[14:24] <MooDoo> i hear congrats are in order czajkowski
[14:26] <zleap> hi
[14:27] <zleap> where do i get the md5 sum file thing from so i can check 11.10 was downloaded properly
[14:27] <popey> !md5sums
[14:27] <zleap> thanks
[14:27] <popey> which doesnt have 11.10
[14:27] <oimon> lolz
[14:28] <zleap> great
[14:28] <awilkins> THere's usually a MD5SUMS and SHA1SUMS file inthe same download folder
[14:28] <popey> http://releases.ubuntu.com/11.10/MD5SUMS
[14:28] <zleap> i was looking for a direct link to that page but was unable to find it
[14:32] <zleap> ok
[14:32] <zleap> i thought there was something strange when the file size was 610mb
[14:32] <zleap> that was from the main ubuntu download page thing
[14:32] <zleap> popey: thanks
[14:32] <oimon> guys, i just reinstalled 11.10 to check the bookmark thing FAIL again
[14:33] <awilkins> zleap ; you could "repair" it with bittorrent
[14:33] <oimon> can anyone reproduce? open Home folder from launcher, go to menu and choose Add Bookmark
[14:33] <oimon> nothing happens
[14:33] <zleap> awilkins: not sure how to do that,
[14:33] <awilkins> zleap, start the torrent, stop it again, swap out the file for the partial download
[14:33] <zleap> i will download again
[14:33] <GirlyGirl> zleap: zsynch will be easy to repair an iso
[14:34] <GirlyGirl> edit zsync
[14:34] <AlanBell> oimon: by design I think
[14:34] <AlanBell> it is a kind of standing bookmark
[14:34] <zleap> as i don't have any torrent software
[14:34] <awilkins> oimon, Pick another folder and try to bookmark that
[14:34] <zleap> zsync isn't installed this is my 2nd pc with the cd burner and 10.10 installed
[14:35] <awilkins> zleap, What are you running? Windows? uTorrent will be sufficient and it's about 300KB as I recall
[14:35] <zleap> ubuntu 10.10
[14:35] <oimon> awilkins: AHHH..you have to be inside the folder to bookmark it
[14:35] <AlanBell> zleap: should have transmission installed then
[14:35] <awilkins> zleap, Ubuntu has a torrent client in the default packages
[14:35] <zleap> yeah
[14:35] <oimon> and you cannot drag anything to bookmarks unti lyou have done that for the first time
[14:35] <oimon> arghgghh
[14:35] <zleap> i am downloading its only going to take a few mns anyway
[14:36] <awilkins> zleap, A nice fat pipe, the other solution to downloading files...
[14:36] <zleap> yeah
[14:39] <oimon> ok , this is a real bug. open nautilus and right mouse on the grey area of the sidebar..choose open in new tab: closes nautilus
[14:40] <oimon> anyone reproduce?
[14:40] <awilkins> I had a few tries, not so far
[14:40] <oimon> happens on unity2d and 3d for me
[14:41] <zleap> brasero now crashes when i try and copy a cd
[14:42] <popey> oimon: did you do a clean install?
[14:43] <AlanBell> oimon: opens a new window for me
[14:44] <gord> opens a new tab for me?
[14:44] <AlanBell> oh, that time it did open a new tab, then tried again and it all crashed
[14:45] <AlanBell> fairly even mix of new tab and crash now
[14:45] <oimon> within 10 mins of install i got a unity crash too :(
[14:46] <oimon> plus a software center bug
[14:46] <popey> yay
[14:46] <gord> fyi, testing is great. but generally you want to do it before release
[14:46] <oimon> been too busy to check the beta for last few weeks
[14:46] <oimon> been running for 3 months
[14:46] <oimon> irl got in way
[14:46] <popey> UNACCEPTABLE ANSWER!
[14:47] <ali1234> does software centre still crash if you try to submit reviews?
[14:47] <gord> i still find it slightly magical that i can eject my cd tray without touching it
[14:48] <ali1234> welcome to 1998
[14:49] <MooDoo> next you'll be saying your computer will be one day able to boot in under 10 seconds....
[14:49] <gord> my ubuntu does :)
[14:49] <gord> not the bios to ubuntu bit though
[14:49] <ali1234> i'm thinking of buying a blu ray burner
[14:49] <MooDoo> gord: i was being sarky ;)
[14:50] <ali1234> do they... "work" in linux?
[14:50] <MooDoo> not even upgraded to the new ubuntu yet, might do it tonight
[14:51] <gord> what do you want to burn?
[14:51] <MooDoo> burn the witch
[14:51] <gord> files i think should work, not video
[14:51] <MooDoo> sorry python mode again
[14:51] <Darael> MooDoo: Does she weigh the same as a duck?
[14:52] <popey> gord: havee you got an efika mx smartbook>
[14:52] <popey> ?
[14:52] <diplo> I'd like a Bluray player as well ali1234
[14:52] <gord> popey, never even heard of that
[14:52] <diplo> Let me know if you do get one how well it works
[14:52] <popey> arm laptop
[14:52] <diplo> I want to start ripping my Blurays
[14:52] <gord> ah no, i have an ac100
[14:53] <popey>  i.MX515
[14:53] <davmor2> ali1234: that was an old fault got faixed ages ago
[14:53] <Hippychick> how is blu ray support in ubuntu, ive been trying to pursade oly to get a bluray drive for the server so we can play films on there and share the drive with the eeep in the kitchen
[14:53] <ali1234> davmor2: well either it broke again recently or your idea of "ages ago" is rather short
[14:53] <davmor2> I just want my audio to work right with skype/voip/mumble
[14:53] <MooDoo> Darael: hehe ;)
[14:55] <davmor2> ali1234: If you were on oneiric it was a completely different bug some code was missing it got fix as soon as I tested it and it failed so 2-3 weeks ago
[14:57] <swat_> what does a bug mean if it is 'triaged'?
[14:57] <ali1234> swat_: it means that the bug has all the necessary information that you need to give, but nobody cares enough to fix it
[14:57]  * BigRedS plays spot the cynic :)
[14:58] <ali1234> it will likely stay that way until about 2 years has passed, then it will be closed because that version is no longer supported
[14:58] <swat_> ali1234: sounds a bit negative :)
[14:58] <ali1234> not at all
[14:58] <ali1234> you are lucky to even get that far
[14:58] <ali1234> 90% of my bugs are still at confirmed
[15:00] <BigRedS> yeah, one downside of it being so easy to file bugs on launchpad is that the vast majority of bugs never get fixed
[15:01] <oimon> how do you find openssh-server in software centre?
