[00:43] <anshrpr1> cmake command failed while configuring touchlib on ubuntu 11.10. Following this tutorial: http://theworm.tw/2011/04/2-how-to-install-touchlib-on-linux/  Here is the generated error: http://pastebin.com/dazLtWX7
[00:46] <maco> bkerensa: UDS for jono is work :P  My explanation for not going to the last UDS was "you think I'm gonna take time off of work to go do work??"
[00:46] <bkerensa> Yeah I was surprised jono didnt show up to the biggest party at OSCON
[00:47] <bkerensa> guess he was tired
[00:47] <bkerensa> :D
[00:49] <akgraner> jcastro, ok UWN is published - do you want me to write the summary for Open Week Day one or are you covering that?
[00:49] <jcastro> I was just going to do it tomorrow
[00:50] <akgraner> ahh ok :-) then I won't worry about it - If you put it on your blog let me know I'll cross post it everywhere
[01:01] <akgraner> jcastro, the calendars have all been updated to reflect today's changes in the schedule I added you as a helper to Rick's session as well
[01:11] <jono> akgraner, I already made a bunch of changes to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity
[01:11] <jono> I also created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/CommunityLeaders
[01:11] <akgraner> oh cool
[01:11]  * akgraner looks
[01:12] <akgraner> jono,  that's really cool
[01:14] <jono> just fixing bits up here and there
[01:14] <jono> going to grab dinner
[01:14] <jono> back soon
[01:15] <akgraner> enjoy!
[01:15] <jono> actually, gonna blog it first
[01:15] <jono> and then will eat :-)
[01:31] <jono> alrighty
[01:31] <jono> http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/10/18/documenting-great-ubuntu-community-best-practice/
[01:31] <jono> getting food, back later
[01:41] <akgraner> and your post has been promoted
[01:52] <akgraner> Ok I hate to admit I don't know this but do the release notes say what's new in each release?
[01:52] <akgraner> suddenly I find myself needing to read them
[01:53] <akgraner> I'm looking for the best place to find all the changes from Natty to and will be included in 12.04
[01:53] <jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricOcelot/ReleaseNotes
[01:53] <akgraner> jcastro, thank you!
[06:59] <dholbach> good morning
[07:00] <bkerensa> dholbach: Good Morning
[07:00] <bkerensa> :D
[07:00] <dholbach> hi bkerensa
[07:02] <bkerensa> Portland, OR, United States	 10/17/2011	 6:57 P.M.	Destination Scan
[07:02] <bkerensa> =o
[07:02] <bkerensa> Release Party shirts :)
[07:47] <kim0> Mornings
[07:51] <dholbach> GRRRRRRRR, compiz focus
[08:28] <czajkowski> alloha
[08:38] <czajkowski> dholbach: glad you've issues with compiz also and not just us mer regular users :p
[08:56] <dpm> dholbach, kim0, thanks a lot for filling up the info for the new community page on ubuntu.com
[08:56] <dpm> I've got a couple of extra questions:
[08:56] <dholbach> de nada
[08:57]  * dpm hugs dholbach
[08:58]  * dholbach hugs dpm back
[08:59]  * kim0 joins the hug fest 
[09:00]  * dpm hugs kim0 too!
[09:00] <kim0> hehe
[09:01] <dpm> kim0, you added a link to the juju docs as a call to action. That brings people to a long doc page that might be a bit confusing to newcomers. Do you think we could find a better call to action? There are some good ones on cloud.ubuntu.com: "Discover the Ubuntu cloud", "Join the community", etc. Which one of those do you think we should pick as the main CTA?
[09:01] <dpm> or just direct people to cloud.ubuntu.com?
[09:02] <kim0> thinking about it
[09:03] <dpm> dholbach, additionally to that page, we're probably going to have a longer one with links to all the ways to get involved in each area. Apart from the packaging guide, can you think of other secondary resources to point people who want to get involved with Ubuntu to? E.g. MOTU, REVU, etc...
[09:04] <kim0> dpm: let's add https://juju.ubuntu.com/docs/write-charm.html http://cloud.ubuntu.com/developer/ https://bugs.launchpad.net/server-papercuts http://cloud.ubuntu.com/
[09:06] <dpm> kim0, and as per the main CTA, which one should we pick? "Get involved in the cloud" -> cloud.u.c? Does that sound sensible?
[09:07] <kim0> dpm: it's hard to pick one .. the highest priority is for the community to write charms, which is why I listed that one first .. if you don't think a docs page works, you can use the second link then
[09:11] <dpm> kim0, ah, I see. My main concern with that one is that it's a very detailed docs page which assumes previous knowledge of the technologies. I think it might be better in terms of UX to send people to a landing page which explains the overall picture more gently rather than going straight to in-depth technical docs.
