[00:06] <Fudge> :D
[00:38] <maco> updating Qt would likely mean recompiling ALL of kde as well
[00:40] <TheMuso> Yup.
[01:00] <elky> maco, boop
[01:00] <maco> yay thanks
[01:01] <elky> why it not letting me op you up? :-/
[01:01] <elky> oh... -ChanServ- #ubuntu-accessibility has the SECURE option enabled, and maco does not have appropriate access.
[01:01] <elky> yummy
[01:02] <maco> so um maybe i have a redirect setup now?
[01:03] <maco> nope. test account did not get redirected
[01:03] <elky> did you set it to invite only?
[01:04] <test2> ah HA!
[01:04] <test2> yay :)
[01:04] <elky> reading aaaall the instructions helps ;)
[01:05] <maco> if it doesnt do squat without the other flag, why doesnt it imply the other flag?
[01:06] <elky> maco, ask the freenode developers
[01:06] <elky> also, bans count afaik
[01:06] <elky> also, registered-user-required would count
[01:07] <elky> +f iirc basically means "forward if you're not special enough to join"
[01:07] <elky> which is why you yourself will still be able to join it, because you're considered special for that channel
[01:07] <maco> ok
[01:08] <maco> annalee: #ubuntu-a11y now redirects here for all your dyslexic needs
[06:17] <AlanBell> yay, good idea, thanks maco and elky 
[06:20] <elky> welcome.
[06:25] <AlanBell> I can't see onboard in the -proposed updates TheMuso 
[06:26] <AlanBell> ah, possibly not built yet
[06:33] <TheMuso> Very possibly, yes.
[07:47] <AlanBell> hmm, not keen on the lack of a window top bar now, makes it harder to drag it about
[07:48] <AlanBell> and no, "holding down alt" and dragging isn't a suitable workaround for an onscreen keyboard
[07:48] <AlanBell> and in scanning mode return is mapped to "e"
[10:21] <Pendulum> apinheiro: do you have time for a quick PM?
[10:51] <apinheiro> Pendulum, hi, sorry I was afk
[10:51] <apinheiro> quick PM?
[11:00] <fregl> TheMuso: I have kde apps crashing in a kde session because of qt-at-spi though. From that perspective Qt 4.8 would be nice since there were many crash fixes.
[11:00] <fregl> does anyone know where QT_ACCESSIBILITY=1 becomes exported in (k)ubuntu?
[11:01] <TheMuso> fregl: If you have at-spi2-core installed, it should be set in /etc/X11/XSession.d
[11:01] <TheMuso> But it uses gsettings to check whether GNOME a11y is enabled.
[11:01] <fregl> TheMuso: thanks
[11:01] <fregl> ah, that is why I have it and others don't
[11:02] <TheMuso> Once we have something thats more cross-platform, things will be different for sure.
[11:02] <TheMuso> But the primary use case was unity-2d.
[11:02] <TheMuso> s/was/is/
[11:03] <fregl> TheMuso: thanks a lot for the explanation. that explains why others should not be affected. fine :)
[12:36] <AlanBell> Bug #877385
[12:36] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 877385 in onboard "scanning layout has return mapped to "e"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/877385
[12:36] <AlanBell> can someone try to confirm that one please
[13:01] <webczat> hello
[13:01] <webczat> What about things we were talking about? I was thrown out by the school's intenet.
[13:04] <AlanBell> hi webczat 
[13:23] <webczat> Are there some small news?
[13:37] <AlanBell> webczat: I was looking at the stuff about local respins of Ubuntu
[13:38] <AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricOcelot/LocalizedImagesRollout
[13:38] <AlanBell> I am thinking of doing an en_GB respin, which would be updated with fixes
[13:41] <webczat> good idea, but they aren't so easily available. are there any accessibility updates on ubuntu now?
[13:44] <AlanBell> some in -proposed today relating to the onscreen keyboard, main visual one I am waiting for is orca starting on lightdm
[13:45] <webczat> I'm not sure where is the bug about orca not speaking text in gedit until alt+tab and thunderbird crashing.
[13:47] <webczat> and is there any chance patches for unity a11y will be added as updates?
[13:49] <AlanBell> I don't know if the stuff for unity in the PPA will make it as an update in Oneiric
[13:49] <AlanBell> I think it should, but I don't understand the risks of the change
[13:49] <webczat> it's a serious problem for blind people, actually.
[13:50] <AlanBell> I do agree totally, just not my decision to make
[13:51] <AlanBell> I am also hoping that Precise will be installable and useable early in the cycle so we can test it properly and report and fix loads of small bugs
[13:51] <webczat> I know. I actually think that the policy about "everything is usually the same version until the next ubuntu release" could be problematic
[13:51] <webczat> in general
[13:52] <AlanBell> there are only a few exceptions, like Firefox and LibreOffice
[13:52] <webczat> yes.
[13:52] <webczat> hmm... java should get updated, java-access-bridge should get replaced to jaw, mono should get updated... argh
[13:53] <AlanBell> those things I think probably should stay stable
[13:53] <AlanBell> because they have stuff on top of them
[13:54] <webczat> AlanBell: mono could stay. java should not because it won't make much difference for problams. jaw vs jab is serious because jab does not work at all
[13:54] <webczat> s/programs
[13:54] <webczat> openjdk-7 shoult be at least added as an alternative
[13:55] <AlanBell> yeah, things should be pretty newish at time of release
[13:56] <webczat> it sometimes annoys me, especially if it is accessibility
[14:54] <webczat> errrm how do you enter libreoffice's menu bar?
[14:55] <webczat> I mean the unity
[15:02] <AlanBell> F10 sometimes
[15:02] <webczat> it enters indicators only in the libreoffice case, unless I'm wrong?