[15:01] <BigRedS> search for ssh?
[15:01] <oimon> try it
[15:01] <oimon> also try openssh-server
[15:02]  * diplo has never tried
[15:02] <diplo> always command line
[15:03] <oimon> why doesn't software centre show the right package?
[15:03] <AlanBell> search for ssh
[15:03] <AlanBell> first option is secure shell client and server (metapackage)
[15:04] <oimon> AlanBell: sort by name, relevance, ?
[15:04] <gord> generally if its a command line thing, you want to use apt
[15:04] <AlanBell> relevance
[15:04] <gord> software centre is mostly for things that have .desktop files
[15:04] <oimon> AlanBell: not there.
[15:05] <AlanBell> ah, maybe becuase I have it installed
[15:05] <AlanBell> see the link at the bottom "show 196 technical items"
[15:05] <oimon> ah LOL
[15:06] <oimon> AlanBell: hmm don't get that either
[15:11] <oimon> i have no explanation for what happened, except that software center hung for a few minutes and now shows ssh and the technical items bit
[15:11] <oimon> must be a repo problem
[15:13] <Darael> Since I upgraded to Oneiric, all buttons and dropdowns in the various config boxes are unreadable unless currently selected - white text on a very-light-grey background - in Ambiance, Radiance, /and/ Adwaita.  Any ideas how I can get those elements looking as they ought to?  I've tried gnome-tweak-tool, and changing the GTK+ theme to Greybird solves it but causes /other/ elements to look out-of-place.
[15:14] <livingdaylight> Hey, ubuntu 11.10 is available
[15:14] <livingdaylight> just got an ivnite to upgrade
[15:14] <MooDoo> livingdaylight: welcome to the party :) lol
[15:14] <livingdaylight> I think I'm a bit late to the party, no?
[15:15] <livingdaylight> I expected release towards end of the month as per usual
[15:15] <MooDoo> ah :)
[15:16] <livingdaylight> Is there a good screencaptur app like Jing for windows in Ubuntu/Linux?
[15:16] <gord> generally better to describe what you actually want rather than asking for a replacement for an app most of us prolly don't know about
[15:17] <TheOpenSourcerer> Jeez - The toolbar has gone from Nautilus... Have to use the menu (at the top of the screen!) to change the left column view...
[15:17] <livingdaylight> trying shutter, but it doesn't seem to provide a link I can copy /paste and share the screenshot with
[15:17] <oimon> reported bug 874321 with video
[15:17] <TheOpenSourcerer> AND half the dialogues are too bloody long to fit on my netbook screen. Just like Evolution all over again.
[15:18] <livingdaylight> god: i'd like an app that does what Jing does or other similar screencapture apps
[15:18] <livingdaylight> clip2net is close but rough on the edges
[15:20] <TheOpenSourcerer> And you can't change main panel display without using the menu either. Sorry this sucks quite a lot.
[15:22] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Laura Czajkowski] Elected to the Ubuntu Community Council - http://www.lczajkowski.com/2011/10/14/elected-to-the-ubuntu-community-council/
[15:29] <brobostigon> mr fox, has just resigned.
[15:30] <oimon> there was a fox hunt going on after all
[15:30] <brobostigon> quite.
[15:31] <oimon> as if the papers "knew" a back-story  but weren't reporting it
[15:31] <oimon> barely hidden between the lines of the articles
[15:32] <TheOpenSourcerer> Oooh - I thought he might have managed to hang on.
[15:32] <oimon> anyone else still getting text corruption? i think it's particular to my vga card http://i.imgur.com/pDEIP.png
[15:32] <ali1234> oimon: don't get that here
[15:32] <ali1234> i got stuff like that with natty but not any more
[15:33] <oimon> i can't find a list of bugs in launchpad i've said "me too" on
[15:33] <ali1234> oimon: there is one ut it is under development... 1 sec
[15:33] <oimon> affecting bugs?
[15:33] <ali1234> yeah
[15:33] <oimon> get an error page :(
[15:34] <ali1234> when/if that starts working i have a patched update-manager that tells you if any of the updates fix bugs that affect you :)
[15:34] <oimon> i think ive managed to completely break ubuntu today
[15:34] <oimon> ooh
[15:34] <oimon> ali1234: smart
[15:34] <ali1234> at the moment it only tells you if bugs you submitted were fixed
[15:34] <ali1234> because that's all you can get with the API
[15:37] <daubers> lo
[15:43] <TheOpenSourcerer> wow - some big things coming out here: http://www.itworld.com/it-managementstrategy/213373/libreoffice-sees-new-platforms-more-users
[15:43] <TheOpenSourcerer> The French government will be shifting 500,000 Windows users from  OpenOffice.org to LibreOffice. This will increase the installed base of  LibreOffice Windows users by five percent in a single migration.
[15:43] <TheOpenSourcerer> Région Île-de-France (the region where Paris resides and itself a  premium sponsor of the conference) will be distributing 800,000 USB keys  loaded with LibreOffice and a cloud plugin to that region's students.  Parisian students and their families will be getting heavy exposure to  the LibreOffice application.
[15:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> On-line LibreOffice
[15:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> Android and iOS ports
[15:46] <DJones> TheOpenSourcerer, Did you read the article about openoffice that just appeared on El Reg
[15:46] <DJones> sorry, no it was on slashdot
[15:47] <DJones> http://developers.slashdot.org/story/11/10/14/1531252/openoffice-is-dying-and-ibm-wont-help
[15:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> Interesting DJones... It was going to take a *long* time to get it all ported into the Apache ways and the world is moving quite quickly.
[15:49] <DJones> Stupid Windows tools, Windows 7 USB iso burner refuses to accept that an ubuntu 11.10 iso is a valid iso format
[15:49] <ali1234> why should i care if OO.o dies?
[15:49] <oimon> using ubuntu-bug to report a bug suggests i go to askubuntu?
[15:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> That's the great thing about Open Source. It hasn't. Libre Office is it's offspring and competitor.
[15:50] <ali1234> oimon: just click "i have been through tech support"
[15:50] <oimon> ali1234: bit misleading i feel
[15:50] <ali1234> oimon: it only happens on unity bugs
[15:50] <oimon> ali1234: ah thanks
[15:50] <ali1234> and perhaps a few other things
[15:51] <ali1234> is this the graphical corruption?