[09:11] <dholbach> dpm, the packaging guide is probably the most important doc as it explains all the other bits and pieces
[09:11] <kim0> dpm: agreed yes .. that page doesn't exist today though, it is definitely planned for the next cycle though
[09:12] <dpm> dholbach, yeah, I listed that one as the main CTA, I'm wondering about other secondary resources, unless you think we should only list the Packaging Guide
[09:13] <dpm> kim0, we can point people to the portal and then perhaps you can have a prominent link to "Write a charm" in the portal itself?
[09:13] <dholbach> dpm, I'll think about it
[09:13] <dpm> thanks dholbach
[09:13] <kim0> dpm: Sure that works
[09:13] <dpm> thanks kim0!
[09:14] <dpm> to be clear: the main page will most probably have just one CTA for each area of involvement. The other links will be on a secondary page
[09:25] <dpm> listing community teams, off the top of my head I can think of: developers, cloud, translators, testing, app developers, documentation, artwork, beginners, accessibility, news, forums, IRC, women. Can anyone think of any active team I might have missed?
[09:26] <nigelb> clasroom maybe?
[09:26] <nigelb> *classroom
[09:26] <nigelb> There's also community web developers
[09:26] <dpm> where do they hang out? Do they have a space in the wiki as well?
[09:27] <nigelb> We hang out in #ubuntu-website
[09:27] <nigelb> No Wiki page yet though.
[09:27] <nigelb> https://launchpad.net/~community-web-developers
[09:27] <Pendulum> is Ubuntu Youth active?
[09:28] <nigelb> Hrm, not sure.
[09:32] <dpm> Pendulum, which are the main resources to get involved in the ally team?
[09:34] <Pendulum> #ubuntu-accessibility, ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com , https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team (more specifically https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/GettingInvolved )
[09:39] <dpm> excellent, that's exactly what I was after, thanks Pendulum!
[09:41] <dpm> anyone else from any of these teams "documentation, artwork, beginners, accessibility, news, forums, IRC, women, classroom, web developers" who'd like to list the main resources? (and if possible to say which one corresponds to the main call to action to get involved?)
[10:15] <dholbach> brb
[12:38]  * kim0 rebooting into live cd 
[12:59] <akgraner> I am so time zone challenged today :-(
[13:03] <jcastro> akgraner: working on the summary now
[13:03] <akgraner> jcastro, awesome
[13:03] <akgraner> :-)
[13:10] <jcastro> akgraner: do we start in an hour or 2 hours?
[13:10]  * jcastro spaces out
[13:10] <akgraner> in an hour
[13:10] <jcastro> update done
[13:10] <jcastro> trello UPDATED
[13:10] <akgraner> sweet!
[13:11] <akgraner> I <3 trello :-)  I think I found a new best friend (oh that's just sad I need a life)
[13:11] <akgraner> jcastro, crossposting it now
[13:21] <akgraner> jcastro - ok cross-posted, dented, tweeted, and whatever else I could think to do with it :-)
[13:22] <akgraner> I'll be afk for much of the time today about to head to the dentist to get them to fix my tooth they broke :-)  should be a fun morning
[14:55] <jono> community team meeting in 5 in #ubuntu-meeting
[14:55] <jono> jcastro, kim0, dholbach, dpm ^
[14:55] <dholbach> in an IRC session right now, sorry
[14:55] <dholbach> dpm has my notes
[14:55] <jcastro> I'm in!
[14:56] <jcastro> you can count me in!
[14:56] <dpm> jono, I'm there too now!
[14:56] <kim0> same for me
[14:56] <jcastro> oh, no G+?
[14:56] <jono> jcastro, do you read your email? lol
[14:56] <jcastro> yeah
[14:56] <jono> jcastro, we are doing them on IRC now
[14:56] <jcastro> I just didn't think we were doing that
[14:56] <jcastro> ok
[14:57] <jono> :-)
[15:21] <jcastro> kim0: reply to zonker in the email before he forgets about us again!
[15:22] <kim0> jcastro: okie
[15:52] <jono> dpm, firing up G+
[15:53] <popey> now for the _real_ meeting ;)
[15:54] <jcastro> I was going to say, now that the meetings are public, how do we make fun of popey behind his back?
[15:55] <jcastro> j/k we don't do that
[15:55] <jcastro> it's Daviey we make fun of
[15:56] <popey> :D
[16:07] <dholbach> alright my friends - I call it a day
[16:07] <dholbach> see you all tomorrow!
[16:07] <nigelb> g'nite dholbach
[16:07] <popey> o/
[16:07]  * popey hugs dholbach 
[16:08]  * dholbach hugs you all
[16:08] <daker> kim0, are the comments working well ?