[15:03] <AlanBell> I will check in a few minutes
[15:36] <webczat> ...?
[15:37] <webczat> I needed to press alt+f to enter the menu
[15:48] <AlanBell> webczat: there is a package lo-menubar which does libre office global menu integration
[15:48] <AlanBell> I have *no* idea why it isn't installed by default
[15:49] <AlanBell> that said, it doesn't appear to work for me right now
[15:50] <AlanBell> ah, second restart of libreoffice and the extension works
[19:27] <JanC> AlanBell: the reason that lo-menubar isn't installed by default is that it's not exactly bug-free  ;)
[19:29]  * JanC wished there would be an option to only use the "global menu" for maximized applications...
[19:42] <AlanBell> me too
[19:43] <AlanBell> don't like it, but the inconsistency with Libreoffice is odd
[19:44] <SeaJay> Are there any good overviews of Unity or Unity 2D out there? Especially something focused on keyboard access.
[19:45] <SeaJay> I'm seeing a lot of blind users giving Unity a try, like myself, but we could use a good overview of the desktop and how it works. Something more than a list of keyboard short cuts.
[19:46] <SeaJay> The overview wouldn't have to be geared towards a blind user, but maybe something for the keyboard short cut wanting developer would be good.
[20:55] <AlanBell> SeaJay: I tried, help me script a better one
[20:59] <AlanBell> SeaJay: http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/oneiric-ocelot/
[21:16] <SeaJay1> Thanks Alan! That's a good page, and I see the link to the keyboard shortcuts. Are there also supposed to be some audio/video overviews of Unity?
[21:18] <SeaJay1> AlanBell: If so, I've not been able to find them or play them under Orca. Maybe I should try under Windows.
[21:19] <AlanBell> oh, bother, I was going to put the direct links to the videos in
[21:19] <Pendulum> oh, right, I suppose I should say that here, too
[21:19] <Pendulum> I really want to see if we can create a movement for "Accessibility from the Start"
[21:19] <AlanBell> there are some embedded blip.tv videos in that, I will dig out the .ogv links
[21:20] <SeaJay1> AlanBell: OK, great, that may help and be what we're looking for.
[21:21] <AlanBell> http://blip.tv/file/get/Alanbell-UsingUbuntu1110WithOrca170.ogv 
[21:21] <AlanBell> http://blip.tv/file/get/Alanbell-Ubuntu1110EyesFreeInstall602.ogv 
[21:22] <SeaJay1> OK, thanks AlanBell. I can't look at them now, but maybe in a bit.
[21:23] <maco> Pendulum++
[21:23] <maco> i think tacking on accessibility later to an inaccessible design is like trying to tack security onto an insecurely designed system. look how well that security bit worked for Microsoft and DOS!
[21:31] <Pendulum> TheMuso: just so you know, my "call" with jono has turned into a meeting in #ubuntu-community-team
[21:33] <TheMuso> Pendulum: ah ok, is that on now?
[21:33] <maco> its just ending
[21:33] <TheMuso> oh ok.
[21:34] <AlanBell> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/10/18/%23ubuntu-community-team.html  <- logs will be here in 30 minutes
[21:34] <maco> TheMuso: something i tried asking jono since i thought youd be asleep because ....well, you're in australia, and i'm awake... is whether david henningson (or whatever his face is) 's presence has freed up some of your allocated-to-audio time to be allocated to a11y 
[21:34] <maco> (he didnt know)
[21:35] <maco> since i know you get stretched every which way :)
[21:35] <TheMuso> It has a little, but audio is still one of my core responsibilities, so I have to give time to that beyond just helping with package uploads.
[21:52] <maco> TheMuso: btw jono says plenaries are full-up 
[21:52] <maco> so "how to make your app's accessibility not suck" would have to be either a lightning talk or session
[21:52] <TheMuso> Ah ok.
[21:52] <TheMuso> Maybe for UDS Q then, will give me more time to prepare.
[21:53] <maco> and if a session, scheduled for not-when-a-unity-session-is-going-on
[21:53] <TheMuso> Right, I won't worry about a session, they ary should be for talking about whats going on in P.
[21:54] <maco> ok
[21:54] <maco> well maybe we can at least get dx and desktop folks dragged into the a11y sessions that will be happening
[21:55] <maco> fregl: any chance you're coming to UDS?
[21:55] <maco> fregl: also, any links to docs i should read for how to make kde apps be more happier?
[21:56] <TheMuso> Wonderful engrish there.
[21:56] <TheMuso> :p
[22:00] <maco> more happier. its like how bestest is better than best!
[22:00] <TheMuso> heh
[22:15] <AlanBell> in the universal access preferences, hearing tab there is a thing to turn on visual alerts and a test flash button
[22:15] <AlanBell> does it work for you?
[22:16] <AlanBell> I was sure it did, but right now it does nothing for me
[22:28] <TheMuso> AlanBell: I wonder whether it requires something 3D/Clutter ish.
[22:28] <TheMuso> I know compiz has a plugin that does something similar.
[22:28] <TheMuso> But thats for the bell only I think.
[22:28] <AlanBell> ah, maybe it works in unity2d
[22:30] <AlanBell> ok, in unity2d there is a rather pathetic window title bar effect
[22:30] <TheMuso> heh right.
[23:06] <SeaJay> AlanBell: The first video link you gave me doesn't seem to be complete. It seemed to stop after the log on screen was described. The last thing I heard was that there was a volume and power icon on the screen and then nothing.
[23:07] <SeaJay> AlanBell: I'll give it another go, but I'm listening to the second video now, on the install process. This one seems to be complete, but I'm not quite at the end yet.
[23:18] <SeaJay> AlanBell: Yep, that first video ends for me after you say volume button and power indicator while describing the log on screen.