[12:35] <Pendulum> TheMuso: when you get up can we have a chat? I have some stuff I want to discuss with you before my call with jono tomorrow :)
[12:36] <Pendulum> general team: Does anyone mind if I set up a blueprint and submit it to UDS?
[19:00] <webczat> hello
[19:01] <webczat> I have some small problems with the ubuntu livecd, for example the fact that when I click "try ubuntu", it logs in, but orca usually does not start, and when it does, I'm always in unity2d, I don't see notifications, and I don't see the battery charge.
[19:11] <maco> is that with having pressed ctrl+s during boot?
[19:11] <webczat> yes
[19:12] <webczat> unless the usbcreator saves some settings but...
[19:18] <webczat> The fact is that I usually don't get orca on login, but I always get it when the system starts and I press ctrl+s, a great feature, actually!
[19:28] <webczat> the fact that ubuntu never updates their packages (or rarely) and livecds is bad, it would be useful to get unity a11y as updates.
[19:29] <webczat> and in livecds
[19:29] <webczat> ubuntu should be more dynamic instead of having a need to wait 6 months for improvements that may introduce new strange bugs
[19:30] <AlanBell> well some stuff does arrive as updates
[19:30] <webczat> some.
[19:30] <AlanBell> won't fix the livecd issue, but I think live USB should be updateable with persistent storage?
[19:30] <AlanBell> I am not totally sure about that
[19:30] <webczat> actually it's a livependrive, not a regular installed system on it
[19:31] <webczat> so probably not, I think it now does not include any persistent storage
[19:31] <webczat> the livecd issuses should be able to be fixed. I think so.
[19:32] <webczat> s/issues
[19:33] <webczat> those issues are pretty major for blind people that are unfamiliar.
[19:37] <webczat> is it actually possible to do something with this?
[19:43] <AlanBell> webczat: well it is possible to remaster a liveCD
[19:44] <AlanBell> but there won't be an official iso update for 11.10, they only do point release updates for the long term support releases
[19:53] <webczat> bad, bad, baaaad
[19:55] <webczat> bad policy I think
[19:56] <webczat> the livecd is representative. if you'll have it and you'll want to test the livecd and it will have all those bugs, you can think that ubuntu is bad and buggy even if you have updates fixing those bugs that you can install later.
[19:56] <maco> it takes a lot of effort to make a new set of images.  usually involves a few days of pulling in tons of volunteers working around the clock to get them all tested for all test cases
[19:57] <webczat> maybe. but I still think I'm pretty right
[19:57] <maco> id rather we just get things working right to start with
[19:58] <webczat> no one tested all possibilities for accessibility, unless the problem with orca not starting is specific to my laptop
[19:58] <AlanBell> there are daily live CDs of the development release
[19:58] <maco> pulling people off of the devel version to spend 72 hours trying to re-roll the already-stable version certainly wont be helping the next devel version be an improvement
[19:59] <webczat> yeah. first we should get things right.
[19:59] <webczat> but that doesn't mean it would take 6 months.
[20:00] <AlanBell> in the Precise Pangolin cycle I am hoping that it will be in better shape for testing more of the time. In Oneiric a lot of the time nothing at all would work for me.
[20:01] <maco> i was supposed to get the kubuntu installer to auto-configure a11y for people installing with it, but the kubuntu installer couldnt even install until around beta
[23:24] <Fudge> maco  accessible with orca, the kubuntu?
[23:25] <maco> somewhat
[23:26] <maco> any kde widget that's heavily based on a qt one (or any straight up qt widgets) should work
[23:26] <maco> but custom widgets might not
[23:26] <Fudge> thats interesting
[23:27] <maco> for example, Arora (web browser) didnt work last time i tried
[23:27] <maco> or Konqueror...one of those
[23:27] <Fudge> i guess normal gtk apps that orca users are used to would though
[23:27] <maco> Qt's built-in accessibility stuff exists. KDE widgets that are just Qt-widgets-with-a-couple-extra-API-calls will work as though they were the Qt widgets
[23:27] <Fudge> does skype?
[23:27] <maco> yes
[23:27] <maco> yes
[23:28] <Fudge> impressive
[23:28] <maco> there's an at-spi bridge to make the Qt accessibility stuff work with Orca, and apparently its pretty functional at this point
[23:28] <maco> skype isn;t 100% there, but ive had reports that its good enough
[23:28] <Fudge> ive been following it and did read about skype functionality but didnt realise all the bridge stuff made it into oneiric
[23:28] <maco> there are a few bugs with it in the buddy list, iirc
[23:28] <Fudge> better than, inaccessible!
[23:29] <maco> if Unity-2D is working in oneiric, then the bridge is there. Unity-2D is Qt
[23:37] <TheMuso> Yes the bridge is in Oneiric.
[23:38] <TheMuso> Things on the whole are likely going to be better in Precise because QT 4.8 is more likely going to be used, which has more important fixes that couldn't be backported to 4.7.
[23:42] <Fudge> whats in oneiric, 4.8?
[23:42] <TheMuso> 4.7.
[23:49] <Fudge> is 4.8 being pushed to the a11y ppa
[23:54] <TheMuso> No not so far as I know.
[23:56] <TheMuso> QT is one of those pieces that has a lot of patches in Ubuntu for various integration bits as well as other misc fixes. Updating to a new upstream version of something as major as QT is a lot of work.
[23:57] <TheMuso> So since Unity 2d works well enough atm, there is no real need for QT 4.8 in any oneiric PPAs.
[23:57] <TheMuso> QT 4.8 certainly won't make anything in unity 2d any more accessible than it is now,