[16:09] <kim0> daker: it's working awesome :) thanks a lot
[16:09] <daker> good ツ
[16:27] <jcastro> akgraner: around?
[16:32] <jono> kim0, all set?
[16:33] <kim0> jono: yeah let's
[16:34] <jono> kim0, invite sent
[16:52]  * popey spies spam on http://cloud.ubuntu.com/2011/10/ubuntu-cloud-in-your-pocket-video-demo/
[16:52] <popey> top comment
[16:53] <kim0> popey: How are you doubt akismet :)
[16:53] <kim0> dare*
[16:53] <popey> I can spot them a mile away :D
[16:54] <kim0> hehe
[16:54] <popey> I get hundreds on my blog
[16:54] <kim0> popey: any idea what's the "point" of such comments
[16:55] <popey> increase traffic to their site
[16:55] <popey> note the url
[16:55] <popey> doubly so for ubuntu people syndicated on planet ubuntu
[16:55] <kim0> maybe we should hide that then
[16:55] <popey> meh
[16:55] <popey> just moderate comments
[16:55] <popey> "just"
[16:56] <popey> "Just add that to your daily routine"
[16:56] <kim0> I was getting 100+ daily :)
[16:56]  * kim0 hugs askismet
[16:56] <popey> or conscript community people to do it for you
[16:56]  * popey leaves before getting conscripted
[16:56] <kim0> it's 99% accurate at least
[16:56] <popey> yeah
[16:59] <jcastro> kim0: another way to make it worthless for spammers is to add nofollow links
[16:59] <jcastro> that's how wikipedia does it
[17:01] <bkerensa> akismet is horrible for spam protection
[17:01] <bkerensa> :D
[17:01] <bkerensa> Cloudflare for the win
[17:01] <akgraner> jcastro, just got back
[17:01] <jcastro> akgraner: nm, iz all good
[17:01] <akgraner> k
[17:02] <akgraner> but my tooth is fixed :-)
[17:02] <jcastro> <--- lunchin'
[17:03] <jono> kim0, still there?
[17:07] <bkerensa> Ubuntu Oregon 11.10 Release Party Shirts: http://ubuntuone.com/1rNsX3AhvD0x0OtUJRy6XV
[17:07] <bkerensa> :D
[17:10] <jono> bkerensa, sweet!
[17:11] <bkerensa> jono: I assure you next year the OSCON booth will be up to par ;) MarkDude had only given me one day notice mind you
[17:11] <bkerensa> ;)
[17:11] <jono> bkerensa, I am sure it will rock, brother :-)
[17:15] <akgraner> if you haven't seen cprofitt's post on Ubuntu Leadership here it is it's a great post btw - http://ftbeowulf.wordpress.com/2011/10/18/ubuntu-leadership/
[18:29] <akgraner> jcastro, don't forget tomorrow's sessions kick off at 1300 UTC/0900 EDT :-)
[18:29] <jcastro> oh crap, I forgot, nice looking out!
[18:30] <jcastro> nice trick on the logs btw
[18:30] <jcastro> just doing XX:01
[18:30] <jcastro> instead of making individual pages and all that
[18:30] <jcastro> my god Amber, I think we've got  you working smarter instead of harder! (LOL SPREADSHEETS)
[18:31] <jcastro> jono: idea....
[18:32] <jcastro> normally we schedule the roundtables without blueprints
[18:32] <jcastro> but that leaves a bunch of "rogue" work items and ideas and  crap without a place to live
[18:32] <nigelb> why not have a blueprint this time?
[18:32] <jcastro> I'd actually like to make them blueprints
[18:32] <jcastro> right
[18:32] <nigelb> jcastro: make a blueprint for "rountable" and schedule it for day 1.
[18:32] <nigelb> create a meeting for every other day
[18:32] <nigelb> we can then reuse!
[18:33] <jcastro> what do you mean?
[18:33] <jcastro> it will import the BP right
[18:33] <jcastro> but then that'll only be one session
[18:33] <nigelb> jcastro: yeah. Lets use one BP for each track's rountable.
[18:34] <jcastro> right but how do I do the other 4 sessions?
[18:34] <jcastro> just manually?
[18:34] <nigelb> yeah
[18:37] <AlanBell> wait!
[18:37] <AlanBell> what about one session on multiple days
[18:38] <AlanBell> one meeting in multiple slots even
[18:38] <AlanBell> with one pad URL
[18:39] <jcastro> is that even possible?