[15:51] <ali1234> cos if it is, you probably want to report it against the video driver anyway
[15:51] <ali1234> maybe it only happens on video card drivers actually, i forget
[15:51] <oimon> it only shows on unity windows. not sure if unity or intel
[15:51] <ali1234> it's intel
[15:52] <ali1234> video corruption is always down to the driver
[15:52] <oimon> cool ta
[15:52] <ali1234> intels drivers have gone pretty bad since i945 days
[15:53] <gord> i only get corruption on my intel box 1/7 days now
[15:53] <gord> much better than constantly all the time of 6 months ago
[15:53] <DJones> TheOpenSourcerer, I would have thougt their biggest problem now will be that they're not competing against a £xxx version of MS Office, they're also competing against LibreOffice and MS Office, If people have seen that a lot of the development has moved to LibreOffice, that's another battle for them to fight against
[15:54] <TheOpenSourcerer> It's also that the traditional Office Desktop Suite is becoming rather "old hat".
[15:54] <TheOpenSourcerer> I don't use OOo/Libre very much at all.
[15:55] <oimon> TheOpenSourcerer: what do you use? cloud stuffs?
[15:55] <TheOpenSourcerer> Email, Twitter and stuff like Google Docs.
[15:55] <TheOpenSourcerer> Occasionally I need to use it but not that often.
[15:56] <DJones> Is google docs free to use?
[15:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> Spreadsheets probably more than word processor docs.
[15:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> DJones: I haven't paid anything to use it
[15:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> We have a shed load of docs up there now.
[15:57] <TheOpenSourcerer> It's very handy when working on projects with customers
[15:57] <DJones> Right, I might give it a look anyway next time I have to do any documents, maybe once a month I need to do something word processed
[15:57] <mgdm> I'd like google docs more if it would let me mark things as headers, rahter than just changing the fonts
[15:58] <TheOpenSourcerer> mgdm: Yeah - it isn't perfect by any means.
[15:58] <mgdm> I want more semantics, rather than just making it bold
[15:58] <popey> minecraft on my intel box is painful.
[15:58] <mgdm> Personally I think Markdown's where it's at :)
[15:58] <popey> graphical corruption which gets worse
[15:59] <TheOpenSourcerer> We use it to prepare materials then might import into OOo for final "presentation work"
[16:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> Oh man oh man. 18TB hard drives... http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/10/researchers-increase-hard-drive-density-sixfold-with-salt.ars?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+arstechnica%2Findex+%28Ars+Technica+-+Featured+Content%29&utm_content=Google+UK
[16:00] <TheOpenSourcerer> 3.3Tb per Sq In. :-D
[16:28] <dwatkins> TheOpenSourcerer: wow
[16:30] <Monsterwizard> http://theoatmeal.com/blog/fix_computer
[16:42] <ali1234> "learn to code in java" :|
[16:43] <andyc> In unity when I alt+tab, should a window come up showing me which windows I'm scrolling through?
[16:43] <ali1234> sort of yeah
[16:43] <andyc> I dont get one and I have to guess when to stop :/
[16:43] <ali1234> you should see something, put it that way
[16:43] <andyc> That's a negative
[16:44] <andyc> Can I configure it in compizconfigsettingmanager?
[16:44] <andyc> I haven't used unity before - I think I prefer it to gnome shell but it's a bit buggier
[16:46] <andyc> Also I don't know whether this is unities fault but user switching since updating to 11.10 has locked up my machine pretty much every time I've tried it
[16:46] <andyc> Unity's***
[16:49] <Monsterwizard> ali1234 I'm learning to code in Java D:
[16:49] <ali1234> user switching has never worked properly
[16:50] <popey> andyc: in a terminal issue a "unity --reset"
[16:50] <ali1234> not in ubuntu, not in windows...
[16:50] <popey> see if it fixes your alt-tab
[16:50] <ali1234> maybe in OS X but i never tried it
[16:50] <popey> user switching in osx works well
[16:50] <popey> the mac in our kitchen is pretty much always logged on as me, wife, and both kids
[16:53] <andyc> popey, That did it - thanks!
[16:53] <popey> np
[16:56] <ujjain> Is there an English expression that means: putting the finger on the weak spot?
[17:00] <popey> ujjain: context?
[17:01] <ujjain> popey: This has nothing to do with ungratefulness, but the team should not be affraid to point the finger at the weak spot?
[17:02] <popey> like a whistleblower?
[17:02] <ujjain> right. It's a complaint.
[17:02] <popey> my brain is too muddy to think of an appropriate phrase, sorry
[17:02] <ujjain> no problem :)
[17:02] <popey> i suspect ali1234  or AlanBell can help :D
[17:03] <ujjain> hehe, it's alright :) I don't have to have perfect wording every time I guess.
[17:03] <popey> do you work as a translator?
[17:03] <popey> I am sure I must have asked that before
[17:03] <ujjain> You have not asked it before. I do not, I like languages and want to improve my English, but do not know how.
[17:04] <popey> Laney is also good.
[17:04] <Laney> so i've heard
[17:05] <ujjain> I have responded, I hope 'pointing the finger at the weak spot' makes sense hehe.
[17:05] <popey> it does to me
[17:05] <ujjain> Great. :)
[17:07] <Laney> silly freenode
[17:21] <daubers> Evening
[17:21] <daubers> Anyone fancy buying me a robot chassis?
[17:22] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jonathan Riddell] KDE is 15, Kubuntu is 11.10 - http://blogs.kde.org/node/4490
[17:23] <andyc> daubers, What sort of robot
[17:23] <andyc> ?
[17:24] <andyc> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1331949/George-foot-robot-comes-life-45-years-stored-inventors-garage.html
[17:24] <andyc> This one doesn't look to hard to put together
[17:25] <daubers> andyc: I want to play with a robot to map out a room :) So just a little thing on wheels. I'm currently being very tempted by this http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10336
[17:26] <andyc> Stick an arduino on it or something?