[18:41] <akgraner> jcastro, :-P
[18:41] <AlanBell> add a second agenda item, link it to the second slot, and room, but the first meeting
[18:41] <jcastro> ok now I am confused
[18:43] <AlanBell> in /admin/schedule/agenda/ you should be able to add more agenda items
[18:43] <AlanBell> which are the things that tie a meeting to a slot and room
[18:43] <AlanBell> and one meeting can have multiple agenda items
[18:44] <AlanBell> which can make the one meeting turn up every day
[18:51] <AlanBell> did that make sense?
[18:58] <jono> fine with me to make a roundtable BP
[19:00] <jcastro> AlanBell: ok I'll submit the blueprint first
[19:00] <jcastro> and then try that
[19:02] <nigelb> jcastro: you can have same etherpad url's since middle of last DS.
[19:02] <nigelb> jcastro: *UDS
[19:02]  * jcastro nods
[19:02] <nigelb> jcastro: I remember Mike fixing it in the eveeniing :P
[19:38] <nigelb> jcastro: ZOMG!
[19:38] <nigelb> jcastro: ZOMG!
[19:38] <nigelb> jcastro: https://twitter.com/#!/cyanogen/status/126380951939977216
[19:40] <jcastro> nice
[19:41] <nigelb> Though I also did see a tweet from a friend.
[19:41] <nigelb> She wanted to shoot nity dsesigners :P
[19:41] <nigelb> *Unity
[19:42] <Pici> I just keep telling people that had Unity not existed, they would have been complaining about GNOME 3.
[19:42] <nigelb> That's an iinteresting perspective.
[19:42] <mhall119> Pici: yeah, but if Gnome 3 hadn't existed, they'd still be complaining about KDE 4
[19:43] <nigelb> People use KDE?
[19:43] <Pici> 'people'
[19:43] <AlanBell> chickens
[19:47] <jono> czajkowski, LoCo Council meeting in 13?
[19:59] <jono> jcastro, around?
[20:03] <jcastro> jono: yo
[20:03] <jcastro> jono: hey while I have you here, how about tomorrow post-lunch for you for 12.04 review for me?
[20:04] <jono> jcastro, bring it
[20:04] <jono> jcastro, I need a quick call with you now if that's cool
[20:05] <jcastro> sures
[20:05] <jcastro> G+ me!
[20:05] <jono> jcastro, G+
[20:05] <jono> one sec
[20:06] <akgraner> whoa this *is* a day 'o meetings
[20:12] <bkerensa> Darn I can't find a Jono sticker on Openstickers.com
[20:12] <bkerensa> :P
[20:41] <akgraner> jcastro, the mi team is up for reapproval now in -meeting :-)
[20:48] <jcastro> It's too cold in michigan
[20:48] <jcastro> let them rot. (j/k)
[20:48] <akgraner> hahaha
[20:48] <akgraner> you crack me up
[20:54]  * akgraner is dreaming up things to add to jcastro 's todo list muahahaha
[20:59] <akgraner> I <3 those trello boards :-)
[20:59] <technoviking> jono & jcastro: can we chat sometime Power Users and Ubuntu Tweak, and getting traction with that
[20:59] <jono> technoviking, totally
[20:59] <jono> technoviking, can we chat tomorrow?
[20:59] <jono> Pendulum, one sec, just going to put a meeting in with technoviking
[21:00] <jono> Pendulum, would you be cool for us to have our meeting here on IRC
[21:00] <jono> so others can see and participate
[21:00] <jono> I would like to do more meetings on IRC
[21:00] <jono> more transparency :-)
[21:00] <technoviking> technoviking: tomorrow is cool, other that 8:30-9:30am PST
[21:01] <jono> technoviking, let me check the times I have
[21:01] <Pendulum> jono: we can try, I'm not sure how much my things are generally useful or not
[21:01] <jono> Pendulum, we can discuss the agenda items
[21:01] <jono> one sec Pendulum, just wrapping up my meeting with technoviking
[21:02] <Pendulum> ok
[21:02] <jono> technoviking, does 4pm Pac tomorrow work?
[21:02]  * jono sees he is in meetings for nearly the entire day
[21:03] <technoviking> jono: my time getting off work,
[21:03] <jono> technoviking, 12.30 Pac work?
[21:03] <jono> for 30m?
[21:03] <technoviking> jono: sounds good
[21:03] <jono> awesome, technoviking can we discuss it here?
[21:04] <technoviking> fine with me
[21:04] <jono> awesome
[21:04] <jono> thanks for your patience Pendulum
[21:04] <Pendulum> np
[21:04] <jono> so lets kick off with a11y concerns in Precise
[21:04] <jono> what are your thoughts?
[21:04] <Pendulum> I've poked a couple people so they know it's going on in case they want to chime in
[21:05] <Pendulum> I think there are a couple major concerns
[21:05] <Pendulum> one is pretty specific: there's no screen magnification in Unity 2D at all and the one in 3D (Compiz eZoom) can't interact with the Unity layer (so launcher, dash, etc.)
[21:05] <jono> shoot
[21:06] <jono> right
[21:06] <Pendulum> the eZoom one has been flagged since Natty, but nothing's happened. So far it's listed as a wishlist
[21:06] <jono> Pendulum, ahhh so there is a bug filed for it
[21:06] <Pendulum> meanwhile we have users saying they can no longer use Ubuntu because of the lack of screen magnification
[21:06] <Pendulum> there are 3 bugs covering the entire issue
[21:06] <Pendulum> let me pull numbers for you
[21:07] <Pendulum> bug 781529 has the overview
[21:07] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 781529 in unity "Assistive Technology Magnifiers unusable with Unity" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/781529
[21:07] <jono> thanks Pendulum
[21:07] <Pendulum> but 762699 is specific to eZoom
[21:08] <jono> Pendulum, have you had any input from the Ubuntu Engineering Management team on these bugs?
[21:08] <Pendulum> bug 762699
[21:08] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 762699 in unity "Unity launcher and panel are not zoomable with Enhanced Zoom Desktop" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/762699
[21:08] <Pendulum> my impression on the eZoom one is that it's a "we didn't have time to fix it", but I do know that it's a semi-complicated issue to fix
[21:09] <jono> did you get any specific responses to these bugs?
[21:09] <jono> just want to get an idea of communication so far
[21:10] <Pendulum> I've been compiling a list of everything (I didn't know about one of the bugs until this morning) so that I can get a stronger explanation of what's going on before I specifically talk to people
[21:10] <jono> gotcha
[21:10] <Pendulum> so far I've only talked to Luke about it (who is who told me that there was someone who had an idea for how to fix it, but didn't have time
[21:10] <jono> I think this makes sense
[21:10] <jono> if you could present a list of outstanding a11y deficiencies that we need to resolve in 12.04
[21:11] <jono> Jason Warner is a good person to liaise with over how much can be resourced by Canonical
[21:11] <jono> if you could present this list as a crisp summary, I think Jason could respond next week to it
[21:11] <jono> he is off work this weekl
[21:11] <jono> would you be happy to do this for us, Pendulum?
[21:11] <Pendulum> I can do that
[21:11] <jono> awesome!
[21:11] <jono> now is a good time to have this conversation as we plan for 12.04
[21:12] <Pendulum> yeah
[21:12] <Pendulum> I know Luke and I are both putting together blueprints for UDS, as well
[21:12] <Pendulum> so hopefully this'll help him get a good foundation for the tech side of thing
[21:12] <Pendulum> *things
[21:13] <jono> awesome
[21:14] <jono> I would recommend you present the list of things to be done to him, and then based on what resources Jason can commit, file blueprints for other elements that need community work too
[21:14] <jono> are there any community developers who would be interested in pursuing these projects?
[21:14] <jono> and resolving those bugs?
[21:15] <Pendulum> tbh, we have struggled to find developers within the community interested in working on a11y
[21:15] <Pendulum> there's maco and AlanBell and that's about it at the moment
[21:15] <jono> what kind of skills do people need to work on that stuff?
[21:15] <Pendulum> strong python and C as far as I can tell. There's a lot of framework that needs to be understood for some of the really integrated work (like the eZoom stuff)
[21:16] <jono> right
[21:16] <maco> jono: non-programmers can help with desktop applications
[21:16] <maco>  if they can sort out Glade
[21:16] <jono> maco, aha gotcha
[21:16] <AlanBell> there would be lots of stuff that is the same effort as translations
[21:16] <jono> it strikes me that having a firm idea of outstanding 12.04 issues could be a good lynchpin to attract new devs
[21:16] <Pendulum> maco: we should go through and figure out what of the important bugs could be fixed with Glade
[21:16] <jono> maybe blogging around a goal of helping 12.04 to being awesomely accessible?