[17:26] <daubers> Yeah, pretty much
[17:26] <daubers> Was thinking of grabbing the new ARM based arduino when the boards are available
[17:28] <andyc> I didn't know they were making an ARM version
[17:29] <andyc> ARM have just got absolutely huge over the last few years
[17:30] <andyc> Everythign is ARM
[17:30] <daubers> Arduino DUE I think is the arm one
[17:30] <daubers> 32bit Cortex-M3
[17:31] <andyc> Quite a lot more powerful than my arduino :)
[17:31] <daubers> :)
[17:31] <daubers> I want to do the mapping with vectors, so I think the extra clock speed will make life easier
[17:32] <daubers> http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6164/6167088135_1270e2ff44_b.jpg <- The new arduino range
[17:32] <andyc> Yeah plus there isn't much RAM to play with on current arduinos
[17:32] <daubers> Yeah, I've seen a lot of guides on how to attach more SRAM to the mega
[17:32] <daubers> (or was it DRAM… one of the two)
[17:38] <ali1234> daubers: that's not a robot, this is a robot: http://www.lynxmotion.com/images/hi-res/ch3r01.jpg
[17:39] <daubers> ali1234: I'm trying to map a room, not invade the Earth
[17:39] <ali1234> um
[17:39] <MartijnVdS> daubers: that's what you tell other people, but we know better!
[17:39] <ali1234> just map it then? like, by hand?
[17:40] <daubers> ali1234: It's a stepping stone to something else. I want the little bot to wander around and make a vector map of the room it's in
[17:42] <MartijnVdS> daubers: surveying before taking over the world?
[17:42] <MartijnVdS> daubers: smart strategy :)
[17:42] <daubers> MartijnVdS: Nah, just surveying on where to hide the bodies :)
[17:43]  * MartijnVdS now has a smiley in his prompt
[17:43] <MartijnVdS> http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/lbu5f/whats_your_ps1/c2rfh13
[17:45] <ali1234> daubers: wheeled/tracked robots are a bit bad at dead reckoning
[17:45] <daubers> ali1234: because of the encoders in the wheels?
[17:46] <ali1234> no, because the wheels tend to slip a lot
[17:46] <ali1234> so you know how far the wheels have rotated perfectly
[17:46] <ali1234> but not how far the robot moved
[17:47]  * daubers was going with the wheel encoders + magnetometer + ultrasound sensor philosophy
[17:47] <ali1234> also that sparkfun thing looks ok but... tamiya have a much nicer one
[17:47] <ali1234> and i think sparkfun sells it
[17:47] <daubers> ali1234: I'd rather start with wheels, easier to control and I'm more interested in the mapping algorythm
[17:47] <daubers> stuff at the moment
[17:48] <ali1234> wheels is a bit of a dead end though
[17:48] <daubers> Could always do something optical under the body to detect movement and see if it's slipping or not
[17:48] <ali1234> pretty much nothing you can do with them translates into bipeds/hexapods
[17:48] <daubers> or, later down the line move to a hovercraft :)
[17:48] <ali1234> you can do what a optical mouse does
[17:48] <ali1234> that works quite well
[17:48] <ali1234> you need two sensors though, or a camera
[17:48] <daubers> isn't that some kind of laser interferometry?
[17:48] <ali1234> because mice don't understand rotation
[17:49] <ali1234> no, an optical mouse is just a camera
[17:49] <ali1234> someone hacked one to be a scanner
[17:49] <ali1234> then it just compares last two frames and calculates the movement
[17:49] <ali1234> a raspberry pi would be perfect for this
[17:50] <ali1234> just rip apart two mice and stick them under the robot
[17:50] <ali1234> plug them on usb of course
[17:50] <daubers> yeah, could do
[17:50] <ali1234> you can't do that with an arduino
[17:50] <ali1234> you have to write your own chip controller
[17:50] <MartijnVdS> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_rangefinder
[17:52] <ali1234> http://spritesmods.com/?art=mouseeye
[17:55] <daubers> All I really need to do is just attach an optical mouse to it and ask the mouse to detect movement. Shouldn't really need to do the rest of the processing myself
[17:57] <ali1234> yeah if you go with a usb capable ontroller
[17:58] <ali1234> you need two mice though
[18:05] <daubers> http://www.martijnthe.nl/2009/07/interfacing-an-optical-mouse-sensor-to-your-arduino/
[18:09] <awilkins> Anyone know where the desktop background setting is stored?
[18:09] <awilkins> I've tried committing .config and .gconf to version control and inspecting what changes when you change the background but I've not found it yet
[18:09] <daubers> it's in gconf-settings somewhere isn't it?
[18:11] <awilkins> daubers, Not if you believe the content of the files... lots of darkness, type, palette information
[18:11] <daubers> I thought you had to run some tool to get to that information?
[18:11] <awilkins> daubers, it's all stored in XML files, isn't it?
[18:12] <awilkins> Except I can't find the wallpaper settings
[18:12] <daubers> http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-244297.html
[18:12] <daubers> (I think)
[18:13] <awilkins> it says "file:///usr/share/backgrounds/warty-final-ubuntu.png"
[18:13] <daubers> :)
[18:13] <awilkins> Which is obviously a total lie
[18:13] <daubers> Is it?
[18:13] <awilkins> It's the Ocelot
[18:13] <daubers> I'd open that file and have a look…. the filename might be wrong
[18:13] <awilkins> And it doesn't change when you change the setting - I've got this folder in Bazaar and I can see everything that changed
[18:14] <daubers> http://library.gnome.org/admin/system-admin-guide/stable/gconf-9.html.en <- suggests the setting is /desktop/gnome/background/picture_filename
[18:15] <awilkins> That's the setting stored in that file
[18:15] <awilkins> It's kind of like the registry, only not an evil great bit BLOB database
[18:16] <daubers> Yeah, I suppose it assumes you're using some kind of gnome type wm?
[18:16] <awilkins> The mtime on that element says it's not been changed recently
[18:17] <awilkins> There are other settings in gconf that change when you change the theme / wallpaper but not this one
[18:17] <awilkins> Arrgh.
[18:17] <Darael> WRT the erlier comment about warty-final-ubuntu.png: my memory, if it helps, is that every release-wallpaper has been warty-final-ubuntu.png - this annoyed me, faintly.
[18:18] <awilkins> It's the purple plasma thing
[18:18] <daubers> awilkins: Change it with gconftool-2 and see if the bg changes?
[18:19] <ali1234> /usr/share/backgrounds/warty-final-ubuntu.png is correct
[18:19] <awilkins> ali1234, What, even if I have the Ocelot wallpaper selected?
[18:19] <ali1234> what is the ocelot wallpaper?
[18:19] <ali1234> is it a picture of an ocelot?
[18:19] <awilkins> Stalking_Ocelot_by_Sayantan_Chaudhuri.jpg
[18:19] <awilkins> It's kind of a Retro Tron Ocelot
[18:20] <ali1234> ah yeah
[18:20] <awilkins> An Ocelot from Darwinia
[18:20] <ali1234> dunno then
[18:20] <ali1234> why do you even want to know?
[18:20] <awilkins> Trying to work out how to change all the wallpaper using Puppet
[18:20] <ali1234> i would politely suggest that bzr sucks and probably just missed the change
[18:20] <ali1234> and you should use git instead
[18:20] <awilkins> bzr doesn't suck
[18:21] <ali1234> yeah it does
[18:21] <awilkins> I've used it since it's zero-point-something versions... it's different to git but I wouldn't characterise it as sucking
[18:21] <daubers> awilkins: Do you know the name of the program that changes the wallpaper?
[18:22] <ubuntuuk-planet> [James Tait] Whats in a name? - http://voices.canonical.com/james.tait/2011/10/14/whats-in-a-name/
[18:22] <awilkins> It's whatever the Appearance settings panel is
[18:22] <ali1234> gnome-control-panel
[18:22] <awilkins> Nope, not anymore
[18:22] <ali1234> hmm
[18:22] <ali1234> gnome-system-settings
[18:23] <awilkins> gnome-control-center summons the top level of it
[18:24]  * daubers would just go to the source
[18:27]  * daubers goes to the indian for dinner
[18:27] <ali1234> awilkins: it all goes over dbus: http://pastebin.com/HXppDeug
[18:28] <ali1234> seems to touch both dconf and gconf
[18:28] <ali1234> dconf being the "new" thing
[18:29] <awilkins> dconf... that must be some kind of cloud thing
[18:29] <awilkins> It's not in a folder called .dconf
[18:29] <ali1234> it's probably in a nasty binary blob somewhere
[18:30] <awilkins> Binary files dconf/user	2011-10-14 18:01:54 +0000 and dconf/user	2011-10-14 18:23:23 +0000 differ
[18:31]  * awilkins passes them into a fancy binary file-compare-o-matic
[18:32] <awilkins> Yup, that's where it is
[18:34] <ali1234> heh
[18:34]  * awilkins sees that this file is a serialized GVariant and remembers "Variant" from VB
[18:34]  * awilkins shudders
[18:34] <ali1234> remember when gconf came out and everyone said "lol, registry"
[18:34] <ali1234> and they said "no, you can still edit the files"
[18:34] <ali1234> but now that has been fixed with dconf
[18:35] <awilkins> I even wrote a library with the same API as the registry calls for VB6 that used a tree of INI files to store the settings
[18:35] <ali1234> lol
[18:35] <ali1234> how did that work out with ntfs filesystem limits?
[18:35] <awilkins> Wasn't that bad, not too many settings
[18:35] <awilkins> Not like I was trying to store the REAL registry in it
[18:36] <awilkins> It was much easier to deploy apps with, it had global defaults and user overrides and everything, and you just copied the files to the profiles folders
[18:36] <awilkins> Much like a lot of *nix apps that get ported to Windows
[18:38] <awilkins> The thing that makes the registry look like a filesystem in Powershell is probably testament that you really want to be able to manage these things with tools as powerful as those for files
[18:38] <awilkins> Ick, it's like an ouroboros of Ghandi - both MS and Unix are doomed to reinvent each other badly
[18:40] <awilkins> So, the UI themes are still in gconf but the background has been moved to dconf
[18:40] <awilkins> Lovely
[18:42] <ali1234> you should have patched windows
[18:42] <ali1234> and put the whole registry in it
[18:43] <awilkins> As you note, NTFS would melt down
[18:43] <ali1234> do it for the lulz
[18:43] <awilkins> The registry is fricking HUGE and contains this enormous database of stuff about how everything works in Windows
[18:44] <ali1234> i know
[18:44] <awilkins> Imagine putting HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT in INI files
[18:44] <ali1234> i know, lulzy right?
[18:44] <awilkins> You'd start an app and your disk would thrash for a week
[18:44] <awilkins> (ok, another week, this IS windows)
[18:44] <ali1234> as if windows doesn't do that anyway
[18:45] <awilkins> I'm getting a laptop refresh next week
[18:45] <awilkins> It should be one of those great big HP Elitebooks like an aircraft carrier
[18:45] <awilkins> A shame they are going to anchor it to bedrock with Windows, Antivirus, etc
[18:46] <awilkins> If it has a second drive bay I'm shoving an SSD with Oneiric in it
[18:50] <Monsterwizard> Ok I need to try and find these files but I thnk they don't exists anymore
[18:51] <Monsterwizard> in fact they can't
[18:51] <Monsterwizard> /etc/profile
[18:52] <awilkins> That one will be gone
[18:52] <awilkins> I presume you've installed?
[18:55] <Monsterwizard> yes
[18:56] <awilkins> Monsterwizard, If keeping files in /etc is important to you, maybe etckeeper would be helpful (never used it myself)
[18:56] <Monsterwizard> ahh ok I look at that
[18:56] <popey> Good evening everyone
[19:05] <ross_> ok so I'm learning the terminal
[19:05] <ross_> When I type ls -a at an empty folder
[19:05] <ross_> it lists . and ..
[19:05] <ross_> what are these?
[19:07] <AlanBell> they are your current directory (.) and parent directory (..)
[19:08] <AlanBell> so cd .. changes directory to the parent directory and goes up the hierachy
[19:08] <ross_> AlanBell this resource is telling if I type ' cd.' would make you stay where you are in the directory
[19:08] <ross_> but
[19:09] <AlanBell> "cd ." would indeed do that (you need the space)
[19:10] <ross_> oh :P thank you
[19:10] <ross_> so cd . takes me back to my home folder
[19:10] <popey> no
[19:10] <popey> . is the current folder, whichever one you happen to be in
[19:10] <popey> cd ~
[19:10] <popey> that will take you "home"
[19:11] <popey> the ~ is shorthand for home
[19:11] <ross_> I see
[19:11] <ross_> thank you popey
[19:11] <popey> no problem
[19:14] <ross_> command line gives me POWER!
[19:15] <andyc> `cd` takes you home as well, and you can cd ~username to go to username's home folder
[19:17] <ross_> The output of ls ~/.. is 'ross'
[19:17] <ross_> does that show the users
[19:17] <ross_> ?