[21:16] <Pendulum> *nods*
[21:17] <maco> Pendulum: any time "it doesnt read the label next to the radio button" comes up, thats easily glade-able
[21:17] <jono> so maybe the summary that you create for Jason could be a good thing to promote publicly too
[21:17] <AlanBell> the important thing is having precise broadly working for most of the time
[21:17] <maco> (ditto s/radio button/checkbox/)
[21:17] <Pendulum> I think the overall other concern with Precise is that we know some of the underlying stuff in Unity is getting rewritten and there's a concern that it'll not only break things as they stand in a11y, but that things won't be done early enough in the cycle for the a11y people to fix the regression bugs
[21:17] <jono> AlanBell, totally agree
[21:17] <jono> Pendulum, what is getting re-written?\
[21:17] <jono> there should be no arch changes
[21:17] <Pendulum> jono: I don't know for sure, but Luke was saying there are some underlying things last night
[21:18] <jono> I talked to Neil Patel last week and things should be basically the same as 11.10
[21:18] <jono> Pendulum, interesting
[21:18] <jono> not sure what he is referring too
[21:18] <Pendulum> okay, I'll see what more I can find out
[21:18] <jono> awesome
[21:18] <jono> Pendulum, when you have your report written, I recommend you mail it to Jason Warner and then copy me in
[21:18] <jono> I can talk with him more about then
[21:18] <Pendulum> one thing I really would like to work on (this is kinda what I'd like to make a rallying cry for a11y) is "Accessibility from the Start"
[21:18] <jono> like I say, he should be back next week
[21:18] <maco> jono: lack of intelligible docs for how ATK stuff works is a bit of a problem for finding more devs
[21:19] <jono> Pendulum, that would be awesome
[21:19] <jono> maco, hmmm good point
[21:19] <jono> maco, is there limited content online?
[21:19] <maco> i muddled my way through the bits i could understand to improve ubiquity a bit, but it really is just muddling
[21:19] <Pendulum> because most cycles we're well into the betas before much if any a11y work can get done
[21:19] <jono> classic Open Source story...great tech..crappy docs :-/
[21:19] <jono> Pendulum, yeah, I think also 12.04 being an LTS will help focus the community
[21:19] <jono> Pendulum, did you get your sponsorship all sorted?
[21:19] <maco> jono: first time i tried to make something better on ubiquity, it took me a goodly amount of googling to find current docs on ATK with some limited code examples and a lot of whooshing over my head :-/
[21:19] <Pendulum> jono: yes, thank you
[21:20] <jono> Pendulum, awesome!
[21:20] <jono> Pendulum, so we can rock it at UDS :-)
[21:20] <maco> i think i bookmarked that page though, so i'll have to dig it up
[21:20] <Pendulum> yes, definitely!
[21:20] <jono> maco, would you be interested in writing some docs of what you discovered?
[21:20] <jono> Pendulum, I get the impression that a strong rallying call with a focus of specific things that need fixing will help get the community interested
[21:21] <maco> jono: so far my hints are "use the bit that lets you set labelled by" and "dont put in a loop that makes the accessible name = the variable name" :P im far from an expert
[21:21] <jono> maybe we can work with other teams to help spread the word? maybe akgraner could help here
[21:21] <Pendulum> *nods*
[21:21] <jono> maco, LOL
[21:21] <akgraner> sure I'd be happy too
[21:21] <jono> maco, reminds me of hacking on gstreamer
[21:21] <jono> akgraner, could be something the leadership team could help the a11y team with?
[21:22] <jono> we need some braveheart style posters with Pendulum on them
[21:22] <akgraner> jono, I can get with Pendulum and we can figure something out I am sure
[21:22] <jono> aweesome
[21:22] <jono> so
[21:23] <jono> the next topic
[21:23] <jono> managing community expectations
[21:23] <jono> Pendulum, what did you mean by that?
[21:23] <jono> (by the way folks, Pendulum mailed me her agenda)
[21:23] <jono> (this is where these topics are coming from)
[21:23] <Pendulum> so one thing that's coming up a lot with users of a11y things is a feeling of not mattering
[21:23] <jono> I can understand their concern
[21:23] <jono> not mattering to whom?
[21:24] <Pendulum> AlanBell and I had a pretty heartbreaking conversation with someone in #ubuntu-accessibility over the weekend
[21:24] <maco> people responsible for making things go :P
[21:24] <Pendulum> in which she flat out asked if anyone at Canonical or in the community actually cared about a11y
[21:24] <Pendulum> because from her perspective, it wasn't a priority
[21:24] <jono> its a tough one
[21:24] <jono> I think everyone cares, we just have limited resources
[21:24] <maco> Pendulum: um, from my perspective it doesnt look like one either....
[21:24]  * maco hides
[21:25] <nigelb> heh
[21:25] <Pendulum> I think a lot of where I get caught up is we claim accessibility is a priority
[21:25] <Pendulum> but we release things that don't back that up
[21:25] <jono> Pendulum, well, it is a priority in Ubuntu, but I agree it is underresourced
[21:26] <jono> the challenge is that when we say "priority" in Ubuntu, that doesn't just relate to Canonical...but to the wider community
[21:26] <jono> I think some see that a11y is not as good as it should be that it is squarely Canonical's fault
[21:26] <jono> which I don't think is fair
[21:26] <jono> as we are a community that Canonical contributes to
[21:27] <Pendulum> I don't think it's fair either
[21:27] <jono> I think everyone does the best they can with their resources
[21:27] <jono> but I do think we could potentially inspire a bigger community
[21:27] <sense> This is again an example of the unclarity of what is Canonicals task and the task of the community. Canonical sees it as something that is also a task of the community, whereas the community has learned to passively look at Canonical's engineering resources.