[19:17] <andyc> Thats the list of files in the folder above your home
[19:17] <ross_> ahh
[19:18] <andyc> .. is the directory above, . is the current directory
[19:18] <andyc> hence if you do ls -a there will always be a . and a ..
[19:20] <ross_> wait...I don't understand. Why would there always be a . and ..
[19:20] <ross_> ?
[19:20] <DJones> Phew, finally got my server up and running again, faulty power supply caused shutdown, take hdd out into chassis of another machine of the same model, beep, beep, beep, go away to think about it, realise that there's no memory in the machine...Doh!
[19:21] <andyc> So you can do things like `cp * ..`
[19:21] <andyc> to move all files to the directory above
[19:22] <DJones> Now to build a new replacement server with sata drives & also rebuild a laptop for my father-in-law
[19:23] <andyc> Or you could do `cp /mnt/disk/somefile .` to copy a file from somewhere to your current directory
[19:24] <andyc> 20:21, I meant copy not move...
[19:25] <ross_> hmm I'm trying to copy a file from my Documents folder into a folder in my home directory
[19:26] <ross_> first  I typed cp ~/Documents/random.txt but it doesn't recognise the command
[19:26] <andyc> you need a destination
[19:26] <ross_> what's a destination?
[19:26] <ross_> ohhhhh
[19:26] <ross_> but wait
[19:26] <andyc> `cp ~/Documents/random.txt ~/whereyouwanttoputthefile`
[19:26] <ross_> ah
[19:27] <AlanBell> ross_: this is what . is handy for :)
[19:27] <ross_> See I thought because I was in ~/unixstuff it would copy anyway
[19:27] <andyc> Yes - you don't need to type lots :)
[19:27] <AlanBell> `cp ~/Documents/random.txt .` copies it to "here" wherever you may be
[19:27] <ross_> :O oh cool
[19:27] <andyc> Or if you are in ~/unixstuff, you could `cp ../Documents/random.txt .`
[19:28] <ross_> because the . represents the current directory, correct?
[19:28] <andyc> Yes
[19:29] <ross_> and the .. reprents the home directory
[19:29] <ross_> Difficult to grasp at first
[19:29] <AlanBell> no, .. is just one above where you are
[19:30] <andyc> And because you are in ~/unixstuff, the .. represents ~ (The folder above ~/Documents), so you can `cp ../Documents/random.xtx .` which means get the file random.txt from the directory Documents from the folder above and copy it in my current directory
[19:30] <ross_> right so if I was in Documents .. would take me to my ross(home) folder
[19:30] <ross_> right
[19:30] <andyc> Agh, I mistyped that - I mean (The folder above ~/unixstuff)
[19:30] <andyc> yes
[19:44] <andyc> Why do GIDs change with new ubuntu versions?
[19:46] <esteeven> good evening. I have a fresh install of 11.10 but there are no tty consoles. Are they disabled by default?
[19:47] <ross_> clear
[19:49] <ross_> so I'm typing grep -v science science.txt but I am not sure what it's doing
[19:49] <AlanBell> esteeven: no, they should be there
[19:49] <esteeven> AlanBell> Hmmmm. I thought so. They are not.
[19:49] <AlanBell> ross_: it is looking for the word "science" in the file called science.txt
[19:50] <ross_> what does the -v mean
[19:50] <ross_> ?
[19:50] <ross_> any ideas
[19:50] <AlanBell> esteeven: ctrl+alt+f1 works for me, ctrl+alt+f7 brings me back
[19:50] <AlanBell> ross_: try "man grep"
[19:51] <esteeven> AlanBell> :) not for me........not yet.
[19:51] <ross_> ooo interesting
[19:51] <AlanBell> ross_: ah, it does the opposite of what I said :)
[19:52] <ross_> Yeah I don;t understand what it is actually saying
[19:52] <AlanBell> it should return all the lines from the file that don't contain "science"
[19:53] <ross_> see those were words I can understand
[19:54] <AlanBell> Invert the sense of matching, to select non-matching lines.  (-v is specified by POSIX.)
[19:54] <AlanBell> yeah, that is a bit cryptic
[19:54] <AlanBell> the manual pages tend to use rather precise language
[19:55] <esteeven> AlanBell> I suspect that it may be that I installed from a beta. I'll get a torrent and try again :)
[19:56] <andyc> Can I change the system monospace font in unity?
[19:57] <ross_> ah interesting
[19:57] <ross_> Once I typed cat then wrote a few words before pressing ctrl D it copies what I say
[19:58] <ross_> I'm reading about redirecting the output
[20:09] <ross_> when I type 'who' it lists three of me...the same and only user on the machine, any ideas why>?
[20:12] <andyc> How many terminals do you have open?
[20:12] <^aDaM> lo
[20:12] <^aDaM> andyc, the andyc ? \o/
[20:12] <^aDaM> I'msure I have said this to you before.
[20:13] <andyc> I doubt I'm "The andyc"
[20:14] <andyc> If you mean "The andyc" who is sat ina  room in manchester on IRC and reading fairly useless tech news on twitter
[20:14] <andyc> Then yes
[20:14] <andyc> tis me
[20:16] <ross_> I have two terminals open
[20:17] <andyc> If you type `who`, it will show username, tty, and a time
[20:17] <ross_> Ohh I see
[20:17] <andyc> if you type tty in one of the terminals
[20:17] <andyc> It will say something like /dev/pts/0
[20:17] <andyc> Which corresponds to one of the rows in the table returned by who
[20:21] <andyc> This new installation of 11.10 HATES coming back from another tty to X
[20:21] <andyc> I get really horrible artifacts/complete blackness on the screen
[20:29] <^aDaM> haha andyc, my bad lol I was thinking more like the Andy C Drum 'n' Bass DJ :D
[20:29] <^aDaM> \o/
[20:34] <daubers> Evening
[20:38] <zleap> good evening
[20:40] <zleap> hello ross_
[21:59] <MooDoo> evening all
[22:02] <Monsterwizard> hi
[22:04] <Pernig> hi MooDoo
[22:04] <MooDoo> hullo :D
[22:04] <MooDoo> still at work, getting tired :)
[22:04] <Pernig> i bet!
[22:11] <MooDoo> still finish at 12 :D
[22:18] <StevenR> hrrm. what's the unity launcher settings app called?