[21:27] <AlanBell> blame isn't really the issue
[21:28] <jono> AlanBell, not blame, responsibility for fixing the issues
[21:28] <maco> jono: is luke still being pulled in both the a11y and audio directions? or does david henningson (sp?) 's presence mean luke's got more time allocated to a11y now....do you know?
[21:28] <AlanBell> but some of the regressions are a consequence of the design direction (doesn't matter who's direction)
[21:28] <Pendulum> Personally, I don't care where blame should/shouldn't be, but I'm curious about suggestions for how to respond
[21:28] <jono> maco, tbh, I am not sure
[21:28] <jono> that is a good question for Jason Warner
[21:28] <jono> Pendulum, totally agree
[21:29] <Pendulum> The accessibility community is one community where I will never tell users that they need to provide their own fixes because often at the point that there's a problem, they can't use their computers to some degree
[21:29] <AlanBell> some things would be better if accessibility was baked in from the design phase
[21:29] <Pendulum> AlanBell: +1
[21:29] <jono> Pendulum, yeah
[21:30] <AlanBell> stuff like the global menus where everything thinks it is a checkbox
[21:30] <jono> AlanBell, agreed, but I think there were some technical and logisitical reasons why that could happen at the time
[21:30] <jono> but I agree that we should really block on technology if it is doesnt provide good a11y
[21:30] <maco> AlanBell: oh ew, do they all say "checkbox not checked" after every keypress navigating the menus?
[21:30] <jono> which didn't happen before
[21:30] <Pendulum> I think some of it is trying to figure out how to get people thinking about accessibility from the start, but tbh, right now I'm more focused on what to tell the next 5 people who e-mail the list or PM me or show up on IRC saying they're really upset
[21:30] <Pendulum> because I don't want to give platitudes
[21:31] <Pendulum> and that's where I feel like I am at the moment
[21:31] <maco> Pendulum: "no really, we DO care! we just....suck?" :P
[21:31] <jono> Pendulum, my recommendation is we crisply summarize the challenges and then the a11y team and the desktop team work together to try and find solutions
[21:31] <jono> naturally I am here to help
[21:31] <czajkowski> jono: sent apologies to lc last week that i wouldnt be at tonigts meeting, date night with jon, we went to a fawlty towers dinner night
[21:31] <jono> some folks can be resourced from canonical, but some will be community
[21:31] <jono> czajkowski, np
[21:32] <jono> Pendulum, I would love to talk more at UDS about how we set these expectations
[21:32] <maco> jono: luke is talking about duing a plenary at uds on a few steps devs can take to at least get a step up on a11y
[21:32] <jono> and how the a11y team could provide influence to the Canonical teams
[21:32] <maco> ...partly because i nudged a lot
[21:32] <jono> maco, unless his plenary is confirmed, it will be a lightning talk, all plenaries are full
[21:32] <maco> oh
[21:32] <jono> or he could do a session of course
[21:32] <maco> yeah i was suggesting a session, and he said plenary later
[21:33] <jono> I need to head to my next meeting, but Pendulum, do you feel we have some good steps forward?
[21:33] <Pendulum> yeah
[21:33] <maco> i think there's more than enough to fill a session, but i dont know how much can be done as show & tell
[21:33] <sense> The important thing is that the right people will show up at that session.
[21:33] <sense> If the whole desktop team is having a key Unity session at the same time, it is useless.
[21:33] <jono> Pendulum, lets talk more at UDS - also if you can file a blueprint for a11y in 12.04 that would be awesome
[21:34] <jono> thanks everyone for your input!
[21:34] <Pendulum> jono: thank you!
[21:34] <jono> thanks Pendulum!
[21:34] <Pendulum> jono: is Jason Warner on IRC? (just realised I didn't know his IRC nick)
[21:34] <jono> Pendulum, he should be
[21:34] <akgraner> jasoncwarner
[21:34] <jono> but not now, he is on vacation
[21:35] <Pendulum> yeah, just wanted for future reference :)
[21:36] <Martyn> Re :)
[21:37] <Pendulum> Martyn: hmm?