[22:57]  * buzz_ just switched to xfce on ubuntu
[22:59] <buzz_> the global menu on ubuntu was giving me wrist ache. felt like im constantly moving the mouse back and forth
[23:00] <buzz_> (i know it can be removed/disabled but thats 1 of many things)
[23:04] <TheOpenSourcerer> buzz_: I think the global menu sucks. It just demands too much mouse mileage
[23:05] <buzz_> thats my feeling
[23:06] <ali1234> where were you guys 6 months ago?
[23:06] <ali1234> seriously :(
[23:06] <buzz_> i was here
[23:06] <buzz_> moaning about unity
[23:06] <AlanBell> here, saying that the global menu sucks
[23:06] <buzz_> ;-)
[23:06] <TheOpenSourcerer> The nautilus toolbar has now gone. You have to navigate to the top of the screen to do *anything* mouse-driven
[23:07] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unity.png
[23:07] <TheOpenSourcerer> AlanBell:  Feeling better now?
[23:07] <AlanBell> yeah, had a sleep
[23:07] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[23:08] <TheOpenSourcerer> I won the chilli eat-off :-D (Of course)
[23:08] <AlanBell> naturally :)
[23:08] <buzz_> ouch
[23:08] <gord> AlanBell, thats the version of unity from a year ago no?
[23:08] <AlanBell> gord: yes, 2010-10-28
[23:09] <buzz_> still, it illustrates the global menu point
[23:09] <gord> that doesn't happen anymore
[23:09] <AlanBell> gord: yes, there is a clone on monitor 2 now
[23:09] <TheOpenSourcerer> Going to Lincolnshire tomorrow. I'm off to the Catchpoles are emigrating at end of the month.
[23:09] <AlanBell> which sometimes even works
[23:11] <ali1234> AlanBell: um. no?
[23:11] <ali1234> on this machine, the global menu is only on the same monitor as the window
[23:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> What's a decent alternative to Unity? i.e. One that is intuitive and doesn't GET IN MY WAY?
[23:11] <buzz_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/668415 is like the window gadget position thing all over again. . Marks comment isnt relevant anymore since the ubuntu button is in the launcher now, but i assume canonical will have another reason why they wont let users configure things how they like
[23:11] <ali1234> TheOpenSourcerer: there is none. sorry
[23:12] <TheOpenSourcerer> Thought so.
[23:12] <ali1234> the closest to being workable is xfce
[23:12] <AlanBell> ali1234: oh, I see, if a window overlaps then it is on both
[23:12] <TheOpenSourcerer> Will stick on 10.10 for a while yet then.
[23:12] <ali1234> but it is closer to gnome 1.x than gnome 2.x
[23:12] <buzz_> gord, when will ubuntu listen to users? when they have all ditched the main ubuntu desktop environment ? :)
[23:12] <ali1234> which is to say, nothing works right, and it's really ugly and has no good themes
[23:13] <TheOpenSourcerer> "Shiny" isn't the issue...
[23:13] <AlanBell> buzz_: depends what they say and when they say it
[23:13] <ali1234> gnome 2.x with human theme was never shiny
[23:14] <ali1234> it's just the only one that isn't completely horrible
[23:14] <gord> updates always bring slight inconveniences, mountains and molehills i say personally
[23:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> *slight* inconveniences...
[23:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> Hmmm.
[23:14] <ali1234> the other day i finally found a KDE user willing to listen to me explain in detail why KDE is ugly and at the end he was like "damn now i hate KDE"
[23:15] <ali1234> and XFCE is no better at the moment
[23:15] <gord> gnome 3 bugged me, but i just kept using it, reported problems to the desktop team, we distro-patched some stuff to make it slightly nicer. but i never felt like throwing the baby out with the bathwater
[23:16] <ali1234> XFCE looks like KDE after you turn off the glowing gradient transparency effects
[23:16] <buzz_> AlanBell, yeh well, ok, so ubuntu ignore what most users want from their desktop environment then. thats how it looks here from reading bugs and forum posts over the last years (and looking at the numbers of people jumping ship to say linuxmint - just ubuntu with a different ui). ubuntu underneath is "mostly" decent. just the UI stuff is the problem, and complaints have been falling on deaf ears since it all started
[23:16] <TheOpenSourcerer> Gnome2 wasn't broken!
[23:16] <ali1234> it kinda was
[23:16] <ali1234> it was just less broken than everything else
[23:17] <gord> thats what people said about gnome 1 ;)
[23:17] <TheOpenSourcerer> It's not just Ubuntu/Canonical's fault but currently everything seems to suck balls.
[23:17] <AlanBell> unity is looking fixable to me right now
[23:17] <AlanBell> another 6 months and it will be good for the LTS
[23:17] <ali1234> i already gave you my shopping list of how to fix unity
[23:18] <ali1234> none of it will be implemented though
[23:18] <andres-kain> Guys cheer up! look at this job trend: http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=ubuntu+linux%2C+windows7&l=
[23:18] <buzz_> AlanBell, will it still need a middle mouse click ? im sure it will. the whole concept is broken imho
[23:18] <TheOpenSourcerer> AlanBell: *we* don't have the bandwidth to fix it ;-)
[23:18] <AlanBell> fix the alt tab oddness, fix the global menu
[23:18] <AlanBell> TheOpenSourcerer: not my kind of development stuff at all really
[23:18] <AlanBell> fix the apps lens
[23:18] <ali1234> andres-kain: you made a typo: http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=ubuntu+linux%2C+windows+7&l=
[23:19] <andres-kain> OK but now put the y axis in logaritmic scale...
[23:20] <ali1234> it doesn't have log...
[23:20] <andres-kain> ok use relative http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=windows%2C+ubuntu&l=&relative=1
 It's not just Ubuntu/Canonical's fault but currently everything seems to suck balls.  <--- nothing more to say ;)
[23:21] <ali1234> i say we start a protest outside canonical towers
[23:21] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ubuntu 10.10 was/is a great OS. It's reliable, doesn't GET IN MY WAY, and *just works*. Not seen anything to match it since.
[23:21] <ali1234> what do we want?
[23:22] <ali1234> we're not sure!
[23:22] <ali1234> when do we want it?
[23:22] <ali1234> 6 months time!
[23:22] <AlanBell> 12.04
[23:22]  * hamitron is looking forward to 12.04
[23:22] <andres-kain> is it not going to be monthly release after 10.04?
[23:22] <andres-kain> 12.04*
[23:23] <gord> no
[23:24] <TheOpenSourcerer> Oh yeah that would be even better <sarcasm> go down the Mozilla - every 6 week major release - that sucks too (as an extension developer/maintainer).
[23:24]  * hamitron would scrap the 6 monthly releases, and just have LTS.... but encourage PPA

[23:26] <andres-kain> hamitron that sounds good.
[23:26]  * AlanBell expects lively remote participation in the Unity UDS sessions
[23:27] <hamitron> I'd bring back i586 binary too
[23:27] <hamitron> encourage different branches with different GUI
[23:27] <andres-kain> as an extension developer/maintainer quick releases means more work and more jobs: does it not?  companies will not be able to stick to their 5 year old code not maintained.
[23:27] <ali1234> lol
[23:27] <ali1234> you wish
[23:28] <AlanBell> hamitron: I would drop 32 bit binary
[23:28] <hamitron> AlanBell, another option, yes
[23:28] <hamitron> but I'd go for a wide audience
[23:28] <ali1234> hamitron: that's exactly the problem that has got us in this mess
[23:28] <hamitron> my thoughts were more for the project Lubuntu
[23:28] <ali1234> everyone wants to be apple
[23:29] <ali1234> have a wide audience
[23:29] <TheOpenSourcerer> Anyway - time for bed from me on Ubuntu 10.10 (Pidgin).
[23:29] <buzz_> some hardware still needs 32 bit
[23:29] <ali1234> at the expensive of their existing audience
[23:29] <buzz_> plenty im sure
[23:29] <TheOpenSourcerer> ali1234: Not me - I have no interest in being Apple
[23:29] <TheOpenSourcerer> Apple = lockin
[23:29] <hamitron> ali1234, I don't agree
[23:30] <ali1234> the lockin stuff is a smokescreen
[23:30] <TheOpenSourcerer> ali1234: What? for more lockin?
[23:30] <ali1234> apple does not have lockin
[23:30] <hamitron> I see no point in Shuttleworth mentioning Lubuntu, if there is no support for older hardware
[23:30] <ali1234> they don't even charge for their SDK
[23:30] <TheOpenSourcerer> They are far worse than MS for tying customers into their world
[23:31] <TheOpenSourcerer> Oh FFS. nn
[23:32] <hamitron> nn
[23:32] <hamitron> :)
[23:32] <ali1234> the "lockin" is used as a smokescreen by the people who want to position linux in the same market segment
[23:33] <ali1234> "we're just like apple, except without the lockin"
[23:33] <ali1234> "look, see, we have a dock, and a global menu"
[23:33] <ali1234> "but we are OPEN"
[23:34] <andres-kain> "and cheap and work on any computer"
[23:34] <andres-kain> ?
[23:34] <hamitron> tbh, the "free" as-in cheap is what wins me over ;)
[23:35] <ali1234> open source software was never supposed to compete on price
[23:35] <buzz_> i wouldnt pay for ubuntu
[23:35]  * hamitron would
[23:35] <hamitron> £5 maybe
[23:35] <ali1234> i would pay for a distro with 5 years support for gnome 2.x starting today
[23:35] <andres-kain> I am tempted on paying for support. not licence.
[23:36] <andres-kain> debian?
[23:36]  * hamitron was thinking that
[23:36] <ali1234> no, debian doesn't support anything
[23:36] <hamitron> ;)
[23:36] <hamitron> tbh, most distro don't, do they? :/
[23:36] <ali1234> pretty much
[23:37] <hamitron> Redhat maybe? ;)
[23:37] <ali1234> i guess i could switch to red hat
[23:37] <ali1234> but finding rpms for it is a nightmare
[23:38] <hamitron> I've decided to use slackware on my 32 bit comps now
[23:38] <buzz_> i much prefer the debian setup. especially the use of conf.ds for lots of stuff. tidy
[23:38] <ali1234> ok let me rephrase
[23:38] <hamitron> then hoping ubuntu 12.04 for 64 bit
[23:38] <andres-kain> scientific linux
[23:38] <ali1234> i would pay for a debian based distro that commited to maintaining gnome 2.x for 5 years
[23:39] <andres-kain> scientific linux will do the rpm search for you I think.
[23:39] <ali1234> as long as they appeared to have the resources necessary for such a task
[23:39] <buzz_> ali1234, just maintaining or forking/improving ?
[23:39] <ali1234> buzz_: maintaining - in the sense of making sure the latest version of firefox etc works properly with it
[23:39] <ali1234> and all other commonly used software
[23:40] <ali1234> basically a suite of software similar to what you'd find on ubuntu
[23:40] <ali1234> CD
[23:41] <ali1234> and kernel updates
[23:41] <ali1234> you know, the usual distro stuff
[23:41] <buzz_> im happy enough to use xfce on ubuntu for now.
[23:41] <hamitron> why not just aim to have a ubuntu base, with a Gnome 2.x set of packages?
[23:41] <ali1234> sure
[23:42] <buzz_> yeh that should be doable.. gnome2 ppa for ubuntu or so
[23:42] <ali1234> but you have to make sure it works properly
[23:42] <ali1234> you can't just compile it and get my money
[23:42] <ali1234> and you have to keep it working for 5 years
[23:42] <hamitron> could i not compile it, and get your money then? ;)
[23:42] <ali1234> or at least until something better comes along
[23:42] <hamitron> k :/
[23:43] <AlanBell> what is the plan for the gnome2 packages?
[23:44] <AlanBell> !info libgnome2-0
[23:44] <AlanBell> stuff like that in main, is it staying in main?
[23:44] <hamitron> I read in here from someone, it was going to be removed in 11.10
[23:44] <andres-kain> !info stayinginmain?
[23:45] <andres-kain> the computer says no
[23:45] <buzz_> probably as long as it is in debian for ?
[23:45] <buzz_> actually i dunno..
[23:45] <buzz_> i really should read how they pull updates from debian and work out what to remove strip out and replace with their own stuff etc.
[23:46] <ali1234> they sync with debian in every cycle
[23:46] <ali1234> then apply a bunch of patches
[23:47] <ali1234> the patches used to go upstream more
[23:47] <ali1234> then ubuntu developers introduced a load of subtle security bugs into debian
[23:47] <buzz_> yeh but i mean more specifically, because some packages must be removed completely no? or installing them could break stuff
[23:47] <ali1234> now the patches don't go upstream quite so much