[21:37] <Martyn> RE .. as in "re hello"
[21:38]  * Martyn is knee-deep making Oneiric usb sticks for UDS
[21:38] <Pendulum> Martyn: if you don't watch out we're going to make a strong community member out of you ;-)
[21:38] <Martyn> What?  Never!  *ducks*
[21:38]  * Pendulum hugs Martyn so he can't run :P
[21:39] <Martyn> but yeah .. I've been trying to get the updates into the stick, so that a person's first experience won't be a massive update
[21:39] <Martyn> so far, so good
[21:39] <Martyn> but the stick is "only" 400mb more storage than the install CD would have, so I still have to be a little careful
[21:40] <maco> Martyn: apt-cache clean
[21:44] <jcastro> jono: I just don't get how King Diamond ever had fans
[21:44] <jcastro> it's like, a parody
[21:44] <jono> jcastro, don't speak ill of the awesome
[21:44] <jcastro> it literally sounds like he's torturing cats
[21:44] <jcastro> oh I know, I have it on repeat.
[21:45] <jcastro> i'm just saying ...
[21:45] <jono> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgNTFU0mAtE
[21:45] <jono> :-)
[21:45] <jono> love that tune
[21:46] <jcastro> hah
[21:46] <jcastro> more of the same, love it.
[21:46] <jono> jcastro, want to hear something awesome?
[21:46] <jono> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIxQ2DP6Fmk
[21:46] <jono> one of my current fave bands
[21:46] <jono> crazy heavy death prog
[21:47] <jono> completely unique
[21:47]  * jcastro listens
[21:49] <jcastro> the sound quality on this youtube video sucks
[21:49] <jcastro> but it sounds good
[21:49] <jcastro> (the music itself I mean)
[21:49] <maco> jcastro: you've listened to Primus right? talk about torturing cats....
[21:50] <jcastro> yeah but I can appreciate his playing
[21:50] <jcastro> too bad it's the same song over and over again
[21:51] <jono> jcastro, I saw them live and they were literally as tight as that
[21:51] <jono> they were *AWESOME*
[21:52] <jono> jcastro, check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIqPbZ20EXI
[21:52] <jono> one of my other fave bands :-)
[21:53] <jono> again, totally unique
[21:55] <greg-g> jono only listens to unique bands
[21:55] <maco> greg-g: hipster
[21:55] <jono> greg-g, lol
[21:55] <jcastro> they were doing awesome until they started singing
[21:55] <jcastro> :p
[21:56] <jono> Hipster Olympics - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAO4EVMlpwM
[22:08] <jcastro> jono: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzDmgn-G2FM
[22:08] <jcastro> this is my favorite new song
[22:09] <jono> jcastro,  sounds awesome!
[22:09] <jono> very classic Anthraxy :-)
[22:09] <jcastro> it's pretty awesome
[22:09] <jcastro> yeah
[22:10] <akgraner> jono, jcastro I'm giving an adhoc how to plan ubuntu weeks/days session in -leadership  hopefully we'll get some more helpers with each of the weeks
[22:12] <jono> akgraner, awesome :-)
[22:14] <akgraner> jono, I'm hoping that your team is our (community) go to people if we get stuck organizing  - and that we as a community can take on a bigger role in helping organize these
[22:14] <akgraner> :-)
[22:14] <jcastro> I will be more than happy to just punt them to you akgraner
[22:14] <jcastro> oops, inside voice!
[22:14] <akgraner> hahah
[22:14] <jcastro> akgraner: hey so jills is coming on friday night, and leaving sunday day
[22:14] <jcastro> the weekend before UDS
[22:14] <akgraner> :-)  I think we/me there is one of you to help when needed you know
[22:15] <jcastro> she wants to hang out with you, etc. etc.
[22:15] <akgraner> jcastro, awesome - :-) I'll be by the pool...
[22:15] <jcastro> "hold on hon, I have a spreadsheet for hanging out"
[22:15] <jcastro> j/k
[22:15] <akgraner> :-P
[22:16] <akgraner> jcastro, I am not trying to take away all your fun now
[22:17] <akgraner> I am sure all you guys have way too much fun planning these weeks :-)
[22:18] <jono> akgraner, :-)
[22:19] <akgraner> I just think these weeks are a great way for people who want to know more about the community to find out who does what and take an active roll
[22:19] <akgraner> role
[22:19] <akgraner> dang it - I am so red neck sometimes
[22:20] <akgraner> it's cool talking to developers, both canonical and community, finding out what the goals are for each cycle and how to find people who can teach around those goals etc
[22:20] <akgraner> it's great!
[22:21] <akgraner> I am such an event junkie - I may need an intervention
[22:21] <jcastro> just one?
[22:21] <akgraner> ok I resemble that remark slightly
[22:22] <akgraner> can we put akgraner intervention on the summit schedule (j/k)
[22:23] <akgraner> jcastro, I'll snag the logs and turn them into a how to of sorts that go beyond the checklists - can you review then I can add that and the checklists to BuildingCommunity somewhere
[22:24] <jcastro> sure
[22:24] <akgraner> ok - I'll work on that in a little while - I am about to be disowned if I don't put my computer down for a few :-)  bbiab